Rusty bits and surly mechanics

[Too Tall]

This week I get a call from a pal who is asking me what fork to replace his Ti Legend's F1 (one inch) with. There really isn't much as his steerer is pretty long so I ask why he needs to replace it. Turns out the lower bearing race has fused to the steerer due to his NEVER servicing it in ages and the shop told him he needs a new fork.

Well gee. I'm really skeptical that a cro mo steerer is going to rust THAT bad due to the usual slime, sweat and misuse. I mean really, those suckers are thick and the old F1's are built like Sherman tanks right?

So he rescues the fork from this shop and I give it a soaking in ammonia...off pops the bearing race and tap tap tap off comes the crown race and in 10 more min's the race seat is polished with emery and steel wool...in 10 more mins. the steerer is buffed out and threads are wire brushed straight. Looks OTAY!!!

Word from the shop was (and this is a quote) "We will not install it or take responsibility" sorry you need a new fork.

Wish I had taken a picture before and after. It looked pretty gnarly but once I was done it seemed just fine...but I could tell it was OK even before I saw it. The guy keeps his bikes in doors and it's a cromo steerer for cryin' out loud.

Am I wrong? or am I red neck? Both?

[jerk]

no.
yes.
take it to a better mechanic next time.
jerk

[H.Frank Beshear]

Sounds like that what his friend did :D . the better mechanic part in case BD reads this and gets confused. :beer: :beer: :banana: Frank

[Too Tall]

Sheesh. Thanks, I needed a little affirmation. That shop is for da birds. Beats me why he didn't bring it to me in the first place...prolly didn't want me to see the mess he made. Ha ha, I made out...he's promised to "loosen" the top on his 15 yr Laphroaig :)

[terry]

so many horror stories re lbs's it boggles my mind-how do so many buffons stay in business. it's easy to work on bikes AND do a good job-these are not mutually exclusive terms. TT did your buddy at least bring the beer?

[William]

Heck, if he didn't supply the beer, I'll buy just for you being such a good bud.

You want to come move next door to me??? :D


William ;) :)

[Too Tall]

YES :) You can never have too many friends.
He's a good guy, used to be my main man for training too...he just lost his way (wink wink).

[H.Frank Beshear]

as long as he can find his way to the Laphroig he's not too lost. :banana: Frank

[flydhest]

TT,

I'm sick of shops in the area. I got some Centaur level stuff for the steel bike I just built up yesterday. I didn't realize it took a diffferent BB tool from the other Campy stuff. No shops in the area had it, but one gave a friendly with a "y'all come back now, hear!" attitude and a "no problem, we can pop it on for you." $10 freakin' tool, turns out, they charge me $30 for the 5 minutes--literally--to put the damn thing in. I shoulda asked how much first.

[H.Frank Beshear]

T.T. I just broke the seal on a new bottle of Ardbeg. Islay at its finest. I'll leave the top off if you can tune up my IT bands. :beer: Frank

[WickedWheels]

Flydhest,

Just out of curiousity, did you bring in a mail order BB to have installed?

I'm trying to think of how many shops in the Boston area would have in stock a low-end Campy BB tool. Not many. I wonder how many people per month order such a tool in the Boston area...

[Too Tall]

10-4 SuperFly! The attitude...OMG the attitude!!! Repeat after me, BE NICE PEOPLE LOVE IT :) That's just one of the reason's folks like you and me need to spend more time in the garage working on bikes. Matt Barkley ,of course, will never do yah wrong. <===A shameless plug for a good guy.
Frank - I'm so there. The "wee bit of nectar" goes well with so many things. Ha ha, dinner last night was SHWEET. "Honey dinnnnneeeerrrr". I had two shots of Highland waiting for her and a steaming plate of homemade Risotto w/ shallots, mushrooms and green beans.

[Bill Bove]

Wicked Wheels and Fly, how would you handle the situation? I ask because you can give me two different angles. I own a shop and I sometimes have to do things like that, we are a big Campy shop so how much do I charge to overhaul an Ergo lever bought down the street or mail order? Do I impose a "bought elsewhere tarriff" on the job? Or do I give the customer the same labor break that my customer gets? Do I use this as a chance to impress a new customer? Where's the reward in that for my loyal customer?

Tools and employees cost money so I have to recoup something, somewhere. I used to charge 30 bucks to overhaul a cup and cone BB but the new sealed units just pop in so I'm only getting 15-20 bucks to do it now but if you bought the bike from me in the first place there is no labor charge (for that, something more labor intensive would have to cost more).

Wicked Wheels, what do you do at your shop?

Flydhest, what do you think is a fair price?

[flydhest]

I think anywhere from free to $15 would have been reasonable, and don't get me wrong, I'm all for shop loyalty.

So, the guys there said they would normally have it. I know that the shop I usually go to has them on the rack, but that's 45 minutes to an hour away.

Like I said, I should have asked, but I engaged one mechanic in conversation about the tool, had to point out which tool it was and wasn't (I had the record/chorus bb tool in my pocket. That's also the lock ring tool) and then the service bay manager came over and said that he normally had it and since he came on board at the shop he was making sure they stocked more Campy stuff--almost like "sorry we're out now, let's see if we can help you out. We started talking about Centaur parts and he was extolling their virtues, having come to roughly the same conclusion I did, which is that they are not, in fact, low-end parts. Moreover, they said something like, "Oh just bring in in the bike. no problem we can just pop it in for you." and with our discussion, it was clear that everyone involved knew how trivial the installation is.

My original plan was to order the tool from them--since they were nice--go home and swap out my crank from another bike until I got the tool, but since it seemed like they were just going to help me out, I thought to myself, "wow, I was wrong, I may have a new LBS, nearby that don't seem like jerks."** I was ready to be a regular, now, well, they're just another bike shop. I'll buy a part there if I need it soon, otherwise, I'll do my own work. This shop in question is the branch shop of the original that was down in my old neighborhood. At that shop, I ran into too much attitude and wrong information being given out and saw some sloppy wrenching. I decided to give the new shop a couple chances, since they had a different manager.



**(first shop I went to that day looking for the tool, the guys were pricks. The said, "we don't have one, but you can pay us to take it out." I was responding, "I'm not taking it out, I'm putting it in, but I want to have the tool anyway," but I didn't get the sentence out, because the guy cut me off and, in a snide tone says, "well we can install them as easily as taking them out." Yeah, like I'm going back there.)

[WickedWheels]

Bill,

My shop would have done exactly the same thing as the shop in D.C. We would have been really nice, charged him $30 or so and made it a point to explain why it's that much if he complained about the price. I think it's absurd to expect discounted labor (or free labor) when you are some random guy off the street coming in with a mail order part looking for our service.

Most people see that it's a 5 minute job and think the labor should be less. They don't realize that in order for us to do this job in 5 minutes it takes a SKILLED, PROFESSIONAL service technician. How much experience does this mechanic have? What is that worth? How about the liability of installing a BB? What if the bike had slightly damaged or dirty BB threads and the mechanic stripped out the shell and the BB installing it? What would Fly do then? Whose head would he want on the chopping block over his mail order BB?

All that being said, if it's a BB bought from us, we would discount the labor to $15-$20.

There are some shops that would have done it for $15, and charge nothing if it was bought from them. These shops are in the business of selling parts, not labor. This is a big mistake. We need to sell OURSELVES. You are discounting the expertise of your staff by giving away the labor. This is just about the only industry where a professional can be involved in for 10 years, have a rediculous amount of knowledge about a rediculous amount of stuff, and still struggle to make $30K a year. It's partly due to attitude of people like Fly, that expect "free to $15" labor on their mail order part, and partly due to shop owners that give it away.

Bill, if you own a small mom-and-pop shop that has high-school part-time help running it, then I can understand giving away labor. But if you hire professional staff then you need to charge for their professionalism. It's like getting a hair cut at Supercuts for $9 or going to a salon or a real barber.

Fly, if you want to have cheap labor you should expect to get cheap labor. You will risk damage, you will not get warrantied service, and you will have a 15-year old kid installing a BB on your Serotta.

That's my 2 cents' worth

[flydhest]

WickedWheels,

I didn't expect free labor. I didn't even want any labor. I wasn't trying to bilk anybody out of anything. They were the ones who brought it up, they made it seem as if it was completely trivial (which I acknowledged, because it is). Although you used it only as an example, I'll point out that the frame was pristine, NOS, and the installation took literally less than 5 minutes with the mechanic chatting while he was doing it. Installing a cartidge BB is cake.

Heck, I'm not even saying that they done me wrong. I'm just pointing out why I almost never go to bike shops. They don't always have skilled labor, but charge the same. If goodwill stops merely at a smile, then I can do the work myself. It would have been nice, of course, had they said, "no problem, we can pop it in for you and it will only be $30." The service manager was the one who made the offer in the first place and was the source of the fee.

I agree, a bike shop needs to sell itself--how it does that is another issue. As it turns out, they lost someone that could have been a regular customer. I know how to do my own wrenching, but I'm often short on time. If I had confidence in the shops around here, I'd be more than happy to pay them a premium. I do this in every other aspect of my life. I buy stuff at my local hardware store because Todd is great guy, helps me out with stuff, answers my questions, so I don't care that I pay more than I would at Home Depot, and most importantly, because to me he's Todd, who with his lovely wife Adrianna, just had a baby boy whom I got to hold. For that kind of relationship with a shop, I'd buy everything there and get service done all the time.

The defensive tone I see in lots of shops also puts me off. The guy doesn't know how or where I came by the frame or parts. He doesn't know how much I spend annually on cycling. The default can be "treat him like a stranger until he becomes a regular" or it can be "treat him like a regular the first time and see if he becomes one." They're fully entitled to run their business however they want, but I won't feel a shred of guilt or dismay if shops like that close up because they don't have enough of a customer base.

As far as discounted labor . . . $30 for five minutes works out to . . . $360 and hour. Of course, most lawyers will break it into 15 minute periods, so that makes $120 an hour. Sounds like a good price?

I didn't ask for cheap labor and I didn't want cheap labor. I thought they were making a goodwill gesture to get a customer. When I realized how much they charged, I just paid it, because, quite honestly, they provided a service. I don't expect cheap or free labor, in fact, I expect expensive labor that I have to be a bit skeptical of. That's what I get when I go to bike shops.

The question was not what price did I expect, the question was, what do I think would have been a fair price, and I assumed implicit in the question was "given the circumstances."

"Head on a chopping block" where does that come from? All I did was go in, pay what they asked, and left with no intention of going back.

[flydhest]

Sorry for the breach of netiquette by replying to my own post, but two things have happened in recent days that made me want to revisit this discussion.

First, I posted on another board www.coffeegeek.com about a less-than-stellar service issue I had with my espresso machine. I got a call from the vendor who simply tried to explain away the service by saying, essentially, that's just how it is. I've worked with other vendors who are much more gracious and helpful and I wish I had bought my machine from them (it was a present from my wife, so I didn't have much choice, she surprised me with it).

Then I was in my neighborhood hardware store again yesterday and the guy who runs the store is just great. Helpful to everyone, when someone wanted a tool just to open a lock on his suitcase that had the key broken off it it, Todd took one off the wall, said the guy could rent it for $3, and later said, "I'm sure at some point someone else will need to use one and now I've got at least one more loyal customer."

So, Bill, wickedwheels, other shop employees, I'm just curious to know about the general philosophy of short-term versus long-term revenue, customer relations, that sort of thing. I don't know what the right answer is, but I'm curious to hear more views on the subject. I would personally rather be a frequent customer to a bike shop, but it doesn't make sense to me, given the shops that are near me.

[Marco]

Sandy: quick, be like Solomon and make peace. You always (want to) find the good side of every situatiion.

Fly: I'm with you on this one; and if I let you hang with my young children will you please true my wheels :)

[William]

Customer service is the number one way to get and retain customers. Especially in a niche market like high end bikes and components in real store fronts. You see the customers face to face. Skilled employees and good pricing are a close second. It's a fine edge to walk. I have two shops near me, one about 5 - 10 minutes away, the other about 20 - 30 minutes away. The shop that is closer is more of a "Boutique" shop, fancy displays, high prices, and attitude in place of good customer service. I don't even know if their wrenches are good, I couldn't get past the surly "what do you want you're bothering me" attitude. I probably would have kept going there and dealt with the higher prices if they acted like they were interested in helping you (provided the mechanics knew what they were doing). I don't need to be fawned over but a simple "may I help you" goes a long way.
The current shop I frequent is a little more out of my way, but the service is great, prices are reasonable, and the mechanics know what they're doing. They're all X-racer types that have been involved in cycling for years and don't mind shooting the breeze, letting you hang out in back while they work on your ride. They don't mind when I bring in mail order parts, I buy from them as well. I've received freebie service at times and have been slipped in to get me back on the road ASAP. The thing is, I was treated this way from day one. I didn't have to "earn" respect as a regular to get good help. I would call myself a regular now, and I can say that because they treated me that way from the beginning.
Treating some one as an outsider because they aren't a regular or they bring in mail order parts is a sure way to get them to look elsewhere. Even if you don't get them to turn into a regular by putting forth your good service, you will likely get some good word of mouth by it. Still seems like a possible win win situation. What's that worth?

As far as having a regular shop to go to, I'm currently stuck in the middle of a situation between my shop and a well known builder. At the moment they are both pointing the finger at each other. The shop seems to be keeping me up on the situation. They even called me twice yesterday on the subject and once the day before. They appear to be doing all they can to resolve the issue. The builder hasn't responded to my last couple of inquires. It's good to have some one go to bat for you regardless of where the problem lies.

William

[flydhest]

Marco,

If I get to play with your kids, I'll build you a set of wheels.

William,
I like your attitude.

I'd love to hear another perspective from shop owners/employees. I'm certain there's a litany of horror stories about dumb/rude customers. Nevertheless, I thing the question remains about how shops develop their 'initial response' to newcomers, and such.

[xlbs]

on how the day is going, and how the customer approaches the lbs...Most lbs folks try to maintain a good level of civility, and most customers (whether they are carting along their own parts bought elsewhere, or simply looking for service) are seeking to find same. The sad reality is that the human factor kicks in sometimes, no matter how well intentioned all parties are.

Installing a customer's component purchased elsewhere often provides for a slight strain on the civility of the lbs up-front, especially if the day has been or is busy with "regulars". Attempting to encourage the new customer to be a regular, by providing exemplary service, is just plain smart business, and the ideal. Yet, is it really reasonable to for a customer to expect a warm welcome and perfect response when they request (heavens, please don't demand!) immediate service on a bicycle purchased elsewhere installing components purchase elsewhere?

LBS shop-time is constrained too, and the typical lead or highly qualified LBS mechanic is often under elevated and constant pressure to serve the well-healed customers quickly and well. Is his or her time best spent serving the immediate request for service from a stranger when there may be several regular customers' bikes waiting for immediate service too?

Yes, this was a simple cartridge BB installation, but, as well and rightly noted earlier, a messed up set of BB threads, or an incorrectly chosen component (sadly, often the case....) or a damaged crank or...can change a simple installation into a disastrous combination of conflicting loyalties. How does that well-intentioned mechanic explain to his regular and loyal customer that their promised repair is going to be late because the "quick and easy" installation they chose to slip into the queue turned into a lengthy and messy procedure?

Over 20 years of service work made me very cautious about accepting a "quick" installation/repair immediately; we often chose to charge a "hassle fee" because of the inherent, and all too often realized risk, that we were going to end up doing a lot more than we were asked to, under pressure, with the customer complaining about the time involved...

Thus, my sympathies lie on both sides of the counter under such circumstances. It's a really tough call.

The worst circumstance I can remember involved a couple who rolled into my LBS one extraordinarily busy Saturday in spring (we're talking RUN RUN RUN all day) riding a tandem needing help with a "simple" rear derailleur adjustment. Their idea of "simple" was enormously different from what the bike actually needed. I figure we lost at least two significant sales because what might have been a 5 minute fix turned into a complicated repair involving dropout alignment, cable and pully replacement. And, once the bike was on the stand, we couldn't just send them on their way---they were from "out of town" on a long ride. Meanwhile this couple stood around the store grumbling at the "poor" service they were getting while we did our best to maintain our civility in what was a most frustrating situation.

And, when we went to charge this couple they cried foul at having to pay for 30 minutes of labour, plus parts, when we'd spend closer to 45 minutes on their "simple" problem...We probably lost about $500 profit by doing a "5 minute job..."

So, what may appear to be an easy call just ain't that simple.

[weisan]

xlbs, very well said.

I do my own wrenching because I enjoy it but overall I think it's a good idea for every cyclist to know a thing or two about basic bike maintenance so they know what it takes or at least would learn to appreciate the service they are getting from their LBS.

Just recently, I paved my patio and it took me two full days to get it done. After going through the back-breaking exercise, I have a lot more respect to the folks who do this for a living.

[OldDog]

Let's assume the bike shop has an hourly rate, which is usally based on overhead. I have seen posted anywhere from 35.00 - 55.00 in various shops.
Let's use the higher rate of 55.00, we're talking DC. A five minute install job, round to a quarter hour is $13.75, plus parts if any.

For 30.00 I'd expect the threads tapped out and cleaned and the bb installed.

[flydhest]

Olddog, I sort of agree, but . . . either way, it would have been nice to know they were going to charge me and to know at what price. Clearly I could have asked, but they were being nice and friendly.

I wouldn't have minded at all if they had been busy and said, "we can't squeeze you in today, we full up and there are lots of customers ahead of you." Despite what my mom used to say, I'm not really all that special. They have a right to make money.

xlbs--I think you make some good points, but the question about how does the mechanic explain to another customer that they're late because of letting someone else in the queue is independent of whether or not I'm charged for it. In fact, being charged for it, they had darn well better get it right, whereas if I'm not paying and it turns out to be a hassle, they can just hand it back to me and say "sorry, can't do it now". I would have respected the position that they have a list of repairs to do and they could add me when they were free.

There are, of course, always multiple sides to things. Your example is a great cautionary tale to one and all.

[xlbs]

some one else might have been made to wait is definitely out of the question, so I agree with you 100%. You should not be charged when someone else's concerns get mixed up with yours. My point is that the mechanic/owner always has to try to balance current customers' demands with those of new customers, and try to be a diplomat to figure that out. Sometimes you wins and sometimes you loses!

I think my second point was that there's a judgement call all 'round, and the mechanic/owner has to try to find the right balance.

In my cautionary tale what I should have done was said, "You know what, we can fix this, but to do it right I'm going to have to ask you to take a break and come back in an hour or so..."

And in your case, I think your willingness to respect the mechanic's schedule indicates just how reasonable you are. I kinda think they overcharged, especially since you clearly knew that the required installation was not going to be complicated. Great thread, by the way.

[William]

Good points being made on both sides.

I always try to be cognizant of how busy the shop is if I need something done. Even if they say they can fit me in I'll even ask if they're sure. I don't want to feel like I'm forcing it or taking advantage of my "regular" status. I can understand a shop owner/manager getting perturbed with a newbie who is demanding/expecting immediate service in front of scheduled/ regular customers. I was just trying to point out that IF you are able to cut them a little slack, you may win over a new customer. Or at least get some good word of mouth.
Believe me, I understand how difficult people can be. I worked a postal substation over a summer in college. Now I know why some folks go Postal.:eek:

William

[shaq-d]

Sheesh. Thanks, I needed a little affirmation. That shop is for da birds. Beats me why he didn't bring it to me in the first place...prolly didn't want me to see the mess he made. Ha ha, I made out...he's promised to "loosen" the top on his 15 yr Laphroaig :)

it's strange, why friends don't bring u their bikes. a bud of mine has a bike that was in horrible disrepair that i could have fixed for free, maybe $35 in parts. he brought it to the bike shop with a whopping $100 bill: new front brake, and tune-up. and all bottom-of-the-line stuff.

meanwhile when there's a computer problem...

sd

[shaq-d]

TT,

I'm sick of shops in the area. I got some Centaur level stuff for the steel bike I just built up yesterday. I didn't realize it took a diffferent BB tool from the other Campy stuff. No shops in the area had it, but one gave a friendly with a "y'all come back now, hear!" attitude and a "no problem, we can pop it on for you." $10 freakin' tool, turns out, they charge me $30 for the 5 minutes--literally--to put the damn thing in. I shoulda asked how much first.

wait a minute, i thought the new 2005 centaur stuff had the same BB tool as the one for chorus/record? it was upgraded...

sd

edit: ya, just checked it. here's the picture: http://www.campagnolo.com/pics/CE-bbset-black.jpg

and the info:
http://www.campagnolo.com/groupsets.php?gid=3&cid=8

it's clearly modeled after chorus/record, and not the old centaur bb, which is still available (AC-H)...
http://www.campagnolo.com/groupsets.php?gid=3&cid=8&pid=68