Indulge me in another steel question...

[Slave2Gus]

While I am sure this has been asked to some degree before, here's my twist. If I am considering a new frame, can a case be made for custom steel that trumps a well fitted carbon frame of good quality (e.g., Cervelo R3, Scott Addict, Giant TCR Advanced, etc.). I ask this particularly as one who lives where there is lots of climbing and descending and rides range in distance from short 25 mile jaunts to 100 mile days. Is modern steel light enough and responsive (stiff?) enough to quietly match the carbon hype or is it, in the end, more than hype? I get that there is something special about a handmade bike and the interaction with the builder but I am asking this based almost entirely on performance (whatever that may be in the bike world). FWIW, I am about 153lbs and would be on a relatively small frame(approx 51c).

[Acotts]

I dont think this question has an answer.

The only folks who this stuff really applies to dont have a choice as to what they ride.

A good steel bike wont hold you back and it wont keep you off the podium and new fancy carbon rig wont get you on the podium if you werent there before.

Its not about the bike.

[markie]

A modern steel frame might be 1lb heavier than a carbon frame. Does 1lb make a difference?

Personally I think the steel frame will look a lot nicer. :)

[Acotts]

^^ good point. A steel frame will get you cool points from folks whose opinions actually matter. (as opposed to weight-weener trendsters)

[soulspinner]

Damon Rinard tested tons of frames of all materials for stiffness and some steel frames were among the stiffest. The test is old but still valid. A test in a mag I read some months ago had a Pegoretti and frames of other materials tested. The Peg was the stiffest overall and it was a Marcelo. It was over three lbs though...

[MarinRider]

Some of my favorite bikes right now is a Pegoretti made of Columbus XCR, an Argonaut made of S3, and a Weigle made with JP's oversize tubing. They are among the best performing bikes I have ridden. I have (had) top end carbon bikes as well including Colnago EP, C50 and Time XVRS.

Interestingly the three steel bikes ride very differently from one another, so do the three carbon frames. But in terms of I-want-to-go-as-fast-as-I-can-and-scare-myself-silly-going-downhill, work with a builder and let him do his magic. Forget about what material it's made of.

[C5 Snowboarder]

While I am sure this has been asked to some degree before, here's my twist. If I am considering a new frame, can a case be made for custom steel that trumps a well fitted carbon frame of good quality (e.g., Cervelo R3, Scott Addict, Giant TCR Advanced, etc.). I ask this particularly as one who lives where there is lots of climbing and descending and rides range in distance from short 25 mile jaunts to 100 mile days. Is modern steel light enough and responsive (stiff?) enough to quietly match the carbon hype or is it, in the end, more than hype? I get that there is something special about a handmade bike and the interaction with the builder but I am asking this based almost entirely on performance (whatever that may be in the bike world). FWIW, I am about 153lbs and would be on a relatively small frame(approx 51c).

This is why one should have a Steel Bike, a Titanium Bike and a Carbon Bike in the stable.. each day may have a different answer.. :beer:

[flydhest]

This is why one should have a Steel Bike, a Titanium Bike and a Carbon Bike in the stable.. each day may have a different answer.. :beer:

I agree. It seems fairly critical to own Steel, Ti, and Carbon. For me, two Serottas (steel and Ti) and a Look.

As to the weight question, I think that argument is valid only as long as the carbon bikes are already below 15 pounds. There is almost always 1 to 2 pounds to be lost on compoenents and wheels and, usually, if you bought a steel frame instead of a carbon one, you have the difference in cash. I have always thought it would be interesting to take the best steel Serotta and the best carbon Serotta and then buy components to get them both to 15 pounds. Which one will cost less?

I honestly don't know the answer, but I think it would be fun.

Or take a Sachs and a Parlee. You get the idea.

[Jack Brunk]

Without question it's possible. My Speedvagen is a perfect example.

[Slave2Gus]

Clearly C5 Snowboarder has the most logical approach! :)

I have lusted for a Strong frame for some time and taken up his time with questions on a few occasions. BUT, if I do pull the plug I want it to be a bike for which I have no reservations down the road...it will be with me for some time to come (it's much easier to sell a used Cervelo R3, right?).

Soulspinner: I have wanted a Marcelo for years but they are kind of out of my range! Beautiful bikes though.

[CNY rider]

Clearly C5 Snowboarder has the most logical approach! :)

I have lusted for a Strong frame for some time and taken up his time with questions on a few occasions. BUT, if I do pull the plug I want it to be a bike for which I have no reservations down the road...it will be with me for some time to come (it's much easier to sell a used Cervelo R3, right?).

Soulspinner: I have wanted a Marcelo for years but they are kind of out of my range! Beautiful bikes though.

Cervelo is not even in Carl Strong's league.
Get the Strong, and if it weighs 2 pounds extra, lose 2 pounds from your waistline if you must.

[mike p]

I race at least once a week and most weeks 2 or 3 times. Current race bikes are a cheap C-dale Caad 9 and fuji Team RC. Also have a slew of steel bikes all of which I race depending on my mood, weather, and state of repairs. Weights go from 17.50 to 22 or 23 lbs. Never felt held back by a steel bike. They all feel different but mainly because of geometry not weight. New guys starting out always ask what they need to be competitive. I always say any frame that fits good (any material) with ultegra or better hung on it. If you feel really comfy on a bike it's worth quite a bit. I'd rather race a 23 lb steel bike I feel great on than a 16 lb bike I didn't.


Mike

[rustychain]

A custom bike has several advantages. The frame can be made to your exact geometry. That includes not only contact points but also weight distribution. It can be built for your riding style (out of saddle climbing or seated for one example). It can have the handling qualities that you desire as in fast or stable. It can be made for your weight and however stiff or compliant you like it. You can get all this in a stock bike perhaps if your lucky enough to be the exact spec the frame was designed for but its kind of hard for the rest of us. Now a carbon bike can be made to account for all these factors as well as a steel bike (at least by some builders) so the question gets down to two things IMO. Weight and durability/survivability. I ride an Independent Fabracation SSR (953) that is 15lbs soaking wet. I am a big guy and the frame was built with performance over weight in mind. I have seen 953 bikes as low as 14 lbs. If that's good enough for you then the advantage goes to steel for durability. If you want a 12lb bike its carbon without a doubt (forgetting a few wet noodle ti frames I have seen) and I should add.......ride the bike that speaks to you and forget all the above :beer:

[David Kirk]

Cervelo is not even in Carl Strong's league.
Get the Strong, and if it weighs 2 pounds extra, lose 2 pounds from your waistline if you must.

You got that right.

dave

[Peter P.]

If the price is the same or within a couple hundred bucks, then you can't touch a custom steel frame. Choose a reputable builder; I'd suggest one of the framebuilders who are founding members of the Framebuilders' Collective http://framebuilders.org/. You'll be certain to get a product with construction, fit, and geometry matched to your body and your needs. Sure; a stock carbon bike will probably work, but if you're not sure then you owe it to yourself to find out what a custom frame is all about.

Weight is irrelevant; the difference between any carbon and any steel frame will not mean the difference between winning and getting dropped. You could toss your waterbottle and save as much, but will it get you to the line first? I doubt it.

A custom frame will be sure to fit well and ride well after you and the builder collaborate on the design. And it will have a finish that will be attractive and unique to you.

Off the shelf bikes are for the masses-sorry if that sounds snobbish but I love the style of a custom frame.

[duke]

I think the rule is (or should be): Unless you are 5 percent body fat, you are not allowed to ask what the frame set weighs. Get the one that fits and looks cool to you.
duke

[fourflys]

Off the shelf bikes are for the masses-sorry if that sounds snobbish but I love the style of a custom frame.

Now, that's funny! I'm not discounting custom frames, but if you take the decals off my "mass produced" Rivendell Bleriot and a custom XXX bike I bet one would be hard pressed to figure out which is which. This is only talking "style", have no idea on ride...

[Slave2Gus]

You guys are great. :) :) Now I have to put the $$ aside and call Carl again.

[fourflys]

I think the rule is (or should be): Unless you are 5 percent body fat, you are not allowed to ask what the frame set weighs. Get the one that fits and looks cool to you.
duke


Bull(IMHO).... Some rec rider is more likely to feel the difference of a 15# bike and a 20# while trying to lug it up 3k worth of climbing then a some 5% bf elite rider... Besides a 15# bike soon becomes 20# with the addition of water bottles, cages, seat bag, etc and the 20# bike will gain the same weight making it even more noticable.
at least that's my .02...

[cmg]

"BUT, if I do pull the plug I want it to be a bike for which I have no reservations down the road...it will be with me for some time to come"

Man, is this a high expectation. ease up on this expectation and the decision would be easier. as long as the geometry on the custom isn't too far off from an off the shelf, selling it to buy another won't be a big deal. what's too far off from stock? adding 3-4 cm of top tube length, 2-3cm of head tube lenght or going to a really slack or upright seat tube angle. I've done the really slack seat tube angle. it doesn't have to be perfect. Strong is a great builder. Sold one his customs (custom for someone else) that had the taller head tube and upright seat tube angle, not a problem.

[OldDog]

Been riding for 35 years now. Had ti, carbon and steel. In the end, steel is the bike I always reach for. My now old ti rig is now a beater/trainer bike.

Go to Dave Kirks web site, then talk to him. You won't be sorry.

[maddog17]

i think you answered your own question by saying you've been thinking/talking with Strong. going with a custom builder gives you that chance to tell him what you want, how you want it and he can say either yes, no or we can try this or that. you don't get that from Cervelo, Scott, or Giant, hell not even Colnago. fwiw your on the right track working with Strong, or any of the builders that are out there and who post here. i think that one on one interaction is the main benefit your going to find works for your best interest and your riding pleasure. that phrase "steel is real" is so true.

[Bob Ross]

I have always thought it would be interesting to take the best steel Serotta and the best carbon Serotta and then buy components to get them both to 15 pounds. Which one will cost less?

That would be interesting. I had always wanted to take the best steel Serotta and the best carbon Serotta and then buy the exact same components for both...and then seeing if there's any discenible difference on the road.

[sspielman]

.

[BigDaddySmooth]

Y'know,
I have 2 steel frames (Yamaguchi w/S3 and Della Santa w/Dedda zero) and they both ride great. They are different too which always keeps me guessing. I have a Calfee Luna Tri that graces my Computrainer. It is a nice frame but it does not inspire me...the feel is steel is no BS. I once had a Pegoretti Fina Estampa. "Had" and aluminum...nuff said.

Get a custom from Strong (or Yama or DS or any of the other builders that don't have a 3 yr wait) and you will not regret it.

[Lionel]

Get the steel strong. My Strong XCr is 15.04 pounds with pedals and cages. This is for a 62cm frame. You can get it lighter with an lighter carbon frame. It would be hard to match the ride quality and the perfect fit.

Carl is very cool to work with. You won't regret it.

[ggross]

I agonized over this issue for far too long. I talked to many custom builders and ended up with a Sachs. I had a stock Waterford before that and a stock Cannondale before that. All good bikes. With that said, do what you want and don't look back. Buy and ride what makes you happy.

Kirk, Strong, Della Santa, Sachs - any one of them can make you a great bike.

[bnewt07]

I would distill your question into this.;

Do I buy stock or custom?

Frame materials are not going to hold you back. I believe that steel and carbon typically have different characetristics but thay tend to imbue the bike with slightly different personalities rather than bing good vs bad. Each material can also be built up with varying degrees of stiffness/weight etc. Not all carbon bikes are light.

If you reckon you are a brilliant fit on a stock bike then I might be less tempted to go custom but for me by far and away the best thing I have ever done for my cycling (after 15yrs of not getting it quite right on stock bikes) was to get a proper fitting and buy two custom frames. One is steel, one is carbon.

Make sure your budget leaves you enough for good finishing kit too. the other advantage of going custom may be to pick and choose exactly what goes on the frame. Few stock bikes sold complete will be just as you would choose.

Bruce

[happycampyer]

A few more thoughts to add to the mix...

I would be surprised if you preferred the ride quality of any of the three bikes you mentioned over a custom steel bike, especially after 100 miles in the saddle. Not to mention the fact that, in your size (51 cm), even if you got your contact points just right, many of the mass produced carbon race bikes have sub-optimal geos since every bike in the range has the same fork with the same rake, etc. Either the wheelbase is too short, or there's not enough trail, so there's toe overlap or the handling is off, etc.

IMHO, pretty much any of the boutique builders in steel or ti (Serotta, IF, Carl Strong, Dave Kirk, etc.) will build you a bike that you will prefer to ride, even if it's their "stock" geo in your size.

[1centaur]

For a given weight you will lose a little stiffness from steel bikes, from what I can tell. As a tool for a non-pro-racer they will both deliver the goods. I gave up metal bikes because I don't like the way they transmit vibrations, the extra weight, or the extra inefficiency at a given weight, nor do I view a steel ride as smooth. But I am very focused on ride sensations, not the tool-ness of the bike. That said, I doubt the carbon rides mentioned by the OP are in the upper echelon of ride sensations - to me those are light and efficient tools, so a steel bike just becomes a tool of a different weight and feel (which one either likes or doesn't). If the comparison was between a Crumpton/Parlee/Calfee and a steel bike I would be far more jingoistic.

BTW, asking whether steel bikes are good on the Serotta forum is like asking guys in a strip club if they like looking at attractive women.

[soulspinner]

I would distill your question into this.;

Do I buy stock or custom?

Frame materials are not going to hold you back. I believe that steel and carbon typically have different characetristics but thay tend to imbue the bike with slightly different personalities rather than bing good vs bad. Each material can also be built up with varying degrees of stiffness/weight etc. Not all carbon bikes are light.

If you reckon you are a brilliant fit on a stock bike then I might be less tempted to go custom but for me by far and away the best thing I have ever done for my cycling (after 15yrs of not getting it quite right on stock bikes) was to get a proper fitting and buy two custom frames. One is steel, one is carbon.

Make sure your budget leaves you enough for good finishing kit too. the other advantage of going custom may be to pick and choose exactly what goes on the frame. Few stock bikes sold complete will be just as you would choose.

Bruce


Yo are so right about the kit. that my Strong steel is lighter than a 4 series Madone is funny. Wheels matter so much.

[happycampyer]

For a given weight you will lose a little stiffness from steel bikes, from what I can tell. As a tool for a non-pro-racer they will both deliver the goods. I gave up metal bikes because I don't like the way they transmit vibrations, the extra weight, or the extra inefficiency at a given weight, nor do I view a steel ride as smooth. But I am very focused on ride sensations, not the tool-ness of the bike. That said, I doubt the carbon rides mentioned by the OP are in the upper echelon of ride sensations - to me those are light and efficient tools, so a steel bike just becomes a tool of a different weight and feel (which one either likes or doesn't). If the comparison was between a Crumpton/Parlee/Calfee and a steel bike I would be far more jingoistic.

BTW, asking whether steel bikes are good on the Serotta forum is like asking guys in a strip club if they like looking at attractive women.Its funny, I was going to say in my post that the same could be said about boutique builders in carbon (i.e., that those builders—the three you mentioned, and I would certainly add Serotta, and now, with the Corvid, IF, etc.—will build a bike that the OP would prefer to ride, even if it's their "stock" geo in his size).

Fwiw, there are other mass-produced carbon bikes that I would gravitate towards over the ones mentioned in the OP, but I ride a mid-sized frame (56cm-ish), and I think that the geos in the mid size ranges of those bikes tend to work better than in the smaller sizes.

[Trouble]

While I am sure this has been asked to some degree before, here's my twist. If I am considering a new frame, can a case be made for custom steel that trumps a well fitted carbon frame of good quality (e.g., Cervelo R3, Scott Addict, Giant TCR Advanced, etc.). I ask this particularly as one who lives where there is lots of climbing and descending and rides range in distance from short 25 mile jaunts to 100 mile days. Is modern steel light enough and responsive (stiff?) enough to quietly match the carbon hype or is it, in the end, more than hype? I get that there is something special about a handmade bike and the interaction with the builder but I am asking this based almost entirely on performance (whatever that may be in the bike world). FWIW, I am about 153lbs and would be on a relatively small frame(approx 51c).

Having a builder build a bike just for you is always the way to go. Mass production of bikes (shoes and clothes for that matter) has been forced on us by ... forget it, I won't go there.

Many have mentioned how a builder can get you balanced on a the bike and that is the most important aspect of comfortable, confident, fast and exciting cycling IMO.

Just think about your comment "Is modern steel light enough" ... "enough to quietly match the carbon hype"
Take the combined weights of bike frame, components, rider and gear. What % of weight are you talking about now? Do YOU really think that is going to matter? IF you do, then get a carbon bike off the shelf with the manufactures labels pasted all over it and ride on.

I have only had steel bikes and my only regret is that on my last custom steel bike (Steelman) I didn't get a steel fork. My next steel bike (this one will be lugged as opposed to tig'ed) will have a steel fork...man, they just look purdy.
There have been some beautiful pictures posted of steel lugged bikes that just make me so envious... carbon bikes don't even catch my eye.

I hope you're happy with your ride, what ever it is, because not being happy on or with your bike sucks.