"Disguised" Equipment

[sspielman]

We often hear the argument that professional racers will use whatever they are given to use. However, this is very often not the case. So many times favorite or more suitable equipment is used and "disguised" to one degree or another. I think it would be interesting to compare our lists of observations that we have had either at races or other wise.....Here are a few:
*I have seen MANY Veloflex tubulars used by various riders and teams. Many times the label is obscured with a dark magic marker...
*Cyfac has made frames for Festina (labelled as Peugeot), Cofidis (labelled as MBK)
* David "Maybelline" Rebellin had a "Klein" for Gerolsteiner that was clearly made of the distinctive XLR8R tubing. The mechanic said that it was made by Wilier.
* I can't even count the number of shoes that I have seen with another brand's straps sewn on...
That is a start....

[Bruce K]

Tyler Hamilton raced many of his major climbing stages on Parlees labeled as Looks.

(editted because I just remembered-)

Lance and the "Posties" have used HED tri-blades, discs, and aerobars either with no labels, or Mavic labels.

BK

[Climb01742]

* David "Maybelline" Rebellin had a "Klein" for Gerolsteiner that was clearly made of the distinctive XLR8R tubing. The mechanic said that it was made by Wilier.

i had read that that "wilier" was actually a scott carbon.

lots of guys do TTs on walsers (like jan, painted as giant).

[jerk]

some times guys use some weird wheels too!
jerk

[sspielman]

A distinctive product like Lightweight or ADA wheels is pretty hard to disguise, but both of these products see extensive use. Michele Bartoli seemed to only be able to race on Cosmic Carbones whether with decals or not....
Re the earlier comment about Rebellin's Wilier being a Scott...That was last year....The disguised Klein was from a couple of seasons earlier....

[BumbleBeeDave]

First, several years ago CSC's Laurent Jalabert borrowing the Cervelo P3 Tyler was using on short notice when he had problems with his onw TT bike. He liked Tyler's P3 so much he used it in the TT. At least, I think I'm remembering it correctly. In any event, the Cervelo was rebadged as a LOOK, but with that distinctive seat tube it was impossible to disguise fully.

The other is that Ben spoke to our MS ride group 3 or 4 years ago and said he was sure some European racers were riding rebadged Serottas but he could not prove it. He said he was led to believe that because at least one European dealer had ordered custom frames specifically ordered UN-painted. The obvious possibility was that they were ordering them for pros who then had them painted in their own team and sponsor colors.

The last example is our own Bruce K, who has welded two Huffy Wal-Mart frames together in his garage and is having the whole thing painted as one of those high-zoot HED TT frames! . . . ;) :rolleyes:

BBDave

[Bruce K]

Dave;

The HED frame is a touchy subject right now.

It seems our freinds at FedEx managed to bend the rear derailleur hanger in shipping so the build is on hold. :crap:

It appeared that HED would have to get me another one from the manufactuer in Taiwan, but it is Chinese New Year. Can you say 2-3 week delivery? :crap: :crap:

Fortunately, the people at HED are pretty high on customer service and they took one off another frame and I should have it Monday/Tuesday. :banana: :banana:

Pictures will be posted when the build is complete. They will include the required white garage door background and maybe even a bit of snow in the foreground.

BK

[Kevan]

his bemmer so it passes as an Ottrott. That way he stays with his group ride. :D

[SGP]

Lances TT bike looked like it was a Litespeed Blade painted as a Trek. :cool:

[jerk]

one of the jerk's favorites is this one: gerard at cervelo always has the best people build his bikes. eg toby at hottubes builds mr. page's cross bikes, etc.
do those round tubes look familier?

[flyingscot]

BBD
I have heard of Litespeeds being used in the tour in the past but never
Serottas

I actually doubt many Euro pros have even heard of Serotta (no offence but the company is much bigger in the states than in Eur)

Pros obviously could not ride Ottrots given the distinctive carbon/ti joins
What adv does a legend have for a pro vs top level Al or CF?
It would be far easier/cheaper for a Euro pro to get a custom fit by Pegoretti

If they are good pros then they could get a custom frame made by almost any manufacturer
If they are struggling pros then I do not think they could afford to buy Serottas (at retail?) when no name alloys can be had for much less and could afford to be crashed etc

Maybe the guys who ordered the frames simply did not want paint??

[flyingscot]

Jerk
Me thinks that looks suspiciously like a Parlee Z3

[jerk]

nope...it's an aluminum bike. the jerk doesn't know who made it but he has his suspicions...
jerk

[PsyDoc]

Here's a shot of what is supposed to be a Lemond frame, but it looks a lot like a Colnago with a repaint.

http://www.grahamwatson.com/2001/dauphine/image10.html

[Climb01742]

nope...it's an aluminum bike. the jerk doesn't know who made it but he has his suspicions...
jerk

but it's sloping...wouldn't that rule out a noted lover of round tubes?

[David Kirk]

As I recall there was a certain someone that won the olympic Gold on a Serotta rebadged as something I don't remember.

Dave

[mad_mark]

As I recall there was a certain someone that won the olympic Gold on a Serotta rebadged as something I don't remember.

Dave

Atlanta Games. Pascal Richard on a Legend Ti badged as a Coppi. It was when he rode for MG Technogym.

Mark.

[SPINDAWG]

Heres a picture of Nathan O'Neil's Colnago Dream using his favorite bar setup.

[Bruce K]

Those look like STella Azzuras, not Dedas.

BK

[Climb01742]

bruce, look at the catseye mount...just to the right of the mount...the letters "ton"...great photo spindawg!

[Bruce K]

I see it now Climb.

Everything else is definitely S-A including the carbon spacers.

It looks like the S-A logo on the bars was painted around to blaock out other stuff. I guess they hand painted the logo on the bars.

Good work in any case.

BK

[jerk]

stella azzurra doesn't make round bars. deda does hence the re-badging.
jerk

[vandeda]

stella azzurra doesn't make round bars. deda does hence the re-badging.
jerk

they don't?

http://www.stellaazzurra.com/product.php?prod_id=sta05

that's the bar on my bike ... and it sure seems round to me :confused:

However ... I agree that those do look like re-badged bars. Now, I may have missed this part is ... why? Why do they do this? Because they are sponsored by certain manufacturers, so they have those company logos on their parts/bikes instead of what's actually being used? If so, isn't that a slap in the face to the manufacturers who are sponsoring them? "Thanks for your money, but I don't like you're products ... give me that Deda Newton instead :p "

Dan

[wheelworks]

Dan,

The Stella bars all have some sort of flat section at the bend.

[dirtdigger88]

I am not sure what you are looking at but those bars dont look round to me at all-

Jason

[Spicoli]

Vuelta 04, some Postal TT bikes used Zipp disc rear w/Bontrager logos. You can see it in the start house footage from OLN. They had the new dimples and all.

[wheelworks]

In his last years Toni Romminger was riding a Serotta.

p.s. hot of the Press. Levi was and will be riding on Specialized TT bike. The picture of him in the wind tunel is a specialized bike. one of the reasons Levi is riding for Gerolsteiner is Specialized wanted an American riding their bike.

[vandeda]

Wheelworks/Dirtdigger,

Ahhhhhhhhhh .... my bad ... i wasn't thinking at the moment ... i was thinking the shape of the tubing for some odd reason, and not the fact that the bar was round vice anatomic. i was taking jerk's comment to the picture posted too literally (in which case i can only see the shape of the tubing ... and not the bar). my mistake ... yet another brain fart :)

Dan

[jerk]

the jerk is pretty sure that bikes a walser, or a great copy of, (improvement on?) a walser.....let's see the two side by side again:


http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=6360

[dirtdigger88]

Dan- don't worry about it- you have to let the gas out some how!!!!

jason

[yeehawfactor]

didn't dario used to make some of cipo's "specializeds"?

[wheelworks]

the jerk is pretty sure that bikes a walser, or a great copy of, (improvement on?) a walser.....let's see the two side by side again:


http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=6360


My Specialized rep just returned from meeting at head office. Specialized is paying for the testing and designing for all the bikes. The bikes wil not be the Walser or Synard will pull the Specialized name and money from the team. Team Gerolsteiner will be riding all Specialized bikes and only a few will be on a custom. Next year the testing with Levi will be next years frames.

[jerk]

you know that is really wise for them to do that. long gone are the days when bike companies sponsered bicycles to raise the popularity of their "brand" and sell their "image". it seems people watching cycling, particularly in the states, are much more savy. (look at this forum) they want to know exactly what the pros are actually riding.....the madone sl is a fine bike but would trek sell as many of them were lance not riding it? one really couldn't imagine huffy or murray (or there modern equivalents eg pacific) signing on as equipment sponsors for a pro-team....the jerk thinks that is great if levi is on a specialized....
as an aside ullrich has an addendum in his contract stating that if his personal staff can prove a competitive adavantage he is allowed to use mnon-sponsership equipment.....no one else on telekom (or for that matter in cycling to the jerk's knowledge) has that written in to their contract....part of the jerk thinks it stems from the whole powerplay between rudy prevange and walter godefroot...but it did mean jan was on a walser and the rest of the guys were on giants.....gerolsteiner seemed pretty lax last year in enforcing their sponsorship agreements....walsers were the only tt bikes and rebellin used a scott instead of the willier he was meant to be on.....lots of lightweight wheels too...instead of the sponsors.

jerk

[saab2000]

Someone mentioned that Serotta is not as well known in Europe as in the US. That is true, but Serotta is far from unknown. In Switzerland Serotta has a presence. It is generally believed that Pascal Richard won the '96 Olympic road race on a Serotta. There have been many women racers in Switzerland who have won significant competitions on Serottas.

About 5 miles from where I lived was a Serotta dealer. If the guy had not been such an idiot he would have gotten more business from me. Nothing to do with Serotta of course. He outfitted many riders from my area. But he was a jerk. No offense to our jerk.

Anyway, I think among knowledgeable cyclists in Europe Serotta is not an unknown.

[Climb01742]

My Specialized rep...

it's still hard to imagine "my specialized rep" selling specialized...but he'd definitely give his good buds at WW the straight scoop...

[93legendti]

Someone mentioned that Serotta is not as well known in Europe as in the US. That is true, but Serotta is far from unknown. In Switzerland Serotta has a presence. It is generally believed that Pascal Richard won the '96 Olympic road race on a Serotta. There have been many women racers in Switzerland who have won significant competitions on Serottas.

About 5 miles from where I lived was a Serotta dealer. If the guy had not been such an idiot he would have gotten more business from me. Nothing to do with Serotta of course. He outfitted many riders from my area. But he was a jerk. No offense to our jerk.

Anyway, I think among knowledgeable cyclists in Europe Serotta is not an unknown.

My Legend Ti was with me in Majorca during the Majorca Challenge 3 years in a row. We stayed at the same hotel as Banesto and Assics. We would leave around the time the pros were getting ready to leave. More than a few would come up to me and tell me what a great bike my Serotta was. When I asked the pros about how they liked their Pinarellos, they kind of shrugged as if to say they only rode them because they had to...

[wheelworks]

When I lived in Switzerland we would ride over the mountain to the next valley, there in the town was a Serotta dealer. Last time I was in Zurich I saw 2 messangers riding on a Serotta. My friend Michael Frank at EXTRATOUR in Frieburg Germany does very well with Serotta.

[jerk]

for a while wasn't a shop in switzerland serotta's largest dealer?

[wheelworks]

for a while wasn't a shop in switzerland serotta's largest dealer?

in Geneva.

Now the shop in London (cyclefit) I believe is the largest Serotta dealer in Europe

[wheelworks]

didn't dario used to make some of cipo's "specializeds"?


Specialized made 35 frames for Cipo and the 34th well was almost perfect except for 1 mm longer toptube. That was what Cipo wanted..... just 1 mm longer. Specialized has a custom shop in the U.S.A that makes the frames

[jerk]

here's the thing guys. serotta, pegoretti, parlee, seven etc. are different than the big guys...as wheelworks said, specialized used a custom amercian shop to build cipo's bikes. cannondale was known to use custom european shops to build some of their bikes back in the early years of saeco sponsorship....it was more about geography and getting the ridiculous requirements cipo demanded in frames to him on time. ..the majority of these big bike companies who indulge themselves in equipping professional bicycle teams are not what you you would expect.....their bikes are designed and engineered by a combination orf engineers and product managers and then produced often at factories not even owned by the same company.....cervelo is a great example of this....they design bikes and sell bikes..they don't build bikes. firms like specialized, trek, giant and cannondale who in general own their own factories (be they in the us or asia), are generally not geared up to build custom made to measure frames. there are three ways around this: first, maintain a long term commitment with a star cyclist and have one of your stock bikes be designed first and foremost for his needs and secondarily for the needs of the team.....maybe you'll make a bunch of money selling these bike to the public (eg trek and lance and discovery/postal) maybe they'll be a loss leader that'll help sell the other bikes in your line, the second way is to employ smaller builders to build the bicycles to your specifications for the pro riders who need them. these bikes may serve as prototypes for what the big off-shore factory will eventually make for mass consumption....eg gt's early efforts with lotto-mobistar, or the bikes might remain as one off weird things with not marketable potential....eg cipo's weird aluminum specializeds. the jerk wants one but who the hell else would buy one when their carbon bikes are more comfortable, lighter, techier and handle better in every situation except a 60km/h+ field sprint? pegoretti, walser and spin-system in germany are examples of those types of firms.....serotta for a long time was one as well.
the third option and most common one is just to put your team on whatever garbage you actually make. remember every great race has been won more than once on mediocre bicycles. to the jerk its nice to see the big american companies committing themselves to producing the world's best race bikes for the world's best riders.....
jerk

[jerk]

oh in case you were wondering, spin-system makes carbon frames that sort of look like giants....when erik zabel got into trouble for riding his aluminum "giant" and the pictures started appearing in the german press, he had these guys make him a frame....the jerk doesn't know much about them...but he likes to think they're some crazy off-shoot of the old east german fes company that made all those great track bikes the east germans used to kick the crap out of everyone on the bahn.....(the fes bikes are crazy, 65mm front wheel spacing, super narrow q factors and $10,000 rear discs.)
here's a link www.spin-system.de/frameset.htm
jerk

[wheelworks]

[QUOTE=.as wheelworks said, specialized used a custom amercian shop to build cipo's bikes.

a slight correction. The custom shop is owned by Specialized. A project for next year.............

but no Ti... hhhmmm maybe they can get Serotta to build a frame for them. They almost had that sizing system a few years back to work with Serotta and Specialized dealers.

[jerk]

[QUOTE=.as wheelworks said, specialized used a custom amercian shop to build cipo's bikes.

a slight correction. The custom shop is owned by Specialized. A project for next year.............

but no Ti... hhhmmm maybe they can get Serotta to build a frame for them. They almost had that sizing system a few years back to work with Serotta and Specialized dealers.


true. wonder what happened? seemed like a good idea, "serotta fit light". stupid bike shops would be well served to bring elements of serotta's fit philosophy into floor fittings for the regular folks.....it might mean we'd see more people riding their bikes....or at least riding their road bikes on the hoods instead of on the tops all the time.....
as for the jerk, he'd just like to be riding his bike :confused:

[Climb01742]

where does merckx fit into all of this? i think we all have a lot of respect for merckx. i love my MXL and team sc. i assume they were both built in belgium at eddy's factory. as was, i assume, my recent custom corsa (which BTW they mislabeled with an MXL decal...guess it was applied after a belgian lunch :beer: ). litespeed used to make eddy's ti frames. and if i remember correctly, the jerk said an italian company makes eddy's carbons. merckx seems to have found a way to have its cake and eat it too (though eddy sure has slimmed down :rolleyes: )...they are clearly a mass market builder but somehow, maybe thru eddy's aura, merckx isn't lumped in with trek, cannondale, specialized...so who makes the merckx that lotto rides? :confused:

[jerk]

merckx has a small factory in meise belgium. the steel frames and the alloy frames are made there. the carbons are made in italy, his forks are made by easton wherever easton makes such things and his tubing is made by easton probably in some other place.....merckx is a small builder with a strong ability to provide custom frames and special designs for special athletes....eddy is a little bigger than someone like pegoretti but a little smaller than pinarello or colnago who in turn are MUCH smaller than trek, giant, specialized and the like....eddy's geometry has always been pretty much spot on and his bikes are great....as an asides his ti bikes were made by litespeed but they were not litespeeds. eddy had them use his jigs and miters and tubes and design for his models....in many ways they were the best of both worlds; great craftsmanship and great design! plus it allowed eddy to escape some weird tariffs on bringing "strategic metals" (raw ti tubes) into the e.e.c

jerk

[wheelworks]

so who makes the merckx that lotto rides? :confused:[/QUOTE]


Hey Climb, Lotto is now Davitamon-Lotto and they are riding on Ridley Frames.

[jerk]

ridleys rule....that kid knows what's up. 28 years old and taking the cycling industry by storm first in europe and hopefully here in the states as well. jerk talked to ridley's man at the milan show. watch out for this guy...he gets it. great value, great product, great design and stock geometrys that insures a near custom fit.....talk to ww for details.
jerk

[93legendti]

ridleys rule....that kid knows what's up. 28 years old and taking the cycling industry by storm first in europe and hopefully here in the states as well. jerk talked to ridley's man at the milan show. watch out for this guy...he gets it. great value, great product, great design and stock geometrys that insures a near custom fit.....talk to ww for details.
jerk


Let me guess, at the store you work at, you sell Ridley, right? (I know your store sells Merckx, Colnago and Pegs, the bikes you usually gush about.) Do you ever talk about American bike companies--like Serotta?

[Roy E. Munson]

Let me guess, at the store you work at, you sell Ridley, right? (I know your store sells Merckx, Colnago and Pegs, the bikes you usually gush about.) Do you ever talk about American bike companies--like Serotta?

Read the last sentence of the jerk's post. I think if the jerk got on there and said wheels are round, you'd argue that they were square.

[93legendti]

Really? I did a check when he posted his website, traced his email to a bike store and called them up and found they sell all the bikes Jerk pushes here...but they don't sell Serotta. Why come to a Serotta site and gush about the non-Serotta bikes your store sells?

[coylifut]

Read the last sentence of the jerk's post. I think if the jerk got on there and said wheels are round, you'd argue that they were square.

I second that

[Roy E. Munson]

Let me guess, at the store you work at, you sell Ridley, right?

They don't. He pointed readers to his direct competition. Both are quite good shops whose employees post here relatively frequently and with good info.

[jerk]

the jerk does not sell ridley or serotta. he owns three serottas and lusts after a ridley.... 93legend ti, why do you waste your time? if you have nothing to add to this discussion other than vindictive attacks on someone you do not even know, who doesn't know you, why don't you go to an aclu meeting and find some people you really can hate. the jerk has done his best to refrain from mentioning products he sells at his company that he will not mention. give it a break. if you're looking for a fight, go pick on munson. he's a lot tougher than the jerk and probably a foreigner too.

jerk

[Big Dan]

Don't feel bad Señor Jerk, some people just can handle information too well.
In my case I'm considered anti-Serotta because I didn't agree with the moderator. When actually I have 2 Serottas , bought the first one around '92 and have endorsed the brand to more people that I can remember. Anyways keep the good information coming..I'm out for a while............... :bike:

[coylifut]

the jerk does not sell ridley or serotta. he owns three serottas and lusts after a ridley.... 93legend ti, why do you waste your time? if you have nothing to add to this discussion other than vindictive attacks on someone you do not even know, who doesn't know you, why don't you go to an aclu meeting and find some people you really can hate. the jerk has done his best to refrain from mentioning products he sells at his company that he will not mention. give it a break. if you're looking for a fight, go pick on munson. he's a lot tougher than the jerk and probably a foreigner too.

jerk

before the whiney @ss rebutal starts, could you compare the Ridley Scandium ride with that of a Merckx Team SC. And, which Ridley did Gert Omloop ride the year he wore the Belgium Champion's jersey. I especially like the paint on that one. I've been lusting for a Ridley too, firts a cross bike, now a road bike..

[jerk]

the jerk hasn't ridden the ridley...the cost of construction is certainly lower than that of the team sc, and the design, geometry and the little tweaks on eddy's bike make it one of the best riding bikes around. but take it from the jerk, ridley knows what it is doing too.....the jerk thinks gert was on a damocles carbon bike.....all the ridleys save the super damocles are made in taiwan....do not take this as a bad thing. they are painted, finished and inspected as well as designed in belgium. this allows ridley to bring a great bike out for a great price....the jerk hates euro shock!
now, the jerk is speaking out of turn since he hasn't ridden the ridley but he suspects the ridley would be a little less....ahem "refined" than the team sc.
jerk

[wheelworks]

the jerk hates euro shock!
now, the jerk is speaking out of turn since he hasn't ridden the ridley but he suspects the ridley would be a little less....ahem "refined" than the team sc.
jerk


I would agree.... The finishing quality of Eddy is far nicer than the Ridley.... but then there is the Euro shock part!!!!!! Eddy.. nice bike... Ridley... nice paint

[93legendti]

the jerk does not sell ridley or serotta. he owns three serottas and lusts after a ridley.... 93legend ti, why do you waste your time? if you have nothing to add to this discussion other than vindictive attacks on someone you do not even know, who doesn't know you, why don't you go to an aclu meeting and find some people you really can hate. the jerk has done his best to refrain from mentioning products he sells at his company that he will not mention. give it a break. if you're looking for a fight, go pick on munson. he's a lot tougher than the jerk and probably a foreigner too.

jerk

I am not looking for a fight, but a little truth would be a welcome change. Why do you come to Serotta's site to talk up non-Serotta's? You gush here about bikes you sell: Merckx, Peg and Colnago, (among others). At least admit you sell them so people can decide for themselves if they want to believe your advertorials. (Like saying ADA wheels are the best in the world---c'mon, you import them!)

The truth is never vindictive...to me it looks like you are a shill for your bike shop.

[jerk]

well you're wrong. the jerk is a "shill" for himself and products he likes. if you can not trust the people on this forum to be true to their opinions don't listen and you can go away. the jerk is not selling anything. the jerk will not sell you anything. the jerk is an all-knowing wise-*** bike geek with a penchant for opionated banter about this and that.....if you are basing your purchasing decisions solely based upon what a guy named "the jerk" who won't tell you anything about himself or who he is or what he does or even what his real name is.....the jerk doesn't think 93legend ti is going to be able to save you.
the jerk gives advice based on what he likes not what any bike shop is pushing or wants to sell or makes money on. if that was the case the jerk would be continually selling you on $5 tubes....not waxing poetically about walsers, custom fes track bikes, richard sachs bikes and other unobtanium products the jerk couldn't get you even if he wanted too.
jerk

[Tom Byrnes]

The truth is never vindictive...to me it looks like you are a shill for your bike shop.

93legendti:

The Jerk (and anyone else) can certainly give his/her opinions about bikes he knows. Many of us reading the Forum want educated, well-explained opinions, insights and comments from experienced and knowledgeable persons. The Jerk's comments and opinions are always welcomed by all of us.

"A shill for his bike shop"???? The Jerk has never advertised or directed people to his bike shop. Instead, he referred readers to Wheelworks in this thread BEFORE you made your mean-spirited comments. So, why do you make such a false statement?

"A little truth would be a welcome change."

Tom

[dave thompson]

This petty sniping and trash-talking is finally getting to me. I don't give a s**t where anyone works, if they give informed opinions, entertaining posts, and truth as they see it, it works for me. Jerk, Wheelworks, E-Ritchie, Dave Kirk, Kirk Pacenti, and more, all are in the bike industry and we know who they are and what they do. I learn something everytime one of them speaks or presents an opinion. I like it, therefore I read it. If you don't like someone on this forum don't read their posts, but STOP this childish petulant bickering. It doesn't become us.

[dirtdigger88]

watch out or 93legendti will tell the moderator on you- thats his style- I welcome imput on bikes- ALL bikes- 93- why are you such a horse's a##. If all of the people who you seem to disagree with left this site tomorrow to go to another site, and all I was left with was your petty whining- I would leave as well- why don't you get it- you are one of the only people who have issues with the jerk- you are sorta the anti- jerk- I know Mini Jerk!! Jerk Lite!! Jerk O##!!! Why not crawl over to Bicycling- I am sure they would be impressed with you and your wonderful bike collection

Jason

[H.Frank Beshear]

What Dave said. Opinions and advice are freely given on this forum, and some of them stink. If someone has an issue with a forum member take it offline, or better yet ignore them. Its so easy to justify our petty positions when we can hide behind a wall of anonymity. Petty sniping and name calling solve nothing and contribute nothing. I enjoy the educated give and take of opinions. On this forum we have some very articulate and knowledgeable people that have been willing to share what they have learned. Civil decorum does not mean you can't argue, or that you have to agree with everything someone says. But it does mean we don't stoop to childish behaviour, and petty name calling. My opinion Frank

[dirtdigger88]

Frank (et. al) I agree we (I?) need to be more civil- I just can't stand when people think that they are so smart compared to everyone else that they feel they need to censor what others read- I am a big boy (you can tell that because I don't ride a short stem) I decided to buy a Serotta before I ever even knew this site existed. I love the jerks post- but guess what he has never swayed me to buy anything- I buy what I want- I think it is a lot like the thought police at the FCC- ok so you don't like what someone says- turn it off- I dont need the thought police to censor what I see and hear to protect me. I don't need a short stemmer to play moderator- does he feel it is his job? his duty? I don't need it!!! I am tired of people "Reporting" what they dont like to the site moderator- GROW UP!!!! This is not how the real world works- If you step on what others say or think be careful- the thought police could be at your door next-

Jason

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . (but not originally by me! ;) ) that “Opinions are like a**holes--everyone has one and they ALL stink.”

So get out your nose clips, ‘cause here’s mine . . .

<<If you don't like someone on this forum don't read their posts, but STOP this childish petulant bickering. It doesn't become us.>>

First, Dave is absolutely right. It DOESN’T become us.

Second, the Jerk is indeed a bike shop employee of a large bike shop in the Boston area. It is not Wheelworks. For the moment, I will not go farther than that.

I certainly wish to respect the Jerk’s privacy--or the privacy of anyone on the Forum--but I believe he has miscalculated in not acknowledging his employment connection. It has ended up having the (most likely) unintended consequence of creating doubts about his veracity and has diminished the benefit of his very significant knowledge of all aspects of cycling that he freely shares with us.

Lastly, so the Jerk works for a bike shop. So does Wheelworks. So does TiDesigns. So does Bill Bove. So do others here I can’t remember at the moment . . . So what? I don’t believe that relationship necessarily colors their opinions about items or brands they sell or don’t sell. I have seen the Jerk express opinions about brands he sells and brands he does NOT sell. Same goes for the others. I don’t think I have ever read any of them expressing their opinions in terms I would call being a “shill” . . . and trust me, as a journalist with 24 years of experience dealing with publicists of all types, my “shill-dar” is tuned to a high pitch! :rolleyes:

I think we should all get back to talking about bikes and cycling, and just put this little discussion down as one more reason that the only REAL conflict-of-interest is one that’s kept secret. It grows in hiding like black mold, then before you know it, bursts through the panelling, starts eating your kid‘s flesh as they play with their X-Box, and the fire department has to rescue you all in rubber suits before the health department sends in the bulldozers. Yuck!

BBDave

[vaxn8r]

Lastly, so the Jerk works for a bike shop. So does Wheelworks. So does TiDesigns. So does Bill Bove. So do others here I can’t remember at the moment . . . So what?
Add me to that list. Oh wait, I spend all my money at bike shops so I can support others who work there. Dang it! I always get that backwards.

[WickedWheels]

I don't think The Jerk has been pumping up his products for the sake of increasing his sales.

That being said... if a shop employee feels the need to post on a site that has specific rules about self-promotion it's only fair that if he promotes something that his shop sells that he warns the readers of that fact. Just so that people can interpret the review with an opened mind. Within reason, of course...

For example, I REALLY like Bontrager wheels. Personally, I think that it comes from my background in wheel building and that I've made a fair and unbiased judgement. But it could be that as an employee of a large Trek dealer I was very educated on those wheels, as opposed to the Velomax brand, who never made it a point to teach me about their product.

Personally, I think The Jerk contributes well to this forum. I don't think that he promotes the products that he sells as much as he sells that products that he promotes... but what do I know... It's 8:30 on a saturday and it's time to go out.

[duke]

What Dave T. said.

[musgravecycles]

There we've gone and ruined one of the best threads as of late. Could we stop bickering and get back to the topic. Here's a fun pro story:

Steve Driscoll of Velomax, who used to be one of Mavics big guys, was telling me one time (after he was with Velomax) that Aqua-Sapone almost lost their wheel sponsorship with Mavic because Mario used ADA's in a couple of races. They came to the trailer after the race and grabbed all of the wheels off all of the bikes. They told him that if he didn't stop using those wheels they were pulling sponsorship. Mario replied that if they could make wheels as good as those he would be happy to use them. Anyway they eventually worked it out.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . considering how high emotions must run during an actual event.

But what DOES surprise me is that large sponsor companies--ESPECIALLY one connected with cycling in the first place--would not have the smarts to consider beforehand that this situation might come up and have a policy in place to deal with it.

If I were Mavic I would be carefully considering what kind of exposure I would be wanting to buy with my sponsorships dollars (Francs? Euros?). On the one hand, really knowledgeable cyclo-philes are going to notice those are not really Mavics on Super Mario’s steed. But on the other hand, if they let him ride what he wants, just slap some Mavic stickers on them, and then he wins, they are gonna get a heck of a lot of publicity, which I thought was what they were paying for . . .

BBDave

[Climb01742]

i'd guess it's hard to get an entire team of pro athletes -- whose contracts depend on their results -- all agreeing on equipment. team management makes sponsorship agreements, often based more on money than quality, and then they tell racers...here, go race on this and you'd better win. i might try to sneak my favorite wheels or bars or whatever in there too if my next contract were riding on it. could you imagine an NBA team telling all its players, hey, you gotta wear these shoes and only these shoes...

[Tony Edwards]

if you are basing your purchasing decisions solely based upon what a guy named "the jerk" who won't tell you anything about himself or who he is or what he does or even what his real name is.....the jerk doesn't think 93legend ti is going to be able to save you.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Well put, Your Royal Jerkiness!

[Tom]

I don't think 99% of the ridership out there could tell, other than the labels, what a pro is riding. Those that can probably ain't going to base their buying decision on what their fave pro is on. A sponsor doesn't have much to lose with a rebadge if the guy riding does well, I'd think.

Unless there's a motor on it and it's pretty obvious that the "MBX" is really a Harley-Davidson.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . so THAT’S why you always manage to drop me on the hills! I wondered why you never seemed to have to pedal a bike that big! :crap:

I guess I should have been tipped off by the black leather jersey and bibs, though . . . ;)

BBDave

[Tom]

And you thought I was farting.

[shinomaster]

Let me guess, at the store you work at, you sell Ridley, right? (I know your store sells Merckx, Colnago and Pegs, the bikes you usually gush about.) Do you ever talk about American bike companies--like Serotta?


Dear smarty pants,

It just so happens that the shop at which the Jerk works is the shop that sold me my Serotta. And the Jerk is quite often to be found speaking highly of the Serotta bicycle company. It also happens that his shop sells almost every popular brand of bicycle so it is to be expected that a bike he likes, or does not is sold at his shop. Wake up buddy!!!

:banana: