how do you steer?

[allegretto]

when you're clicking along say at least 15 MPH and above and a bend/curve is coming;

do you steer or counter steer? for those who do both, what makes up your mind?

i come from a lot of motorcycling and there counter steer is clearly the way to go the faster you're going, but after playing around both ways with bicycles i can see the use of each.

thanks

[flydhest]

at 15? seriously?

[djg21]

when you're clicking along say at least 15 MPH and above and a bend/curve is coming;

do you steer or counter steer? for those who do both, what makes up your mind?

i come from a lot of motorcycling and there counter steer is clearly the way to go the faster you're going, but after playing around both ways with bicycles i can see the use of each.

thanks

I steer when I want to pedal through a turn and maintain speed. The bike remains upright and there is less risk of clipping a pedal. I also steer when traction is not optimal. I countersteer during faster turns, like on descents where I am not worried about clipping a pedal.

[allegretto]

at 15? seriously?

OK, at 20 or more. i was just saying not at low speed

[SadieKate]

at 15? seriously?Yeah, seriously. Try 15 mph on singletrack. Countersteer all the way.

[RPS]

do you steer or counter steer? for those who do both, what makes up your mind?Could you define the difference? Serious question.

[flydhest]

Yeah, seriously. Try 15 mph on singletrack. Countersteer all the way.

Kate,
I will buy you a beer if it was not road biking that the OP meant.

Two.

Seriously.

[Dave]

Could you define the difference? Serious question.

Those who ride motorcyles have a much better understanding of countersteering - at least those who took a training course. One of the first things that you learn is to countersteer at any speed faster than a parking lot crawl. At any aignificant speed, you push on the right side of the handlebar (like turning left) to lean the bike to the right so it can turn to the right. If the bike is not turning sharp enough, you push harder. If you quit pushing, the bike will straighten up on it's own.

Bikes are so light that the countersteering effort required is very low - so low that a lot of people don't even realize that they are doing it. If you go into a hairpin turn on a mountain descent, you'll learn quickly what countersteering is all about. Fail to keep pushing on the right side of the bar in a right hand turn and you will swing wide and cross the centerline into oncoming traffic. This is a common cause of motorcycle wrecks. Those with little experience or no proper training may come into a corner too fast and rather than push hard on the bars to turn sharply and (back off the throttle), they panic and quit pushing altogether, with the result being a trip over the centerline and perhaps off the left side of the road.

[MattTuck]

Counter-steer, as I understand it, is like pushing the right handlebar forward in order to change the balance of the bike and cause you to steer to the right.

I use a combination of both, but don't know that I have a "hard and fast" rule for which to use. I just do what comes naturally in that situation.

[JeffS]

Can't say that I've given though to steering a bike since I was six or so.

Either way, it's really a misleading question. In a single given situation you don't have the option of steering or countersteering. Only one is going to produce the desired result.

[CNY rider]

Kate,
I will buy you a beer if it was not road biking that the OP meant.

Two.

Seriously.

He's not kidding.
He can print his own frn's to pay for it! :beer:

[djg21]

Counter-steer, as I understand it, is like pushing the right handlebar forward in order to change the balance of the bike and cause you to steer to the right.

I use a combination of both, but don't know that I have a "hard and fast" rule for which to use. I just do what comes naturally in that situation.

Stated another way, in a countersteer, the front wheel is directed away from the turn. If you are turning right, pressure is applied the right side of the bar so the front wheel is turned slightly to the left. This will result in the bike (and you) leaning into the turn.

By contrast, in a steered turn, the front wheel is turned in the direction you want to turn, and the bike remains more upright. To do this, you will have to keep your body to the inside of the bike (so the seat is to the outside of your crotch, between your crotch and thigh).

[allegretto]

Could you define the difference? Serious question.

sure.

it turns out that tires respect what's called "slip angles". that is trading force along the longitudinal vector for some force along an orthogonal one. that slip angle doesn't care which direction you travel.

typically one learns early to turn "into" a turn, as on a tricycle for example. that works, but it comes up with problems at speed. the faster you go, the more opposing forces build up. your weight (force) gets shifted to the outside of a turn, and the bike wants to stand back up and you're in a vicious spiral. go fast enough and either you drift wide, or worse yet, you being to drift and the first intuitive response is to brake/slow down. this causes you to go even wider!

if instead you exert a counterforce (steer R to go L) while simultaneously shifting your weight to the inside (L in this example) you will find that very little effort causes a beautiful and stable carve that is far faster. if your bike is static you'll notice that it wants to fall away from the direction you turn the bars.

on a motorcycle this is how they drag knees. you cannot achieve those angles steering 'IN" only "OUT" or "countersteering" your only limit is the coefficient of friction and your tires, unless you drag hardware and lift the wheels off the road.

it's like riding with a fine gyroscope for stability. i would guess the Physics calcs are much the same as for an orbit in that you are literally falling but your angular acceleration is sufficient to counteract gravity.

[allegretto]

Can't say that I've given though to steering a bike since I was six or so.

Either way, it's really a misleading question. In a single given situation you don't have the option of steering or countersteering. Only one is going to produce the desired result.

not true at all, sorry

[Matt Barkley]

Hips. :beer:

[Steve-O]

Long ago when I did more MTB riding I was told to point my belly button in the direction I wanted to turn. This effectively shifted my weight and made cornering easier. It also seems to work on a roadbike but the effect is much more subtle then on the dirt.

Don't know about countersteering... Never given it a thought... Somehow I ride up the mountain and down the mountain and don't crash...

[WadePatton]

never thought about it.

seriously.

pick a line and hit it.

[MilanoTom]

never thought about it.

seriously.

pick a line and hit it.

+1

If I gave it too much thought, I'd do a crappy job at it. I just lean and let physics take over.

Regards,
Tom

[RPS]

sure.

it turns out that tires respect what's called "slip angles". that is trading force along the longitudinal vector for some force along an orthogonal one. that slip angle doesn't care which direction you travel.

typically one learns early to turn "into" a turn, as on a tricycle for example. that works, but it comes up with problems at speed. the faster you go, the more opposing forces build up. your weight (force) gets shifted to the outside of a turn, and the bike wants to stand back up and you're in a vicious spiral. go fast enough and either you drift wide, or worse yet, you being to drift and the first intuitive response is to brake/slow down. this causes you to go even wider!

if instead you exert a counterforce (steer R to go L) while simultaneously shifting your weight to the inside (L in this example) you will find that very little effort causes a beautiful and stable carve that is far faster. if your bike is static you'll notice that it wants to fall away from the direction you turn the bars.

on a motorcycle this is how they drag knees. you cannot achieve those angles steering 'IN" only "OUT" or "countersteering" your only limit is the coefficient of friction and your tires, unless you drag hardware and lift the wheels off the road.

it's like riding with a fine gyroscope for stability. i would guess the Physics calcs are much the same as for an orbit in that you are literally falling but your angular acceleration is sufficient to counteract gravity.
Thanks…….. I already knew about counter steering but wanted to better understand why you were asking. I found the question itself interesting by your differentiating between steering and counter steering.

Tire slip angle, steering a tricycle, and dragging a knee are variables I would normally consider unrelated for the most part.

For instance, steering a tricycle is completely different than steering a bike because balancing is not involved (unless it starts to tip over). Tricycles simply transfer weight to the outside tires much like cars do; but bikes are inherently unstable and must be balanced continuously to keep them upright.

Allegretto, we are definitely on different pages on this subject. To avoid hijacking your thread I’ll remain out of it. Good luck. :beer:

[allegretto]

Tire slip angle, steering a tricycle, and dragging a knee are variables I would normally consider unrelated for the most part.




not sure why you think i equated/related those three, but OK. in fact, i thought i differentiated them :beer:

[RPS]

not sure why you think i equated/related those three, but OK. in fact, i thought i differentiated them :beer:
English is my second language so you need to be precise in order to avoid confusing me. ;)

I don’t know whether the above is now referring to differentiating between tire slip angles, steering tricycles, and dragging knees or if you are referring to differentiating between steering and counter steering which was my original question. :confused: I expect it was the latter and in all honesty the answer did not make much sense to me.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT: How many ways can a rider steer a bicycle if not by counter steering? If you can answer that correctly I think you’ll answer your own questions. :beer:

[andy mac]

give it a crack. it's pretty fun!

and if you don't think you can go faster downhill, you're not tryin. just watch the diff in the tour riders.

:beer:

[allegretto]

English is my second language so you need to be precise in order to avoid confusing me. ;)

I don’t know whether the above is now referring to differentiating between tire slip angles, steering tricycles, and dragging knees or if you are referring to differentiating between steering and counter steering which was my original question. :confused: I expect it was the latter and in all honesty the answer did not make much sense to me.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT: How many ways can a rider steer a bicycle if not by counter steering? If you can answer that correctly I think you’ll answer your own questions. :beer:

no, i was speaking of the former.

hey, it's all good by me too. i did my Physics 35 yrs ago and my daily work, while in sciences is not in the textbook Physics. if you're doing it every day i'm sure you're further up the curve than me. so i won't argue the equations hammer and tong. besides, there is soooo much in the Universe that i don't know, and sadly, not enough time left to learn it all.

but

i did race motorcycles as a young man and there are two ways to initiate and maintain a line. if you try turning your front wheel into a turn and gas it you stand a very good chance of getting hurt...real bad! you see guys slowing down thru turns all the time because intuitively they know they're not gonna make it.

but as andy mac here seems to know, and some others, if you countersteer (turn the bars the other direction) not only can you carve sweeter and faster, but you can roll on the throttle, push even harder (gradually, as with the throttle) and achieve ridiculous lean angles and speeds, even with your Honda.

now a bicycle doesn't have the power of a motorcycle (at least for most of us) so i'm not sure yet how far i can push it. but i'm going to experiment a little at a time. it seems clear from responses here that many just turn the bars into a turn, and as an early poster pointed out, that works too and may be desirable in certain instances. but clearly there are two separate ways of getting the bike to rotate, and while i can't master the math as you perhaps can, if you tell me they are the same thing, i'll have to not agree.

but either way, i'd like to hear your input :beer:

[nahtnoj]

I was playing with this recently.

I used to do a lot of MTB riding. When really cooking on an MTB, the best way to steer (on twisty singletrack) is to sit upright and throw your hips around, which definitely leads to counter-steering. On the road, I tend more to steer, simply as a result of positioning on the bike.


On another note, do you find riding to be thrilling in a speed sense? I got really bored with trail running b/c things were moving too slow. I'm thinking the bike/cup car disparity would be even greater.

[allegretto]

I was playing with this recently.

I used to do a lot of MTB riding. When really cooking on an MTB, the best way to steer (on twisty singletrack) is to sit upright and throw your hips around, which definitely leads to counter-steering. On the road, I tend more to steer, simply as a result of positioning on the bike.


On another note, do you find riding to be thrilling in a speed sense? I got really bored with trail running b/c things were moving too slow. I'm thinking the bike/cup car disparity would be even greater.

Ha Ha!!! you are one sharp observer! :beer:

no doubt, the speed of the Cup, the G's, the acceleration are all... amazing

but the bike is really great fun too. on another thread someone said it's like flying. i felt that way when i took up downhill skiing and i feel more the same with biking

in the car there are many thrills as i said. but on my bike it's faaaarrr quieter, the breeze is sweet (no fumes or burning clutches and rubber) and the sights can be appreciated because i can take a moment to look at them as i pass. in the racecar it's all concentration on what's next or trouble happens very fast!

so they both thrill me, in entirely different ways is the best answer i can give.

[RPS]

but either way, i'd like to hear your input :beer:
If you ask me if I steer or counter steer my bicycles, my answer is yes. IMO I do both because I see them as one and the same for all practical purposes. Do I think about it…….no. It comes naturally.

IMHO a person can not ride a bicycle normally without counter steering. Therefore, except for a few rare exceptions, I don’t differentiate between “steering” and “counter steering”. The only real difference I see is whether the rider does it “deliberately” or whether they do it “naturally” without thinking of why they did it. To me it’s mostly semantics but the result is the same. I personally expect those who think they counter steer versus just plain steer a bicycle is due to the intensity of the steering input in order to achieve a more sudden change in direction (i.e. – quicker or more abrupt input requires a more deliberate commitment). When coaches teach riders to counter steer all they are doing in my opinion is teaching them to do what they were already doing but with much greater force to achieve a more immediate response.

Granted there are other ways to change direction on a bicycle like when we ride hands off the bars. We can also achieve a steering input by shifting our weight on the bicycle which creates a couple about the steering axis due to trail, but the magnitude of such inputs is so limited that it won’t suffice for normal handling. To ride a bicycle normally and negotiate typical turns a rider has to counter steer all the time whether they do it deliberately or not. It’s needed to enter a turn, to alter the line in the middle of a turn, and to exit a turn. IMO it’s a basic and necessary part of balancing a bicycle that we all have to do. We don't get a choice.

Hence I found your OP question interesting because to me (based on my personal opinions) it’s more like asking riders whether they think in advance about what to do or if they just do it naturally. :beer:

[David Kirk]

I contend that one is forced to either steer or counter-steer depending on the speed involved. If you are going walking speed it is very difficult to counter-steer. Counter-steering is just a way to get the bike to lean over to carve a turn and if you are going very slowly and you try to lean deep into a turn you will fall to the inside as there isn't enough force to balance you. The same thing, but in the opposite direction, is true at speed. If you are going 30 mph and try to change direction without counter-steering you will either high-side and fall over to the outsdie or you will stop turning to save your skin. I feel we don't get much of a choice.

We can however exploit the turning method to the full to get the most out of the bike. This is especially true at higher speeds and on iffy surfaces. A good rider will steer at the lowest speeds, blend normal steering and counter-steering at middle speeds ad will counter-steer exclusively at high speeds.

dave

[rugbysecondrow]

I don't see how this is a complicated question. The OP asked a question about technique.

I think this link nails it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Most importantly, "It is important to distinguish between countersteering as a physical phenomenon and countersteering as a rider technique for initiating a lean (the usual interpretation of the term)."

If somebody asks a legit question, lets try to help them out.

As a new rider, I am still trying to get a feel for the counter steering technique, but I find I can take turn faster than my non-countersteering technique utilizing friends. Also, I feel more in control as I can handle the corner and decent better if I see debris, squirrels etc. Still learning though.

Cheers

[djg21]

If you ask me if I steer or counter steer my bicycles, my answer is yes. IMO I do both because I see them as one and the same for all practical purposes. Do I think about it…….no. It comes naturally.

IMHO a person can not ride a bicycle normally without counter steering. Therefore, except for a few rare exceptions, I don’t differentiate between “steering” and “counter steering”. The only real difference I see is whether the rider does it “deliberately” or whether they do it “naturally” without thinking of why they did it. To me it’s mostly semantics but the result is the same. I personally expect those who think they counter steer versus just plain steer a bicycle is due to the intensity of the steering input in order to achieve a more sudden change in direction (i.e. – quicker or more abrupt input requires a more deliberate commitment). When coaches teach riders to counter steer all they are doing in my opinion is teaching them to do what they were already doing but with much greater force to achieve a more immediate response.

Granted there are other ways to change direction on a bicycle like when we ride hands off the bars. We can also achieve a steering input by shifting our weight on the bicycle which creates a couple about the steering axis due to trail, but the magnitude of such inputs is so limited that it won’t suffice for normal handling. To ride a bicycle normally and negotiate typical turns a rider has to counter steer all the time whether they do it deliberately or not. It’s needed to enter a turn, to alter the line in the middle of a turn, and to exit a turn. IMO it’s a basic and necessary part of balancing a bicycle that we all have to do. We don't get a choice.

Hence I found your OP question interesting because to me (based on my personal opinions) it’s more like asking riders whether they think in advance about what to do or if they just do it naturally. :beer:


Steering at speed, rather than countersteering, requires some thought and a little practice. In particular, you have to get comfortable getting your body inside the bike, and not sitting squarely in the saddle while in the turn.
If you try to steer through a corner at speed without changing your position on the bike, you will at best scallop your turn, if you don't crash (reference was made in an early post to "high-siding" on a motorcycle).

I think about steering turns through corners in criteriums when possible. Because you can pedal through turns when steering, you can maintain a more constant speed rather than get caught up in the constant accordioning of slowing and accelerating. It also is an effective way of dealing with a slick or wet corners because your pedals, and hence your rear tire, are always engaged.

[Ray]

I contend that one is forced to either steer or counter-steer depending on the speed involved. If you are going walking speed it is very difficult to counter-steer. Counter-steering is just a way to get the bike to lean over to carve a turn and if you are going very slowly and you try to lean deep into a turn you will fall to the inside as there isn't enough force to balance you. The same thing, but in the opposite direction, is true at speed. If you are going 30 mph and try to change direction without counter-steering you will either high-side and fall over to the outsdie or you will stop turning to save your skin. I feel we don't get much of a choice.

We can however exploit the turning method to the full to get the most out of the bike. This is especially true at higher speeds and on iffy surfaces. A good rider will steer at the lowest speeds, blend normal steering and counter-steering at middle speeds ad will counter-steer exclusively at high speeds.

dave
Again with a +1 to Mr. Kirk. At parking lot speeds and at very low speeds on very tight single-track, you sometimes "steer" by turning the front wheel in the direction you hope to go. And your body weight is well to the inside to keep the bike going that way instead of toppling over the other way. At any sort of speed at all (and I'm not sure where this starts, but I suspect its well south of 15 mph) pretty much EVERY turn involves counter-steering, whether conscious or not, because, as Dave said, if you tried turning the wheel toward the direction you were going, you'd fly off the other side of the bike.

90% of countersteering happens without thinking about it, even for a rank beginner. Once you've been riding for awhile and are trying some relatively high speed descending for the first few times, it can pay to think about it a bit, because when you are conscious of applying pressure to the inside of the handlebar as you go through a turn, you can really fine tune your line as needed in high speed cornering. But even this level of counter-steering becomes unconscious after you've been riding for a while.

Now back to Rick and the other engineers to convert all of this stuff into longitudinal vectors and the like! :cool:

-Ray

[RPS]

Now back to Rick and the other engineers to convert all of this stuff into longitudinal vectors and the like! :cool:

-Ray
I feared getting involved because of semantics and how much misinformation ATMO there is on this subject. I honestly don’t get the idea that any rider going straight (at reasonable riding speeds) can turn right by first and only steering right. That’s a guaranteed way to get road rash on your left side.

Ray, we don’t have to analyze much at all to know for a fact that if any rider is going in a straight line and they suddenly point their front wheel towards the right and do nothing else they will fall on their left side. Period. Speed has little to do with the physics of it other than to allow the motion to develop much slower to the point that it may seem like a different event. As I stated in a previous post, I acknowledge that we can steer by leaning a bike so as to create a slight steering input, but that’s so minor that I hope we don’t waste time here with such insignificance. For those who think that leaning a bike by itself can achieve quick turns just go out and try it without using your hands and see what happens.

I also know there are a lot of people who have argued in the past that it takes speed to make counter steering possible because of the gyro effect of the wheels, but that’s completely misleading because it has been proven that bikes with zero gyro effect can be ridden and steered adequately. It may help incrementally but is not necessary.

All we need to know is that a bike has to lean into a turn in order to balance forces so that it doesn’t fall over. To initiate that “lean” the rider has to get his/her CG to the inside so that the bike starts to fall in that direction until the right amount of lean is achieved; at which time he has to do the opposite to stop the leaning process. And to do that the bike has to be steered in the opposite direction "initially" to get things going (hence the term counter steering). If you are saying that this is different at 10, 20, or 30 MPH I’d like to know exactly how and why. Whether some call it counter steering at high speed and plain old steering at low speeds makes little difference to me (I don't get caught up with names).

I’ve gone back and read every post a least a couple of times and have yet to see where anyone has described and alternate means to initiate getting a bike to lean (whether at low or high speeds) without the simple act of moving the tires from one side to the other of the rider/bike CG in order to control which way the bike leans. Beyond that it’s a matter of controlling the right amount of lean depending on speed and desired radius.


BTW: As far as I know I haven’t disagreed with anyone about proper cornering technique, but rather have only pointed out that IMHO what is often being described regarding the mechanics of steering a bicycle is not physically possible – at least while staying upright. According to my opinion. :rolleyes:

[allegretto]

i won't quibble with the initiation. it's what happens next

if you apply the proper increment of motive force instead of turning back into the turn, you can keep increasing the force in the opposite direction and achieve more lean. indeed, assuming you have good control, you can literally increase or decrease the radius of your line by turning opposite the way you want to go, or by increasing or decreasing your motive force.

do you disagree?

[johnnymossville]

I just want to say I've really enjoyed reading this thread.

[David Kirk]

I think the thing that is getting lost here is that once you are moving more than walking speed you turn not by steering but by leaning. The bike leans and carves in an arc. As long as the forces are applied it will continue to lean and turn. Once you back off on the force it will un-lean and go straight. All counter-steering does is lean the bike in a controllable way. To change direction to the right the rider pushes forward and down on the right side of the handlebar - this in turn makes the bike turn ever so slightly OUT FROM UNDERNEATH the rider and this puts the bike into a lean. Through use of skill and technique the rider balances the forces to maintain or terminate the lean and the turn.

So we don't really turn the bars left to go right - we turn the bars left to get the bike to lean right and that makes the bike continue to "fall" to the right as long as the rider wants.

dave

[JeffS]

All we need to know is that a bike has to lean into a turn in order to balance forces so that it doesn’t fall over. To initiate that “lean” the rider has to get his/her CG to the inside so that the bike starts to fall in that direction until the right amount of lean is achieved; at which time he has to do the opposite to stop the leaning process. And to do that the bike has to be steered in the opposite direction "initially" to get things going (hence the term counter steering). If you are saying that this is different at 10, 20, or 30 MPH I’d like to know exactly how and why. Whether some call it counter steering at high speed and plain old steering at low speeds makes little difference to me (I don't get caught up with names).



I was with you up until there. Turning the wheel is not the only way to transfer weight on a bicycle.

[sg8357]

If you want to find out how you, personally steer a bike,
try a British upright racing trike. Your trained instincts will
have you heading straight into the nearest wall. You will
be driven crazy, you steer in the direction you want to go
and lean in the opposite direction of the the turn, a**backwards
from a bicycle. The unlearning required to handle a racing trike
is very educational in learning how you have been riding your
regular bike.

For real terror, a friend has a Jack Taylor Tandem racing trike, I dare
you to ride the thing on a downhill highspeed turn.

[johnnymossville]

If you want to find out how you, personally steer a bike,
try a British upright racing trike...

It must be very similar to riding a motorcycle with a sidecar only the effect is magnified since a bike is much lighter than a motorcycle.

[RPS]

i won't quibble with the initiation. it's what happens next

if you apply the proper increment of motive force instead of turning back into the turn, you can keep increasing the force in the opposite direction and achieve more lean. indeed, assuming you have good control, you can literally increase or decrease the radius of your line by turning opposite the way you want to go, or by increasing or decreasing your motive force.

do you disagree?
Yes, I mostly disagree with the above because if you continue to turn right in order to turn left you'll fall very quickly when riding a bicycle. This is not a motorcycle forum and I therefore assume most threads are bicycle related unless they specifically state they are about motorcycles (which have far more power than a bicycle which can be used to alter steering). Based on the definition that I accept for bicycles counter-steering is a "transient" (i.e. -- momentary action to get things going in the right direction) input most all the time with a few exceptions (which don't come into play for most of us riding a bike very often). As shown in the picture someone posted previously, an exception is when the rear tire breaks loose and comes around. The cyclist may be able to keep the bike up by countersteering -- but I seriously doubt that kind of rare exception is what is being discussed here by most people.

IMO we are beating a dead horse. It doesn’t make any difference to me what we call it or what we think we are doing since we will continue to do it anyway for lack of viable choices. :)

[Dave]

[QUOTE=djg21]Steering at speed, rather than countersteering, requires some thought and a little practice. In particular, you have to get comfortable getting your body inside the bike, and not sitting squarely in the saddle while in the turn.
If you try to steer through a corner at speed without changing your position on the bike, you will at best scallop your turn, if you don't crash (reference was made in an early post to "high-siding" on a motorcycle).

[QUOTE]

I've been descending the Colorado mountains 3-5 times a week for 6 years now and I have no problem going around corners at 35-40 mph, sitting squarely in the saddle. The only MUST is raising the inside pedal so it doesn't contact the pavement and applying the proper amount of countersteering. Hairpin turns really bring out the importance of countersteering. There is no need to alter your body position on the bike. Lean with the bike, not more or less and you'll get through the turn faster than the average guy.

I've got some motorcyle experience, and always thought that a high side was the result of locking the rear tire and swapping ends (the rear tries to come around to the front).

The only wrecks I've had were due to insufficient traction from sand and/or wet roads. I've done the predictable slide-out from that situation twice in about 500 10-mile descents.

[RPS]

I think the thing that is getting lost here is that once you are moving more than walking speed you turn not by steering but by leaning. The bike leans and carves in an arc. As long as the forces are applied it will continue to lean and turn. Once you back off on the force it will un-lean and go straight. All counter-steering does is lean the bike in a controllable way. To change direction to the right the rider pushes forward and down on the right side of the handlebar - this in turn makes the bike turn ever so slightly OUT FROM UNDERNEATH the rider and this puts the bike into a lean. Through use of skill and technique the rider balances the forces to maintain or terminate the lean and the turn.
This again is mostly semantics but with all due respect I have to disagree with you 100 percent on this to keep the science correct.

We lean a bike not in order to achieve a turn, but because it has to be leaned in order to balance forces that would make us fall over if we didn’t lean the correct amount for the given conditions. Although it may seem completely unimportant to most everyone here this distinction is very important to my way of analyzing what is being said.

If we draw a 100-foot-radius circle in the middle of a flat and level mall parking lot and we go around it in circles what actually happens regarding lean? It depends on speed, right? When we start slowly the bike doesn’t have to be lean much (in fact it can’t be leaned much because we’d fall over). As we pick up speed we increase lean but not to make it turn, but to keep from falling due to an imbalance of forces.

Again it’s mostly semantics, but worth noting that leaning is not done in order to make a bike turn, but rather it’s done because it is necessary to maintain balance. Simply attaching a side car or an outrigger to a bicycle would eliminate having to lean at all even though it could still maneuver turns successfully. It may seem like an unimportant chicken-and-egg argument but IMO it’s critical we agree on the basics otherwise it’s pointless to communicate when we are talking in Greek and Chinese.


So we don't really turn the bars left to go right - we turn the bars left to get the bike to lean right and that makes the bike continue to "fall" to the right as long as the rider wants.

dave
I agree with this 100 percent but I call it turning left “momentarily” (a transient input) to start a right turn – hence the definition of counter steering.

[RPS]

I was with you up until there. Turning the wheel is not the only way to transfer weight on a bicycle.
I don't recall saying it was -- just that counter steering is the only "fast" way to initiate a significant amount of lean in order to accomplish a quick or sudden turn. We can all ride hands off by merely shifting our weight around ever so slightly, but it's not possible (for most of us) to make sudden turns without having our hands on the bars. As I stated before, if you don't believe it's very limiting, go out and try it. Just make sure you wear a helmet and lots of padding though.

[Dave]

I agree with this 100 percent but I call it turning left “momentarily” (a transient input) to start a right turn – hence the definition of counter steering.


One of the major points or disagreement in a recent discussion of cornering was the idea of "starting" a turn with momentary input of countersteering and the idea that a bike would then keep turning with no further input. I believe that it is necessary to countersteer continuously, while some believe that a bike will keep turning without further input, once the turn is initiated.

I only rode a motorcycle for 1 year and 3500 miles, but I don't remember the bike continuing to turn unless I applied continuous countersteering pressure. I rode the same winding mountain descents on the motorcycle, that I currently ride on my bicycle. If you quit pushing, the bike will straighten up immediately, not keep turning on it's own. If the bike did not self-straighten, a right hand turn could only be stopped by pushing on the left side of the bars. I don't remember ever doing that. I even proved that recently by negotiating a number of turns using only one hand (open) so no opposing force could be applied.

[David Kirk]

This again is mostly semantics but with all due respect I have to disagree with you 100 percent on this to keep the science correct.

We lean a bike not in order to achieve a turn, but because it has to be leaned in order to balance forces that would make us fall over if we didn’t lean the correct amount for the given conditions. Although it may seem completely unimportant to most everyone here this distinction is very important to my way of analyzing what is being said.


Seems like a chicken and egg question to me. They both have to occur for it to work and you have a hard time doing one without the other.

The big thing here is for you to feel you are right - so I'll let this dead horse have the rest of the day off and say it. You are right.


dave

[uno-speedo]

Scandinavian flick ;)

[Flat Out]

Countersteering is consistently misunderstood, overexplained, and overthought. This thread hasn't done much to change my opinion of that. We've been doing it since we were kids, folks. It ain't that complicated.

[fierte_poser]

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Decide for yourself.

[djg21]

I've been descending the Colorado mountains 3-5 times a week for 6 years now and I have no problem going around corners at 35-40 mph, sitting squarely in the saddle. The only MUST is raising the inside pedal so it doesn't contact the pavement and applying the proper amount of countersteering. Hairpin turns really bring out the importance of countersteering. There is no need to alter your body position on the bike. Lean with the bike, not more or less and you'll get through the turn faster than the average guy.

I've got some motorcyle experience, and always thought that a high side was the result of locking the rear tire and swapping ends (the rear tries to come around to the front).

The only wrecks I've had were due to insufficient traction from sand and/or wet roads. I've done the predictable slide-out from that situation twice in about 500 10-mile descents.


It depends on the situation. Descending doesn't generally require steering. But when taking turns in a pancake-flat crit knowing how to steer through a turn can be very helpful. There is no right or wrong -- it's whatever the situation calls for.

[allegretto]

you know, it's funny.

i'm not talking motorcycles here but i mentioned them as another example of a straight two-wheeled vehicle. i've been working on getting my tri-bike co-ordination and last early Sunday AM i was tooling around a huge empty parking lot of a local super-mall and experimenting with;

a) a little opposite wiggle and then steering in, and

b) opposite all the way, just as i described above.

so all i'm going to say is that folks should try it both ways. i've ridden too many motorcycles at various speeds and now back to bicycles at various bicycle speeds.

before you say, "it's the same", i think you (and i mean anyone who is game and not sure what i am talking about when saying this) should try it themselves and decide what they think about the sensation and what they are doing very carefully.

and no, as long as you balance forces, you can steer away all through the turn and not fall down it's only a matter of balancing forces. maybe the equations tell some something else, but as a very experienced engineer once told me;

"in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice".

i really asked this question to see what technique experienced cyclists used or perhaps swapped in a given situation. if someone tells me, "it's all the same", then someone ought to get out there and do it before they say that, cuz it sure isn't, and at least some here have tried it and realize it is totally different in feel and balance. :beer:

[RPS]

Seems like a chicken and egg question to me. They both have to occur for it to work and you have a hard time doing one without the other.

The big thing here is for you to feel you are right - so I'll let this dead horse have the rest of the day off and say it. You are right.

dave
Thanks, I’ll remember that. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

The thing about insulting people that meant you no harm is that payback is a bitch.

My focus was 100 percent on the subject matter and 0 percent on me personally or being right. I honestly wish I cared more about what people think of me personally but I don’t. Maybe the fact that I felt the insult enough to respond is a good sign that I still care some about people and haven’t given up entirely. For that reminder I thank you.

[djg]

I haven't been on a motorcycle since my first kid was born, but I spent some years riding one (or a few) and, at least on my recollection, think that the model of pushing on the bars seems really misleading for what I or most folks do on a bicycle, and it's not because you discard countersteering.

At 20 or 25 or higher, on the road, it seems to me that it's a lot about picking a line and then about steering from the middle of the bike (with "middle" very broadly interpreted). Looking into the turn helps to turn the head, which helps to turn the shoulders, which helps to turn the trunk and the hips. If I'm not pedaling through the turn, I weight my outside pedal. I dunno from single-track, but I don't think about pushing or pulling on the bars unless I'm going very slowly -- or yanking things around in cross, which sometimes happens pretty slowly as well. At some point it should be pretty automatic -- you don't want to hit a corner in a pack at 28 talking yourself through the mechanics of turning the bike.

[flydhest]

Again it’s mostly semantics, but worth noting that leaning is not done in order to make a bike turn, but rather it’s done because it is necessary to maintain balance. Simply attaching a side car or an outrigger to a bicycle would eliminate having to lean at all even though it could still maneuver turns successfully.

What's important is that we are not talking about bicycles with sidecars or outriggers.

To say that leaning is not done in order to make the bike turn is wrong. There is no other reason to do it in the context being discussed. Your follow up point, that it is necessary to maintain balance is true, but not a contradiction to the first point. If you could not keep your balance, then you would not be turning, you would be falling. So leaning is done (along with other things) in order to make the bike turn.

Your discussion of the transient input seems right, but the point of that is to initiate the lean, which, as has been discussed, is necessary to keep balance, which, as discussed, is necessary to turn.

[Dave]

It depends on the situation. Descending doesn't generally require steering. But when taking turns in a pancake-flat crit knowing how to steer through a turn can be very helpful. There is no right or wrong -- it's whatever the situation calls for.


You didn't read my response very closely. The whole topic is about cornering. Descending around hairpin corners at 35+ requires steering. I was not referring in any way to descending down a straight road. Any idiot can do that. Have you never been down a real mountain road? They've got hairpins and S turns galore. Real mountian roads also have sand, rocks and potholes to avoid, so you can't just pick a line and be guaranteed that it will be a clean and clear one.

IMO, taking a 90 degree crit turn at high speed is a lot easier, particularly when you can use the full road width and not have to worry about oncoming traffic.

[RPS]

What's important is that we are not talking about bicycles with sidecars or outriggers.

To say that leaning is not done in order to make the bike turn is wrong.Maybe a bad example on my part; but you have to go back to the following comment to understand the context of my reply/statement.
I think the thing that is getting lost here is that once you are moving more than walking speed you turn not by steering but by leaning.
I took exception to this statement because I find it incorrect (nothing personal against Dave). I can negotiate some turns on my bike without leaning it. I can also go straight while leaning my bike a few degrees. On the other hand, how many bikes do you know that can negotiate a turn – or be ridden in a straight line for that matter -- with the headset locked in place so they can’t be steered?

[RPS]

Someone pointed out in a PM that my being factual comes across as being rude and belittling to others who I may perceive as not “getting it”, or maybe just have a different opinion. If that’s the case I’d like to apologize for that’s not my intent at all. My only intent is to educate and/or debate technical matters, but obviously that hasn’t worked.

I’d like to leave you with one factual (completely non-personal) point to consider – kind of “FOOD FOR THOUGHT”.

When a cyclist pulls about 0.6 Gs of lateral acceleration on a “typical” bike he/she is in the range of being able to scrape a pedal if riding on level pavement. I hope this puts the magnitude of lateral acceleration in some useful perspective for the following.

Since this lateral acceleration goes up by the bike’s velocity square, a turn that would make a rider scrape their pedal at 30 MPH will only require a bike to lean a small fraction of one degree (hard to even see) when traveling at 3 MPH (about normal walking speed). A 10-fold increase in speed results in a 100-fold increase in lateral acceleration.

I can see how it would be easy to conclude that cyclists “steer” at low speeds and “lean” at high speeds to negotiate a turn.

[rugbysecondrow]

The funny part is that I have no idea *** you are even arguing about now.

Mark Twain had a quote that I think applies here:

“I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead.”

You may be right, but in everything you wrote, I have no effin clue what you want to be right about.

[Dave]

Whoever said that you steer a bike by leaning seems to forget that the lean is initiated and maintained by countersteering. Whenever I'm in a hairpin turn, my thoughts are only of applying the correct amount of countersteering pressure to produce the desired turn radius. If I'm drifting out too wide, more pressure is required to lean the bike further and turn tighter. I'm not doing anything else with my body - no shifting my weight or leaning in a direction other than that of the bike. Those who rarely go around more than a 90 degree corner don't get this type of experience.

[allegretto]

Whoever said that you steer a bike by leaning seems to forget that the lean is initiated and maintained by countersteering. Whenever I'm in a hairpin turn, my thoughts are only of applying the correct amount of countersteering pressure to produce the desired turn radius. If I'm drifting out too wide, more pressure is required to lean the bike further and turn tighter. I'm not doing anything else with my body - no shifting my weight or leaning in a direction other that of the bike. Those who rarely go around more than a 90 degree corner don't get this type of experience.

totally agree, just lean with the bike. your mass is far too great and intentional weight shifts could upset it. a little more or less pressure in the bars when in a constant counter-position makes for large inputs of steering.

on a motorcycle at far greater speeds and mass of the bike, body lean can be used quite creatively.

[mosca]

Whoever said that you steer a bike by leaning seems to forget that the lean is initiated and maintained by countersteering..I think this is a good summation of the concept, although the effort needed to maintain the turn is dependent on the steering geometry of the bicycle/motorcycle. I've ridden some that require continued pressure while others seem to maintain an arc with little to no effort.

And I agree with those who say we countersteer intuitively, but from time to time I remind myself to do it consciously, and the awareness always seems to give me a little better control and a more relaxed body. Try it!

[Dave]

Certainly, the amount of steering trail affects the countersteering input required. When I owned a Colnago with a relatively slack HTA and more than average steering trail, it definitely required continuous countersteering input or it would straighten up quickly. That's not bad, but different than some other brands that have far less trail. I came to like frames with less trail, but I could use either. What I don't like is owning one bike with lots of trail and another with far less. I want all of my bikes to behave similarly.

The sport motorcycle that I owned (Suzuki SV650) steered hard and slow, even compared to my Colnago. Riding the same mountain routes on a motorcycle was an interesting experience, but not my cup of tea.

[djg21]

You didn't read my response very closely. The whole topic is about cornering. Descending around hairpin corners at 35+ requires steering. I was not referring in any way to descending down a straight road. Any idiot can do that. Have you never been down a real mountain road? They've got hairpins and S turns galore. Real mountian roads also have sand, rocks and potholes to avoid, so you can't just pick a line and be guaranteed that it will be a clean and clear one.

IMO, taking a 90 degree crit turn at high speed is a lot easier, particularly when you can use the full road width and not have to worry about oncoming traffic.

First: I have ridden and raced bicycles (and motorcycles) for far longer than six years.

Second: I actually lived in Colorado, where I rode and raced bicycles, for many years.

Third: We do have mountains in upstate NY (they are called the Adirondacks), as well as descents, and s-turns, and hairpins, and potholes, and sand.

Fourth: The tone of your reply is unecessary. If I said something that somehow offended you, or am misconstruing the tone of your message, I apologize. But your reply seems more than a little snotty to me, and if that was your intent, I have two words for you, and they are not Happy Birthday!

That being said, you need to read the entire thread closely (maybe again). The thread is about "steering" and not "cornering." To be clear, the term "steering" is not synonymous with the term "cornering," and I am (we are) not using the term simply to mean directing a bike through a corner or turn. You appear to be correct that any idiot can "corner" one way or another.

Rather, we are discussing two different "cornering" techniques that can be used to direct a bicycle through a turn or corner -- steering and countersteering. These techniques are different, and each has its uses. I'd try to explain, but it seems that you just need to find someone who can show you the difference on a bike. Countersteering is more intuitive, and may make more sense on fast descents. However, it is worth learning how to steer through high-speed turns too.

[choke]

I contend that one is forced to either steer or counter-steer depending on the speed involved. If you are going walking speed it is very difficult to counter-steer. Counter-steering is just a way to get the bike to lean over to carve a turn and if you are going very slowly and you try to lean deep into a turn you will fall to the inside as there isn't enough force to balance you. The same thing, but in the opposite direction, is true at speed. If you are going 30 mph and try to change direction without counter-steering you will either high-side and fall over to the outsdie or you will stop turning to save your skin. I feel we don't get much of a choice.

We can however exploit the turning method to the full to get the most out of the bike. This is especially true at higher speeds and on iffy surfaces. A good rider will steer at the lowest speeds, blend normal steering and counter-steering at middle speeds ad will counter-steer exclusively at high speeds.

dave

+2 You either have to steer or counter-steer depending upon the speed.

[dekindy]

If I understand turning correctly you have to countersteer in every turn whether you realize it or not. The moment that you are countersteering may be so brief that you do not realize it or perceive it but it is there. Everything else is just a matter of determining how much countersteering is needed. I think someone already referenced Sheldon Brown because he has summarized most bicycle concepts so well. He also has some information on turning and braking. Cadel Evans may have the break setup right after all if he is right handed.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cn-z.html#countersteering
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

Is it possible to set a bicycle up so that countersteering cannot be used? That would be a great way to learn exactly how essential countersteering is.

I was just looking through some of the replies and it seems like there are a lot of factors at play that determine how much speed and countersteering you use in a turn.

Speed
Angle of turn
Width of road
Visibility around the curve
Smoothness of road
Pedal clearance
Preference for pedaling through turns
Turn is uphill or downhill
Etc
Etc

I am not sure motorcycle comparisons are valid. The power to weight ratio of a motorcycle is awesome compared to a bicycle so you can do things with a motorcycle that you could not do with a bicycle. In our ABATE motorcycle safety class we were taught to approach a turn at a speed in which we could accelerate smoothly and continuously through the whole turn. Using this approach would dictate using lower speeds than the average rider might use and would require employing more countersteering than someone that did not follow this rule.

[Dave]

First: I have ridden and raced bicycles (and motorcycles) for far longer than six years.

Second: I actually lived in Colorado, where I rode and raced bicycles, for many years.

It depends on the situation. Descending doesn't generally require steering. But when taking turns in a pancake-flat crit knowing how to steer through a turn can be very helpful. There is no right or wrong -- it's whatever the situation calls for.



I've been riding bikes for 25 years, but only the last 6 in Colorado. I'm 56, years old, retired from mechanical engineering 6 years ago and I'm close to giving up the bike for other pursuits in the next couple of years.

I just didn't get the point of your response, to single out my comments about countsteering, only to add that steering isn't needed to descend. A crit corner requires the same type of steering input as a corner on a mountain descent.

To me, steering usually implies cornering and that's what was mentioned in the very first post in this thread.

[Acotts]

I am impressed that this is a 5 page thread. This has to rank as one of the most esoteric cycling related discussions I have ever witnesed.

Kudus to all of you.

The art of conversation is far from dead!

[ergott]

Concentrate on the product, not the method and you will corner better.

:beer:

[djg21]

I've been riding bikes for 25 years, but only the last 6 in Colorado. I'm 56, years old, retired from mechanical engineering 6 years ago and I'm close to giving up the bike for other pursuits in the next couple of years.

I just didn't get the point of your response, to single out my comments about countsteering, only to add that steering isn't needed to descend. A crit corner requires the same type of steering input as a corner on a mountain descent.

To me, steering usually implies cornering and that's what was mentioned in the very first post in this thread.


Thank you for your note. I appreciate it.

Regarding steering, you can use the technique to navigate relatively high-speed turns. It requires your body weight to be well inside the bike (towards the turn). You shift on the seat so that the seat is almost on your outside thigh; and you move your upper body inboard too. This allows you to keep the bike much more upright while you navigate the turn/corner, and thus to continuously pedal trough the turn/corner where, were you to countersteer, you would not be able to (You still need to focus your eyes on the exit of the turn).

In crit situations, this can allow you to avoid the accordion effect when the field deaccelerates and reaccelerates at every corner. By maintaining a more constant speed, you don't burn as many matches, and you can actually gain position in corners as others deaccelerate.

If corners are wet or sandy, steering is very effective. Because you are always pedaling and your rear tire is constantly engaged, should you start to wash out a little, your tire is more apt to propel you forward out of a skid.

I also tend to steer when time trialing on a course with corners. Steering allows me to maintain a more consistent speed and output through corners.

Steering also is useful on loose dirt or gravel roads where you cannot trust the road surface, and are fearful of leaning into a turn too much.

Again, it is just another technique, and IMO it is really worth practicing.

[choke]

Regarding steering, you can use the technique to navigate relatively high-speed turns. It requires your body weight to be well inside the bike (towards the turn). You shift on the seat so that the seat is almost on your outside thigh; and you move your upper body inboard too. This allows you to keep the bike much more upright while you navigate the turn/corner, and thus to continuously pedal trough the turn/corner where, were you to countersteer, you would not be able to (You still need to focus your eyes on the exit of the turn).

I get what you're saying and I agree with most of it. What you're describing is shifting your center of gravity so you don't have to lean the bike as much, similar to what a motorcycle road racer does. What I would disagree with is that regardless of whether you're "hanging off" or not you still have to counter-steer to initiate the turn above a certain speed....you can't turn the bars the same direction you want to turn and make it work.

[rwl]

There's a nice explanation of countersteering here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering). It's amazing how automatic and instinctive the behavior is on a bike. I used to drive rally and race cars, and the analogous technique to set up oversteer was very much more conscious there.

[Tobias]

Now back to Rick and the other engineers to convert all of this stuff into longitudinal vectors and the like! :cool:

-RayTo even try would be acting stupidly. :rolleyes:

[Tobias]

I've been riding bikes for 25 years, but only the last 6 in Colorado. I'm 56, years old, retired from mechanical engineering 6 years ago and I'm close to giving up the bike for other pursuits in the next couple of years.
Dave, this explains a lot. :beer: I suggest you consider that you (and a few others) have formal training that makes you see and analyze much of what is being written here in a completely different light. Relative to your training and years of work experience the average American is essentially technically illiterate in this field by comparison. We can discuss this for years and it won’t change the fact that a non-technical person (say one with a liberal arts degree as an example) isn’t going to relate to the description of what is being stated about the dynamics of a moving bicycle in the same way that you see it.

That’s not to say that they may not be a better cyclist or can corner better and faster. I suspect, however, that suggesting they don’t understand the physics or math behind steering or cornering is being interpreted by many here as a reflection on their cycling skills -- or lack thereof. Of course this shouldn’t be the case at all because riding a bike is a learned skilled – basically by trial-and-error and not learned in a text book.

Simply put a rider may have excellent skills and have absolutely no clue what makes riding, cornering, or steering possible at a technical level. These are two completely separate skill sets (the ability to ride and the ability to understand why we can ride). The reason they think it happens may be all wrong and no matter how much anyone repeats the obvious it will not register. Without the proper background it’s unfair to expect anyone to understand this very complex subject in correct technical terms. Fortunately they don’t have to because even the most technical of engineers don’t pull out a slide rule to calculate how much to turn the bars or lean a bike in mid-turn. Like everyone else they just do it.

I’ve followed this thread for a while and as I anticipated it has turned into a pissing contest between those who ride well and think they know why what they are doing works and those who may or may not ride well but actually understand riding mechanics correctly. And the two shall never agree; not that they need to.


P.S. -- Hope you can keep riding.

[allegretto]

I am not sure motorcycle comparisons are valid. The power to weight ratio of a motorcycle is awesome compared to a bicycle so you can do things with a motorcycle that you could not do with a bicycle. In our ABATE motorcycle safety class we were taught to approach a turn at a speed in which we could accelerate smoothly and continuously through the whole turn. Using this approach would dictate using lower speeds than the average rider might use and would require employing more countersteering than someone that did not follow this rule.


Dwight,

i can assure you that motorcycle comparisons are totally valid. sure P/W ratios are different, but principles are identical.

can't comment directly on the ABATE class (never took one), but the faster you're going, the more you have to countersteer since you have to lean deeper to negotiate the same radius turn. on a motorcycle at high speed you don't twitch it, you smoothly and quickly shove it down, sometimes very firmly. as Keith Code (a motorcycle racing guru) would say, "the quicker you get it down, the quicker you go". and he was dead on. watch motorcycle races and you will see those bikes lean far, but they also look like they are gonna fall down they rotate so fast, and the rider keeps pushing until he's past the apex at which point you just let the bars come back as fast as they want (and they really really want to come back) and the bike pops back up faster than a jack-in-the-box. as far as approach speed, i agree. you do all your braking in the straight line before you lean, you never brake once heeled over, you'll pop right back up and go very wide. you accelerate all the way.

P.S. just went to Sheldon Brown's site with your links. while i like some of his advice it is clear he fails to acknowledge or doesn't understand countersteering.

further his braking advice is likewise limited. if you brake with the front brake exclusively, you will stop the fastest way, but if you don't have the room you will quickly find that you're a goner because if your front tire is busy doing that much braking there is nothing left to steer with, you will only go straight.

[allegretto]

There's a nice explanation of countersteering here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering). It's amazing how automatic and instinctive the behavior is on a bike. I used to drive rally and race cars, and the analogous technique to set up oversteer was very much more conscious there.

in a racecar however one uses the throttle or brakes to create the yaw and then steers into it, balancing the throttle and steering input. no such analogous forces exist on a bike or motorcycle, at least not intentionally... :D

[allegretto]

Concentrate on the product, not the method and you will corner better.

:beer:

could not disagree more. with bike, motorcycle or car. if you don't know exactly what you want to do, you can be certain that's what you will get (you don't know, or inconsistency).

technique makes a huge difference.

don't want to argue though, so :beer:

[ergott]

could not disagree more. with bike, motorcycle or car. if you don't know exactly what you want to do, you can be certain that's what you will get.

technique makes a huge difference.

don't want to argue though, so :beer:

Honestly, I think there is more of a semantic argument here than anything else. I'm sure you, DK and many others who post here know what you are doing, but are explaining it in different ways. Even if we are all speaking the same language there is plenty of room for interpretation.

That's what practice is for. Look up the teachings of Arnold Jacobs (master musician and teacher). He was constantly reminding the best musicians of this. He summed it up like this in one audio clip I have from a clinic.

"The reason I say this is I've found the human body always works on products, not methods. If I want to move this chair over, I'm tired of standing, and I'll just bring it over, and I'll sit down. This is a product. In other words, I'm moving the chair from over there to here, I'll sit myself down, I'm very comfortable. This is very nice. It's not as practical as standing however. (stands up) These are products. No matter what I do, I'm always going for what I'm trying to accomplish, not how I'm trying to accomplish it."

"Therefore, always focus on the product, not the process"

I have found that his teachings can be applied to almost everything

If you practice cornering for a while, you learn to pick your line and just how much input is needed to corner at given speed and radius. Repetition is key and you build up speed and confidence. It's not hard to find a corner that you can repeat cornering practice. Experiment a little each time and see what works better. It's not rocket science.

I tell people to get out there and ride and figure it out for themselves. It's just as important to experience what doesn't work and you only get this by repetition and experimentation.

I haven't a clue what I do in a turn, but the guys I ride with agree that I'm a little nuts and push the limits of the tires all the time.

:beer:

http://www.juliashornpage.com/MasterClasses/ArnoldJacobs/tabid/65/Default.aspx

http://www.windsongpress.com/jacobs/scarlett.htm

http://canbrass.com/features/jacobs.html

[allegretto]

Honestly, I think there is more of a semantic argument here than anything else. I'm sure you, DK and many others who post here know what you are doing, but are explaining it in different ways. Even if we are all speaking the same language there is plenty of room for interpretation.

That's what practice is for. Look up the teachings of Arnold Jacobs (master musician and teacher). He was constantly reminding the best musicians of this. He summed it up like this in one audio clip I have from a clinic.

"The reason I say this is I've found the human body always works on products, not methods. If I want to move this chair over, I'm tired of standing, and I'll just bring it over, and I'll sit down. This is a product. In other words, I'm moving the chair from over there to here, I'll sit myself down, I'm very comfortable. This is very nice. It's not as practical as standing however. (stands up) These are products. No matter what I do, I'm always going for what I'm trying to accomplish, not how I'm trying to accomplish it."

"Therefore, always focus on the product, not the process"

I have found that his teachings can be applied to almost everything

If you practice cornering for a while, you learn to pick your line and just how much input is needed to corner at given speed and radius. Repetition is key and you build up speed and confidence. It's not hard to find a corner that you can repeat cornering practice. Experiment a little each time and see what works better. It's not rocket science.

I tell people to get out there and ride and figure it out for themselves. It's just as important to experience what doesn't work and you only get this by repetition and experimentation.

I haven't a clue what I do in a turn, but the guys I ride with agree that I'm a little nuts and push the limits of the tires all the time.

:beer:

http://www.juliashornpage.com/MasterClasses/ArnoldJacobs/tabid/65/Default.aspx

http://www.windsongpress.com/jacobs/scarlett.htm

http://canbrass.com/features/jacobs.html

yes, i see... and agree! ;)

[Tobias]

P.S. just went to Sheldon Brown's site with your links. while i like some of his advice it is clear he fails to acknowledge or doesn't understand countersteering. Please enlighten us by pointing out which part of the late Sheldon Brown’s explanation is incorrect. I only ask that you be specific and as concise as possible in supporting your view of where he is wrong.

I’m sure you disagree with his position that the entire “countersteering” argument is making a lot out of nothing – particularly by motorcyclists -- but aside from that statement which I highlighted I’d like to know specifically where he is wrong.

Countersteering

When a bicycle turns, it must lean into the direction of the turn so that the tilt of the bicycle and rider counterbalances the "centrifugal force" created by the act of turning.

In order to turn left, you start by turning the handlebars to the right for a moment. This moves the front wheel out to the right of the center of gravity, so the bike will start to fall to the left. This is immediately follwed by turning the handlebars to the left to cause the bike to remain in balance, which also creates the desired left turn. "Countersteering" refers to the momentary motion of the handlebars in the opposite direction of the desired turn.

Some people, particularly motorcyclists, make a big deal out of this as if countersteering is some special advanced riding technique that you must learn to become an expert bike handler. It isn't. It's just a fancy sounding name for the normal process by which any two-wheeler (or even a unicycle) is controlled.

[allegretto]

he refers to the turning of the bars R as a momentary event followed by turning the bars back to the L.

i agree that one can steer this way and get around a corner, but not very quickly :no:

now go back to post #22 (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=694455&postcount=22). someone else erroneously referred to this post as the rider trying to prevent the rear wheel from coming around to his right, i.e., to avoid a skid. that was not a correct interpretation. if you would see this rider .5sec later his L knee would be on or near the ground and he would be executing a sharp and fast L turn and the front wheel would be just as far turned to the right, or likely moreso! post apex of the turn the rider would let the bars come back toward center, by themselves, and the bike would pop back up and go straight.

that's what i call countersteering. it works on a bicycle too, just the speeds and lean angles are less. nonetheless, it is a far faster and more efficient way to corner quickly. :D

Brown seems to be unaware of the technique.

try it, i guarantee you'll like it!

[choke]

he refers to the turning of the bars R as a momentary event followed by turning the bars back to the L.

i agree that one can steer this way and get around a corner, but not very quickly
Not only can you....it's the only way you do.

now go back to post #22 (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=694455&postcount=22). someone else erroneously referred to this post as the rider trying to prevent the rear wheel from coming around to his right, i.e., to avoid a skid. that was not a correct interpretation.
I disagree. The back wheel has lost traction and it's trying to come around. I ride a motorcycle and if I was ever in that position on the road the pucker factor would be high. :)

if you would see this rider .5sec later his L knee would be on or near the ground and he would be executing a sharp and fast L turn and the front wheel would be just as far turned to the right, or likely moreso!
So why don't any of these guys have the same kind of extreme bar angle?

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n5/fzr400/wsbk/m1.jpg

[allegretto]

Not only can you....it's the only way you do.


I disagree. The back wheel has lost traction and it's trying to come around. I ride a motorcycle and if I was ever in that position on the road the pucker factor would be high. :)


So why don't any of these guys have the same kind of extreme bar angle?

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n5/fzr400/wsbk/m1.jpg

um...

check out the first two, especially the leader. if he was turning into the turn you wouldn't see the treads of his tire. the last three are exiting and have not set up for the L yet. further, the amount of countersteer is proportional to the desired turn, i can't see what that next turn is about.

i raced motorcycles. i rode in packs, we all did this. it is not an illusion or a misunderstanding. you cannot get the proper lean angles without it. just stop arguing and go out and do it, first say, over 15 MPH. you will amaze yourself. keep constant pressure and angle away from the turn. don't turn too hard or too fast, just keep increasing the pressure until you achieve the desired effect.

this is like i just come back from a trip to India. the first person i meet says;

"where did you go"

i say,

"India"

he says,

"i've never been there, so i don't think it exists"

so i just shrug my shoulders and walk away... OK? :beer:

[choke]

so i just shrug my shoulders and walk away... OK? :beer:

I think that's a good idea. I'm not sure if I'm not understanding you, you're not understanding me or we're both lost. :D

[allegretto]

I think that's a good idea. I'm not sure if I'm not understanding you, you're not understanding me or we're both lost. :D

no, i'm not being condescending or dismissive. sorry if i come off that way. it's just that it is clear that you have not tried it.

there is nothing to not understand. i understand you completely.

i want to invite you, and those who cannot envision this to have an epiphany this weekend;

go to a large open space at first, say a large mall parking lot, or a Wal-Mart. and just experiment with doing exactly what i say;

turn away from the center of the turn (i.e. push bars L to turn R) all through the turn, gently and evenly. stay with the bike, lean with it, don't do anything unnatural. do it first a medium speeds. i'm quite sure i could do it as low as 10 MPH or less, but the inputs at that speed have to be very judicious.

you will come home with a grin a yard wide! ;)

it will be like the first time you made a skiing turn with your skis parallel and tight together after using cross skis at first. it really is much faster and requires almost no effort! :beer:

[Dave]

Allegretto's description is exactly the way I experience high speed turning (bike or motorcycle). In contrast, some people contend that countersteering is only used briefly and once the bike leans over, additional countersteering is not required. That has never been my experience. If you quit countersteering the bike will right itself quickly.

Although I've got some fairly recent motorcycle experience, I've never had any motorcycle racing training (just a street riding course) and wasn't about to try extreme cornering on one of my regular mountain routes since there is always some sand in the corners and one mistake could send you off the edge of a cliff. FWIW, I rode a sport bike for one year and sold it. I just wasn't feeling the love.

My question is about the rider's leaning to th einside and putting a knee down. What's the alleged benefit? When is it a must? I've watched amateur videos where riders are doing this when their bike isn't even leaned over very far. They think they're really laying the bike over, but it's nothing like the angles seen in a real race.

[allegretto]

Allegretto's description is exactly the way I experience high speed turning (bike or motorcycle). In contrast, some people contend that countersteering is only used briefly and once the bike leans over, additional countersteering is not required. That has never been my experience. If you quit countersteering the bike will right itself quickly.

Although I've got some fairly recent motorcycle experience, I've never had any motorcycle racing training (just a street riding course) and wasn't about to try extreme cornering on one of my regular mountain routes since there is always some sand in the corners and one mistake could send you off the edge of a cliff. FWIW, I rode a sport bike for one year and sold it. I just wasn't feeling the love.

My question is about the rider's leaning to th einside and putting a knee down. What's the alleged benefit? When is it a must? I've watched amateur videos where riders are doing this when their bike isn't even leaned over very far. They think they're really laying the bike over, but it's nothing like the angles seen in a real race.

yes you see amateurs trying to emulate the racers al the time. they don't understand. many are not even countersteering, just trying to get down to look cool.

the truth is, at those sppeds, with someone who knows what they are doing, they are trying to get their knee out of the way, while simultaneously hanging to the inside to get every bit of lean they can. the more lean, the faster you can turn. if you drag your knee too hard it's like dragging hardware and you'll upset your contact patches...you know what happens next, right?

even an off-the-shelf Honda can lean at angles that have most riders scratching their heads. :D

[Flat Out]

How do you guys all walk? I'm not sure I'm doing it correctly. I think we need a 5 page thread about it.

[choke]

no, i'm not being condescending or dismissive. sorry if i come off that way. it's just that it is clear that you have not tried it.
I didn't take it that way and didn't mean to imply I did. I think we both agree but just aren't expressing ourselves well enough that we're understanding each other. I think I understand counter steering pretty well, I consciously do it all the time. I ride a motorcycle (sportbike) and live for the curves. I still disagree with your assessment of the rider in post #22 though....he's lost rear wheel traction. :D

My question is about the rider's leaning to th einside and putting a knee down. What's the alleged benefit? When is it a must? I've watched amateur videos where riders are doing this when their bike isn't even leaned over very far. They think they're really laying the bike over, but it's nothing like the angles seen in a real race.
The reason the pros do it is to move the center of gravity lower and to the inside. If the CG is lower the bike doesn't have to be leaned over as much to take a corner at the same speed. At the speeds they take the curves if they didn't "hang off" they'd run out of tire.

Since I may not be explaining that clearly I'll quote Sportrider (http://www.sportrider.com/ride/146_0611_jamie_hacking/index.html) : The advantages of Hacking's radically hung-off upper body are indisputable laws of physics. The farther the rider's weight is offset to the inside of the bike, the farther the center of gravity of the combined rider/bike package is shifted inward, allowing the bike to carry less lean angle for a given corner speed or more corner speed at a given lean angle.
As for the amateurs doing it, Allegretto hit the nail on the head....to look like the pros.

[Tobias]

this is like i just come back from a trip to India. the first person i meet says;

"where did you go"

i say,

"India"

he says,

"i've never been there, so i don't think it exists"

so i just shrug my shoulders and walk away... OK? :beer:And if I told you I had just arrived from Mars on the space shuttle, you’d know that Mars really does exist but that I was full of $h1t anyway, right?

No one here is saying that countersteering doesn’t exist, but rather that we have all been countersteering since the very first day we learned to balance a bike on our own because it is an integral part of riding. If someone wants to believe that there is something magical, mysterious, and unexplained about countersteering as if it were some form of cycling religion then I won’t even try to convince them otherwise. If they feel happy and secure in their beliefs then more power to them.

However, to suggest that we should go to an empty parking lot and try your recommendation is not only foolish but irresponsible. The most obvious flaw with your entire argument is that you don’t explain or account for when (and for that matter why and how) does countersteering go from initiating/generating lean to opposing further lean. It’s nice to say you start by turning left to go right, and then follow it up with “you continue to turn left to go right even faster” without one shred of evidence (other than trust me because I race motorcycles) that the initial lean created will magically stop on it’s own before leading the rider to the pavement.

Maybe you think it’s funny to convince some unsuspecting idiot to go out to a mall parking lot and trash himself and his bike, but most intelligent people won’t be so easily fooled. Your argument that we should try it first sounds like a junior-high dare. I for one won’t jump off the empire state building because you assure me you’ve done it and it won’t hurt. :rolleyes:

[ergott]

It wouldn't be hard to rig a moto or bicycle with something that records steering inputs. I'd really love to see a bicycle in the middle of hard cornering (not setting up a turn) with the steering input showing the bars turned the other way (regardless of the degree).

[allegretto]

And if I told you I had just arrived from Mars on the space shuttle, you’d know that Mars really does exist but that I was full of $h1t anyway, right?

No one here is saying that countersteering doesn’t exist, but rather that we have all been countersteering since the very first day we learned to balance a bike on our own because it is an integral part of riding. If someone wants to believe that there is something magical, mysterious, and unexplained about countersteering as if it were some form of cycling religion then I won’t even try to convince them otherwise. If they feel happy and secure in their beliefs then more power to them.

However, to suggest that we should go to an empty parking lot and try your recommendation is not only foolish but irresponsible. The most obvious flaw with your entire argument is that you don’t explain or account for when (and for that matter why and how) does countersteering go from initiating/generating lean to opposing further lean. It’s nice to say you start by turning left to go right, and then follow it up with “you continue to turn left to go right even faster” without one shred of evidence (other than trust me because I race motorcycles) that the initial lean created will magically stop on it’s own before leading the rider to the pavement.

Maybe you think it’s funny to convince some unsuspecting idiot to go out to a mall parking lot and trash himself and his bike, but most intelligent people won’t be so easily fooled. Your argument that we should try it first sounds like a junior-high dare. I for one won’t jump off the empire state building because you assure me you’ve done it and it won’t hurt. :rolleyes:


...but, um, you and the others haven't tried it, right?

i really don't believe, in all my life, that i have met a crowd such as this. i am not being irresponsible, i am attempting to get you to a higher level of understanding. i know that might sound arrogant, and i apologize in advance if it does.

you really should try it on your next ride, or at least someone should, and come back and tell the others who believe as you do what happened.

further i will sayeth not. i can do no more...

oh, and the picture in post #22? i've been there and done that, literally thousands of times, have you? there is no pucker there, the rider is in total control.

do you argue with stop signs too?

[allegretto]

It wouldn't be hard to rig a moto or bicycle with something that records steering inputs. I'd really love to see a bicycle in the middle of hard cornering (not setting up a turn) with the steering input showing the bars turned the other way (regardless of the degree).

why don't you just try it and tell us what happened?

[Acotts]

It wouldn't be hard to rig a moto or bicycle with something that records steering inputs. I'd really love to see a bicycle in the middle of hard cornering (not setting up a turn) with the steering input showing the bars turned the other way (regardless of the degree).


I bet DK did that with Serotta like 20 years ago. After seeing videos of DK's Serotta industrial sex machine...im pretty sure no stones were left unturned in the 90s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E-P8P2-7Ro&feature=related

[Edit: link SFW.]

[fierte_poser]

I ride a motorcycle (sportbike) and live for the curves. I still disagree with your assessment of the rider in post #22 though....he's lost rear wheel traction. :D

+1. That is not countersteering to initiate a turn. That is dialing in opposite lock while on the gas to keep the rear tire from coming around. Look at the ashpalt in the background and the tire marks on the pavement in the background. That is not the entry point for that corner. Its post-apex corner exit.

Second, count me in with the other members of planet earth who believe that you will quickly end up on your ass if you continue to push on the bars after turning-in on a bicycle. Once you initiate the turn and achieve the desired lean angle/line, that's it. No more pushy-push on the bars. Set it and forget it.

[allegretto]

+1. That is not countersteering to initiate a turn. That is dialing in opposite lock while on the gas to keep the rear tire from coming around. Look at the ashpalt in the background and the tire marks on the pavement in the background. That is not the entry point for that corner. Its post-apex corner exit.


my God you're correct. there is no such thing as double apex or linked turns. how could i be so wrong... only on Mars do such things exist.

[David Kirk]

I bet DK did that with Serotta like 20 years ago. After seeing videos of DK's Serotta industrial sex machine...im pretty sure no stones were left unturned in the 90s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E-P8P2-7Ro&feature=related

[Edit: link SFW.]

I did not do that but it would be fun.

The steering angle needed to get anything to happen at medium to high speeds is hugely small. Back then I sketched up a devise that would leave a tell tale of steering angle but the problem is that you would have greater inputs during the set up for the test corner than you would the corner itself and it would be very difficult to reset it on the fly.

Now days with the very small video cameras that are available I'd hook up an indicator needle off the back of the stem that would sweep over a plate on the top tube that would have gradations on it and set up the camera so it would show the two. You could then paint a line on the road where the test corner would start and ride over it so it would show in the background of the angle indicator.

It's fun or sad (depending on your point of view) how much time I spend thinking of crap like this.

My friend carl Strong has one of these cameras - I just might have to set this up.



dave


P.S. you should have seen some of the stuff I set that machine up to do. That was fun and scary at times. I broke a lot of **** in that thing.

[Tobias]

my God you're correct. there is no such thing as double apex or linked turns. how could i be so wrong... only on Mars do such things exist.
A picture is of an instant in time. How do we know that the picture doesn't represent the moment he countersteered right to lean the bike towards his left? I'm not that good reading pictures across time.

I will give you that based on the amount of the motorcycle's lean it is unlikely his back wheel has lost traction unless he is giving it full throttle coming out of the turn (which I can't be sure of based on a picture). Either way that picture doesn't prove a single thing about momentary versus continous countersteering -- here on earth or mars. ;)

We need video not pictures.

[ergott]

why don't you just try it and tell us what happened?


The problem is I'm too busy turning to be looking at my stem angle. You look where you want to the bike to go.

Not saying you are wrong, just that there's nothing better than empirical evidence. Setting up a small cam pointing at the stem or similar would erase the need for this 7 page thread.

:beer:

[allegretto]

The problem is I'm too busy turning to be looking at my stem angle. You look where you want to the bike to go.

Not saying you are wrong, just that there's nothing better than empirical evidence. Setting up a small cam pointing at the stem or similar would erase the need for this 7 page thread.

:beer:

no need to look, just feel will tell you

i feel like Obiwan telling Luke to close the visor of his helmet and "feel the Force" when he first uses the light saber.

guys, i'm not kidding, no one who knows me in real life thinks i'm the least bit crazy (well, maybe my wife... :D ) and mean no harm or insult. ya just gotta do it... or not i guess. it is initially counter-intuitive, i know. but trust your balance and the feedback...you will smile!

[ergott]

no need to look, just feel will tell you

i feel like Obiwan telling Luke to close the visor of his helmet and "feel the Force" when he first uses the light saber.

guys, i'm not kidding, no one who knows me in real life thinks i'm the least bit crazy (well, maybe my wife... :D ) and mean no harm or insult. ya just gotta do it... or not i guess. it is initially counter-intuitive, i know. but trust your balance and the feedback...you will smile!


So how do you know that your bars are actually pointed the opposite direction of the turn without looking? Perhaps you are just "feeling" a smaller steering input than you would think you need for a given turning speed and you think that is opposite.

Just playing devil's advocate here.

PS racing tonight, no real corners though.

[mosca]

To countersteer, in this context, means nothing more than to briefly turn the bars in the opposite direction of the intended turn in order to initiate a lean in the direction of the turn. That's countersteering in its entirety.

I'm of the belief that we all do it, and that it may well be impossible to turn without countersteering. The principle is the same for bikes or motorcycles, but the steering effort is so low on a bicycle that most people don't even realize it's happening.

And for your viewing pleasure, a photo I snapped in London a few years ago. This huckster had a bicycle set up with a gearbox on the stem that caused the wheel to turn in the opposite direction of the handlebars. i think he was offering a cash prize for anyone who could ride it a distance of about 20 feet. I didn't see anyone succeed, and no, I didn't try it myself. I do think it would be fun to play with it for an hour or so just to see if you could re-program your brain enough to actually ride it.

[allegretto]

However, to suggest that we should go to an empty parking lot and try your recommendation is not only foolish but irresponsible. The most obvious flaw with your entire argument is that you don’t explain or account for when (and for that matter why and how) does countersteering go from initiating/generating lean to opposing further lean. It’s nice to say you start by turning left to go right, and then follow it up with “you continue to turn left to go right even faster” without one shred of evidence (other than trust me because I race motorcycles) that the initial lean created will magically stop on it’s own before leading the rider to the pavement.

Maybe you think it’s funny to convince some unsuspecting idiot to go out to a mall parking lot and trash himself and his bike, but most intelligent people won’t be so easily fooled. Your argument that we should try it first sounds like a junior-high dare. I for one won’t jump off the empire state building because you assure me you’ve done it and it won’t hurt. :rolleyes:

be careful with the print in bold. you're now incorrectly paraphrasing my point. one must steer "away" the proper amount that achieves the desired effect. generally forces build up as you go faster or decrease the radius of your turn, and you must oppose those forces.

to be clear, i'm not saying "just keep increasing the angle". i'm saying turn away and let your natural inclinations balance the force. but you never find the front end pointed "in" if you are doing this correctly. sometimes, depending on your speed, the road and your comfort level/conditions you will turn the bars more, sometimes you'll just hold against increasing forces. once you try it, you will quickly see what i mean.

i don't suppose anyone here is an "unsuspecting idiot" and i hope you don't either. there are many things in the world that neither of us is aware of however. :beer:

[Dave]

Some of you guys are not only stubborn, you don't seem to comprehend what has been stated about countersteering.

It is NOT a brief or momentary turn of the bars in the opposite direction of the turn, just to initiate the lean that allows the bike to turn. Some amount of continuous countersteering is required in a high speed turn or the bike will quit leaning and quit turning.

One of my proofs of this was doing a number of high speed right hand turns, using only my right hand, with the hand open so I could only push on the bars to countersteer. I had no problem doing this at all. I just pushed to turn, pushed more if the turn was not tight enough and quit pushing to straighten the bike up.

A motorcycle will behave in the same manner, but it requires a lot more effort to push the bars. This makes it quite obvious what's going on. With a bicycle, the force required is quite small. Not many people get the opportunity to negotiate a 180 degree turn at 35+, but riding in the mountains, it's not unusual at all, unless you're riding the brakes and too scared to pick up speed. In this type of turn the force required is greater and the turn lasts long enough to impress upon the rider the necessity of constant countersteering.

I'd highly recommend a motorcycle training course, even for those who never intend to ride. It is enlightening and well worth the money. Of course, riding a motorcycle through the mountains will provide a lot more proof with regard to what is required to steer a bike or motorcycle through many sharp turns. Most training courses are held in large parking lots where speed is quite restricted, but still fast enough to get the idea of countersteering.

[allegretto]

So how do you know that your bars are actually pointed the opposite direction of the turn without looking? Perhaps you are just "feeling" a smaller steering input than you would think you need for a given turning speed and you think that is opposite.

Just playing devil's advocate here.

PS racing tonight, no real corners though.

here's an experiment that you can do;

take your body to any position you desire... stand on your head if you like, and close your eyes.

move your arms and hands to any position. is there any position that you can put your arms into that you don't know where they are? that is, when you open your eyes, are they somewhere you didn't expect?

unless you have real problems the answer is invariably, no! that's because we all have little sensors in our muscles, joints and tendos called proprioceptors. these little sensors supply feedback to our CNS and tell us where the limbs are regardless of position. have to admit i don't know if one has to relearn in a weightless environment, but i would guess not since they respond to stretch more than gravity.

you know where your hands are, and what forces are acting upon them at all times in the healthy state.

[mosca]

Some of you guys are not only stubborn, you don't seem to comprehend what has been stated about countersteering.

It is NOT a brief or momentary turn of the bars in the opposite direction of the turn, just to initiate the lean that allows the bike to turn. Some amount of continuous countersteering is required in a high speed turn or the bike will quit leaning and quit turning.

One of my proofs of this was doing a number of high speed right hand turns, using only my right hand, with the hand open so I could only push on the bars to countersteer. I had no problem doing this at all. I just pushed to turn, pushed more if the turn was not tight enough and quit pushing to straighten the bike up.

A motorcycle will behave in the same manner, but it requires a lot more effort to push the bars. This makes it quite obvious what's going on. With a bicycle, the force required is quite small. Not many people get the opportunity to negotiate a 180 degree turn at 35+, but riding in the mountains, it's not unusual at all, unless you're riding the brakes and too scared to pick up speed. In this type of turn the force required is greater and the turn lasts long enough to impress upon the rider the necessity of constant countersteering.

I'd highly recommend a motorcycle training course, even for those who never intend to ride. It is enlightening and well worth the money. Of course, riding a motorcycle through the mountains will provide a lot more proof with regard to what is required to steer a bike or motorcycle through many sharp turns. Most training courses are held in large parking lots where speed is quite restricted, but still fast enough to get the idea of countersteering.I agree with your point about the continued need for pressure on the handlebars to control the arc of the turn, however would hesitate to call it countersteering since at that point you are indeed steering into the turn, the pressure is only necessary to keep the bike from standing up.

At any rate, I think we are only having a semantic disagreement at this point, and if I'm wrong about the dictionary definition then mea culpa.

Love, mosca

[allegretto]

I agree with your point about the continued need for pressure on the handlebars to control the arc of the turn, however would hesitate to call it countersteering since at that point you are indeed steering into the turn, the pressure is only necessary to keep the bike from standing up.

At any rate, I think we are only having a semantic disagreement at this point, and if I'm wrong about the dictionary definition then mea culpa.

Love, mosca

no, he is steering away from the turn. as he says he is pushing with his R hand in a R turn, the bars are L

this is not semantics...

:)

[mosca]

no, he is steering away from the turn. as he says he is pushing with his R hand in a R turn, the bars are L

this is not semantics...

:)During a right turn, his front wheel is turned to the right, he is only applying pressure with his right hand because the front wheel will tend to flop further to the right on most bikes without some correction by the rider.

At any rate, I decided to consult the experts at Wikipedia and found the article surprisingly lucid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

[Dave]

During a right turn, his front wheel is turned to the right, he is only applying pressure with his right hand because the front wheel will tend to flop further to the right on most bikes without some correction by the rider.

At any rate, I decided to consult the experts at Wikipedia and found the article surprisingly lucid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

The key issue is that that constant countersteering is still required. The idea that a bike will lean into a turn and keep turning with no further input is definitely false. It could well be that the tire is eventually angled into the turn, but if this is the case, it's only the result of a reduction in countersteering force - not any intentional input to turn the wheel in the opposite direction. I've got better things to do in a high speed turn than stare at my tire to see exactly how it's angled. You want to look ahead at where you want to be (another thing learned in motorcycle training).

There is never any need to consciously turn the wheel in the direction of the turn, just the need to maintain the amount of countersteering pressure that is required to get the desired turn radius. That's why an open right hand is all that's needed to complete a high speed right turn. IMO, the best thing you can learn is to do all the work with the proper hand - right hand for right turns, left for left.

[mosca]

The key issue is that that constant countersteering is still required.I fear that this definition of countersteering is leading people to believe that, during the turn, the wheel is somehow angled in the opposite direction.

The idea that a bike will lean into a turn and keep turning with no further input is definitely false.When you use the word input here, can we agree that you are referring to pressure on the handlebars rather than any specific change in the steering angle?

I've got better things to do in a high speed turn than stare at my tire to see exactly how it's angled.You don't need to look at your tire to know this. You can figure it out by pushing your bike around and seeing where the bike goes when you turn the bars. Some things are as obvious as they seem.

IMO, the best thing you can learn is to do all the work with the proper hand - right hand for right turns, left for left.Agree 100%.

TGIF??? :beer:

[fierte_poser]

The key issue is that that constant countersteering is still required. The idea that a bike will lean into a turn and keep turning with no further input is definitely false.

Why is further input required?

I conjecture that for a given turn radius, bike geometry, and rider+bike mass there is a 'perfect' lean angle, center of gravity, and speed, whereby, once the 'perfect' lean angle is achieved, no further steering input (in _either_ direction) is required to maintain the line.

The 'perfect' lean angle would be achieved via a [momentary] countersteering input. Once achieved, the front wheel/handlebars would go back to 0* (aligned again with the rear tire).

You would disagree with my conjecture?

[allegretto]

During a right turn, his front wheel is turned to the right, he is only applying pressure with his right hand because the front wheel will tend to flop further to the right on most bikes without some correction by the rider.

At any rate, I decided to consult the experts at Wikipedia and found the article surprisingly lucid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

sorry, wikipedia is a crap shoot, not an authority. lots of pseudo-info there.

instead of just saying repeatedly that the Earth is flat and everyone knows it, why don't you just go out in an open space and gently apply the force we are talking about and see what happens? just a little force and don't turn the bars back in. after all, there is no coupling, if you turn away and don't turn back in, the wheel must stay out. start gradually and work your way through. in your field of vision it should be easy to see both the road and your front wheel. make sure you have room in both directions and just do it. prove to yourself i'm "wrong"... or not ;)

anyone here can do it. prove to yourself i'm wrong

[allegretto]

Why is further input required?

I conjecture that for a given turn radius, bike geometry, and rider+bike mass there is a 'perfect' lean angle, center of gravity, and speed, whereby, once the 'perfect' lean angle is achieved, no further steering input (in _either_ direction) is required to maintain the line.

The 'perfect' lean angle would be achieved via a [momentary] countersteering input. Once achieved, the front wheel/handlebars would go back to 0* (aligned again with the rear tire).

You would disagree with my conjecture?

no further steering angle is required in some cases if all is "perfect" as you say, but just as in the more common way of turning, the bike is pushing back (remember Newton's Laws?) and you must hold the position which is applying a force as the bike encounters change in the forces. as Dave notes, if you let it snap back to center or push back to center, the bike will stand back up and go straight.

here, just go out and prove to yourself i'm wrong. it should be easy, no?

if you gently push away, what do you think will happen? do you believe that the bike will just fall over if the slightest force is applied?

just show yourself i'm wrong...

[Flat Out]

This thing that you're talking about. It's not countersteering.

Sheldon's right.

RIP

[mosca]

sorry, wikipedia is a crap shoot, not an authority. lots of pseudo-info there.

instead of just saying repeatedly that the Earth is flat and everyone knows it, why don't you just go out in an open space and gently apply the force we are talking about and see what happens? just a little force and don't turn the bars back in. after all, there is no coupling, if you turn away and don't turn back in, the wheel must stay out. start gradually and work your way through. in your field of vision it should be easy to see both the road and your front wheel. make sure you have room in both directions and just do it. prove to yourself i'm "wrong"... or not ;)

anyone here can do it. prove to yourself i'm wrongSay what you will about Wikipedia, this particular article made perfect sense to me. Your post, on the other hand... I have no idea what you'd like me to prove or disprove at this point. Perhaps you could restate your thesis for the review board. ;)

Going back to your OP, I think you're mistaken to believe that you choose between steering and countersteering. Countersteering is an integral part of steering a bicycle/motorcycle, the only choice being whether you do it deliberately or not. If you believe the two are distinct and/or can be separated, please explain how.

[David Kirk]

So I just did something crazy and went out and rode a bike to see what it does.

I took a piece of tubing and taped it to the stem of my BMX bike pointed backward so it was parallel to the top tube and pointed straight back when the front wheel was pointed forward. I then went out and rode it around to see what would happen if I did different stuff. Here are my not so scientific findings -

* Indeed to start a turn the bars turn the front wheel away from the desired direction and the bike falls into the turn and once the turn is started the front wheel gets turned the other way in the desired direction. The countersteer part of the turn takes place very quickly but it's obvious once you have a tube pointed backward as an indicator. It's nothing but a quick flick and would be easy to miss without something to exaggerate it.

* I could not continue to steer in the "wrong" direction once the turn was started. If I held it I'd fall over. I suspect the only way to have steering angle in one direction while turning in the other is if the rear wheel is sliding either skidding under braking or under power like with a motorbike.

* It's hard to ride around with a tube taped to your stem. It's hits your legs and you will feel goofy and your wife will laugh at you.

There, solved!


dave

[allegretto]

So I just did something crazy and went out and rode a bike to see what it does.

I took a piece of tubing and taped it to the stem of my BMX bike pointed backward so it was parallel to the top tube and pointed straight back when the front wheel was pointed forward. I then went out and rode it around to see what would happen if I did different stuff. Here are my not so scientific findings -

* Indeed to start a turn the bars turn the front wheel away from the desired direction and the bike falls into the turn and once the turn is started the front wheel gets turned the other way in the desired direction. The countersteer part of the turn takes place very quickly but it's obvious once you have a tube pointed backward as an indicator. It's nothing but a quick flick and would be easy to miss without something to exaggerate it.

* I could not continue to steer in the "wrong" direction once the turn was started. If I held it I'd fall over. I suspect the only way to have steering angle in one direction while turning in the other is if the rear wheel is sliding either skidding under braking or under power like with a motorbike.

* It's hard to ride around with a tube taped to your stem. It's hits your legs and you will feel goofy and your wife will laugh at you.

There, solved!


dave

not quite Dave, i was waiting for someone to try this...

now tell me, if you push the bar away to initiate the turn, and "turn back into the turn", tell us how far you had to turn, "into the turn" once you had the desired direction. be very precise now.

this is the punch line! please repeat your trial if necessary. and thank you for your indulgence!

[chuckroast]

This is the most oddly esoteric thread ever....

But, on my last three rides I have absolutely paid attention to how I entered turns. This is so subtle it's over my head.

[allegretto]

alright, it's late at night and my children are ready to go to bed.

i've been trying to get you guys to challenge your established notions and really think about how you turn the bicycle or motorcycle.

how you initiate, how you tighten, or how you cease turning. DK is the only one to even begin to go out and try it (thank you). i'm really tired of it.

here's the end of the story;

you never, never, never turn into a turn to make a turn. as the guy who answered the door in Oz, "not no way, not no how". if you actually "turn in", at any time/point you'll be off the road and on your a$$ in a heartbeat.

you turn away to initiate, you stabilize and go straight if your happy with everything, you decrease the angle you're away if you're turned/leaned too far (most will never be here BTW), and you increase/turn away more if you want to increase your velocity/tighten the turn.

the only time you turn "into" a turn is when you want to go straight (the "turn" is over) or if you're too deep (unlikely). and even then, the correction is very small.

[bikinchris]

What am I missing here? You steer by leaning. You can't just turn the bars and turn right. You have to lean to the right. Either you lean right by leaning your body (not very effective) or you countersteer and then lean to the right. Watch a paceline make a turn to the right. Everyone will come away from the edge and go toward the centerline in an arc. Once they have completed that initial turn to the left, they will turn right.

I teach many kids how to ride every year. One of the first lessons is how to make a turn. (after learning how to stop and balance). You countersteer, lean into the turn, then oversteer to straighten out and make a corner. You 'turn' the handlebars to correct your balance. You lean the bike to make a succesful turn.