death of a vanilla

[JeffS]

Thought I'd share a really miserable selling experience I had recently.

Some of you might remember seeing this bike on ebay recently.

http://kdasdesigns.com/images/ebay/van_3160.jpg

I purchased it there a couple months back. Decided that the parts build wasn't for me and rather than rip it apart I hesitantly put it back on ebay.

Within an hour of listing someone bought it for my BIN price - paid immediately. The problems started when the next day I received an email referencing some of the parts that I'd received as part of the initial auction that I did not include in mine. The main implication being that the buyer realized that he had paid more than I did for the bike, minus over $500 in parts. I immediately started feeling that this wasn't going to end well.

Packed the bike and shipped it that day. At the end of the week I received an email saying the bike had been damaged in shipment. It was reported to be very scratched up and would need a complete repaint. The buyer was relatively patient over the two weeks it took me to get the claim processed with Fedex.

They picked the bike up and eventually returned it to me. Surprisingly, I found very minimal scratches on the bike. I don't dispute that there were more scratches than when it left me, but not necessarily of the type to require a full repaint.

What I did find was a missing fender, seatpost, and Ti Swift. Then, when I went to put the front wheel back on I found this:

http://kdasdesigns.com/images/ebay/forkdamage1.jpg
http://kdasdesigns.com/images/ebay/forkdamage3.jpg

Immediately sent the updated info to Fedex. 3 weeks and they still weren't proactively calling me. I had to initiate the call with the claims person each time. I finally broke down and called one more time (I hate the phone) and she told me that their inspection showed "no damage". I stressed that there WAS damage, tried to explain what the fork pictures showed (though she understandably didn't understand), and focused on the missing parts and that I had no reason to think that I could get this repaired by the original builder. Out of the blue she said she would submit the claim to her manager for approval and stated that they would be picking the bike back up.

Wait... you're submitting what amount for payment? (I had only ever asked for a partial refund)

"Full value"


So, the bike was picked up and a check for ~$3300 arrived today. I had already made my peace with parting with the bike, but the thought of it sitting in the corner of a Fedex warehouse (or likely destroyed) is quite unfortunate.

[Blue Jays]

Why does it often seem challenging to global delivery companies to:

gently pick-up a box
gently load it onto a truck
gently drive it or fly it wherever it needs to go
gently offload the box and deliver
There are naturally millions and millions of undamaged deliveries, yet it seems they have a particularly challenging time with high-end bicycles.
I would think that with a lightweight yet bulkly box their success rate should be perfect. :confused:

[Steve in SLO]

That is really a bummer, Jeff.
In no way does the resolulution make up for your list time and emotional stress. I really do not like shipping bikers for just this reason. I have yet to have damage, but I still pack them like they were going to take a few 6 foot drops and worry like hell until they arrive safely.

[znfdl]

Jeff:

I am sorry tp hear about the death of the Vanilla, as they are truly lovely bikes.

I have stopped using Fedex based on an experience last spring. I shippd my bike rom Arizona, the Spectrum Ti disaapeared in the Fedex ethere for two weeks. When it finally showed up to my house, a friend of mines bike also showed up. His bike had also been lost and somehow ended up at my house.

My next bike is an S&S coupled bike.

[Ozz]

Why does it often seem challenging to global delivery companies to:

gently pick-up a box
gently load it onto a truck
gently drive it or fly it wherever it needs to go
gently offload the box and deliver
There are naturally millions and millions of undamaged deliveries, yet it seems they have a particularly challenging time with high-end bicycles.
I would think that with a lightweight yet bulkly box their success rate should be perfect. :confused:
I worked on a loading dock for a shipping company right after college...the employees were "on call", meaning you didn't know if you were working until about 5 hours before your shift. Staffing was based on number of trucks / shipments that needed to be processed that night. The employees were "graded" on the number of "items per hour" they loaded into the trucks. If you didn't have a high number, you weren't called back....handling the items gently was not part of the equation....speed and getting the items to fit into the truck was the goal.....odd shaped items were especially troublesome....nothing a little push with a forklift couldn't fix though.

[Marcusaurelius]

I had a bike damaged by UPS once. I now wrap all the tubes of frame (including the fork) in a foam pipe wrap if I ship a frame. I think you have to make bike able to withstand a huge impact.

That is a gorgeous bike.

[Ray]

I have stopped using Fedex based on an experience last spring. I shippd my bike rom Arizona, the Spectrum Ti disaapeared in the Fedex ethere for two weeks. When it finally showed up to my house, a friend of mines bike also showed up. His bike had also been lost and somehow ended up at my house.
I've had good luck with fedex in the past, bit my most recent experience really sucked. A frame being shipped from NYC to near Philly disappeared in their tracking system and appeared to be lost. After about two weeks it suddenly showed up. No damage, but it had obviously been sitting someplace really hot because the adhesive from the pipe insulation used to wrap the frame had melted all over it and was a bear to get off. And their tracking system never did catch up with it. Still ended better than this saga - whadda drag!

-Ray

[Smiley]

The moral to the story is try and buy and sell locally, its the green thing to do. BTW I'd still take Fed Ex over UPS, those guys are gorillas :)

[93legendti]

I'vs shipped over 15 framesets, 4 wheels sets in a bike box, as well as a few other wheelsets, via fed ex. So far no damage and no problems. I pack pretty diligently. Plenty of plumber's foam piping attached via zip ties, drop out spacers, extra cardboard, etc...Packing a bike can take an hour.

[paulrad9]

Part of me thinks the buyer had buyer's response which was accelerated by knowing you paid less for it. In an attempt to get his money back, he damaged the fork (and borrowed a few components?).

Can you buy the frame from Fedex (offer $1500), repair it and sell/keep it?

[Lifelover]

Part of me thinks the buyer had buyer's response which was accelerated by knowing you paid less for it. In an attempt to get his money back, he damaged the fork (and borrowed a few components?).

Can you buy the frame from Fedex (offer $1500), repair it and sell/keep it?
That is where I thought the story was going!

[MattTuck]

I am very distrustful of shipping companies and large boxes. In high-school, I went on a tour of the local UPS facility for a potential part time job. I watched a guy there, push a pair pf HP server boxs (worth aproximately $13,000 at the time) off a 4 foot loading dock without a second thought.

[Don49]

So, the bike was picked up and a check for ~$3300 arrived today. I had already made my peace with parting with the bike, but the thought of it sitting in the corner of a Fedex warehouse (or likely destroyed) is quite unfortunate.

I had a bike "totaled" by Fedex, looked like the box was dropped hard onto the floor (they have a special machine for that). Most of the damage was scratching to the frame and the rear wheel required rebuilding.

Fedex paid me for the total value of the bike ($1200, what I paid on eBay) and let me keep the bike without any prompting from me. The claims agent said the bike had no value to them and they were happy to let me take it away. Wish it had worked that way for you.

[slowgoing]

So who took the missing fender, seatpost, and Ti Swift?

[weiwentg]

So who took the missing fender, seatpost, and Ti Swift?

+1

[sailorboy]

I've had two new frames destroyed this year alone, one was a pegoretti marcelo, brand new and basically run over (there were tire tracks on the box and they still had the nerve to deliver it) and the other was a gaulzetti. I think the zetti was from UPS, can't recall who comp cyclist used--I think it was fed ex. So take your pick, IMO they all are suspect at this point. The only ones I've never had significant damage from is USPS. Funny how so many people bag on them, but prefer UPS/fed ex. Other than high prices on big boxes and the occasional lost mail, USPS beats the others hands down

[JeffS]

no idea.

The buyer says he put it in the box when Fedex picked the bike back up from him. Fedex supposedly opened the box to inspect the bike and they could have left them out at the warehouse. No idea if they did. I do know that they didn't remove the packing material from the bike. Kinda hard to look for paint scratches if the paint is covered.

The buyer never mentioned the bent fork to me. My guess is that this happened after it left him coming back towards me.

I really wish I'd taken full pics of the bike when I got it back. I had to REALLY look for the scratches. On that dark green they were very hard to find. Part of me says that he just didn't want the bike anymore and came up with a way to return it. At the same time, I have no reason to think he did anything malicious. Had he wanted the bike, and been upfront about the actual condition I would have probably refunded a couple hundred and called it a day. Instead, the whole bike ends up written off.

I guess we both came out whole, but certainly not happy.

[davidlee]

Sad story, beautiful bike.
Where is it now? I'd throw a new fork on her and ride the sh%t out of it, scratches and all..
d

[willy in pacifi]

If I were to sell a very expensive bike I would make an agreement with the buyer that I would drop it off at a local to me bike shop and have the bike shop pack and ship the bike from their shop after their inspection.

This would be at the cost of the buyer.

If there was damage to the frame it would be between the buyer the bike shop and the shipper and there would be no recourse against me. I would imagine the bike shop would have a better relationship with the shipper in order to collect any insurance.

This also gives the buyer more confidence in the condition of the bike he/she just bought is as represented by the seller.

willy in pacifica

[xjahx]

The resurrection is coming...

[Ken Robb]

The resurrection is coming...

well it is Lent, after all. :)

[xjahx]

Good job at catching the reference.

[dbh]

Found this thread across the hall:

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f3/non-affiliated-local-vanilla-disc-touring-complete-heads-up-20826.html

[xjahx]

Yes, that is where I learned of this.

[ultraman6970]

Dont understand how the fork was damaged in that place, it is dented form inside out, thats impossible, unless somebody knows a way for that to happen when a bike is in a box.

What I think is that the buyer did something to it and alleged the scratches to get off the deal, and if he was not cooperative is so simple as argue that the bike was like that when he got it or that he has no clue.

Even there is a slight chance he damaged the frame at purpose and took the missing parts. That sucks tho.

well at least you got some money for it, the teaching here is always, but always to pay for the full insurance.

[MRB]

[QUOTE=willy in pacifi]If I were to sell a very expensive bike I would make an agreement with the buyer that I would drop it off at a local to me bike shop and have the bike shop pack and ship the bike from their shop after their inspection.

This would be at the cost of the buyer.

If there was damage to the frame it would be between the buyer the bike shop and the shipper and there would be no recourse against me. I would imagine the bike shop would have a better relationship with the shipper in order to collect any insurance.

This also gives the buyer more confidence in the condition of the bike he/she just bought is as represented by the seller.

willy in pacifica[/QUOTE

Althought your idea sounds solid, in my experience, this does not work. I purchased a very expensive frame build by a highly reputable builder on the East Coast. The original owner, took the frame to a bike shop to have it professionally packed and shipped. Unfortuanatley the packing job was done poorly packed and then shipped, via UPS.

When the frame arrived at my home, , I looked at the box, and immediatly thought to my self "Oh ????, this thing travled all the way across the U.S in an "envelope" not a box. And sure enough, the top tube was smashed to ????, and buch of other damage was done. In the end, the only person that lost, was the seller. The bike shop would not reslove it, UPS denied that the Insurance claim, and this work of art was almost reduce to scrap metal.

[avalonracing]

A buddy of mine bought a nice Ti IF here a couple of months ago. It too was "modified" by UPS. UPS did make good on it.

It sucks but if the bikes are properly insure both FedEx and UPS pay up which isn't exactly a small check to write.

[markie]

Dont understand how the fork was damaged in that place, it is dented form inside out, thats impossible, unless somebody knows a way for that to happen when a bike is in a box.
.

To me it looks like the fork end was probably not braced. Then any impact or weight on the end of the fork pushing the fork blades together could possily cause that kind of damage.

[xjahx]

I hope that I can straighten that fork. A little cold setting in the fork jig, and I should be set. Otherwise, I will use one of my IF forks.

[1happygirl]

So Sad. Sorry for all involved. Reminds me of the Cash for Clunkers with all the beautiful gems still worthy of use being trashed, even though this wasn't intentional.

RE: Having a bike shop ship. I sold a very nice trainer via E-pay and paid a local shop to ship it. Long story short, the buyer failed to contact me and the shop left out the important bolts. Buyer left negative feedback even though I called the shop and they sent them out.

Sorry this happened. Says a lot about society and our respect for other's stuff even if not something I personally like (if I wasn't a bike rider-but you liked it). It's so frustrating and tiring having to continually do other people's jobs.
RANT OVER.

[troymac]

Being with UPS 26 plus years unfortunately I've seen it all. If I had anything to ship I couldn't replace I would not ship with anyone. I'm not sure if anyone is better or worse at taking care of your packages. I would pack a bike frame with the expectation that whoever ships it will damage it. I would pack it as such. When I ship I'm always anxious if it's going to get there safe and in one piece. I know the odds of a shipment arriving safe and without damage its very high but I still worry.

[xjahx]

JeffS, it sounds like you closed this chapter with the $3300 check and wrote off the bad experience.

I hope to get the bike back on the road and use it for the intended purpose.

[victoryfactory]

Why does it often seem challenging to global delivery companies to:

gently pick-up a box
gently load it onto a truck
gently drive it or fly it wherever it needs to go
gently offload the box and deliver
There are naturally millions and millions of undamaged deliveries, yet it seems they have a particularly challenging time with high-end bicycles.
I would think that with a lightweight yet bulkly box their success rate should be perfect. :confused:

I'll tell you why, but you are not gonna like it.
Here is the deal:
Since the online buying boom UPS and Fedex have way more volume than ever.
To deal with this, they have built giant automated handling facilities that do pretty well on "normal" size items. Oversize like bikes are the stepchildren of
this system and get weird handling at extra cost.

They now need items to be packed much better than before to make it unscathed through the system.
In the old days, stickers like "Do not freeze" "This end up" "fragile" meant something.
Today the laser scanners are blind to that as the packages are shoved, thrown, dropped and crushed through the system.

It's just the way it is. The 2 things a shipper can do to increase the odds:

1. Put an insurance amt of 1000+ on the box which will beep in the system as a high value item and be tracked as such.
2. OVER PACK!

In fact, UPS has recently spun off it's claim department to a third party outfit in TX
who, as strictly an insurance company (rather than a shipping company that also insures)
Denys claims out of hand and makes you work very hard to get paid, while the
UPS people can now throw their hand up and say " sorry, you will have to take it up with the insurance people"

One other thing to watch out for is that UPS no longer recognizes the federal
minimum box standards (Those round stamps on the bottom of the carton that
says how much weight you can put in a given box)
And has established their own stricter standards which are burried well down in their
website. Fedex copies everything UPS does, in time.

Too much information? Maybe, but this is what I do every day at work

VF

[buck-50]

I've had 2 bikes damaged in shipping so far- one, UPS drove a fork lift through the box and had the nerve to tell me I didn't pack it properly (local UPS guy refunded me out of his own pocket) and one damaged by fedex.

Fedex was the easier one to deal with for the claim.

Personally, I'm through selling frames,bikes on ebay. I only sell local now, and occasionally here.

Problem I've found is when I sell a bike or a frame to someone a thousand miles away, I have no idea what they're seeing when they open the box or what they consider to be a significant problem. I have no idea if they even looked at the pictures on the auction. I have no way of telling if they've got buyers remorse or if they're delighted.

When I sell something local, I lose a lot of money, but I know that I was able to hand the frame to the buyer, have them look it over carefully and accept it as is, not "as they have envisioned it".

[victoryfactory]

I've had 2 bikes damaged in shipping so far- one, UPS drove a fork lift through the box and had the nerve to tell me I didn't pack it properly


Yep, that's the song they sing. The research shows that a significant number
of customers won't take it any farther than that so they try it on every
damage claim. The occasional shipper usually gives up which saves them money.

[willy in pacifi]

[QUOTE=willy in pacifi]If I were to sell a very expensive bike I would make an agreement with the buyer that I would drop it off at a local to me bike shop and have the bike shop pack and ship the bike from their shop after their inspection.

This would be at the cost of the buyer.

If there was damage to the frame it would be between the buyer the bike shop and the shipper and there would be no recourse against me. I would imagine the bike shop would have a better relationship with the shipper in order to collect any insurance.

This also gives the buyer more confidence in the condition of the bike he/she just bought is as represented by the seller.

willy in pacifica[/QUOTE

Althought your idea sounds solid, in my experience, this does not work. I purchased a very expensive frame build by a highly reputable builder on the East Coast. The original owner, took the frame to a bike shop to have it professionally packed and shipped. Unfortuanatley the packing job was done poorly packed and then shipped, via UPS.

When the frame arrived at my home, , I looked at the box, and immediatly thought to my self "Oh ????, this thing travled all the way across the U.S in an "envelope" not a box. And sure enough, the top tube was smashed to ????, and buch of other damage was done. In the end, the only person that lost, was the seller. The bike shop would not reslove it, UPS denied that the Insurance claim, and this work of art was almost reduce to scrap metal.

My concern as a seller is to be out of the mix if there is damage to a frame I sold. If the buyer arranges a bike shop to pack and ship the frame then his beef is with the bike shop and the bike shop is either at fault or the bike shop can deal with the shipping company.

[JeffS]

[QUOTE=MRB]

My concern as a seller is to be out of the mix if there is damage to a frame I sold. If the buyer arranges a bike shop to pack and ship the frame then his beef is with the bike shop and the bike shop is either at fault or the bike shop can deal with the shipping company.

You can't transfer responsibility in such a way, especially on eBay. The only way that would work is to find one of the shops that will consign used parts, acting as the eBay seller.

[Gummee]

I ordered a Jamis Xenith T2 for a customer and watched the UPS driver toss it out the door of the truck on its end. Then watched it fall over.

I felt like asking him if he knew he just tossed around about two months of his salary. Didn't in order to make sure more stuff didn't get tossed about carelessly.

M

[xjahx]

Logan airport, 19:00, Delta flight from Salt Lake...time will tell.

[1happygirl]

It's just the way it is. The 2 things a shipper can do to increase the odds:

1. Put an insurance amt of 1000+ on the box which will beep in the system as a high value item and be tracked as such.
2. OVER PACK!


VF

#2 Glad Amazon doesn't sell bikes. Last couple of things I got from them were sent just in the manufacturer's boxes, not even an outside box

[victoryfactory]

I ordered a Jamis Xenith T2 for a customer and watched the UPS driver toss it out the door of the truck on its end. Then watched it fall over.

I felt like asking him if he knew he just tossed around about two months of his salary. Didn't in order to make sure more stuff didn't get tossed about carelessly.

M

UPS drivers are well paid, but over worked. They sometimes get over 100
stops a day around here and are still out there at 7:00 pm.

For the most part, they are just "Pawns in the game"

That's why you need to make your packaging as bombproof as possible.
The days of "handle with care" and "fragile" are OVER.
If your box can not handle being dropped from a great height, don't send it!
If a lightly packed shipment gets through unscathed, you are just lucky. Don't
count on that happening every time. Shippers who are still in the old mode
are playing with fire and will change their ways when the losses become too
expensive.
Accept it, deal with it, or buy everything locally.

VF

PS: apologies to JeffS for hijacking your thread into a UPS shipping rant. My bad.

[Gummee]

UPS drivers are well paid, but over worked. They sometimes get over 100
stops a day around here and are still out there at 7:00 pm.The FedEx ground guy stopped by the house the other night at 2000-ish. Was still a bunch of stuff in his truck. Said he'd had 130 stops that day.

For the most part, they are just "Pawns in the game"That don't mean tossing boxes out of the truck!

That's why you need to make your packaging as bombproof as possible.
The days of "handle with care" and "fragile" are OVER.
If your box can not handle being dropped from a great height, don't send it!
If a lightly packed shipment gets through unscathed, you are just lucky. Don't
count on that happening every time. Shippers who are still in the old mode
are playing with fire and will change their ways when the losses become too
expensive.
Accept it, deal with it, or buy everything locally.

VF

PS: apologies to JeffS for hijacking your thread into a UPS shipping rant. My bad.Now that last part I'll agree with. I'M still operating under the old rules. Time to change my attitude too evidently. My personal attitude is 'take care of it like its mine' and 'take pride in my job.' Guess that's a thing of the past.

M