Will Serotta ever get rid of the riveted cable guides

[pamountainbiker]

The one detail, seriously, the one detail that keeps me from purchasing a Serotta Carbon HSG is the riveted on cable guides. I know this sounds trivial, but why does Serotta continue to do this when every other high end (custom / semi-custom) carbon bike manufacturer can find a more elegant solution. Will they ever produce a carbon bike with integrated carbon stops (more than just those on the headtube)?

[avalonracing]

Well, the beauty of a riveted one is that it is an easy fix if there is an issue.
This happened to a friend of mine and he was back on the bike a couple of days later (including the shipping time).

[Jeff N.]

The one detail, seriously, the one detail that keeps me from purchasing a Serotta Carbon HSG is the riveted on cable guides. I know this sounds trivial, but why does Serotta continue to do this when every other high end (custom / semi-custom) carbon bike manufacturer can find a more elegant solution. Will they ever produce a carbon bike with integrated carbon stops (more than just those on the headtube)?Ever seen Parlee's? THAT'S how it's done. Jeff N.

[dekindy]

No I have not seen a Parlee so I don't understand whether you are agreeing with Serotta's design or the criticism of Serotta's design. For us unenlightened ones, how does Parlee do it?

[Kevan]

Ever seen Parlee's? THAT'S how it's done. Jeff N.

from how Calfee does it. The guides are integrated, glued essentially, onto the tube and included in the coating, if applied.

[Lifelover]

Having converted a geared bike to a SS, I wish mine had rivets. They would be easier to remove.

I like to think that Serotta is worrying about bigger things than cable guides or adding Gestalt.

[Jeff N.]

Having converted a geared bike to a SS, I wish mine had rivets. They would be easier to remove.

I like to think that Serotta is worrying about bigger things than cable guides or adding Gestalt.It's called attention to detail. Jeff N.

[csm]

2 posts and this is one of them? I find it very hard to believe that this would be a dealbreaker.
besides, I think they're welded on my ti frame.

[dave thompson]

The one detail, seriously, the one detail that keeps me from purchasing a Serotta Carbon HSG is the riveted on cable guides. I know this sounds trivial, but why does Serotta continue to do this when every other high end (custom / semi-custom) carbon bike manufacturer can find a more elegant solution. Will they ever produce a carbon bike with integrated carbon stops (more than just those on the headtube)?
I've had more than a couple of Serottas with the riveted cable guides and not had any problems with them. They are strong, easily replaceable/repairable if necessary and IMO not something that's draws my attention if they work like they are supposed to.

[jasond]

I like them and find nothing wrong with them. Quite honestly I knew they were riveted but have never paid any attention to them.

J

[Lifelover]

It's called attention to detail. Jeff N.

I see it as function over form.

[Charles M]

Owning both the Meivici and a Z1sl...


Glueing on a stop versus in-moulding a head lug with a genuine integrated stop (Meivici) and drilling and riveting the top tube, doing it with care and using pretty nice stops are just two different ways to take care of a detail.

I dont call it a lack of attention to it...

I'm not saying you shouldnt like one more than the other (I really like the detail on the Z1sl)... Or that you shouldn't limiting yourself to only bikes with all of the stops glued on.

Definitly get what you like.

But I'm really glad I didn't let a well executed mechanically fastened stop prevent me from getting the Meivici or the Crumpton SL or the Colnago EPS or any of a couple dozen others :)


And honestly I'm happy fifferent companies do things different ways. This crap would get pretty boring if everyone liked the same thing.

[Jeff N.]

To me, there's a good way (bonding) and a not so good way of doing things. The best way of doing things is usually the one that's more labor intensive, and I don't see the use of rivets falling into that category, that's all. Jeff N.

[Mr. Butterworth]

Aside from internal routing, what's the other option for carbon bikes?
Just about every carbon fiber frame on the market has either rivet or glue on cable guides - hopefully both. The only bike I'm aware of that has fully in-molded external cable guides is that new BH G5 AG2R bike...

[Charles M]

Serotta have both (moulded in and rivs)...


To me, there's a good way (bonding) and a not so good way of doing things. The best way of doing things is usually the one that's more labor intensive, and I don't see the use of rivets falling into that category, that's all. Jeff N.

I gotcha, but going to both factories and watching it done, there's not loads more labor between the two ways. Even if there were, strictly speaking, more work only ever means more work and the results are what matters. In this case the work done isnt a lot different and there's virtually no functional difference (again,I like the clean look of the Parlee)


The Parlee and Serotta are two of the top 5 bikes I have ever ridden... I wouldnt do without any of them based on a very small, functionally similar, mostly overlooked but still well executed detail.

But if someone's limited to a choice, they should absolutely get the one they want most and consider everything...

[turf]

My C50 is riveted and has not caused problems.

[trophyoftexas]

I like them and find nothing wrong with them. Quite honestly I knew they were riveted but have never paid any attention to them.

J

I posted comparison pictures a year or so ago about TdF lugs vs. standard Serotta lugs on two almost identical CSi's that I own and it wasn't until someone here made a big deal out of the riveted stops on the older one that I even took notice of them.....I guess it's because I ride mostly bikes that sport downtube shifters and hadn't even considerd a riveted stop before one way or the other....the stops on my Ottrott are bonded on with something that (under the coat of paint) looks like a gob of superglue, so to my way of thinking the rivet is much preferred.

[Brian Smith]

Just a quick note here from someone in production at Serotta regarding the cable guides mounted onto carbon tubes. I think this detail is pretty thoroughly sweated by Serotta, and just to give examples, let me describe the guides as they are manufactured and installed on a Meivici.

Firstly, the raw titanium material arrives at Serotta as roughly 3/8" x 7/16" bar stock. After being sawn to standard length pieces, a bikesworth of material is CNC machined into the dual rivet cable guide shape to within 0.005" tolerances or better. Proper sizing for the rivet heads and shafts, and for concentricity for the cable housing ferrule and inner wire are further checked for compliance with dedicated QC tools. After deburring, and two episodes of vibratory tumbling in different media, we are left with parts having a nice satin/polished surface finish. The drill holes in the carbon tubes are created during the tube mitering/coping process in the 5-axis CNC milling machine. The locations of the guides are driven by the spreadsheet drafting program for each order/serial number, and don't rely on any human positioning. The drill bit that creates these holes is slightly over 1/8" diameter (~3mm) yet is driven accurately and gently enough that it lasts well over a thousand cycles. When the frame is being bonded with these tubes, the cable guides are applied. To prevent any corrosion issues, stainless steel rivets are used instead of aluminum rivets. They are considerably more expensive and more difficult to install (and stronger!) but when you buy a Meivici, you are paying for the best. Despite the tiny footprint of this part, I've never seen one fail. That's nice for one's peace of mind when grabbing a handful of rear brake on a fast descent, or in a traffic situation. So, after the part is installed and the frame is built, the frame is painted, even on a clear-only frame. The result is that the finish of the cable guide part may not give obvious clues to its material, but just does it's job in a subdued non-corrosive super-strong manner for the frame's lifespan. If you've ever had to remove a corroded cable housing ferrule from a stuck position inside of a cable guide, you might appreciate the idea that such a thing could not happen here.

I just wanted to give some info here which might be helpful: that the cable guide system is nothing of a shortcut, and certainly isn't a cost reduction measure. Instead, it's a detail that's not only sweated - it's dialed. I don't think that it is meant to be the sole item that makes someone decide to buy a Serotta over something else (there are a lot of nice bikes out there), but a company that relied more heavily on marketing than quality would probably present about a half-dozen bullet points about the cable guide manufacture and frame installation process used here. It's not a revolutionary thing, but just a very quality-focused manner of getting the job done well.

Signing off for now,
-Brian

[csm]

great response from inside!

[Jeff N.]

great response from inside!
Riveting. ;) Jeff N.

[pamountainbiker]

I really appreciated Serotta weighing in on this one. In reality I wouldn't "disqualify" an HSG because of riveted guides. My issue is that I don't live anywhere near where I can see these bikes, much less ride them, in person. So, I'm stuck to looking at pictures on the web, gathering info via forums like these, or paying to have demos shipped to me, which gets expensive. My short list at this point (not in any order) would be the Parlee Z4, HSG, custom Eriksen ti, or a 2010 Trek Madone. Yes, I did say Trek Madone. I'll put on a different post regarding the 4 of these bikes to get your opinions.