Man, am I going to get hammered for this wheel question

[Tom]

Bang for the buck: best tubular wheelset.

Also: those Tufo 'tubular clinchers' a gimmick or can I get as many miles out of them as a set of Michelin Pro Race?

[Matt Barkley]

Campy Nucleons = Best bang for the buck if you can fond them.
Campy Nuetrons = Best bang for more bucks.

(You can get these with Shimano cassette bodies installed)

[e-RICHIE]

doesn't anyone "believe in" wheelbuilders anymore?

[93legendti]

Mavic K's -- Pino was right.
Speeddreams-- Dave Thomas' wheels are the best deal around.

[David Kirk]

Go on Ebay and get yourself a set of NOS Mavic GP4's or Paris Roubiax's, lace them into a set of DA or Camp hubs and you'll have a very light, very smooth, and very fast wheels not not much dough.

I stand with E Richie.........what happened to lacing up a set of wheels? They haven't always come out of the box ready to ride. It's easy and fun to do.

Dave

[coylifut]

I'm with richie on this one. I know that every town down doesn't have a master wheel-smith, but if yours does, have him build you a set. Nicely hand built wheels using ubiquitous parts can be built up as light as a set of pre-builts. (not that a few hundred grams should matter). The real advantage, is any wheel-smith worth the $ will offer life time truing and spoke replacement. When you are riding 10k miles a year, this feature will really come in handy. The only time low spoke count fancy wheels are faster is in clean air. That means you are either off the front, off the back or by yourself.

[e-RICHIE]

i'm really close to typing a website link...

[Russell]

Go on Ebay and get yourself a set of NOS Mavic GP4's or Paris Roubiax's, lace them into a set of DA or Camp hubs and you'll have a very light, very smooth, and very fast wheels not not much dough.

I stand with E Richie.........what happened to lacing up a set of wheels? They haven't always come out of the box ready to ride. It's easy and fun to do.

Dave

Look at kid's shoes; all velcro and slip-ons. If you never learn how to lace up a pair of shoes, how can you ever lace up a set of wheels? :confused:

[zap]

I agree, get some hubs, spokes and decent tubular rims and build a set.

I don't really like this current prebuilt craze. Seems like it limits rim choices unless you want to buy a thousand or so rims from the far east.

[e-RICHIE]

you don't get your frames out of a box.
you don't get your forks out of a box.
don't get your wheels out of a box.



well, two out of three ain't bad!

[LegendRider]

I just wrote Joe Young a check this morning...

[hooverone]

While I still agree go handbuilt I had my local expert build up a set of wheels and what I have is an expensive set of wheels that are preety true but he (wheel builder) can not completely true them there is one spot on the rear wheel where it is has some side to side are not true and I have bruought them in 2 times and same output each time, I went with dt rims dt hubs and dt spokes not inexpensive but I feel like the rim could be of had a defect.

But if it is only a little out of true in one spot (side to side) does it really matter will it make me any slower, I am slow enough.

My old wheels these replaced were about 12 years old and were way out of true up and down l

Should I call the wheel builder and try to get the wheels trued no matter what even if they have to replace the rim or just say, lets ride and forget about having them perfectly true?

Jim

[PsyDoc]

...as long as you have no affiliation to the website, then it should be o.k....right?

[hooverone]

By the way I tried some speed dreams and they were not rigid enough flex side to side I would try some wheels from Odds and Ends instead. I spoke to Mike Garcia from Odds and Ends I he really knows his stuff seems like a great wheel builder.

http://oddsandendos.safeshopper.com/


Jim

[toaster]

... The only time low spoke count fancy wheels are faster is in clean air. That means you are either off the front, off the back or by yourself.


You know, the above got me thinking...why is it that so many riders I know who never go anywhere without a group of some sort, meaning they are rarely out in the wind for long if they can help it, are concerned so much about light wheels and frames and wheels with low spoke counts and aero profiles when they spend so much time sheltered.

Now, they'll tell me it's all about any advantage they can get because of their disadvantaged climbing ability where they claim the equipment helps.

Then I read on this board a post from a member who basically says that unless you're 8% bodyfat weight savings on components are not the main issue. He was talking about gearing and lighter drivetrain systems.

So, really, do we spend a lot of money on light weight and aero parts and then hide in groups out of the wind?

Just a thought, not an indictment. :cool:

[e-RICHIE]

"While I still agree go handbuilt I had my local expert build up a set of wheels and what I have is an expensive set of wheels that are preety true but he (wheel builder) can not completely true them there is one spot on the rear wheel where it is has some side to side are not true and I have bruought them in 2 times and same output each time, I went with dt rims dt hubs and dt spokes not inexpensive but I feel like the rim could be of had a defect."


"cosmetic" true-ness is a myth and overblown; you want
even tension on all spokes. rims are never perfect. it's the
builder's task to tame the wheel using tension. uneven
true-ness is a factor based on rim maunufacturing.

otoh, nearly ALL out-of-the-box wheels are bombproof
because (listen!!) the rims on those wheels are often
heavier and have cross sections that are so strong that
the main purpose of the spoke is to seperate the hub
from the rim.

[Ozz]

Reflex rims, chorus hubs, revo spokes.....

I built the front wheel and had a shop do the rear...it was my first attempt at wheel building. They also checked the tension on the first...said it wasn't bad for a first timer :)

All in around $300

Now I just need to mount the Dugast's from senor jerk! Maybe this weekend...tufo tape or glue????

[dirtdigger88]

this guy sell tubular but I hear he is a jerk



jason

[dave thompson]

You folks in the NorthEast have a great wheelbuilder in your own backyard. Frank Corda in Long Island has built wheels for years, is very reasonably priced and has wonderful service. He's built wheels for me, and Jeff Weir uses him too. wheels513@yahoo.com

[zap]

e-Richie, my trusty mechanic from years ago used to check rims on a granite slab before building them up. If the rim did not sit flat, or more likely, had a high spot of more than a mm or so, he would send it back.

He left town to make pedals so I have a big, thick slab of machined al that serves me well for this application.

And your right. Even spoke tension is important for long life wheels.

[Serotta PETE]

www.youngwheels.com

Great Wheels.......................!!! designed for you and your purpose...

No need to go anywhere else - - - - except your LBS of course!


PETE

[Jeff Weir]

Dave is right, Frank corda does a GREAT job. He is extremely meticulous. I've had 3 sets of wheels built by him and they have not needed any adjustments over the course of about 12K miles. A great guy building great wheels!

[Big Dan]

I like handbuilt wheels but those ADA look nice..... what was that link??

:D

[dirtdigger88]

I like handbuilt wheels but those ADA look nice..... what was that link??

:D



Was this what you wanted Dan?

Jason

[Big Dan]

Thanks, Dirt.....

free.. free.. set him free............ :D

:bike:

[dirtdigger88]

.

[Matt Barkley]

I love building wheels too. I just think Campy HAND BUILT pre-builts are awesome. A fully engineered wheel. Asymetric rears.... for our crazy dishing on modern wheels I just have to side with a fully engineerd rear - can't wait for the Fulcrums!!.... I love my Mach2s, SSC's, 330s, 280s, Ambrosio Metamorphisis, Campy Sigmas (keep in mind NONE of these rims are still produced) The quality of todays rims (most) - poor quality control and the like - make many poor choices for 9 and 10 speed dishing in the rear and long term durability when compared to top quality Campy HAND pre-built wheels. Keep in mind most of the after market pre-builts are not the best of quality - and many are hand-built... (Albeit some by sweat-shop labor) - Enjoy riding your wheels who-ever made ' em, machine, or hand, out of box, or New England custom jobbers! - Cheers :beer: - Matt

[admin]

we better watch out the post- **** is out and about- you know who you are

Jason

Yes, I do know who I am.

[93legendti]

By my count, Stephano Garzelli (Giro 2003), Pantani (Giro 2003), Tyler (Giro 2002) and Jan (TDF 2001) all crashed on ADA's (or the similar Lightweight's) in mountain stages of major tours. I think I will stay away from those wheels!

[Sandy]

A very bad choice of words. I was surprised. :confused: :butt:

Sandy

[sspielman]

By my count, Stephano Garzelli (Giro 2003), Pantani (Giro 2003), Tyler (Giro 2002) and Jan (TDF 2001) all crashed on ADA's (or the similar Lightweight's) in mountain stages of major tours. I think I will stay away from those wheels!


...Or at least stay away from the major Tours! (winking face purposely omitted)

[dirtdigger88]

I was not refering to Alyson- she knows that

Jason

[William]

As someone who has had multitudes of problems with wheels, hand built seems the way to go. At least it's what I have had the most luck with.
Now, what is this place you all keep talking about? ;)

William

[Too Tall]

Ozz, listen bub I'm only going to say this ONCE. Using TUFO tape with Dugasts (on the road anyway) would be soooooooo uncool. Back away from the tape and take a deep breath....that's right...smell the glue....deeeeper...deeeeeeeeper.

Ummm, aren't Zipp wheels handbuilt ;) Ooo, so are nimble. Doh!

[chrisroph]

You've got to use glue with dugasts. I never understood why people use tape.

Handbuilts are great. I've got a couple of sets of 32/28 handbuilts and I take pride in making a good set of wheels.

I also love the nucleons; they are light, strong, ride great, and a seem to be pretty aero. I've got one set of clinchers and a set of tubulars I got used for a few hundred $$ upon which I mounted some sweet NOS vittoria CX/CG I had put away. The offset rear rim helps balance left/right spoke tension, which is a weakness of handbuilts. The zipp 303's are great for special races. Those babies fly. The ksiriums are very strong but, if I were to let a set of my wheels go, it would be them. I'd sell them to some really big brute. They are overkill for me.

[Chief]

After buying a set of handbuilt wheels by Joe Young, I'll never have anyother wheelset. As e-Riche and Joe Young say the secret to wheel life is uniform spokes tension.

[e-RICHIE]

snipped:
"...the secret to wheel life is uniform spokes tension."






the secret to a wheel with integrity is even spoke tension.

the secret to life is
www.twizzlers.com

[Chief]

I just got in from a cold ride after which my toes were numb, my fingers stiff and apparently my head (brain) was colder than I thought. :confused:

[Ti Designs]

OK, best bang for the buck in tubulars....

That's about as open a question as I've seen on this board, what are you looking to do with these wheels? What are your strengths or weaknesses as a rider, how much do you weight, do ride light or are you a lard-***?

For overall ride and servicability I agree with most on the forum that you can't beat handbuilt wheels. For aerodynamics I can find lots of wheels that handbuilt wheels can't touch. For light wheels you can look at handbuilt wheels with specialty parts or you can look at light prebuilt wheels.


And as long as everybody else is poking at the moderator, I think I'll take my own shot. I just ordered a new frame from this company that makes great bikes, but the names are a little weird. Here's a link: http://www.serotta.com

[CalfeeFly]

If you go handbuilt look into the Ambrosio Crono F-20 rim. It is very strong and very light. Built with King Hubs and 32 spokes they come in at the high 1400 gram range or low 1500 depending on variables. This rim was an old favorite of the peloton before all the boutique wheels.

[theprep]

Tom

According to BigMac, one of the best tubular rims made is the Fir ST120. Mad-Mark is (or was) selling 3 pairs of these rims in the Classifieds of this here forum.

Build them yourself, it is satisfying and something to be proud of. Sheldon Browns website has some fantastic instructions. If you don't want to do it yourself, the LBS would/should only charge approx. $50/pair.

Total wheel weight and cost would be as follows:

Training Wheels
fr rim Fir ST120 400
rr rim Fir ST120 400 $75
fr hub Speedcific 85 $50
rr hub Speedcific 260 $100
Front spokes 32 XL 14 151.6
ND Rear 16 XL 14 76.9
DR Rear 16 DB 14 95.8
fr nipples 32 alloy 11.0
rr nipples 32 alloy 11 $55
Front: 647.6
Rear: 843.7
Total: 1491.4 $280

Mavic Ksyriums SL come in between 1550 and 1610 grams for reference.
Or with bombproof hubs:

Training Wheels
fr rim Fir ST120 400
rr rim Fir ST120 400
fr hub DA 10 129
rr hub DA 10 264
Front spokes 32 XL 14 151.6
ND Rear 16 XL 14 76.9
DR Rear 16 DB 14 95.8
fr nipples 32 alloy 11.0
rr nipples 32 alloy 11
Front: 691.6
Rear: 847.7
Total: 1539.4

Others have suggested Odds & Endos and Dave Thomas. I have used both and they both make excellent wheelsets.

PS - I bought the real light 28h, 340 gram Fir's in the Classifieds. With the Speedcific hubs the set should come in at 1,320 grams. Stupid light and I don't need them, but I could not resist.

[Tom]

OK, best bang for the buck in tubulars....

That's about as open a question as I've seen on this board, what are you looking to do with these wheels? What are your strengths or weaknesses as a rider, how much do you weight, do ride light or are you a lard-***?



Good point. I ride a CSi, I like the Open Pro 32 spoke clinchers on Chorus hubs I got with it a lot. They're more comfy than the cheapo Ksyriums but they handle somehow differently. I don't know how to explain except I noticed it most when I'm coming down a hill fast where the road twists and rolls, the bike doesn't seem to like to respond as crisply. I really can't tell if the Ks are faster going up hill or not.

Riding weight's 160-165 pounds.

My goal is to be able to ride longer rides of 75-125 miles at what I'd call a brisk recreational pace, alone or with one or two trusted compatriots. I can ride a five hour century in a group of about 8-9 riders and contribute my share of strong pulls to the end but it isn't my normal thing, it's kind of nerve-wracking. Most of my longer hilly rides like the Highlander or the run to the farm were at a much slower pace but my excuse is I treated them like a first marathon, where you cruise because you don't know how ugly it might get at the end. Once you know a route you hit it faster.

Weaknesses? Sprinting. Strengths? I wouldn't know. I enjoy climbing but I go really, really slow.

What I'm looking for is a third set of wheels that are comfortable, fast and don't cost a ton of money. I'm interested to try tubulars because I won't be off the road if I have to wait a day for glue to dry or something, having other wheels to fall back on.

[Kevan]

Now that's where we part company...

The secret to life: Pecan Sandies and a good cold beer.

My father taught me that while sitting on the tailgate of the old family station wagon, while finishing lunch in the parking lot at the base of Alta, in Utah. Too young then to appreciate it, but now I know he is a brilliant man.

[weisan]

I don't want to hijack this thread but while we are at the subject of tubulars, I would like to seek the opportunity to ask this question. "So, what's so great about tubulars?" :D

Before anyone start going nuts, see if I can frame the question a little bit better.

So, people who know steel and ride steel, and love its magic carpet ride. I don't know what magic is or carpet ride means until recently I got a good quality steel frame, built it up and rode it. Wow, what a revelation!

I reckon it's probably the same thing in the case of tubulars for me. What I have now is a pair of Mavic Heliums. Granted, they are not the lightest and the greatest, in fact, I didn't even pick up those wheels myself, they just came with the Legend. I have probably ridden on them for a dozen number of rides and 500+ miles. They are running conti triathlon tubs at about 120 PSI.
Compared with my normal training wheels - Cane Creek Chrono, also at 120 PSI, I really can't tell much difference, or I should say, I can't see any real benefits or advantage, other than the fact that the helium is quicker to wind up to speed on the hills and sprints, but it's less stable on the high speed descent and not so nice for cruising on the flats at 20+mph.
Maybe I need to get a pair of dugasts from Senor Jerk but he would have to take 70% off the tag price before I can afford it. Honest! :D

Until someone could beat some sense into me, my conclusion so far is that tubulars, clinchers...whatever...just give me a pair of wheels and I'll ride!!! ;) :p

Seriously though, I think I am missing something here. Of course, add to the fact that I don't yet have the privilege to try out the different wheelsets out in the market. The only ones I have rode on are the ones I owned, which are the heliums, the cane creek and the Open Pro.

weisan

[Spicoli]

Calfeefly nailed it! My absolute favorite wheels ( and I have a few to pick from ) Chrono F20 w/D/A 7700 hubs, Wheelsmith XL14's, X2FR/X2ND/X3DR, DB14's driveside, Alloy nipples. I am a 180 pound sprinter/elbow rubber/pot hole hitter (I am not bike friendly) and I have put about 3500 miles on this set alone last year and did not have any problems. Standard builds ride like butter, I hated taking them off so I put a bunch of training time on them. I use them with Sprinters and they feel great, I can just imagine how they are with some Dugasts or competitions. Also if strength is a concern get the Montreals or Nemisis hoops. Both have the exact dimensions just more material so slightly heavier/stronger. My set complete with tires, skewers and cass. are 2361gr. which is only 251gr. heavier than my Zipp 303 tubs with the exact same tires,cass,ect. You can build these for dirt and they are my best riding wheelset. As a reference I am comparing them too Zipp 404's and 303's, Ambrosio Excellights w/same build as F20 and IRD Cadence build amongst others I no longer have. I have pretty much narrowed it down to flat and straight 404's, wind,corners,bumps F/20's. You can see your not giving up much in the wieght dept. and something about Shimano hubs just feel fast in comparison to others. X3 drive X2 non drive helps balance tension and I use wheelsmith spoke prep on the non drive only since they are more prone to unwinding. Works for me and as previously stated balance,balance,balance in the tension dept. ;)

[pjm]

The secret to life: Pecan Sandies and a good cold beer.

Have you tried Sandies Cinnamon Swirl? Mmmmmmmmmmmm.....I like mine with ice cold milk, though. :)

[sspielman]

Usually I try not to get sucked in to either the tubular-clincher or s vs c debates....but here I go.... I use tubulars exclusively. I see no sense in using tubulars unless you are going to use handmade tires from one of the best makers. I prefer Veloflex. I find that I puncture less frequently than people I ride with. Nothing compares to the ride and feel of the best tubulars. I appreciate the weight savings of about 100g per wheel for a similar clincher combo. Tubulars feel fast to me, but empirical data would indicate that good clinchers have lower rolling resistance. I think there is a difference in the "real world". I find tubulars very convenient to change in the field in the event of a flat. Finally, I have never been able to understand the aversion to gluing tires. I find it much easier than to mount a stubborn clincher.
Steve S.
-25 years of riding tubulars, and not a pinch flat yet!

[weisan]

Usually I try not to get sucked in to either the tubular-clincher or s vs c debates....but here I go.... I use tubulars exclusively. I see no sense in using tubulars unless you are going to use handmade tires from one of the best makers. I prefer Veloflex. I find that I puncture less frequently than people I ride with. Nothing compares to the ride and feel of the best tubulars. I appreciate the weight savings of about 100g per wheel for a similar clincher combo. Tubulars feel fast to me, but empirical data would indicate that good clinchers have lower rolling resistance. I think there is a difference in the "real world". I find tubulars very convenient to change in the field in the event of a flat. Finally, I have never been able to understand the aversion to gluing tires. I find it much easier than to mount a stubborn clincher.
Steve S.
-25 years of riding tubulars, and not a pinch flat yet!

Steve, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your response. I am definitely not trying to draw anyone into the debate between Tubs vs Clinchers. What I am interested at is trying to figure out what is it that I have done or not done in order to enjoy the full benefits of tubs. I guess I need to ride with someone like you so that you can show me all the ropes about riding on tubs. 25 yrs and not one pinch flat? You got to be kidding me... :D

BTW, do you mend your own tubs?

weisan

[William]

Steve S.
-25 years of riding tubulars, and not a pinch flat yet!

Steve, good post.

Just curious. How much do you weigh?

William

[Ti Designs]

I don't want to hijack this thread but while we are at the subject of tubulars, I would like to seek the opportunity to ask this question. "So, what's so great about tubulars?"


I think I can handle that question. In a perfect world, the tire itself while unstressed would be round and supported only at it's center on the inside. When the tire rolls over something it deforms into an oval at the point of contact, there is flex in the sidewall from the point of contact all the way around to the other side. We don't live in a perfect world, and the tire has to be attached to the rim somehow. There are two ways of doing this, using a round profile tire and gluing it onto a rim, or using the pressure in the tire to attach the tire to the rim at the bead. The up sides of the clincher are easy to see, flat repair and not having to deal with the glue. The down sides are that effectivly the bottom 1/3rd of the tire is made of aluminum and can't deform like a tire should. Tubulars are also better in corners (assuming you glued them on well) because the round profile can conform to road surface better while the clincher is limited by the amount of casing from the point of contact to the bead.

Tubulars also don't have the pinch flat problem that clinchers do. A pinch flat is where the bead of the rim makes contact with the edge of something on the road, most often a pothole. Tubulars don't have beads to hold the rim, so no pinch flats.

Tubulars also tend to be lighter. The hardest part of making a light clincher is making a bead strong enough to withstand the pressure of the tire trying to pry the two sides apart. in Zipp wheels I sell their tubulars because they are light, fast and problem free. Their clinchers in the past have had problems with the rims bowing out under tire pressure.

Lastly, tubulars are a royal pain in the butt. There are still "old school" people around who insist on using "training tubulars". This makes no sense to me. They are a pain to work with, cheap tubulars ride like cheap clinchers - cheap! and when you get a flat you buy a whole new tire. So you're left with the performance of cheap clinchers and the hassle of tubulars. Who thinks this is a good idea??? Good tubulars on the other hand ride better than any clincher could. I've switched many of my riders over to tubulars for racing, they always expect a small change and are blown away by how much of a change they really make.

[weisan]

Thanks Ti. I appreciate such a thoughtful response. I haven't got the chance to say "thank you" as well for setting me straight on my goals, which I have "re-think-ed" since.

That's good enough explanation for me. I am buying good quality tubs from now on. Maybe I will give a try on the veloflex.

weisan

[Too Tall]

TiD - You've got my respect mahn. So what do you use or recommend as a "training tubular" or do you eschew the notion entirely? Mine are Clement Strada's.

[weisan]

TiD - You've got my respect mahn. So what do you use or recommend as a "training tubular" or do you eschew the notion entirely? Mine are Clement Strada's.

Tall-pal, didn't you hear what the man say: NO CHEAPO TUBS!!!

Sorry, I can't help it. :D I was that close to adding that stuff to my cartload at Nashbar...the thought of this whole glueing thing prevented it from happening at the last minute...and plus of course, I was not sold to the idea of "tubs are better" at that time. Now, I am still not a convert, but just willing to give it another shot. :banana:

Thanks for posting that training forum link. It's great!

[Ozz]

Ozz, listen bub I'm only going to say this ONCE. Using TUFO tape with Dugasts (on the road anyway) would be soooooooo uncool. Back away from the tape and take a deep breath....that's right...smell the glue....deeeeper...deeeeeeeeper.
thanks....this is just the advice I needed......if anyone found out I was using Tufo tape with my Dugasts...oh the shame!

Now if I can just get the dog hair out of the glue....... :beer:

[dirtdigger88]

I would love to try tubs I understand how they would ride better- I love how my Open Corsas ride (clinchers) compared to any other clincher that I have ever ridden- the problem is that on the nasty street that I ride on I trash the tires out in 4 months- in between then I have dug out glass and nails and the such out of the tire all the time- I have had several flats due to this-- with the conditions that I ride on I can probably look for a flat 1 out of every 15 rides (so say one every three weeks) I just don't know how I could justify tubs in those conditions- I don't get to ride on "nice" roads often enough to warrent a "spare" set of wheels that are tubs- so I am basicly force to ride the best clincher that I can find and accept that I get flats often- unlesss someone can tell me how to make things different.

Jason

[csb]

the commercial police need to delete petes link
for young wheels

[LegendRider]

I train on tubulars all the time. Reflex rims, DT double-butted spokes, brass nips, 3x pattern, DA hubs and Tufo Elite Roads tires. I've never, ever flatted a Tufo. They are considerably tougher than anything I've ever ridden. I was hesistant to train on Sprinters, but not the Tufos...

[the walrus]

By my count, Stephano Garzelli (Giro 2003), Pantani (Giro 2003), Tyler (Giro 2002) and Jan (TDF 2001) all crashed on ADA's (or the similar Lightweight's) in mountain stages of major tours. I think I will stay away from those wheels!

The next time you're competing at the Tour, to win, definitely stay off of those fancy wheels, I don't want to see you fall off your bike and cry. :fight:

[dirtdigger88]

The next time you're competing at the Tour, to win, definitely stay off of those fancy wheels, I don't want to see you fall off your bike and cry. :fight:

thats funny

jason

[Ti Designs]

Where did y'all learn how to glue a tire? I've found that everybody has their own way, and everyone has a horror story about gluing tubulars. I learned from my first coach who explained that it's a contact cement and I had to let the stuff dry, thus no mess. A few of the riders I coach skipped that step once. By the time the wheel got to me there was glue everywhere. I mean you couldn't tell what color the rim or tire was to start with. They even got glue on the hub...

[93legendti]

The next time you're competing at the Tour, to win, definitely stay off of those fancy wheels, I don't want to see you fall off your bike and cry. :fight:


Regardless of where I ride, I will stay off those overpriced, overrated ADA wheels.

[jerk]

Where did y'all learn how to glue a tire? I've found that everybody has their own way, and everyone has a horror story about gluing tubulars. I learned from my first coach who explained that it's a contact cement and I had to let the stuff dry, thus no mess. A few of the riders I coach skipped that step once. By the time the wheel got to me there was glue everywhere. I mean you couldn't tell what color the rim or tire was to start with. They even got glue on the hub...


the same guy who told the jerk that diesel fuel was the world's best degreaser...but then again he wasn't right about matching wellington boots with corduroy pants either so who knows.....never rolled a tire though....so the old flemish bastard was right about something. (sorry mike, even though i know you're not reading this...you're too busy teaching some other stupid kids from hoelliart how to glue tubular tires...but you really never did know your father did you? :) )

:beer: :beer:

[Too Tall]

Just because they are inexpensive does not mean they are cheap (Clement Stradas) ;) Same does not hold true for yours truly.
Agreed, the whole gluing "thing" is daunting to most folks and more so if they do not have an experienced person to show them how it's done right...no muss no fuss.
Hey, let's do a video :) Matt supplies the beer, Jerk sends us a pile of those Dugasts and some ADAs to muck with...yeah that'll work ;)

[the walrus]

Regardless of where I ride, I will stay off those overpriced, overrated ADA wheels.

I'm not sure what you mean by "overpriced" or "overrated".
How much does it cost to run a F1 car around a race track? Is a 50 million dollar a year budget too much to make a car go as fast as it can? 100 million?

We are not talking about riding your local roads, looking at all the pretty flowers here, we are talking about a product designed to get you to the end of a world cup race ahead of everyone else, or up the Ventoux, again, ahead of everyone else. Because you are being paid 1-5 million dollars a year to do just that. $4-5000 for a pair of wheels doesn't sound like that much for a "legal" edge. Likewise a $20,000 time trial bike. I can't even ride one of those down the street without being in a lot of physical pain and discomfort, but if I was in a position to win a time trial in the TDF or the Olympics, hell if I would even look sideways at the chance to ride it.

I ask, what price fame?

Also, if you look at the relative technological cost to the consumer here, many, many, many more enthusiasts can afford the bicycle version of a Ferrari F1.

[Big Dan]

Walrus, some people like to spend money on wheels while others rather spend money on short stems............. :bike:

[zap]

"I'm not sure what you mean by "overpriced" or "overrated".
How much does it cost to run a F1 car around a race track? Is a 50 million dollar a year budget too much to make a car go as fast as it can? 100 million?"



If you want to be at the back, 100 million a year just might do it.

Do you want to win, more like 600+ million a year. Shot, I hear M. Schumacher makes over 50 mil. a year.


"Also, if you look at the relative technological cost to the consumer here, many, many, many more enthusiasts can afford the bicycle version of a Ferrari F1."


I agree.

[93legendti]

Back to bicycles....I mean for approx. half the price and just about same performance you can buy wheels made by an established manufacturer, which have serviceable spokes and do not have to be shipped overseas for the manufacturer to do warranty/repair work, rather they can be taken to the LBS.

I am sure you guys put your money where your mouths are and have at least 2 pairs of ADA's, right?

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=6361

[Kevan]

over moderate terrain is only 16-20mph for a ride of 40-100 miles, what's the point? It's not like these wheels are going to bump you to 25.

[dirtdigger88]

neither will your frame but we all ride frames that cost that as well- why? If you can afford them and want them- then buy them. If you cant or don't want them don't- but why try to discredit them- We would all be just fine on a $500 trek or specialized- I would bet that our average speed would not be much different on one of those than on our ti- carbon- steel wonder rigs- so what make wheels any different-

Jason

[93legendti]

Right, better to accept an advetorial from a guy who sells them that they are the greatest wheels ever.

Not trying to discredit them, just stating my opinion. Why are you defending them?

[dirtdigger88]

I am not defending anyone- I find it amusing to see how bent out of shape you get when you deal with the jerk- he really gets your blood pressure up doesn't he? You have been fired up on stem length, bar shape and now on wheels- what part will it be next? I find the jerks post amusing- please explain to me why it is ok to spend 3k on a frame- but not on wheels- wheels make up a greater portion of the bikes weight than the frame- it is rotational weight and in my opinion makes a bigger difference in ride quality that any frame ever will- bad wheels can make a great frame not ride well- great wheels on an average frame can make all the difference in the world- jerk doesnt need defending- not from you

Jason

[Kevan]

I'm not so sure I totally agree with you on the frame aspect. Certainly it's true, we (us recreational types) have the talents that can be accomodated by lesser frames, but the quality frames we wear do "generally" provide better fit, comfort, and feel (control), assuming its been suited to us properly.

Sure we can blow our money as we like, that's the fun part of this sport, but it's kinda funny to talk about which cf rim does better in a wind tunnel test when the joe rider is likely not to notice a remarkable difference. A difference yes.. remarkable no...

I guess that conversation really belongs to the upper crust of talents.

Am I wrong here?

[Tom]

Even $750 for a pair of Neutrons makes me swallow hard. $2700 for Hyperons? Like my 5'6" buddy said about the $130 Nike basketball shoes: "I only buy them if they guarantee I can dunk when I'm wearing them."

The thing about wheels is, I break them. I don't know how... I only weigh 160 pounds when I'm in decent shape but so far I've pounded a pair of 32-hole Open Pros and the cheapo Ksyriums out of round on the roads around here. Though, to be fair to the Ks, I do know how. Schenectady decides to promote a part of town as "Little Italy". So, they spend vast sums of money on two giant concrete pillars at the head of one side street adorned with a teeny wrought iron arch and lights completely out of proportion. It looks really stupid. Anyway, they needed to run wires to the stupid lights so they cut a 4"x4" square trench across the main street and leave it like that for two months. Four or five times a week I ride across that thing, some days because I have some car right on my rear I have to hold speed and hop over it. I know at least once I blew the jump and the rear wheel landed right on it.

The deal is I'll spend a ton of money on a frame because I find it harder to break them. Wheels are different, but one thing I don't understand is the premise that you're not supposed to be able to fall off them if they cost a lot. Whatever. I got to get back to work. I have disasters to plan.

[93legendti]

I am not defending anyone- I find it amusing to see how bent out of shape you get when you deal with the jerk- he really gets your blood pressure up doesn't he? You have been fired up on stem length, bar shape and now on wheels- what part will it be next? I find the jerks post amusing- please explain to me why it is ok to spend 3k on a frame- but not on wheels- wheels make up a greater portion of the bikes weight than the frame- it is rotational weight and in my opinion makes a bigger difference in ride quality that any frame ever will- bad wheels can make a great frame not ride well- great wheels on an average frame can make all the difference in the world- jerk doesnt need defending- not from you

Jason

? I think you have lost the forest thru the trees (you also forgot carbon cranks). Thanks for letting me express my opinion on the Serotta site.

[dirtdigger88]

Kevan- no not wrong at all- I am not saying anyone should buy these wheels- I will never buy them- but I am just asking the question Why? I am asking that of myself as well- Why will I pay $3200 for a frame and $700 for a fork but then I think the 3k is high for wheels? I honestly think wheels have a bigger impact on the ride than a frame- I am not saying that i would be able to tell $2500 difference in ride quality over my favorite wheel set- I am just asking why are our (my) values the way they are

Jason

[Kevan]

once you've paid 2-3 grand for a frame and fork anymore spent has significantly less provided in return.

Still beating my Velocities into the pavement, with lust in my heart, but reality in my brain. :D

[chrisroph]

Value is a matter of buyer perspective. I feel that I got good value with my joule electra rite of passage stereo amplifiers (bought used directly from the manufacturer). Many would say I am nuts. I have a pair of zipp 303 tubulars. I ride them a few times a year at special races. You can't tell the difference between them and regular wheels tooling along or sitting in. But you can tell the difference when you jump out of the pack and sprint for the line at 37mph or when you are climbing. I am very pleased with the price/performance/value of these wheels. (No they don't wear dugasts, but conti comps acquired at 1/2 price). I am sure the ADA's, lightweights, and reynolds wheels have similar benefits. Sure, they cost a lot more than my zipps. If you want them, buy them. If you don't want them, don't buy them. I wouldn't buy a set of ADAs, and I haven't sprung for a set of $100 plus dugasts; I've still got some NOS vittoria cx/cg, a criterium seta on the front of one of my track wheels and 3 or 4 conti comps. But if you buy a set of ADA/dugasts, I'd love to borrow them for a day.

[Birddog]

I am asking that of myself as well- Why will I pay $3200 for a frame and $700 for a fork but then I think the 3k is high for wheels? I honestly think wheels have a bigger impact on the ride than a frame

That's a good question, perhaps it has something to do with the proportion of the cost, ie it can be anywhere from 25% to 100% of the cost of the frame/fork. We probably wouldn't spend $$ in those upper percentages for wheels/tires on our car/truck/SUV, so we are not inclined to do it with our bicycle. I think it's a sort of conditioned response (to not spend the big$$). In other words, we subconsciously refrain from buying the very top end because it seems disproportionate to the whole. Does that make any sense?

Birddog

[the walrus]

Do you want to win, more like 600+ million a year. Shot, I hear M. Schumacher makes over 50 mil. a year.

Yes, I thought that was low when I posted it.

[the walrus]

Right, better to accept an advetorial from a guy who sells them that they are the greatest wheels ever.

Not trying to discredit them, just stating my opinion. Why are you defending them?

Whats your beef, Fred?

[93legendti]

No beef, Francis.

[SGP]

:confused: How does the glue respond to changes in temperature? I seem to remember a crash at Le Tour a couple of years back, that removed Lance's major competition, that was caused by the extreme heat melting his glue.

once a tubie is punctured, can it be patched or is it done fer?

[coylifut]

:confused: How does the glue respond to changes in temperature? I seem to remember a crash at Le Tour a couple of years back, that removed Lance's major competition, that was caused by the extreme heat melting his glue.

once a tubie is punctured, can it be patched or is it done fer?

I've wathced Beloki's crash over and over and it appeared to me that he hit a tar patch and then "high sided" when he went to correct. That in turn did roll the tire, but he was on his way down anyway. I don't think it was equipment failure that caused the crash.

Yes, tubies can be fixed.

[Serotta PETE]

:crap:
the commercial police need to delete petes link
for young wheels

[Big Dan]

Pete, how could you do this? Provide a useful link for fellow forum members?
That's really out of line........... :D

[chrisroph]

I remember looking carefully at the photos of Beloki's crash and I could swear he was on clinchers, that he rolled a bead when he caught the first skid, that the tube blew, and that he went down.

About 30 years ago, I was descending yerba buena in the santa monica mountains on tubis and noticed that the front tire moved on the rim from the heat generated by braking.

[93legendti]

Here's an interesting real life "comparison" of ADA's (or wheels that looked just like them) and Mavic K's:
In Stage 10 of the 2001 TDF, Lance rode Mavic K's up the 14.1 km, 7.9% Alpe and took 1:59 out of Jan. The next day, Lance switched to ADA's (or wheels that looked just like them). Using these wheels up Stage 11's 18.7km, 7.1% TT climb, Lance only took 1:00 out of Jan.

[flydhest]

You are, of course, kidding about that being any sort of relevant comparison of the wheels, right?

[93legendti]

Draw your own conclusions. :)

[Roy E. Munson]

.

[Sandy]

How about this comparison. You on ADA wheels and me on Mavic K's. We start together and we race up the hill on MacArthur Blvd. I win the race. Would that mean anything?? :)

Supersonic Speedy Sandy

[zap]

No. It just means Fly smelled some good food at Anglers Inn and stopped to have a bit to eat.

[Sandy]

Must have stopped for a 10 course dinner.

Still climbing,

Sandy

[Kevan]

on a car???

[Sandy]

That hurt!!

[the walrus]

.

[admin]

And we're done.