View Full Version : Bike shop saddle fit or am I expecting too much
I'm curious to know what normal bike shop procedure is when a customer purchases a saddle and would like to know what you all think about my experience. I recently bought a new saddle from the bike shop where I bought my bike and was fitted to it 4 yrs. ago. When I bought the saddle I specifically asked if they would put it on my bike and I was told sure, no problem. To me this meant they would also make sure the saddle was properly fitted to me on the bike.
So I went in and took my fit chart with me. The employee put it on and used my measurements from the fit chart but did not do any adjustments with me sitting on the saddle. The saddle was way to far back for me so I ended up riding on the nose to get over the pedals. I wasn't to upset because I failed to mention that the old saddle was to wide for me and didn't allow me to sit on it properly.
I went back and the 2nd person said "oh, I can take care of you". She did put the bike on the trainer but I had a hard time convincing her that the saddle needed to go forward so I could get my sitbones on it. She finally agreed to move it forward, wherever I wanted it, and used a block of wood to test my knee alignment. Then I asked if she needed to raise the saddle because we moved it forward. She checked my knee height and said it looked ok to her.
When we were finishing I asked her to write the changes we made on my fit chart and she told me "oh, I don't know how to read these charts or do the measurements, I've only been trained to do what I did for you" she then asked one of the shop's bike fitters to make the new measurements.
The saddle height came out 60 cm vs the 60.75 cm of the original saddle height. The fitter did not say anything about the discrepency and did not offer to check me on my bike. My bad again, I trusted their expertise and didn't check the numbers.
By the time I rode home, 10 miles, my knee was complaining. I can't say for sure the saddle height caused it but the saddle doesn't feel exactly right and now I don't trust that it adjusted correctly.
I'm wondering is this the best a shop can do when putting new saddles on for a customer? Am I expecting too much? When my regular fitter works with me he is very particular about my kops position and saddle height since I'm prone to knee problems. I'm a little bewildered by this experience, it seems so hap hazard to me and adjusting a saddle is that hard to do. This shop is well known and supposed to be good, and I was happy with my fit experience there 4 yrs. ago. I am trying to decide if I should go back a 3rd time or find someone else.
BTW, if I really want to be sure that my saddle position is correct I can pay $85 for a pedal analysis, on top of the $110 I paid for the saddle.
Peter P.
10-03-2009, 04:13 PM
I have an EXTREMELY hard time wrapping my mind around the concept of someone purchasing a saddle then asking the shop to not only install it but essentially perform a fit analysis to ensure the new saddle conforms to your position numbers-FOR FREE, no less.
Yes; you are expecting too much. The most you should expect from the shop is a receipt and "Thankyouhaveaniceday". Otherwise, open your wallet.
So that's their thinking?
I'm not asking for a fit analysis. The bike was fitted very nicely when I bought it. Just the saddle put on properly so I know if it fits me. How can I judge a saddlle if it is too far back, to low, etc. If it doesn't feel good, I will assume it doesn't work and will return it. Shop loses money because I will buy from someone who makes sure I'm fitted to it properly.
Or I will buy online and not support my local LBS.
I think that normal would be as Peter P. said. I don't think that you should assume that your purchase of a saddle includes a fit or for that matter an installation. If you know your fit measurements why don't you raise your saddle and move it forward?
vjp
jam it as far forward as possible and send you on your way. I disagree with the last poster. It only takes a couple minutes to install a saddle and set it up properly. A little good will goes a long way in the retail world. It's too bad that some shops, especially ones selling top end equipment, haven't learned that simple lesson.
The job of a fitter/bike shop/etc is to get you real close. Final adjustments are up to you. I can't tell you how many saddles I've tried over the years. With every one of them it was a matter of getting it close based on various fit measurements that I'd written down. And then riding it and fine tuning it and riding it and fine tuning it some more and riding it and fine tuning it some more until I finally found the sweet spot. Some of them didn't have a sweet spot, but several, over the years, did. There's no way the most expert fitter in the world could have dialed it in better than I could because I knew how it felt on the bike.
I think you're expecting too much, not just in terms of what they owe you when you buy a saddle, but in terms of what anyone but YOU can do actually do to get it in precisely the right place.
Good luck,
-Ray
Because I have a Thompson seat post, it is a PITA to get the saddle level and I can't check my kops position or saddle height accurately by myself.
$85 seems a lot to check fore/aft and saddle height everytime I replace a saddle. Especially when this shop did not charge me for a fitting when I bought the bike.
jam it as far forward as possible and send you on your way. I disagree with the last poster. It only takes a couple minutes to install a saddle and set it up properly. A little good will goes a long way in the retail world. It's too bad that some shops, especially ones selling top end equipment, haven't learned that simple lesson.
SG in Boulder? no, but that's where my last saddle was bought and put on perfectly, no charge. I also bought my Ottrott from them so maybe that's the difference.
I agree, it's a lot less hassle to put the saddle on properly, have a satisfied customer and not have to deal with returns, since this shop does have a saddle return policy.
The job of a fitter/bike shop/etc is to get you real close. Final adjustments are up to you. I can't tell you how many saddles I've tried over the years. With every one of them it was a matter of getting it close based on various fit measurements that I'd written down. And then riding it and fine tuning it and riding it and fine tuning it some more and riding it and fine tuning it some more until I finally found the sweet spot. Some of them didn't have a sweet spot, but several, over the years, did. There's no way the most expert fitter in the world could have dialed it in better than I could because I knew how it felt on the bike.
I think you're expecting too much, not just in terms of what they owe you when you buy a saddle, but in terms of what anyone but YOU can do actually do to get it in precisely the right place.
Good luck,
-Ray
Saddles all all different so how do you know someone is close without ever seeing them on the bike?
caleb
10-03-2009, 04:55 PM
You're expecting too much, and the shop is already going above and beyond to mount your saddle for you free of charge.
Get a set of allen wrenches and start working on your own bike. Your reference to your "regular fitter" indicates to me that you're way over-thinking this thing - you don't need to see a fitter regularly. The fitter gets you close; you do the rest through trial-and-error and little adjustments. It's part of the game.
jlwdm
10-03-2009, 04:58 PM
If you are prone to knee problems and you have a regular fitter that is taking care of your issues I don't know why you would have someone else fit your saddle.
Don't rely on a non-fitter shop employee if you have problems that need to be addressed. Remember there are a lot of different approaches to fitting a bike. And the validity and/or how you use KOPS is a big question in its own right.
If you have someone that is fitting you and it is working - stick with them.
The other side of this is you have to follow Ray's comments. Fit changes as you are in better or worse shape, ride more, are less flexible and so forth. Fit is constantly changing. You need to learn to correctly make measurements yourself and log the measurements. Then tweak the position as needed. If you have a saddle that works it doesn't hurt to stick with it or a similar one by the same company.
If you have real issues get them taken care of by a qualified person with your involvement and not an unqualified person. Your issues are also going to be affected by shoes and cleat placement.
Jeff
SoCalSteve
10-03-2009, 05:04 PM
Because I have a Thompson seat post, it is a PITA to get the saddle level and I can't check my kops position or saddle height accurately by myself.
$85 seems a lot to check fore/aft and saddle height everytime I replace a saddle. Especially when this shop did not charge me for a fitting when I bought the bike.
That is the easiest seatpost of any made to adjust (save the Moots Cinch Post).
As for fitting-adjusting, etc, Ray had it 110% correct. Dont rely on anyone but yourself when it comes to how you fit-sit-feel on a bike. You are the first and last word.
2 choices, pay the money to be refit by someone you trust or buy yourself a $10.00 multi tool, put it in your jersey pocket and ride your bike, adjust, ride more, adjust more, etc...
Good luck,
Steve
I've done my own saddle fittings many times myself, even stopped in the middle of rides to readjust but I never get it like a fitter does.
My fitter is 2 hrs (round trip) for me but you have convinced me I should return the saddle and go to the person I know and trust. At least I'm giving him the money and know I will get good service.
Ahneida Ride
10-03-2009, 05:21 PM
My LBS (Mt. Cyco, Ludlow Vt.) did it's best to get my Saddle and
it's position optimal. Rick got me a Brooks when all else failed.
But then, I purchase all my stuff there .
Fine tuning is up the rider. Ride with Allen wrenches and adjust while
riding.
false_Aest
10-03-2009, 05:27 PM
Saddles all all different so how do you know someone is close without ever seeing them on the bike?
Cesar Millan moonlights. . . .
My LBS (Mt. Cyco, Ludlow Vt.) did it's best to get my Saddle and
it's position optimal. Rick got me a Brooks when all else failed.
But then, I purchase all my stuff there .
Fine tuning is up the rider. Ride with Allen wrenches and adjust while
riding.
I would like to buy my stuff there but something about this place makes me uncomfortable, employees are friendly enough but there's an atmosphere there that bothers me. For example, I often have to search for someone to help me, whereas in other shops I'm usually greeted as soon as I walk in the door. When the fitter decided he was finished with me he ignored a question I asked him. Thinking he didn't hear I repeated the question then looked at him. His eyes were glued to the TV and he didn't even respond to my thank you and goodbye.
I went to this shop because they are nearby and had the product I wanted so I decided to give them another try .I also hoped to get good service and a minor charge for putting on the saddle would have been acceptable.
There are other shops nearby that don't sell this particular saddle but I am happy to give them my business and will continue to do so.
gemship
10-03-2009, 05:48 PM
I would like to buy my stuff there but something about this place makes me uncomfortable, employees are friendly enough but there's an atmosphere there that bothers me. For example, I often have to search for someone to help me, whereas in other shops I'm usually greeted as soon as I walk in the door. When the fitter decided he was finished with me he ignored a question I asked him. Thinking he didn't hear I repeated the question then looked at him. His eyes were glued to the TV and he didn't even respond to my thank you and goodbye.
I went to this shop because they are nearby and had the product I wanted so I decided to give them another try .I also hoped to get good service and a minor charge for putting on the saddle would have been acceptable.
There are other shops nearby that don't sell this particular saddle but I am happy to give them my business and will continue to do so.
I know exactly what you mean about being rubbed the wrong way and hesitant to go back... sounds a lot like my lbs. I think Ray and a few others made a good point in that you'll just have to bear with it a few rides, make pit stops and become a master by the end of it all hopefully at adjusting the saddle yourself. Field experience is where it's at. A more fresh suggestion that I have yet to read in regards to the shop's return policy you mentioned would be to maybe be a wee bit of PITA and return it for another saddle that may have a better suited form and perform more trial and error. Saddles suck like that and you just gotta go with the flow.
I know exactly what you mean about being rubbed the wrong way and hesitant to go back... sounds a lot like my lbs. I think Ray and a few others made a good point in that you'll just have to bear with it a few rides, make pit stops and become a master by the end of it all hopefully at adjusting the saddle yourself. Field experience is where it's at. A more fresh suggestion that I have yet to read in regards to the shop's return policy you mentioned would be to maybe be a wee bit of PITA and return it for another saddle that may have a better suited form and perform more trial and error. Saddles suck like that and you just gotta go with the flow.
I no longer mess with adjusting saddles myself because it often takes a second eye to see things. For many years I used the same brand women's saddle and thought it worked great. I had a refit, more of a recheck, on my Ottrott and my fitter saw that my saddle was too wide. He pointed out the wear on the nose and on the curve of the saddle. I had gotten used to riding that way probably road that way on every saddle I ever had. Tried to make the old saddle on this bike work but 2,000 miles on the Ottrott convinced me that it just wasn't to be. That's how I got into this. I thought it would be a simple matter for the shop to do for me what they do for a customer every time they come in to demo a bike, adjust the saddle fore/aft and height so the customer can get a decent feel for the bike. Never realized that if you aren't buying a bike the customer isn't entitled to this service.
snipped
I've done my own saddle fittings many times myself, even stopped in the middle of rides to readjust but I never get it like a fitter does.
If your position tolerance is that tight, going to your fitter is best. Most LBS don't have that ability.
snipped
If your position tolerance is that tight, going to your fitter is best. Most LBS don't have that ability.
Well, at one time I considered buying a custom frame from this shop, they did an excellent job of fitting this bicycle when I bought it. I was surprised that this woman was trained to set up potential bicycle buyers for demos but acted like she didn't know that when a saddle is moved forward as much as mine was that it might also have to be raised. I wonder what she does when she gets a customer that doesn't fit their cookie cutter method of fitting.
Besides, there were 2 certified fitters hanging around and I would have gladly paid them a reasonable fee to do it but I was told that there was no charge for this.
And yes, I will burn the gasoline to make the 2 hr round trip to have the saddle put on properly.
The fitters I orginally worked with at the shop are no longer there, I guess that would have helped.
Yes, I guess I am expecting decent service from this shop even though I'm not a regular customer. I paid $3,000 for this bike 4 yrs ago and their sticker is still on it, in big letters that they can't miss. Don't I get any perks for buying my bike from them? To me it sounds like once you're out the door with your bike we don't care about you any more.
Elefantino
10-03-2009, 06:57 PM
I agree with those who say you must, MUST become your own best fitter. Read. Learn. Do whatever. Spend hours with allen wrenches. (And I'm trying to get my head around how a Thomson is a PITA, but never mind.)
My $.02.
Ken Robb
10-03-2009, 07:01 PM
When we buy parts we are entitled to the parts. When we buy service/adjustments we are entitled to labor.
I don't expect them to install cables or chains free so why should a saddle be different?
Sometimes shops will do us a favor with a little free labor but we aren't entitled to it.
Ken Robb
10-03-2009, 07:13 PM
And yes, I will burn the gasoline to make the 2 hr round trip to have the saddle put on properly.
The fitters I orginally worked with at the shop are no longer there, I guess that would have helped.
Geez, how far do you drive to have your shoes tied? :rolleyes:
Seriously though, you said the staff has changed, you're not a regular customer, they don't know you. How would they know where you bought the bike? You could be the third owner. You might have stolen the bike. Some fitters are only paid per fitting so they really have no incentive to do free labor even for the shop's regular customers.
I really think you expected too much on this transaction and I'm sorry if I sound like a wise acre but I'm not 100% sure you aren't pulling our collective legs with this story.
I agree with those who say you must, MUST become your own best fitter. Read. Learn. Do whatever. Spend hours with allen wrenches. (And I'm trying to get my head around how a Thomson is a PITA, but never mind.)
My $.02.
Been there, done that. I spent most of the 80's and 90's reading, researching trying to find out why my bikes didn't fit. Saddles got changed, moved, measured myself with a plumb line, etc. Could never figure out why it wasn't right. All advice, and most of it still is, is for an average man. Even my LBS who was known for the best fittings "for men" didn't get it right. A good fitter introduced me to zero degree seatposts, steeper sta and a higher ht, all necessary for a good fit for a 5'1" woman with short arms and short femurs.
Sure I can do it but why when a good fitter can do what I need done in 10 min, whereas, if I don't get it right off the bat it could result in some miserable rides. Even the 2 hrs I will spend driving back and forth to my fitter will be less time than I potentially will spend trying to do it myself. If I don't get it right then it will take more of the fitters time to undo what I did!
Even though I was shown how to adjust the screws on the seatpost I never get the saddle flat. I even marked it so I knew where to put it and the nose still ended up too low. I had to take it to a shop to have the saddle leveled, I offered but they didn't charge me! :)
BTW, I'm not sure the gal put it on level.
Geez, how far do you drive to have your shoes tied? :rolleyes:
Seriously though, you said the staff has changed, you're not a regular customer, they don't know you. How would they know where you bought the bike? You could be the third owner. You might have stolen the bike. Some fitters are only paid per fitting so they really have no incentive to do free labor even for the shop's regular customers.
I really think you expected too much on this transaction and I'm sorry if I sound like a wise acre but I'm not 100% sure you aren't pulling our collective legs with this story.
Great big letters with their name on it! It's a brand that they sold. I still have the receipts! They told me they would install the saddle. I had the fitting paper with me with my name, address, model #, fitters name, on their letterhead and they knew the person who did the original fit.
And I'm not pulling you legs. It was this site that convinced me to buy my Ottrott and I have a lot of respect for some of your thoughts.
bironi
10-03-2009, 07:38 PM
Saddles are a pita. Too many variables. I agree with those suggesting that you learn to make your own fine tune adjustments. Checking in with your fitter if you can't get it is also fine.
As for the Thompson seatpost adjustment, I have one, and prefer my old one bolt, Campy. With the Thompson, I don't like the small adjustment markings with my old eyes, and I don't like having to fuss with two bolts rather than one. My only complaint about the old Campy design is the bolt head should accept a hex wrench, and not require a box wrench.
As for the LBS, you make the call based on your experience with other shops.
DukeHorn
10-03-2009, 07:42 PM
I don't get it. I've only been at this for 6-7 years and I'll fiddle with my own saddle to "fit" it. It's our "butts" and knees after all. A free fit is a bonus. If she did the knee plumb perhaps she thought she got it right. Perhaps the .75 in difference was due to the saddle itself (a thin Antares versus a thick Terry?). Fitters also have their own styles so I don't know why you expect the numbers to match up. I think you're expecting too much from a retail purchase.
As for the sticker on your bike, that really means nothing. I've bought all my bikes used and I don't expect to roll into Palo Alto Bicycles on my 1995 Merlin and expect free service (even if I have the original owner's $4,000 receipt).
jlwdm
10-03-2009, 07:47 PM
NWOS,
Time to take a break for a day. You have posted 13 times since this afternoon on this thread. Come back tomorrow - drop the emotion.
Read the posts slowly, including your own. Find some solutions because they are in the posts. Probably not at this LBS. Move on from your frustration to what you can do to get your saddle correct and have fun riding.
Jeff
Ken Robb
10-03-2009, 07:52 PM
re: leg-pulling. I just never had that big a problem with fitting and I regularly ride several VERY different bikes so I really thought you might be having some fun with us on this one. At my LBS I get lots of freebies from the owner but his employees are not authorized to do anything but charge full price as tagged and bill for labor. If you haven't already you might come to a happy conclusion by talking with the owner or at least the manager if the owner is not on-site. Good luck.
BryanE
10-03-2009, 08:17 PM
You are expecting too much.
You seem spoiled.
More than a little.
B
rugbysecondrow
10-03-2009, 08:24 PM
I think I would agree with most when they advise self sufficiency with regard to your own saddle comfort. I often travel with a bike (MTB and Road) and being able to dial that in myself is essential. It helps that I have Brooks B-17 on all my bikes, which is pretty easy to fit for me.
I would also agree with those regarding over thinking this. Make little tweaks while you ride to dial it in, then go from there.
Lastly, even though your fitter said your previous saddle was too wide, if it was comfy for you, why not keep it or buy a new one of the same?
Best of luck
markie
10-03-2009, 08:31 PM
Some days I feel sorry for LBS owners and employees.
I wonder if there is any other industry where people expect such great service?
If I buy a new "sport seat" for my car will the garage install it and then adjust it for me to be comfortable all at no extra charge?
93legendti
10-03-2009, 08:37 PM
I'm curious to know what normal bike shop procedure is when a customer purchases a saddle and would like to know what you all think about my experience. I recently bought a new saddle from the bike shop where I bought my bike and was fitted to it 4 yrs. ago. When I bought the saddle I specifically asked if they would put it on my bike and I was told sure, no problem. To me this meant they would also make sure the saddle was properly fitted to me on the bike.
So I went in and took my fit chart with me. The employee put it on and used my measurements from the fit chart but did not do any adjustments with me sitting on the saddle. The saddle was way to far back for me so I ended up riding on the nose to get over the pedals. I wasn't to upset because I failed to mention that the old saddle was to wide for me and didn't allow me to sit on it properly.
I went back and the 2nd person said "oh, I can take care of you". She did put the bike on the trainer but I had a hard time convincing her that the saddle needed to go forward so I could get my sitbones on it. She finally agreed to move it forward, wherever I wanted it, and used a block of wood to test my knee alignment. Then I asked if she needed to raise the saddle because we moved it forward. She checked my knee height and said it looked ok to her.
When we were finishing I asked her to write the changes we made on my fit chart and she told me "oh, I don't know how to read these charts or do the measurements, I've only been trained to do what I did for you" she then asked one of the shop's bike fitters to make the new measurements.
The saddle height came out 60 cm vs the 60.75 cm of the original saddle height. The fitter did not say anything about the discrepency and did not offer to check me on my bike. My bad again, I trusted their expertise and didn't check the numbers.
By the time I rode home, 10 miles, my knee was complaining. I can't say for sure the saddle height caused it but the saddle doesn't feel exactly right and now I don't trust that it adjusted correctly.
I'm wondering is this the best a shop can do when putting new saddles on for a customer? Am I expecting too much? When my regular fitter works with me he is very particular about my kops position and saddle height since I'm prone to knee problems. I'm a little bewildered by this experience, it seems so hap hazard to me and adjusting a saddle is that hard to do. This shop is well known and supposed to be good, and I was happy with my fit experience there 4 yrs. ago. I am trying to decide if I should go back a 3rd time or find someone else.
BTW, if I really want to be sure that my saddle position is correct I can pay $85 for a pedal analysis, on top of the $110 I paid for the saddle.
If I wanted my saddle mounted, I would ask if the lbs could mount it and if there was a charge. If I wanted a fitting to make sure height and setback on the new saddle are correct, I would ask for a fitting and ask if there was a charge.
The markup on parts is probably 100%, or less. From that $55 of "profit", the lbs has to pay property and income taxes, utilities, insurance and salaries (maybe advertising, as well). In my opinion, it is too much to expect an approx. 1/2 hr. free fitting on the sale of a $110 part.
It sounds to me that your dissappointment stems from your unspoken expectation of a fitting as well as the mounting, rather than the lbs' over promise and under delivery of service.
FWIW, I am an expert at installing the 1 saddle that I have on my 10 bikes and it still takes me several tries to get it right (I use a level and Serotta XY Tool).
SoCalSteve
10-03-2009, 08:45 PM
If I wanted my saddle mounted, I would ask if the lbs could mount it and if there was a charge. If I wanted a fitting to make sure height and setback on the new saddle are correct, I would ask for a fitting and ask if there was a charge.
The markup on parts is probably 100%, or less. From that $55 of "profit", the lbs has to pay property and income taxes, utilities, insurance and salaries (maybe advertising, as well). In my opinion, it is too much to expect an approx. 1/2 fitting for free on the sale of a $110 part.
It sounds to me that your dissappointment stems from your unspoken expectation, rather than the lbs' over promise and under delivery of service.
FWIW, I am an expert at installing the 1 saddle that I have on my 10 bikes and it still takes me several tries to get it right (I use a level and Serotta XY Tool).
I have that tool too!
Here is how I use it: XY tool sitting in the corner, I mount the saddle on the seatpost, insert the seatpost in the seat tube,adjust it the same distance, height and level as on all my other bikes with a tape measure, plumb bob and level. XY tool still sitting in the corner.
For the life of me, I cant figure out how to use the damn thing! I have read the instructions MANY times. Maybe that's why I flunked algebra and geometry in school... :crap:
Just sayin'
Steve
PS: Thank G@d it was given to me by a friend (who never used it himself).
JD Smith
10-03-2009, 08:58 PM
I would like to buy my stuff there but something about this place makes me uncomfortable, employees are friendly enough but there's an atmosphere there that bothers me. For example, I often have to search for someone to help me, whereas in other shops I'm usually greeted as soon as I walk in the door. When the fitter decided he was finished with me he ignored a question I asked him. Thinking he didn't hear I repeated the question then looked at him. His eyes were glued to the TV and he didn't even respond to my thank you and goodbye.
I went to this shop because they are nearby and had the product I wanted so I decided to give them another try .I also hoped to get good service and a minor charge for putting on the saddle would have been acceptable.
There are other shops nearby that don't sell this particular saddle but I am happy to give them my business and will continue to do so.
For some shop employees, familiarity breeds contempt, especially when they feel they've made an effort on a customer who cannot be pleased. The customer get's labeled as a PITA. It takes an extraordinarily patient employee to deal with all the demands of certain customers, the unrealistic expectations, etc.
Taking into considerations the obvious problems and complications you have finding satisfaction, you might be better off switching to a new shop and letting them have a crack at getting to know you.
93legendti
10-03-2009, 09:00 PM
I have that tool too!
Here is how I use it: XY tool sitting in the corner, I mount the saddle on the seatpost, insert the seatpost in the seat tube,adjust it the same distance, height and level as on all my other bikes with a tape measure, plumb bob and level. XY tool still sitting in the corner.
For the life of me, I cant figure out how to use the damn thing! I have read the instructions MANY times. Maybe that's why I flunked algebra and geometry in school... :crap:
Just sayin'
Steve
PS: Thank G@d it was given to me by a friend (who never used it himself).
I use it differently than Serotta probably intended:
After making sure my saddle is level, I use the XY too make sure my seat height is EXACTLY THE SAME as on my other bikes. I have it set so if the saddle is the right height, the bottom of the short, horizontal arm just touches the saddle.
A tape measure was not accurate enough for me. My knees can feel a slight, slight difference in seat height-and that's a bad thing.
mike p
10-03-2009, 10:04 PM
Thats one of the most wacked out things I've ever heard of!
Mike
I've done my own saddle fittings many times myself, even stopped in the middle of rides to readjust but I never get it like a fitter does.
My fitter is 2 hrs (round trip) for me but you have convinced me I should return the saddle and go to the person I know and trust. At least I'm giving him the money and know I will get good service.
Thanks, sorry I'm such a PITA.
BTW, LBS's website says I can't have pedal analysis unless I have a $250 Pro Fit.
bigmonter
10-03-2009, 10:35 PM
For the life of me, I cant figure out how to use the damn thing!
http://bethelcycle.com/merchant/373/images/site/figure4300.jpg
you're welcome :beer:
Ti Designs
10-03-2009, 11:00 PM
You think that rider/saddle interface is so simple that anyone in any shop with a tape measure can change from one saddle to another and get it right? I would love to know how. At what point do you measure setback from on the saddle. If one is wider than the other, how do you adjust your measurments? Do you not move in the saddle when you ride? I'm not even going to get into knee problems...
rugbysecondrow
10-04-2009, 08:28 AM
Thanks, sorry I'm such a PITA.
BTW, LBS's website says I can't have pedal analysis unless I have a $250 Pro Fit.
Seems people are being a little harsh. I don't think you are being a PITA, it is just a difference in expectations. Every shop is a little different in the service they provide and how they interact with their customers. The shop I go to most often would install it on the bike for you, they would help you get a rough fit on there, but they might not do any sort of fit analysis. That is why I like that shop and I recommend them to everybody who asks, very customer focused. This is the same shop that lets me watch when they do work on the bike so I can learn more about the bike and its parts.
That is also why this shop has a great deal of customers and return business.
Really sad when a person can't mount a saddle and position it himself. Measuring saddle height is an inaccurate process at best. All you can do is get it close, ride the bike and adjust a little out on the road.
As for the fore/aft position, the idea that KOP is the only proper position is just not true. I always ride further back for better balance over the saddle. Measuring the saddle nose setback with a different model is not likely to be of any value. When I tried four different saddles this year, I set the fore/aft entirely by feel. First at home, then with readjustments out on the road. If you're riding daily you get attuned to the bike and know within a few miles if the setting is stretched out or cramped.
rePhil
10-04-2009, 09:17 AM
I guess I'm lucky. I settled on Turbo's back in the 80's.I have enough to last for years. I use a tape measure and a level. End of story
CaliFly
10-04-2009, 09:18 AM
I think the issue here is that you think you need a fitter to get it right and that you don't trust yourself to get there. You CAN do it. Don't worry so much about measurements and charts.
If it's uncomfortable, tweak it. Different pains lead to different adjustments.
The mantra (in case you truly missed the message in more than a few posts):
Your fitter gets you close.
You make your own final adjustments.
You CAN do it. You WILL do it. We ARE being helpful.
Cheers!
93legendti
10-04-2009, 09:28 AM
I think the issue here is that you think you need a fitter to get it right and that you don't trust yourself to get there. You CAN do it. Don't worry so much about measurements and charts.
If it's uncomfortable, tweak it. Different pains lead to different adjustments.
The mantra (in case you truly missed the message in more than a few posts):
Your fitter gets you close.
You make your own final adjustments.
You CAN do it. You WILL do it. We ARE being helpful.
Cheers!
Exactly.
For me, I use a 12" level to get the saddle tilt the same as I am used to...make sure the floor is level (or at least the same for both bikes/saddles).
Saddle height is the hardest for me to get exact. A forumite posted last week about his home made seat height tool.
Once tilt and height are established, I estimate fore/aft adjustment based upon clamp placement on the rails. You can use center of saddle to bars or tip of saddle to bars to get you close.
Then I ride, paying attention to sensations at the hip, front of knees and back of knees and adjust fore/aft accordingly.
Ti Designs
10-04-2009, 09:29 AM
Really sad when a person can't mount a saddle and position it himself. Measuring saddle height is an inaccurate process at best. All you can do is get it close, ride the bike and adjust a little out on the road.
While I certainly agree with the part about riding and adjusting to fine tune the position, I find that most customers only know what they ride, and saddles are different. Take the two most popluar Fizik saddles, the arione and the aleante - one is super long and dead flat, allowing the rider to move all over the place, the other is sorter, more flexable with a dip in the center to help locate the rider. How do you go from one to the other?
The real down side of customers only knowing what they ride is that they tell their friends that one saddle is comfortable without really understanding why. The best example there are two women's saddles, the Specialized Jett and the Terry Butterfly. The specialized Jett (or Ruby) is designed around very specific sit bone contact points. The edges of the Jett are hard, the edges of the Ruby are downright sharp. The Terry saddle has more padding, no designated flat sit bone areas, but the edges are curved and padded. Which seat works for the rider depends mostly on how they position themselves on the saddle. If they tend to move themselves back as they pedal, the Specialized saddle is never the right answer, but the butterfly with it's wider tail holds the rider forward, so position can get thrown off.
These are differences between saddles that individuals aren't going to understand (until they've tried both saddles), but fitters should have a mental database of how people sit on the saddle and which ones work for them, and how the position needed to be adjusted. All that said, add a few words of advice from a good fitter to the above method of riding and tuning and you have a pretty good system.
Quote
Sure I can do it but why when a good fitter can do what I need done in 10 min, whereas, if I don't get it right off the bat it could result in some miserable rides. Even the 2 hrs I will spend driving back and forth to my fitter will be less time than I potentially will spend trying to do it myself. If I don't get it right then it will take more of the fitters time to undo what I did!
I think that this is missing the point, once you learn how to set it your self (more time up front) you will become more time efficient in the future. I have taken to wrenching everything (including building the wheels) as it is much easier and quicker for me to do it than take it in, wait for it, and maybe have to redo it because the high school age wrench did not get it right anyway. Fit seems to be a transitory thing anyway and positions, I think, for most of us change as we age.
Saddles change over time (wear in/out) you change (age) and we put on or take off cloths depending on the weather. TI designs points our that we all move over the seat during a ride (fast or slow, descending or climbing, flats) Listen to your body, experiment and you CAN do this yourself. Feels good when you accomplish it yourself anyway.
JeffS
10-04-2009, 09:43 AM
Or I will buy online and not support my local LBS.
You're not supporting them now. Their labor cost to install the saddle the way you think it should be done likely exceeds the profit on the saddle.
Now you're going to return it and leave them with a loss on the whole transaction. Do what you feel like you need to, but you are expecting too much.
mike p
10-04-2009, 12:40 PM
This thread is hard for me to believe. I keep wondering if it's april fools. It's a saddle it isn't rocket science! I've never in my life heard of a saddle fitting. With in 5 min anybody should be able to have the saddle very,very close, to perfect even if you switch make of saddle. After that a ride and maybe a tweak and your done. What am I not getting? If I told any local buds I had a saddle fitting I'd get laughed off the starting line.
Mike
pbjbike
10-04-2009, 01:09 PM
FWIW, I never remove an old saddle without first taking a saddle nose-to-bars measurement. Yeah, every brand/model will have different setback, but at least you've got some reference point to start with. Tiny marks with a micro Sharpie can show angle adjustment on the post before saddle removal, as that adjustment is usually lost. While you're at it, I usually mark the SP clamp fore and aft on the saddle rails before removal. You might hate the new one and the old one can go back on quickly.
With both saddles off the bike, you can hold them side by side and see or measure the differences in overall height and setback (subjective). If there are drastic differences, say from an Areone to a Brooks B17, you can make adjustments (like lowering the seat post in that example). If the differences are small, ride before making adjustments.
Never move the seatpost up or down during saddle change, so you know where it was. If you start fiddling with every adjustment without riding it, you'll end up frustrated and/or hurting. BTW, If you are a fan of KOP, a plumb bob and a mirror works great.
jasond
10-04-2009, 01:37 PM
While I certainly agree with the part about riding and adjusting to fine tune the position, I find that most customers only know what they ride, and saddles are different. Take the two most popluar Fizik saddles, the arione and the aleante - one is super long and dead flat, allowing the rider to move all over the place, the other is sorter, more flexable with a dip in the center to help locate the rider. How do you go from one to the other?
The real down side of customers only knowing what they ride is that they tell their friends that one saddle is comfortable without really understanding why. The best example there are two women's saddles, the Specialized Jett and the Terry Butterfly. The specialized Jett (or Ruby) is designed around very specific sit bone contact points. The edges of the Jett are hard, the edges of the Ruby are downright sharp. The Terry saddle has more padding, no designated flat sit bone areas, but the edges are curved and padded. Which seat works for the rider depends mostly on how they position themselves on the saddle. If they tend to move themselves back as they pedal, the Specialized saddle is never the right answer, but the butterfly with it's wider tail holds the rider forward, so position can get thrown off.
These are differences between saddles that individuals aren't going to understand (until they've tried both saddles), but fitters should have a mental database of how people sit on the saddle and which ones work for them, and how the position needed to be adjusted. All that said, add a few words of advice from a good fitter to the above method of riding and tuning and you have a pretty good system.
Ed,
A can't disagree with anything you have wrote but I think the real question is, would you do this analysis for free or do you think the purchase of a saddle should warrant a free analysis?
Ti Designs
10-04-2009, 02:20 PM
would you do this analysis for free or do you think the purchase of a saddle should warrant a free analysis?
With the market as it is and a better sale price one google search away, we're not making full margin on most saddles, there isn't room in the price to be adding much service. If the customer needs a bit of advice on how to set up the saddle, I'm happy to help out - it's the sort of conversation that goes on while I'm ringing up the customer. If they're looking to have me set their bike up on the stand, change out the saddle and try to duplicate the position, that gets billed out as fitting time.
CaliFly
10-04-2009, 03:06 PM
If they're looking to have me set their bike up on the stand, change out the saddle and try to duplicate the position, that gets billed out as fitting time.
You've answered the original question...and explained it to boot. Well done. :cool:
Smiley
10-04-2009, 03:40 PM
I've done my own saddle fittings many times myself, even stopped in the middle of rides to readjust but I never get it like a fitter does.
My fitter is 2 hrs (round trip) for me but you have convinced me I should return the saddle and go to the person I know and trust. At least I'm giving him the money and know I will get good service.
ONCE someone gets fitted by me I INSIST that I do any re-fit work for them GRATIS (free) cause I don't want anybody messing with my work PERIOD. This is the best good will I can convey to my clients and it takes me no time to make re-adjustments for my clients. Asking a shop that did not do your initial fit to mount the saddle no biggie but to go beyond the scope of work and adjust it maybe asking too much without paying them. Go to your original fitter and get it done right.
Karin Kirk
10-04-2009, 04:52 PM
mwos, I feel your pain. Not just for the initial situation but also for the tone of some of the responses here. I'm going to respond from a female point of view, which may be lacking here.
I agree that fiddling with the seatpost, trying to figure out your fit, dealing with the shop, etc are all potentially frustrating. However, this is not without a silver lining. The overall message to become more self sufficient and work through your own adjustments is spot on. There are all sorts of reasons why this is a good thing.
There is a large measure of empowerment that goes along with embarking for a day's ride with a multi tool and a certain degree of confidence that you'll be able to make adjustments and repairs as needed. Yes, you'll make mistakes along the way and maybe even make things worse temporarily, but that's the best way to learn. This whole sport is a process and this is part of it.
Since I married so well ( :D ) I don't need to do any work on my bikes whatsoever if I don't want to. But I try not to rely on that all the time. So for example if I am heading off for a TT it's up to me to move the saddle around and put on the aero bars. As I'm muddling my way through it I can feel Dave's restraint as I drop the tools and forget which way to spin the bolts. But Dave keeps his mouth shut (unless I ask) and I get through it. Then the next time it goes better and I gain confidence. Since the TT position is ever-evolving, I can keep track of small changes over time and do some experimenting. I really enjoy that process and I know I am learning something every time. Oh, and the sharpie is your best friend. I never loosen a bolt without first marking the initial positions of everything.
Another benefit to doing your own adjustments is that you are less beholden to the shop. There is no worse feeling than having to go to a shop that you don't even like. If you can do your own tweaking, then you can skip the shop altogether.
I bet in your area there are women's specific clinics to learn mechanics skills. I would highly recommend something like that. Lots of fun and educational too. For example, certain tools work great for women's smaller hands. (i.e. the Crank Brothers pocket tools are devine, and the ingenious "quick stick" is way easier than standard tire levers.)
So don't let this get to you. Instead, see it as a really good opportunity to increase your skills and make you a better all-around cyclist. Good luck! :)
Dekonick
10-04-2009, 04:56 PM
With the market as it is and a better sale price one google search away, we're not making full margin on most saddles, there isn't room in the price to be adding much service. If the customer needs a bit of advice on how to set up the saddle, I'm happy to help out - it's the sort of conversation that goes on while I'm ringing up the customer. If they're looking to have me set their bike up on the stand, change out the saddle and try to duplicate the position, that gets billed out as fitting time.
As it should! Your time is worth money. I am sure your bank would toss you out the door if you walk in with $10k in pennies and try to deposit them without first putting them in paper sleeves...
BTW - excellent point on understanding the design of each saddle.
ONCE someone gets fitted by me I INSIST that I do any re-fit work for them GRATIS (free) cause I don't want anybody messing with my work PERIOD. This is the best good will I can convey to my clients and it takes me no time to make re-adjustments for my clients. Asking a shop that did not do your initial fit to mount the saddle no biggie but to go beyond the scope of work and adjust it maybe asking too much without paying them. Go to your original fitter and get it done right.
Thanks Smiley,
BTW, I did buy the bike from the shop and was fitted there by one of their fitters when I bought the bike, had another fitter for my old road bike that did some adjustments after the bike was repainted and they did a pro build to put it back together.
Both of these fitters were excellent, very caring and attended to every detail. I was very impressed with their expertise. I almost used one to design my Serotta until I was lured away by SG. I would gladly work with either of these people but they no longer work there. I thought it was important to have the changes we made noted but the girl who helped me had to ask a fitter to do it. He recorded the changes, hestitated after he measured the seat height but said nothing. There is a 5/8" discrepency between the old saddle and the new. Instead, he decided to check out my bike, was displeased that I didn't put air in my shocks, it's my mtn bike and I forgot to put air in it for road riding. He played with the rebound, put air in for me and looks like he put some oil on the rear shock.
I was told by an employee that they would put the saddle on for me and if it wasn't comfortable I could come back and they would readjust it. I specifically asked if there was a fee and was told "no". I'm not expecting the attention the former fitters gave me but the basic fit nos. are there so why not use them as a starting point?
The girl who helped me was very young and eager. She tried her best with the training she had and having the "expert" spend a little more time with me would have been a good learning experience for her. I suspect she adjusts saddles for customers that demo bikes.
As far as taking up an employees time there were no customers in the store at the time. This is a very large store and it's rare that I see the same employees when I go in. So unless something is recorded in the computer an employee has no idea if I'm a regular customer.
And finally, if I told my ortho that I was sure my bike fit because I thought it "felt" good and that I made the adjustments he would send me to the nearest bike fitter before he allowed me on the bike. We've already had this conversation!
pbjbike
10-04-2009, 08:58 PM
I'm interested to know if was the shop on 38th, or was it on Pierce? Guessing... Vecchio's in Boulder is excellent if you don't want to drive to CoSprings or wherever. Best on getting it right!
JD Smith
10-04-2009, 11:20 PM
I guess I'm lucky. I settled on Turbo's back in the 80's.I have enough to last for years. I use a tape measure and a level. End of story
Not sure if you're aware, but they're back in reissue.
http://prollyisnotprobably.com/2009/08/selle_italia_turbo_reissue_rev.php
RABikes2
10-05-2009, 08:52 AM
With the market as it is and a better sale price one google search away, we're not making full margin on most saddles, there isn't room in the price to be adding much service. If the customer needs a bit of advice on how to set up the saddle, I'm happy to help out - it's the sort of conversation that goes on while I'm ringing up the customer. If they're looking to have me set their bike up on the stand, change out the saddle and try to duplicate the position, that gets billed out as fitting time.
Another female view:
As a certified fitter for our shop, I agree with what Ti says. I also agree with Smiley as we back our fits the same way. And I also agree with Karin. LEARN, experiment, play with it, and rely on yourself for tweaking adjustments.
On a similar note, this past Thursday, we had a young lady ride up to the shop (fairly new rider). She came in asking if somebody could look at her on the bike and tell her if it fit "right" because she was having low back issues. Her bike was 1) bought online, 2) her helmet, shoes, bike clothes, and computer were bought online, and 3) she thought it was simple and just wanted free advice. The owner stopped what he was doing, went outside and watched her ride, stood there and gave her solid advice on what he observed and what she might try, and charged nothing even though he spent 20 minutes away from a job that was making him income.
She then spoke to me for another 10 minutes and I advised her to complete the ride she was training for (next weekend), and then come in for a complete fit and get it done correctly from the start (she didn't have a clue). She rode off and there was no money exchanged for all the advice and time she was given. We operate that way at our store ... but, sometimes people just think we're there for the hell of it. I'm willing to bet she probably won't spend the money to get a proper fit done.
On a fit, we usually spend 60-90 minutes with the client and charge $50. Revisits are at no charge. Extremely reasonable and affordable for the service we offer.
Regarding the fact that your "basic fit numbers" were recorded, so "why couldn't they just use them". The "basic fit numbers" are taken by the initial fitter, but the next fitter (if you go to somebody different) could use the same numbers and still not have it right because he has his own system as to where he begins a measurement. Smiley could measure and get his #'s, Ed could measure and get his #'s, and I could measure and get my #'s and even though they were all done on the same bike fit, they would most likely be a little different due to our own techniques and start marks.
Just my .2 cents.
Ritaann
Smiley
10-05-2009, 09:04 AM
Another female view:
As a certified fitter for our shop, I agree with what Ti says. I also agree with Smiley as we back our fits the same way. And I also agree with Karin. LEARN, experiment, play with it, and rely on yourself for tweaking adjustments.
On a similar note, this past Thursday, we had a young lady ride up to the shop (fairly new rider). She came in asking if somebody could look at her on the bike and tell her if it fit "right" because she was having low back issues. Her bike was 1) bought online, 2) her helmet, shoes, bike clothes, and computer were bought online, and 3) she thought it was simple and just wanted free advice. The owner stopped what he was doing, went outside and watched her ride, stood there and gave her solid advice on what he observed and what she might try, and charged nothing even though he spent 20 minutes away from a job that was making him income.
She then spoke to me for another 10 minutes and I advised her to complete the ride she was training for (next weekend), and then come in for a complete fit and get it done correctly from the start (she didn't have a clue). She rode off and there was no money exchanged for all the advice and time she was given. We operate that way at our store ... but, sometimes people just think we're there for the hell of it. I'm willing to bet she probably won't spend the money to get a proper fit done.
On a fit, we usually spend 60-90 minutes with the client and charge $50. Revisits are at no charge. Extremely reasonable and affordable for the service we offer.
Regarding the fact that your "basic fit numbers" were recorded, so "why couldn't they just use them". The "basic fit numbers" are taken by the initial fitter, but the next fitter (if you go to somebody different) could use the same numbers and still not have it right because he has his own system as to where he begins a measurement. Smiley could measure and get his #'s, Ed could measure and get his #'s, and I could measure and get my #'s and even though they were all done on the same bike fit, they would most likely be a little different due to our own techniques and start marks.
Just my .2 cents.
Ritaann
First off RA your charging way too little for your fit service, I'd pay you twice as much to be fit by you. Next your right since taking a KOP reading varies by where each fitter may think they want to take the reading off the knee. I use a piece of masking tape and mark tape the edge of the shoe and mark the center of the pedal axel, THEN with the original saddle mounted where Kathi had no knee issues I'd drop a plumb from where ever I wanted to on the knee and tag it on the knee and on the tape on the shoe, then install new saddle and duplicate the plumb markings and location of the plumb on the tape. Sounds like something that would take a bit more time to get it right if said client has serious knee issues. But that's me and that's why my fits take a tad more time than others. And thats why I want to do tweaks for my clients for free. Its not that big a deal and I tend to know my clients pretty well so they don't abuse this follow up service. Its important to keep your repeat clients happy since their word to mouth is my business model.
...Get a set of allen wrenches and start working on your own bike. ....The fitter gets you close; you do the rest through trial-and-error and little adjustments. It's part of the game.
+1
If it doesn't feel right....adjust it.
I went thru the whole "fit thing" when I bought my CSI...the shop put together the bike, put me on it and gave a final adjustment before I took it home, but I still fiddled with the seat angle until it felt right.
Did so again when I replace the Flite with an Arione.
Like "caleb" said...."it's part of the game"
If you Thomson post is a "PITA" to adjust...maybe you need a different post?
:beer:
:beer:
The shop I used to work with got upset with me because I put a saddle that I bought from him on. He believed he should do it. That was a different time, place and attitude.
As far as doing the adjustment myself when I do I end up I moving the saddle all the time, when a qualified person does it I don't touch it, ever. I know from your opinions that many of you find this hard to believe, however, the following article on females and cycling explains why proper fore/aft position is so crucial. Keep in mind that my foot size is 5.5. It also explains why my achilles tendon and hamstrings were hurting when I was riding with the saddle placed too far back. The article also explains why I don't feel a need to change the saddle once the fitter sets it up.
"The key muscles involved in the flexion and extension of the ankle, and thus in transmitting force along the foot lever to the pedal interface, are the calf (gastrocnemius) and shin (tibialis anterior) muscles. The shorter the distance from the ankle to the pedal interface (ball of the foot), the greater the force required in these muscles. Thus the rider with larger feet has a mechanical advantage over the small-footed rider.
Because of this mechanical disadvantage, the fore and aft positioning of the saddle for female cyclists is even more critical. The saddle should be positioned so that maximum efficiency is attained in the transfer of muscle power from the knee extensor muscles (the quadricep group) to the pedal. Positioning the saddle so that a point just behind the patella (kneecap) is vertically above the pedal spindle has been shown to be the most effective. Similarly, a smooth pedalling action with minimum resistance applied to the up-pedal stroke is required."
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0149.htm
Since larger footed riders don't need to be so concerned with fore/aft position the assumption is close is good enough and yes then one can do their own saddle fitting. I also see why the shop considered "eyeballing" things good enough. No matter what you think of me there is a rational reason for this to be done right! Off to see a bike fitter.
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