Most ahead of their time bike builder?

[c-record]

Question is just that. I was thinking of 'system integration' and 'module' construction in bicycles nowadays and thinking how 'different' used to be bad. Now if things aren't proprietary and integrated from bike builders to component companies it's seen as less innovative. So who's the most ahead of their time bike builder?

My vote goes for Klein. Clear back to the 80s with stuff like pressed in bearings, advanced processing of tube manipulation, over-sized forks, big fork bearings, 'fuselage' frame construction etc. Though Serotta S-bend chainstays are pretty cool. :)

Thoughts?

[malcolm]

Other than cool factor, which I'm a big fan of, do any of the modern improvements make a bit of difference for most recreational cyclist. I've never been faster than on my old late '80s centurion prestige. I do like the new steels better than most sl or slx tubing of old and I like my Ti bike, never really bonded as well with my carbon offering but I like it ok.

[Nautilus]

Jeff Jones.

[dnades]

For carbon I'd give it to Calfee. Wayyy ahead of everybody else in that field. Especially in the 90's.

[Likes2ridefar]

Jeff Jones.

+1!

[nahtnoj]

Much more familiar w/ mountain bike history than road history, so lets try that.

On the knocking it out of the park on the first try front, you have to have Chris Chance pretty high on the list, and full suspension props go to Dave Turner IMO.

Typing this thread is causing me to regret selling my Yo Eddy! all over again...

[R2D2]

Lynskey and Ti production back to the emerging Litespeed days.

Vitus and Alan.

Look for early carbon (TVT sucked a little though) and mass production clipless.

[gdw]

No other builders come close.

[alancw3]

mountain bikes. i will go with dave turner and his maverick bikes.

road cycles. gotta go with cannondale for how far they have taken the aluminum frame and of course for giving the industry the bb30 bottom bracket. having owned a klein in the late eighties i do have to give gary a very close second place. that bike was bullet proof. for carbon frames i go with colnago. the rest of the carbon bike manufacturers were also rans imho. the C40 set the standard on lugged construction. banboo and in general pushing the envelope hands down calfee.

[palincss]

Other than cool factor, which I'm a big fan of, do any of the modern improvements make a bit of difference for most recreational cyclist.


Yes, I think indexed shifting made a big difference for the recreational cyclist. Cycle computers made a difference, too, although not as much of a one.

Other than those things, probably not.

[zap]

Klein and Look............KG186/196. ;)

[Joellogicman]

Question is just that. I was thinking of 'system integration' and 'module' construction in bicycles nowadays and thinking how 'different' used to be bad. Now if things aren't proprietary and integrated from bike builders to component companies it's seen as less innovative. So who's the most ahead of their time bike builder?

My vote goes for Klein. Clear back to the 80s with stuff like pressed in bearings, advanced processing of tube manipulation, over-sized forks, big fork bearings, 'fuselage' frame construction etc. Though Serotta S-bend chainstays are pretty cool. :)

Thoughts?

If the latter, Rene Herse has to be pretty high up there. RH was a constant innovater for more than 30 years.

[rockdude]

David Krik and his DKS. I think in the next 10 years road bikes will move to some form of suspension.

[malcolm]

Yes, I think indexed shifting made a big difference for the recreational cyclist. Cycle computers made a difference, too, although not as much of a one.

Other than those things, probably not.


forgot about indexed shifting. That did make things easier/better

[GuyGadois]

Bill Holland is working on some interesting Ti & carbon intergartion with his Exogrid...

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9170/img1697o.jpg

[paulandmonster]

very similar to another manufactuer out of the sw titus exogrid http://titusti.com/vuelo.html

[c-record]

Much more familiar w/ mountain bike history than road history, so lets try that.

On the knocking it out of the park on the first try front, you have to have Chris Chance pretty high on the list, and full suspension props go to Dave Turner IMO.

Typing this thread is causing me to regret selling my Yo Eddy! all over again...


Never had the scratch for an Eddy back in the day. They came out with that Buckshaver but I couldn't go 75%.

[c-record]

For carbon I'd give it to Calfee. Wayyy ahead of everybody else in that field. Especially in the 90's.

Because Craig was early? Look/Vitus had carbon pretty far back too?

[c-record]

Bill Holland is working on some interesting Ti & carbon intergartion with his Exogrid...

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9170/img1697o.jpg


Same stuff wasn't it?

[c-record]

very similar to another manufactuer out of the sw titus exogrid http://titusti.com/vuelo.html

Yep, what he said.

[Z3c]

Because Craig was early? Look/Vitus had carbon pretty far back too?

True but those guys were using pretty simple glue and tubes to alu lugs.

Gotta second Gary Klein; integrated headsets and pressed in bb's many years ago.

[cadence90]

Definitely John Kemp Starley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kemp_Starley), hands down.


http://www.kipnotes.com/Automo12.jpghttp://www.sewalot.com/images/starley_bicycle_alex_askaroff_hands_off.JPG

[Lifelover]

Sachs was way ahead of his time in regards to making what is old, new again.

[dekindy]

Shame on everyone for not putting Ben Serotta at the top of the list.

[Z3c]

Shame on everyone for not putting Ben Serotta at the top of the list.

For what?

[scottcw2]

For what?

http://www.serotta.com/about/history.html

[eric007]

Granting there are large gaps in my knowledge of bike history, here goes:
1. Wilbur and Orville Wright -- really, think about it. Of course, calling them visionary builders is like saying Newton was good a optics and some other stuff.
2. Ignaz Schwinn -- Who else put 20 million Americans on road bikes with derailleurs ( . . . granted, these were 42-lb road bikes, but oh well)
3. Rene Hearse
4. Ben Serotta
5. Richard Sachs -- 'cuz sticking to your own vision is forward thinking

[Steve in SLO]

No other builders come close.
:beer: Clever post of the day :beer:

[LegendRider]

For carbon I'd give it to Calfee. Wayyy ahead of everybody else in that field. Especially in the 90's.

Totally agree. The CarbonFrames (Calfee) that LeMond rode in the 91 Tour is very similar to the one produced today. In fact, you could put a modern group and wheels on a 15 year old Calfee and it would be a Pro Tour bike.

[bnewt07]

Ernesto Colnago for the C40?

Used traditional values to build a butted carbon frame which achieved a great deal and still provides a template for many manufacturers.

[goonster]

Custom aluminum bikes in the 30's: Nicola Barra.

[rnhood]

There is a difference between innovation and just building a good bike, or refining existing design ideals. I would agree with the comments on Calfee and Klein, both these were pioneering new ideas and methods in bike construction and performance - and were on the leading edge of innovation. I think Serotta makes the list due to their fit and customization process. It was also setting the benchmark for personalizing the bike.

[palincss]

Shame on everyone for not putting Ben Serotta at the top of the list.

I hardly think oval tubes qualifies as an innovation [first off, at all, as there were oval boob tubes on tandems long before Ben went to England] that makes things easier for recreational cyclists. Oval, shmoval, who really notices the shape of the tubes, unless they're trying to install a Jump Stop device and it won't fit because the tube isn't round?

[dekindy]

David Krik and his DKS. I think in the next 10 years road bikes will move to some form of suspension.

I believe he was working for Serotta when he developed this. Isn't this a Serotta innovation?

Dave, realistically could you have developed this on your own without the resources of a larger company?

[dekindy]

For what?

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=13962&page=2&pp=15&highlight=innovation
See post #30. Apparently a very highly regarded builder perceives Serotta as innovative. I am not enough of an historian to name them all. Apparently Serotta developed the first aero frame in 1976. DKS was develope at Serotta and has been listed in another post as an innovation. I believe Colorado Concept tubing, S-Bend chain stays are Serotta innovations? Serotta claims to have the only triple butted titanium tubing and I believe I am correct that they have applied this concept to carbon and I am not aware of anyone else doing this. I attended a presentation by Ben Serotta and he referred to several things that Serotta developed and were copied by the industry. I do not recall the specifics.

I consider the Serotta fit system and the Serotta International Cycling Institute to be an innovation developed by a frame builder.

[Oirad]

What cadence90 writes, +1.

Oirad

[Hardlyrob]

What about Kestrel - monocoque frames in the late 80's and early 90's - surely a pioneer in carbon no?

Rob

[happycampyer]

What about Kestrel - monocoque frames in the late 80's and early 90's - surely a pioneer in carbon no?

RobI think that Brent Trimble designed the Kestrel 4000 sometime in the mid-'80's. His brother, Jim, produced a ridiculously fast, full carbon monocoque TT frame around 1990 or so that was ahead of its time.

[spacemen3]

This blew me away when I first saw it:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3411/3256295276_887b274eee_o.jpg

[texbike]

It's already been mentioned, but Calfee gets my vote. Not only for its innovation in carbon and bamboo but also for its social work in developing countries.

Instead of giving a man a fish, they're teaching him to fish by helping to establish bamboo bike production facilities in places like Ghana with plans for many more.

See www.bamboosero.com .

How many other bike companies can make that claim?

Texbike

[johnnymossville]

I think the first large frame diameter framed aluminum Cannondales were pretty impressive when they came out.

[fiamme red]

I think the first large frame diameter framed aluminum Cannondales were pretty impressive when they came out.Not original. They were preceded by Gary Klein (and a number of other engineering students at M.I.T.). In fact, Klein sued Cannondale for patent infringement.

[fiamme red]

Alex Moulton.

http://www.moultonbicycles.co.uk/heritage.html

[MattTuck]

I think in the next 10 years road bikes will move to some form of suspension.

If the roads keep degrading at the current rate, they'll have to!

[johnnymossville]

Not original. They were preceded by Gary Klein (and a number of other engineering students at M.I.T.). In fact, Klein sued Cannondale for patent infringement.


ahh, I didn't know that, thanks for the info! kinda like now Xerox Parc had GUI and Mouse computing and Steve Jobs took a little field trip over there and "invented" it. :)

[c-record]

I hardly think oval tubes qualifies as an innovation [first off, at all, as there were oval boob tubes on tandems long before Ben went to England] that makes things easier for recreational cyclists. Oval, shmoval, who really notices the shape of the tubes, unless they're trying to install a Jump Stop device and it won't fit because the tube isn't round?

Colorado Concept tubing was the stuff! Much more than simple ovalizing. Swaging with tapering going in the opposite direction. Look at what C-dale has pushed on their AL downtubes prior to carbon and then look at a Serotta from the early 90s. Pretty cool what those tubes(as well as dual taper seatstays and S-bend seatstays) do for the ride of a bike.

[c-record]

Some ideas just seem like different for difference sake(still going on now). just different 'cause does not equal innovation.

[lemonlaug]

If the roads keep degrading at the current rate, they'll have to!

Unless they continue to be repaired at the current rate too.

[RonW87]

I'm a full-on campy guy, but leaving Shimano out of this thread is silly. I appreciate the S-company if for no other reason than how they pushed the C-company.

Ron

edit: I see now this thread is about "bikes". But aren't the components part of the bike?

[mister]

norris lockley, bespoke of settle.
he did some awesome stuff. still think he builds too.
of course he's not the one or only that was innovative but i've looked through his flickr pages. good stuff.

[dvancleve]

Carbon fiber: Look KG 196, still looks pretty swoopy/modern, one of the first with an integrated headset and stem.

Ti: Passoni with the one piece bar/stem and I think before that they did some wild, super spendy Ti bikes that had a completey proprietary bar/stem/fork (vaguely remember seeing something in the original Bicycle Guide).

Steel: didn't Schwinn do some of the early production oversize tubing with the Paramount in the mid-80s?

Doug

[David Kirk]

H.S Owen.

He has patents dating back to 1889 that show the future of mountain bike design and suspension. Think all these new MTB designs are new? Not so much.



Ben Serotta.

He dared make changes to the standard designs of the day with tube shapes and diameters that other builders poo pooed at the time as unnecessary and a waste of time. His work started the modern move toward oversize and tapered tubes and also made lots of companies puke out a lot of crap with clover shaped or triangular tubes for the fashion of it that they claimed to be laterally stiff and vertically compliant. And while Serotta was not the first to dip into the titanium market he was the first to use something other than standard straight gauge hydraulic tubing to make frames with. His use of butting and the method of making the butts is still, IMO, setting the standard. One might argue that some of these things were not developed by Ben himself I would argue that they would not have been possible without him. He nurtured and frankly pushed many of us to do things that at the time had not been done before and he made sure that the company could fund the work. His vision allowed a good number of us to pursue our vision and to make better bikes.



Dario Pegoretti.

Dario's common sense approach to design and fitting have set a standard that many builders don't even know they are following and his use of tube shape and diameter changed the way we all look at design. Couple that with his daring to offer such wonderful and outrageous paint schemes put him near the top of the list.



Peter Weigle.

Peter's work has always driven everyone else to try to match his level of detail of craft and he's now making the bikes the french were trying to make way back when. His work is and always has been a beacon.



Grant Peterson.

Grant's pioneering work at Bridgestone helped set the standard for what a race bike could and should be. It was far enough ahead of it's time that it literally pushed the company to abandon the US market. People just didn't understand it when he spoke of frame flex and how it can be a good thing in the age of the Klein.




That's all I gots for now but it's very far from a complete list.

dave

[GuyGadois]

+1 what he (dk) said

Good points.

[John M]

What about Kestrel - monocoque frames in the late 80's and early 90's - surely a pioneer in carbon no?

Rob

+1. First commercially viable full carbon frameset. At the time the Kestrel fork was probably the best overall bicycle component available, and the monocoque frames far exceeded the performance of carbon tubed bikes that were around at the time. The weakness of the monocoque was/is limited size availability.

Sadly, I think Kestrel has long been surpassed in the tech area.

[merlinmurph]

From a historical perspective, don't the original Merlin boys deserve a mention? Gary Helfrich, Chris Chance - others?

Maybe I'm way off base, but I was under the impression that they developed a lot of the techniques to build a ti frame efficiently and pretty much started the ti revolution.

[Ahneida Ride]

I gotta throw in Mr. Kirk in there for the DKS .... Brilliant idea !
Maybe someday I'll find a 64 or 65 DKS.


Mr. Kirk, Mr. Bedford and Mr. Wages never receive their due credit for
their work at Serotta.

[c-record]

H.S Owen.

He has patents dating back to 1889 that show the future of mountain bike design and suspension. Think all these new MTB designs are new? Not so much.



Ben Serotta.

He dared make changes to the standard designs of the day with tube shapes and diameters that other builders poo pooed at the time as unnecessary and a waste of time. His work started the modern move toward oversize and tapered tubes and also made lots of companies puke out a lot of crap with clover shaped or triangular tubes for the fashion of it that they claimed to be laterally stiff and vertically compliant. And while Serotta was not the first to dip into the titanium market he was the first to use something other than standard straight gauge hydraulic tubing to make frames with. His use of butting and the method of making the butts is still, IMO, setting the standard. One might argue that some of these things were not developed by Ben himself I would argue that they would not have been possible without him. He nurtured and frankly pushed many of us to do things that at the time had not been done before and he made sure that the company could fund the work. His vision allowed a good number of us to pursue our vision and to make better bikes.



Dario Pegoretti.

Dario's common sense approach to design and fitting have set a standard that many builders don't even know they are following and his use of tube shape and diameter changed the way we all look at design. Couple that with his daring to offer such wonderful and outrageous paint schemes put him near the top of the list.



Peter Weigle.

Peter's work has always driven everyone else to try to match his level of detail of craft and he's now making the bikes the french were trying to make way back when. His work is and always has been a beacon.



Grant Peterson.

Grant's pioneering work at Bridgestone helped set the standard for what a race bike could and should be. It was far enough ahead of it's time that it literally pushed the company to abandon the US market. People just didn't understand it when he spoke of frame flex and how it can be a good thing in the age of the Klein.




That's all I gots for now but it's very far from a complete list.

dave


I remember that Serotta had the first mountain bikes with what in the 90's became standard cross-country geometry.

And on Dave Kirk can be added to the list above. :)

[David Kirk]

I remember that Serotta had the first mountain bikes with what in the 90's became standard cross-country geometry.

Another good one. I raced off road for a big team at the time I started working for Serotta and when it came time to make our first MTB's looked at my team issue bike as well as other popular bikes of the day and realized they all sucked unless you were on fireroad doing 40 mph. The TMax was designed to work on the terrain that we road on in upstate NY. Rocky, tight twisted. technical single track. Those bikes really worked and still do.

Thanks for bringing that up. I'd like a 53 cm TMax if I could find one.

Dave

[bfd]

It's already been mentioned, but Calfee gets my vote. Not only for its innovation in carbon and bamboo but also for its social work in developing countries.

Instead of giving a man a fish, they're teaching him to fish by helping to establish bamboo bike production facilities in places like Ghana with plans for many more.

See www.bamboosero.com .

How many other bike companies can make that claim?

Texbike

Tom Ritchey is doing similar work with his Project Rowanda:

http://projectrwanda.org/

"Project Rwanda is committed to furthering the economic development of Rwanda through initiatives based on the bicycle as a tool and symbol of hope. Our goal is use the bike to help boost the Rwandan economy as well as re-brand Rwanda as a beautiful and safe place to do business and visit freely. "

I don't know who was first or whether it even matters. The bottom line is both are doing what they can to help people in those countries! :cool: :beer: :butt:

[c-record]

Another good one. I raced off road for a big team at the time I started working for Serotta and when it came time to make our first MTB's looked at my team issue bike as well as other popular bikes of the day and realized they all sucked unless you were on fireroad doing 40 mph. The TMax was designed to work on the terrain that we road on in upstate NY. Rocky, tight twisted. technical single track. Those bikes really worked and still do.

Thanks for bringing that up. I'd like a 53 cm TMax if I could find one.

Dave

My TiMax (Colorado Concept-straight gauge tubing) was sold to a buddy. I really miss that bike sometimes. :(

[palincss]

I'm a full-on campy guy, but leaving Shimano out of this thread is silly. I appreciate the S-company if for no other reason than how they pushed the C-company.

Ron

edit: I see now this thread is about "bikes". But aren't the components part of the bike?

And who first developed indexed shifting that actually worked?

[Vancouverdave]

Rene Herse, both for integrating components with the frame as well as designing improvements on parts that were available at the time, and for helping optimize a design-type that is still viable today--how many randonneur and touring bikes built today could well be RH knockoffs, geometrically? If you want to see what Herse brakes looked like, find an 80's mountain bike with early Shimano cantilevers--they had to have been at least partial copies.
Charlie Cunningham did the same thing with mountain bikes in the early 1980's--aluminum tubes, injectable cartridge bearings, purpose-designed parts, parts at least partially integrated with the frame.
And how about early deviations from steel in frames, aluminum starting in the 1930's (Barra, Caminargent) carbon (Carlton, I remember an early 60's pictures in Popular Science of a frame they displayed in "carbon fiber reinforced plastic) and titanium (Teledyne, which kind of worked, Speedwell which also kind of worked!)

[goonster]

how many randonneur and touring bikes built today could well be RH knockoffs, geometrically?
Not many. Most of the vaunted RH audax/camping bikes were built for high-volume tires, which have only become available again recently, and featured low trail steering geometry, which I recall being ridiculed on this very forum only a few years ago.

[flickwet]

No other builders come close.
+1

[mister]

Not many. Most of the vaunted RH audax/camping bikes were built for high-volume tires, which have only become available again recently, and featured low trail steering geometry, which I recall being ridiculed on this very forum only a few years ago.

i think he was probably referring to the low trail design needed to carry a front load up by the bars like many of the rando guys like to do.
so yeah. most rando bikes have low trail.

[c-record]

titanium (Teledyne, which kind of worked, Speedwell which also kind of worked!)[/QUOTE]


I'd heard they all pretty much broke.