Shared Information vs. Customer Privacy

[cinelli]

I had an interesting conversation with (name withheld) at Seven. I called to inquire about the dimensions of a used Seven Axiom I am thinking of buying. The guy at Seven (name withheld) said they could not release that information to anyone other than the original buyer. Reason: to "protect the privacy" of the original owner. I called Serotta a few months ago with a similar request....prompt response and all the information you would want. Has anyone else had this experience? :confused: :confused:

[dave thompson]

Seven has an interesting take on the privacy issue if all that is requested is just info on the bike, not the owner. I wonder why they do that?

[93legendti]

I have called Serotta about serial#'s of used bikes I was looking at and they gave the info -- no questions. Seven probably wants to try to discourage used sales so you have to buy a new bike from them.

[mavic1010]

I had the same experience at Seven. The original owner actually told me to call them for the specifics, gave me the seriel # and the phone # to seven. I called and they refused to give me specs on the frame. I was asking for BB drop and HT length. I even told them that the original owner told me to call them for specifics, they refused.

Don't know what's so private about giving specs on a bike. Not like I asked for the owner's address or anything. Anyways, was very disappointed in the whole experience.

[M_A_Martin]

So...you're riding down the road and you see a hot cyclist riding a Seven, you both happen to stop in at the same coffee shop along the ride...actually, you followed them there. You say hello, they politely brush you off. You both leave. you can't get them off of your mind. You want to get them a "special present" so show your love. You know they stop at the coffee shop so you wait for them. You get the serial number off the bike while they're inside getting their half caf double latte and they never see you. You call Seven. Ask about the size of the bike, seat tube length and top tube length...now you have a vague idea of what size they take, get some kinky leather stuff in their size, and give it to them with a single red rose at the coffee shop next time they show up.

At least I think that's how I heard the whole Sandy/Kevan thing started...

Seven is merely protecting themselves from getting in between their hot cyclists and stalkers.

Does it work for you?

(many many bananas...I'm joking...it's been a long day...and yes..it IS Saturday)

[Sandy]

You are very close. Actually, Kevan showed up at the coffee shop with a dozen dandelions,wearing a kinky leather outfit. He gave me the flowers, jumped up on the counter, and started dancing. Everyone fled the store, even the coffee, pastry, and coffee cups. It was just awful! :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, the rest is history. :)

Still Seeking Solitude,

Sandy

[Bradford]

I’m sure it is to discourage the sale of used bikes.

Let’s see, Ben makes great bikes, provides this forum, helps us understand the specs of used bikes we might want to buy, and even has a classified section on the forum. We all have our reasons for wanting this bike or that, some of which make sense and some of which are emotional. For me, it is pretty simple: I love the way a Legend rides and you can’t find a better company. I’ll buy bikes, new and used, that Ben made.

[M_A_Martin]

Maybe Seven can't tell you the information because they just don't know.

(you can loose anything quickly in any filing system...)

An interesting experiment would be if a Seven owner called Seven and asked for the specs on the bike they have sitting in their living room...does Seven give *them* the information?
(probably online?)

[WickedWheels]

I can understand their philosophy... it's no one's business but the owner's what the geometry of the bike is. What if you're spec'd out the geometry in a way that you don't want your competition to know about?

Besides, there's no problem there. They just want to owner to do the leg work rather than the perspective buyer. Imagine an owner of a Seven posting their bike on ebay with the serial number. How many calls would they get about the geometry? It's much easier to simply as "ask the owner" and hang up.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . simply saying “Ask the owner” and hanging up is generally not the best way to build positive customer service buzz--as evidenced by this very thread. I believe Wheelworks and TiDesigns sell Seven at their store. Perhaps they could inquire for us . . . I’m sure Seven DOES have a reason, though we may not agree with it.

As for Ben making it easy to buy used Serottas, no matter whether the bike is new or used, it still has Ben’s name on it, and given the overwhelming satisfaction rating that his customers generally have for his bikes, buying a used Serotta and being ecstatically happy with it could very well generate future sales of new frames.

BBDave

[pale scotsman]

I can understand their philosophy... it's no one's business but the owner's what the geometry of the bike is. What if you're spec'd out the geometry in a way that you don't want your competition to know about?

Besides, there's no problem there. They just want to owner to do the leg work rather than the perspective buyer. Imagine an owner of a Seven posting their bike on ebay with the serial number. How many calls would they get about the geometry? It's much easier to simply as "ask the owner" and hang up.

I'll bet a very used suede avocet touring I seat that W2 is right. Seven isn't going to make any money off a used bike so most likely their policy is to not spend any time on it. The privacy issue is the excuse. Like the bee man says, it's not a good way to win a potential customer.

[Climb01742]

one more example of what makes serotta serotta and seven, well, seven.

[wheelworks]

I had an interesting conversation with (name withheld) at Seven. I called to inquire about the dimensions of a used Seven Axiom I am thinking of buying. The guy at Seven (name withheld) said they could not release that information to anyone other than the original buyer. Reason: to "protect the privacy" of the original owner. I called Serotta a few months ago with a similar request....prompt response and all the information you would want. Has anyone else had this experience? :confused: :confused:


That is strange as I have asked Seven for dimensions for a bike not sold by Wheelworks and they gave us teh numbers. We needed to give them they name of the owner but it only took a day. Have a shop call in the numbers for you.

hhmm Serotta is great about getting numbers for frames!!!!!

[davids]

I have called Serotta about serial#'s of used bikes I was looking at and they gave the info -- no questions. Seven probably wants to try to discourage used sales so you have to buy a new bike from them.
I contacted Seven with the serial number of my Seven, bought used, and they provided me with complete information within a day, no questions asked. Actually, it went way beyond no questions asked - I was enthusiastically welcomed to their ranks, and wished a long, happy life with my "new" bike! Every contact I've had with them has been great (...except for shipping my waterbottles to the wrong zipcode...)

Maybe I'm overly sensitive on this point, but Seven seems to get bashed here almost as much as Lightspeed. :no: I have some theories about why...

[jerk]

I can understand their philosophy... it's no one's business but the owner's what the geometry of the bike is. What if you're spec'd out the geometry in a way that you don't want your competition to know about?

Besides, there's no problem there. They just want to owner to do the leg work rather than the perspective buyer. Imagine an owner of a Seven posting their bike on ebay with the serial number. How many calls would they get about the geometry? It's much easier to simply as "ask the owner" and hang up.


the jerk would go so far as to say it's no one's business but the builder's what the geometry of the bike is. buy a tape measure. anything you cant figure out with that and a plumb bob you don't need to know.

jerk

[WickedWheels]

I can't believe that some of you guys are bashing Seven for not providing geometry specs to some Joe Shmoe off the street!!! My shops sells that brand and they are EXCELLENT to deal with. They treat their customers like gold and appreciate every single one of them.

What's next? For Seven to disclose how much the person paid for their bike? Or how about a bike shop disclosing someone's fit measurement?

[dave thompson]

Asking Seven for specs on a bike is not one iota different than asking GM for the build sheet on a 69 'Vette, which I understand they will provide. So will Serotta and so will Calfee, and I suspect many other builders. So Seven may be 'correct' in their mind for not doing the same, but it can be (as you see here) a customer relations gaffe.

I'm sure that a buyer, contacting Serotta about a used Serotta he *may* purchase, will feel much better about the bike and the company if he buys that bike because the specifications were to his liking. And that buyer of the used Serotta may be more inclined to purchase a new one later down the road, and he will certainly speak well of Serotta and their customer service. As opposed to a company that says "Sorry, we don't do that".

[Climb01742]

sir jerk,
when i bought mrs. jerk's bug hors, serotta sent me a copy of the original build sheet. it was valuable in understanding how its ride characteristics might have differed from my other frames based on its geo numbers. and it gave me a sense that serotta stands behind what they build. i don't attribute anything sinister to seven for withholding their build info. but i do attribute some good things to serotta's very open attitude to sharing frame info. a company is the sum of thousands of small details and acts. serotta just seems like an very open, engaged company. sharing build info is a small thing. a good human thing. and probable not much of an industrial secret. i'd bet kelly would say, here are the build numbers...now go try build one as well as i can. :beer:

[WickedWheels]

If we were talking about a production bike, I would definately agree with the Corvette analogy. But in this case we are talking about custom bikes. That's something that can be VERY personal. Seven is simply playing it safe and leaving it up to the owner to disclose the numbers. Any decent seller of a custom bike of that caliber will disclose the numbers anyway. Seven will without question disclose the numbers of a bike to a 2nd owner, by the way.

I think this makes for BETTER customer service, not worse. After all, they are there to service the owner of the bike, not the potential buyer (of someone else's bike).

If the seller of the bike doesn't disclose the geometry of the bike, blame the seller, not the company, for keeping that information private. Don't let that fact speak for the customer service of the company. Especially without any first-hand experience with their customer service. No one reasonable should view this policy as a sign of bad customer service.

As far as my first-hand experience... I know many of the guys at Seven. I know their level of professionalism and their dedication to their work. I've dealt with their brand since the very creation of Seven. I've seen how they've treated my customers. I don't have a single bad experience to relate, but I have plenty of great ones.

[WickedWheels]

BTW, all the people that got geometry spec's on their Seven's... you already owned the bike. Seven gave you the spec's on YOUR OWN BIKE! How can anyone expect them to give out the custom dimensions of someone else's bike?!

[dave thompson]

I still don't understand your rationale. Dimensions, angles etc., custom or otherwise, are merely X, Y, Z. There's no privacy issues in that.

I'll tell 'ya, if I was a potential purchaser of a second hand bike, Serotta, Seven, Calfee et al that wasn't a 'stock' bike, I sure the heck would want to know all about it before I bought it. If I couldn't get the info from the owner, I would seek it from the maker. Calfee and Serotta have provided me with the requested information. If I was looking at a used Seven, and Seven said "sorry but no", that brand might be scratched from my lust list. I've purchased 2 used Calfees on the open market before I bought a new one. I bought 5 used Serottas the same way before I walked into a dealer and said I want one. Because of the 2 aforementioned brands customer service and apparent interest in me enjoying one of their used bikes, they and their dealers made money from me. Now. based on my experiences, what should I expect from Seven? And conversely what should Seven expect from me?

[Serotta PETE]

BTW, all the people that got geometry spec's on their Seven's... you already owned the bike. Seven gave you the spec's on YOUR OWN BIKE! How can anyone expect them to give out the custom dimensions of someone else's bike?!


I would assume that the seller should than call Seven and get the specs and then publish them with the SALE posting. If this is the way Seven prefers to operate their customer service than so be it. If I recall their FORUM, if they still have it, was also much more restrictive than Serotta - on what could be said.

I guess I am use to dealing with the open cimmunications of Serotta. And that is why I have been dealing with them for many years. Seven makes a good product but the company "personality" is different. It does not work for me for - If you have a Serial # and ask for date of production and specs - what violation of privacy is being violated?) None in my view, but we all have opinions.

The company "Seven" or anyone else, determines how they will deal with the public.....The public then decides whether that works for them.

This is not worth getting in a "food fight" over///

Time for a brew................. :beer:

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . I’m a bit puzzled over any conclusion one might jump to about Seven as a whole company over this one incident. There is no doubt they build fine bikes and have acquired quite a large reputation in a comparatively short time primarily because of the quality of what they build.

What surprises me here is that they would not give out a reason WHY they do not disclose this information. Simply saying, “It’s a privacy issue” and hanging up does not do nearly as much for their reputation as saying, “We value oiur relationship with our established customers, and out of respect to the original owner of this particular frame, we have made a commitment to keep it private. Perhaps you could have the current owner of record contact us and we can provide the measurements to them and they can then provide them to you.”

I know that sounds like customer relations BS, but it would certainly come across better to the majority of people they might field questions from. But I guess I shouldn’t be surprised--after all, how many companies have we all dealt with in many consumer areas where it’s obvious when you contact them that they just DON’T “get it” when it comes to customer service.

And additionally, one reason that has not been mentioned here they might stay mum is that it would also make it more difficult for someone to sell a stolen frame/bike. I would think that a thief attaching such detailed info to a “hot” frame on eBay would lend legitimacy to the sale.

BBDave

[WickedWheels]

So when a custom bike is purchased, what kind of information should be considered "opened to the public"? Part specs? Geometry? Fit measurements? Body dimensions? Age of rider? Weight of rider? Price of bike? The credit card number used to pay for the bike?

What kind of information would you like your local bike shop or your custom bike builder to disclose about you to anyone that asks?

Who should decide what information is fair game? The guy that built the bike? The guy that sold it? The guy that bought it? Maybe YOU?!

To all of those bashing the quality of Seven's customer service: become a customer and find out what they are like first-hand! Buy a Seven, talk to a Seven owner, talk to a Seven dealer. Just don't bash them because they won't disclose information that's no one's business but the owner of bike.

[H.Frank Beshear]

I own two Serottas dont have a clue what the geos are. If I give you the serial #s Serotta will give you all the silly angles and such. They fit me will they fit you? I don't have a clue! I'm selling you are buying and if you want to know ask serotta and they will tell you the silly angles and such. Thats the point. NO ONE bashed seven the question was not for the age et all just for the silly angles and such so I may find out if it fits the me. Jeez Its a serotta forum already, you expect us to wax eloquently over a brand that asked Kahuna to shut down a similar site to this? Sorry for the rant I gues its just my turn to get bugged. Frank

[dave thompson]

So when a custom bike is purchased, what kind of information should be considered "opened to the public"? Part specs? Geometry? Fit measurements? Body dimensions? Age of rider? Weight of rider? Price of bike? The credit card number used to pay for the bike?

What kind of information would you like your local bike shop or your custom bike builder to disclose about you to anyone that asks?

Who should decide what information is fair game? The guy that built the bike? The guy that sold it? The guy that bought it? Maybe YOU?!

To all of those bashing the quality of Seven's customer service: become a customer and find out what they are like first-hand! Buy a Seven, talk to a Seven owner, talk to a Seven dealer. Just don't bash them because they won't disclose information that's no one's business but the owner of bike.
I'm not bashing Seven at all. I'm questioning a company policy that, to me, goes contrary to what I would generally consider, at least, good customer relations. By providing basic geometry and dimension information, both Serotta and Calfee have gained me as a new bike customer. It's not rocket science to give out this information. Nor is it a breach of any kind of customer confidentiality that I can think of. It does take time granted, and if Seven chooses not to spend the time because it's a relatively small company, I can understand that much better than what they have told others that have enquired of them.

[mavic1010]

I was disappointed with Seven's policy, cuz I explicitly told them I was interested in buying "so and so's" bike and that he clearly advised me to contact Seven for the specifics. Sellers gave me his name and the seriel #. Now I did not call Seven and ask where this person lived, his credit card #, his yearly net income or the name of his kids. I just asked what the headtube length and bb drop were. I even asked them, why that information was so secretive, they had no answer except, "it's our policy". That's fine, each company has their own policies which I may agree or not agree with.

My experience with Serotta has been the complete opposite. Heck, I asked for so many specs sheet, I knew they must have hated seeing my emails :) . Heck, I've even given people my seriel # cuz they wanted to compare my build to their build. Not like Serotta gave out my personal information or Mike at Cyclesport.

Now if you can determine my personal information (current job, yearly income, credit card information) from having headtube length of 18.2 cm, let me in on the secret too. :rolleyes:

[slowgoing]

All I know is ms. jerk's ex-hors fits me like the metal pants fit her.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . line about “It’s our policy” . . . because that triggers MY reply of, “Well, it’s MY policy not to do business with companies who take refuge in ‘policies’ because they can’t train their people to deal with the real world. Good-by.”

So glad I bought a Serotta instead. Thank you, Ben!

BBD

[Serotta_James]

We will provide specs for people if they ask. We only do so when provided with a valid serial number. Normally I would prefer just to give people specific dimensions rather than the entire frame draft. In the latter case, however, I make sure that any original customer information has been deleted from the draft prior to sending it out. There is then nothing on that draft to link it back to the original owner.

While we have no problem doing this, the Jerk is correct when he says that most specs could more easily be gained by simply measuring. Unless one has a detailed understanding of our build process, most drafts will not provide information on what tube sets were used for a given bike.

On a related note, I have always seen it as a matter of sales etiquette that the onus for providing the specs is on the person selling the frame.

[Sandy]

1. For the more sophisticated (certainly not me), one might want to know seat tube angle, head tube angle, and trail, and how would one measure those angles? Fork rake on some forks?

2. I guess that Serotta turned me down for sponsorship. Was it close? Did you vote for me? I am so sad Serotta turned me down.

Sad Sophisticated Sandy

[Ti Designs]

I believe Wheelworks and TiDesigns sell Seven at their store. Perhaps they could inquire for us . . . BBDave

It's all there in the fine print in the dealer agreement, or so I've heard. I've never seen the dealer agreement, but much like the easter bunny or bigfoot I belive it exists.