Which way are you going?

[duke]

In the last week or so I have seen at least a half dozen cyclists pointing their left arm up in the air before they turn. After watching a couple of them I have figured out that this means they are turning right. Is this some secret club or are you just trying to get hit by the car behind you when he has no idea which way you are going? Pointing at the sky indicates to me to look up, then you turn in front of me while I am looking for seagulls, eagles or whatever. Get a grip folks, if you want to turn right put out your right arm. It works for left turns it should work fine for right turns. Thanks for listening I feel better...
duke

[gomez308]

this is how we did it in the good ole days.

[rbtmcardle]

sorry, I am one of the people you speak of, when I was a young lad we were taught this, i am not from Hubbard or Ohio, however I do believe these are the universal hand signals - though they do give an option here for cyclists - I generally signal both ways because I dont think most motor vehicle drivers have a clue.

http://www.cityofhubbard.com/ordinances/NewTraffic1/page0131.asp

[regularguy412]

IMHO, the reason the 'up point' was used, was because early automobile drivers couldn't reach out the right window to point to turn right.

I always point to the right with my right hand for a right turn. I point left for a left turn.

If I'm stopping and near the front of a big group, I put my hand straight up. At least that's the way I learned to do it when having a mechanical problem in a race pack.

Mike in AR:beer:

[dekindy]

In a right-handed world you keep your strong right hand on the bars and signal with your left.

[Jason E]

We learned this in cub scouts 30 years ago. I thought we were supposed to extend our left thumb as well, so as to point right.

[rugbysecondrow]

Plus, at least to me, if I am right on the right hand side of the right lane, my right hand is not as visible as my left.

Plus, I thought it was common knowledge that was the sign for a right turn.

[MattTuck]

Plus, I thought it was common knowledge that was the sign for a right turn.

Have you seen the people they let get licenses these days? I think the term this "common knowledge" is beyond many of them.

[duke]

I do understand where it came from. I don't understand why it is still being used. I just don't think it is the obvious way to signal a right turn on a bike. I doubt if many people under forty years old have any idea what is about to happen.
duke

[Lifelover]

I do understand where it came from. I don't understand why it is still being used. I just don't think it is the obvious way to signal a right turn on a bike. I doubt if many people under forty years old have any idea what is about to happen.
duke


"Sheeple"

[Lifelover]

In a right-handed world you keep your strong right hand on the bars and signal with your left.

In my world, if you can't handle you bike with either hand than I just assume you ride behind me.

If that makes me and Effn Elitist, than sign me up!

[JD Smith]

I always extend my right arm and point, like a traffic cop at an intersection. It makes it obvious that I am saying, "I'm going THAT WAY!" Either way, the fact that I'm about to do something is brought to their attention.

[Louis]

duke,

Motorcycle guys have to do it that way also because the throttle is on the right side.

[CaliFly]

Plus, at least to me, if I am right on the right hand side of the right lane, my right hand is not as visible as my left.


This is still the answer to the question.

[Ti Designs]

Here in the Boston area people don't signal at all. It's giving away the advantage of knowing something they don't. It's just like the steet signs on the main roads - there are none. If you're from around there you know which road it is. It's all part of keeping the home field advantage. Ah, the traditions in and around Boston...

[jchasse]

I always extend my right arm and point, like a traffic cop at an intersection. It makes it obvious that I am saying, "I'm going THAT WAY!" Either way, the fact that I'm about to do something is brought to their attention.

exactly. if some people here deep in the bowels of cycling forums don't know of this arcane left arm only signaling nonsense, can you really expect the 19 year old on his cell phone to know what you're pointing up for? just point, clearly, in the direction you are turning. yeesh.

[Ti Designs]

OK, I take that back. People around Boston do signal, but it's mostly done with one finger.

[jchasse]

This is still the answer to the question.

the answer to what question exactly? "which way are you going?"? i'd wager that the vast majority of drivers under the age of, say, 60 wouldn't agree. untill they squash you flat... ;)

[Ken Robb]

shush you fools. If the government learns of this there will soon be a requirement that all bikes have electric turn signals.

[CaliFly]

exactly. if some people here deep in the bowels of cycling forums don't know of this arcane left arm only signaling nonsense, can you really expect the 19 year old on his cell phone to know what you're pointing up for? just point, clearly, in the direction you are turning. yeesh.

"Clearly" is not in the vocabulary of 19-year-olds on cell phones. ;)

[PCR]

this is how we did it in the good ole days.

Safety... this is why we [had] standards in the US.

[Louis]

"Clearly" is not in the vocabulary of 19-year-olds on cell phones. ;)

The photo below was taken in St Louis by a NYT photographer in town to take some pics for a story on an H.I.V. scare at a local high-school. Kids in the car with an adult and they pull a stunt like that. Imagine what it would be like with just kids...

Good news all around. Check out the speedometer.

Edit: On second thought, looking on the bright side, this does suggest that our race-relations are improving.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/07/21/technology/22distractedblog.jpg

[daylate$short]

I doubt if many people under forty years old have any idea what is about to happen.
duke
Quote of the week!

My bad, we were talking about turn signals.....

[FL_MarkD]

If you are turning right, does it really make much of a difference to the car that is overtaking you? Most likely you are already way too the right, doubtful they are trying to be right of where you are.

Maybe we need a 'I am going straight through the intersection, please don't J hook me' signal. Just a thought ...

And I use the right arm point for my right turns, some others I ride with use the left arm up method. It can be a bit confusing in a large group ride, that is why verbal communication helps best in that situation.

My .02

mark

[goonster]

Every state-issued driver's manual I've ever seen (NY, NJ, PA, WA) describes and illustrates the point-up/turn-right hand signal.

Apparently nobody out there, or in here, reads those. :crap:

[PaulE]

The photo below was taken in St Louis by a NYT photographer in town to take some pics for a story on an H.I.V. scare at a local high-school. Kids in the car with an adult and they pull a stunt like that. Imagine what it would be like with just kids...

Good news all around. Check out the speedometer.

Edit: On second thought, looking on the bright side, this does suggest that our race-relations are improving.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/07/21/technology/22distractedblog.jpg

But hey, is that a Livestrong bracelet on the wrist of the hand holding that steering wheel?

[William]

shush you fools. If the government learns of this there will soon be a requirement that all bikes have electric turn signals.


Coming soon to a bicycle near you....

http://s3.gadgetreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/bicycle_signal_brake_lamp.jpg




William

[vjp]

this is how we did it in the good ole days.

This is the legal way to signal here in British Columbia and the way every school child is taught. If you are seeing people where you are doing this also then maybe that is how they were taught also. Maybe you missed that day at school?

vjp

[Onno]

duke,

Motorcycle guys have to do it that way also because the throttle is on the right side.

Motorcycle guys signal??? Not in this part of the world...

[BumbleBeeDave]

I always extend my right arm and point, like a traffic cop at an intersection. It makes it obvious that I am saying, "I'm going THAT WAY!" Either way, the fact that I'm about to do something is brought to their attention.

I also usually pump my arm a couple of time to emphasize that I'm going THAT way. Seems like common sense to me and I haven't had any driver misunderstand yet that I know of. At least nobody's run over me yet or even come close in one of these situations.

While the hand straight up for a right turn may indeed be what's taught in the driver's manual, I have no assurance that whoever is driving has looked at that manual recently, if ever. I'm 50 and haven't had to retake a driver's test or look at a manual since I was 16. I just go down to DMV when I get my renewal notice, give them money, and they give me a new license. I have to assume that other people have the same experience and there are a lot of dirver's a lot older than me who haven't looked at a manual in scores of years.

BBD

[flydhest]

I do understand where it came from. I don't understand why it is still being used. I just don't think it is the obvious way to signal a right turn on a bike. I doubt if many people under forty years old have any idea what is about to happen.
duke

If you understand where it came from, why does it make you think you are supposed to look up, as you stated in the original post?

Seems like an odd conclusion to come to if you know what the sign means.

[duke]

I understand the origin of the signal. I also understand the origin of the German language. That doesn't mean I can understand German. When I see it being used it is not intuitive (to me) in its meaning. I would guess I am not alone in this.
duke

[rwsaunders]

I was on charity ride last weekend and most of the cyclists used no signals at all. I voiced my opinion ("Hey Fausto, a friggin' hand signal would be nice.") and offered a lesson in proper hand signals, after having almost bumped wheels with a fine gent with a squeaky chain, who was clearly oblivious to his position in terms of the other cyclists.

[flydhest]

I understand the origin of the signal. I also understand the origin of the German language. That doesn't mean I can understand German. When I see it being used it is not intuitive (to me) in its meaning. I would guess I am not alone in this.
duke

You sincerely believe that to be a reasonable analogy?

[duke]

That was a stretch for an analogy.
duke

[Bob Ross]

This thread is awesome. Thanks everyone.

(goes to get popcorn...)

[fiamme red]

In my world, if you can't handle you bike with either hand than I just assume you ride behind me.

If that makes me and Effn Elitist, than sign me up!What if my right hand isn't available to signal, because I'm carrying a shopping bag, or even...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2429/3619591334_123722c387.jpg

[Tobias]

If that makes me and Effn Elitist, than sign me up!
To be a true Effin Elitist you first have to learn the difference between "then" and "than". Sorry, you can't join the club yet. ;)

[Tobias]

This is still the answer to the question.+1

If riding alone maybe, but with other cyclists behind drivers won't be able to see your right arm.

[jasond]

Here in the Boston area people don't signal at all. It's giving away the advantage of knowing something they don't. It's just like the steet signs on the main roads - there are none. If you're from around there you know which road it is. It's all part of keeping the home field advantage. Ah, the traditions in and around Boston...

This is hilarious!

[flickwet]

I am a lefty thumb pointing right two pumps I'm goin dat way kinda guy, I don't care if some dimwatt doesn't get it, how stupid could they be, all I know is that I've signaled in the most appropriate and legal manner and if some calamity did somehow befall me I would know and be able to state that unequivocally I legally signaled a right hand turn. No one can dispute that.

Now when I'm riding and want to point a direction to my fellow riders I may point with my right arm outstretched, jersey fluttering gently in the breeze, look a Coyote! sometimes even with emphasis, "look quick Snipes!"

[npla2112]

Howdy...

[JeffS]

I don't care if some dimwatt doesn't get it

If you don't care if they get it, why are you signaling at all?

--------------
Yes, I know what the "proper" right turn signal looks like, and have known since I was four or five. I choose not to use it though

I'm sure my right-arm signal annoys a couple of stick-up-their-butt drivers, but noone EVER mistakes my signal for something else.

Had someone who works with me question my signal... "I thought you were supposed to...". I asked them if they understood which way I was turning, which of course, they did. That's all that matters to me.

[duke]

Hey, we don't care if anyone understands which way you are turning...we are more interested in justifying our use of an obsolete and confusing signal, designed for cars before they had turn signals, to indicate that we are about to do something.
duke

[Volant]

Don't point your arm straight up! The 'kid' driver behind you, if s/he's not texting, will look up to see what you're pointing at and run your ass over. :bike:

[OtayBW]

In the last week or so I have seen at least a half dozen cyclists pointing their left arm up in the air before they turn. After watching a couple of them I have figured out that this means they are turning right. Is this some secret club or are you just trying to get hit by the car behind you when he has no idea which way you are going? Pointing at the sky indicates to me to look up, then you turn in front of me while I am looking for seagulls, eagles or whatever. Get a grip folks, if you want to turn right put out your right arm. It works for left turns it should work fine for right turns. Thanks for listening I feel better...
duke

I'm really surprised that you don't know about this. I think that 'pointing to the sky' is just your interpretation; it's just the standard hand signal that's been around for years. Beyond that though, it seems like you should be aware of it if for no other reason than you need to know how other cyclists may choose to signal.

[Onno]

Another problem with the 'old-fashioned-motorcyclist-and-car-driver' right-turn signal is that it's really hard to do if you are in a relatively tucked or stretched position on a road bike. If you are not sitting straight up, and you try the bent-arm, point to the sky signal, you'll in fact be pointing forward and not up, which is going to be really confusing even to those who know what it's supposed to mean. This is another reason to use your right arm pointing straight out to the side to signal a right turn, and the reason I instinctively do that, even though I was taught the other signal as a child and motorcyclist.

[rugbysecondrow]

Another problem with the 'old-fashioned-motorcyclist-and-car-driver' right-turn signal is that it's really hard to do if you are in a relatively tucked or stretched position on a road bike. If you are not sitting straight up, and you try the bent-arm, point to the sky signal, you'll in fact be pointing forward and not up, which is going to be really confusing even to those who know what it's supposed to mean. This is another reason to use your right arm pointing straight out to the side to signal a right turn, and the reason I instinctively do that, even though I was taught the other signal as a child and motorcyclist.

I guess I don't ride tucked or stretched in traffic. That seems dangerous to me, so I pull up and prepare myself for the intersection. Frankly, I think it is people opting to not use the established signals that will cause trouble for those who do. If there are established ways of communicating, standards (whether they are 100% properly understood or not) what is the point of deviating from it? Frankly, if the standard becomes point left-point right-point straight-wipe your ass...I don't care, so long as it is universal.

I will reiterate my greater point though: If you are traveling up to an intersection and you gesture to the right, does that provide the best visability? Will those both in your lane and the opposing lane see your gesture? If you take the same scenario and use your left hand and use the proper signal, the drivers in both your lane and opposing lanes have a better opportunity to see you...it is more visible. All drivers sit on the inside of traffic (center of the road). When I use my left hand, not only is it in the center of the road where there is a greater likelihood of being seen, but it is also up in the air where more people can see it. Frankly, if I am riding in traffic getting ready to turn ride with a car in front and a car behind me, and I point to the right, only the car directly behind me can actually see what I am doing. All other drivers, who are located on the left side of the car, will not see me make my gesture because they are blocked by other cars, especially oncoming cars who might turn left into me while I am turning right.

I am not certain what the gain is of creating some ad hoc gesture in traffic that has no established meaning. I think that is what creates confusion for drivers, cyclist with no consistent standard for behivior that is followed.

[Onno]

I have to quibble with all the points made in the previous post. I don't have to be particularly tucked to feel as though the bent left arm signal to turn right is mostly pointing forward. That might be because I've dislocated that shoulder a few times, and have lost a few degrees of mobility, but I don't think so. Try it now, at your desk. Leaning forward at 45 degrees, which is about what I would be at riding in traffic, my left arm signal is also at 45 degrees. From behind, someone is only going to see about half my forearm. That's a small, confusing signal.

So yes, for a right turn, my entire right arm pointing out to the side provides by far the best visibility. Traffic coming towards me will easily see it. Drivers coming up behind me will easily see it (if they are looking at all). The only people who might not see it are drivers already at the intersection, but they're not going to see any signal probably, and it's my responsibility to know where they are going.

Finally, the right arm sticking straight out is hardly an hoc signal. This thread shows that it is much more universally understood than the bent left arm.

[bikinchris]

First reason for doing the bent right arm signal; It's the law. You have to signal. Some states allow the straight right arm for right turns, like Texas and California. You need to look up your own state laws to see if it's legal.
Second reason; if you show an illegal signal (or fail to signal) the then get hit, you have no legal recourse. The uniform vehicle code states that you must signal (continuously) for at least 100 feet before a turn. I don't think any reasonable rider should keep their hand off the bars for that long in traffic, but your lane position should give them a clue as to what you intend.
Third reason for showing a good signal; you want other people to tell you what they intend to do. Don't be a you-know-what hole and please show signals like you want them to do.
This line of thinking goes further. The best reason to follow traffic law is because you want other people to follow traffic law around you.

This link should help you look up the hand signals in your state:
http://www.massbike.org/bikelaw/statelaws.htm

[rugbysecondrow]

So yes, for a right turn, my entire right arm pointing out to the side provides by far the best visibility. Traffic coming towards me will easily see it. Drivers coming up behind me will easily see it (if they are looking at all). The only people who might not see it are drivers already at the intersection, but they're not going to see any signal probably, and it's my responsibility to know where they are going.

.

Sorry man, I can't say I think your justification makes physical sense at all, I just think you are plain wrong. Doesn't bother me though, it is up to you if you want to make up your own signals when you ride. It is easier for everybody though if the uniform standards are employed. I have already explained my personal reasons for thinking it is a better signal.

[Seramount]

When was the last time anyone saw a motorist use the bent arm signal??? Since they don't use it, why would they understand it? Oh, it's in the motor vehicle manual that they looked at a decade or two or three ago.

Silly practice if you ask me.

I indicate my changes of direction by emphatically pointing with an index finger.

It's unambiguous.

[DukeHorn]

Since teens/college age adults are the most dangerous age group drivers (except for perhaps the very elderly), it seems against your own best interests to use a hand sign that they don't understand. Or is it so important to be "right" that you'll disregard your own safety?

[Blue Jays]

"...So yes, for a right turn, my entire right arm pointing out to the side provides by far the best visibility. Traffic coming towards me will easily see it. Drivers coming up behind me will easily see it (if they are looking at all). The only people who might not see it are drivers already at the intersection, but they're not going to see any signal probably, and it's my responsibility to know where they are going. Finally, the right arm sticking straight out is hardly an hoc signal. This thread shows that it is much more universally understood than the bent left arm..."Agree 100%. Our club members indicate left turns with a fully-extended left arm and right turns with a fully-extended right arm.
We also have drivers here from other countries who might not be familiar with the much older left-arm-only method.

[CaliFly]

When was the last time anyone saw a motorist use the bent arm signal??? Since they don't use it, why would they understand it? Oh, it's in the motor vehicle manual that they looked at a decade or two or three ago.

I saw this used no less than three times just today. Two were on motorcycles, and one in a car.

Saying it's silly doesn't make it wrong.

How about we turn the question around: Has anyone experience a confused driver by making either one of the left turn gestures in this discussion?

I ask because message board conjecture goes nowhere. There are obviously two sides of this fence with no chance of conversion one way or another. Mudslinging only serves to bring down the quality of the forum. Sharing actual experiences might actually do some good.

Cheers and good day. :beer:

[rugbysecondrow]

Since teens/college age adults are the most dangerous age group drivers (except for perhaps the very elderly), it seems against your own best interests to use a hand sign that they don't understand. Or is it so important to be "right" that you'll disregard your own safety?

When was the last time anyone saw a motorist use the bent arm signal??? Since they don't use it, why would they understand it? Oh, it's in the motor vehicle manual that they looked at a decade or two or three ago.

Silly practice if you ask me.

I indicate my changes of direction by emphatically pointing with an index finger.

It's unambiguous.

Which is it gentlemen? If the issue is that drivers are too far removed from the test to remember the rules, then would the younger drivers be the best cohert to remember the rule? Or if the issue is age and experience, wouldn't the older group be the best cohert? Or are we F***ed all the way around because most people are stupid and you just can't fix that?

Frankly, pointing to the right could indicate something else (look, deer fixing to jump out...EEEK!, or DOG...EEEK!, or man eating squirrel...Super EEEK!). The left hand turn signal can really only mean one thing. I guess somebody could confuse it with dive-bombing birds, but then I personally think that would be an arm pointing straight up, not bent. Just my opinion though.

I agree with Califly that this is not going to be resolved here. Whatever the accepted standard is at the time, you employ that and teach and educate others (motorists and bikers alike) the proper way of doing it...even if you think it is stupid. It will be easier for drivers to know this. Also, even though I disagree with the lazy right hand point, at least you are signally. That automatically puts you above 50% of the riders out there.

Fine job.

[Lifelover]

I have a 16 y/o that just finished divers ed, class and behind the wheel. Over the last few days I have asked him and all his friends and NONE of them were taught hand signals or had a clue that right hand pointing up means right turn. My 21 y/o niece was not taught them either. Not sure when t hey stopped teaching it but I suspect it has been 10+ years

You can continue to use it if you want, but a large portion of the driving population will have no clue what you are signaling. It's not an intuitive signal so I don't think they are going to pick up on it either.

Be safe.

[Seramount]

I saw this used no less than three times just today. Two were on motorcycles, and one in a car.

Saying it's silly doesn't make it wrong.



that's three times more than I've seen it used in the last 10 years by anyone. It's antiquated and as the previous poster said, not intuitively understood.

I use what I feel more clearly indicates my intentions and that enhances my personal safety.

Feel free to select your choice of signals using similar reasoning.

[Bruce K]

We go 'round and 'round and 'round in The Circle Game......

Time to move on.

BK