OT: Racial profiling story (back in the 80s)

[DukeHorn]

I'm Asian American so I'll not pretend that I have experienced anywhere near the amount of exposure to racial slights like African Americans or Hispanics in our society (but I've gotten a fair share), but the Gates case reminded me of this incident back in college. (I'll not touch upon the he said/he said aspect of the case nor reference MA state law on disorderly conduct (and public spaces)).

I was driving back to Austin from spring break and got pulled over near San Antonio by a state trooper. He comes up to the car with his mirrored sunglasses, looks at all the camping gear in the back of my truck and then asks me "Son, have you recently crossed the river."

I was baffled by what he was talking about. "What river??"

"The Rio Grande"

???? I'm like, are you kidding me, the Rio Grande is nowhere near San Antonio. Ah, but with my camping tan, my lanky black hair (no real showers in 5 days), I guess he presumed I was Hispanic. I responded with a "No Sir"

He then proceeded to poke through all my gear to make sure no one was underneath and then let me go on my merry way.

Would I act so meekly now as an attorney who understands some of my basic rights? What was his probable cause? Would I be more upset to be treated in this manner because of the color of my skin (even as a case of mistaken ethnic identity)? I think I would.

PS Then there was the time in Texas when I was gardening in my front yard and one of my new neighbors came up to me (on a nice cul de sac in Austin), said I was doing a good job and asked me how much I cost. Nice.......

[link]

internment camps on us soil for asian american citizens after the Pearl Harbor ...not okay ...sooooo not okay

[paulrad9]

You should update the title of this thread to include the word Texas otherwise people may think this happened in the US

[WeakRider]

You should update the title of this thread to include the word Texas otherwise people may think this happened in the US

LOL

[paczki]

It happened in one of the most liberal cities in the US, my home, Cambridge!

[MattTuck]

said I was doing a good job and asked me how much I cost. Nice.......

I hope you gave her your billable rate (if you are that type of attorney). Would have liked to see the look on her face.

[Ozz]

I hope you gave her your billable rate (if you are that type of attorney). Would have liked to see the look on her face.
that's what I was thinking!

:beer:

[RPS]

I'm Asian American so I'll not pretend that I have experienced anywhere near the amount of exposure to racial slights like African Americans or Hispanics in our society (but I've gotten a fair share), but the Gates case reminded me of this incident back in college.
IMHO we need to be very careful before accusing people of racism. Although there are abuses, not all stupid acts are driven by racism or profiling. Sometimes a stupid act is just that.

I’m considered Hispanic (although I’m anti-classification on principle) and my name gives me away so there is never any misunderstanding. I’ve also been on the receiving end of prejudice (which to me means a certain amount of pre-judging which I consider normal and not the same as being a racist – fine distinction but important to me to function in a white-dominated society).

The Gates incident confirms once again that three normal to very intelligent people can do stupid things and use very poor judgment. I have no doubt Gates mouthed off to the cop which is never a good idea, Crowley should have had thicker skin and let Gates comments go unanswered, and Obama should have never gotten the Presidency of the USA involved at a local level against law enforcement to defend a personal friend when he admittedly didn’t have all the facts. IMHO all three were less than wise.

I seriously doubt that this incident was driven by racism. Sgt. Crowley gave mouth-to-mouth to a dying young black man not long ago, and I doubt he would have done so if he was a racist. Just because race is involved doesn’t make it a racist act. If anything, I think more racism has been expressed from the black community towards Crowley. If a black police officer arrested a famous white man who had mouthed off, and a white president of the US jumped in and accused the black officer of “stupidity” on national TV for arresting his friend, what would our reaction be in today’s politically-correct world?

And BTW, I do think that Hispanic and Black officers do arrest famous white men and women who mouth off to them – hence why it’s never a good idea unless you are looking to get arrested to make a point. I personally think some cops can be idiots at times and let their power go to their head (I’ve had a couple of encounters of this type), but their stupidity doesn’t automatically make them racist.

[Bruce K]

I'm not sure why this topic is worth discussing on a bicycling forum but I am sure it has a great chance to get ugly fast.

Please, if we must discuss this here, try to keep it reasonable.

BK

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . this is tailor made for a flame fest. What is the motivation for even bringing this up here? Anyone who has been on the forum for any length of time knows this is an extremely flammable topic.

BBD

[SamIAm]

A couple thoughts:

RPS usually gets it right and this is no exception.

Classifying a traffic stop that occurred decades ago to a college student returning from spring break as racial profiling and regurgitating it in this forum is lame to quite lame.

[flydhest]

Sam,
I think the OP's point was, even if it was explicit racial profiling, his being polite and showing deference to the officer resulted in the whole thing ending easily.

[Kevan]

How about that town meeting held in Delaware where some woman challanged Obama's citizenship, questioning his birthplace, and wanting (No, demanding) her country back because among many things her father fought in WWII?

That scene was pure-unadulterated-ugliness.

[Pete Serotta]

Ideas, opinions, and feelings are being expressed with "no attack" :banana: :banana:

Yes the wine is on me.......ie I will pour and help drink :beer:


It was an unfortunate incidence and one I wish did not happen.as I am sure all involved do.


Thanks for keeping it a conversation and exchange among friends....

PETE

[goonster]

Two thoughts about this case (and neither is about race):

1. Is the porch a "public space" under MA law?

2. Knowing what (little) we know about this incident, why would a cop arrest a homeowner in this scenario for disorderly conduct? Resisting arrest, assault, impeding an investigation I could understand, but not DC . . .

[palincss]

2. Knowing what (little) we know about this incident, why would a cop arrest a homeowner in this scenario for disorderly conduct? Resisting arrest, assault, impeding an investigation I could understand, but not DC . . .

Certainly seem rather "stupid" to me -- and I'm sure in hindsight the Department would agree that it was.

[paczki]

Certainly seem rather "stupid" to me -- and I'm sure in hindsight the Department would agree that it was.

Not the arresting officer. But he is quite convincing in his defense:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/23/officer.gates.arrest/index.html

[BumbleBeeDave]

Some years ago I dated an African American woman for a considerable period of time. Her skin was extremely dark and mine is--well, let's be honest--pasty white. I don't tan well.

When we went out it was not unusual for us to get "looks" and even for people to hear people making remarks . . . Sometimes innocently or ignorantly. Sometimes in real whispers we accidentally overheard, and sometimes in that exaggerated stage whisper actors use when they definitely want to be overheard at a distance. It was a real surprise to me that we got just as much reaction from blacks to her being with a white man as we did from whites reacting to my being with a black woman.

Prejudice, over-sensitivity, and axe-grinding know no specific race. All people are capable of them. Unfortunately we will probably never know the subtext of what happened during this incident. What tone of voice did each person use? What body language or facial expressions that may have entirely changed what they were saying to each other? What tone did the officer use in asking for ID? What tone did Gates use in debating the circumstances?

I think often people see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear filtered through their preconceived notions and their own personal history. It's unfortunately entirely possible that the white officer was "profiling" Gates because he was a black man. It's also entirely possible that Gates was also "profiling" the officer and reacting the way he did because he was a white police officer.

Just an unfortunate situation that almost everyone hearing about it will also filter through their own personal prejudices and experiences.

BBD

[DukeHorn]

Why should this be flammable topic if discussed properly?

And I'm not one disposed to using the term "racism" because it's overly loaded and inaccurate. I don't think Crowley is a racist. The entire Gates/Crowley thing is a function of (in my mind) machismo.

I understand both Crowley's position (checking a potential crime) and Gates' postion (I'm a guy in my house). The unfortunate thing is that neither guy was big enough to let it go and you end up with a man arrested on his own porch for disorderly conduct. Now was there possibility an element of race in whether he got arrested for disorderly conduct (maybe that's the real flammable question, but I have my opinions).

With that being said, I'm also pointing out that racial profiling does occur and the possibility of it happening to affluent minorities as opposed to affluent whites is much higher. I'm pre-disposed to just taking it in stride (but it's only happened to me once) but I understand if at some point, folks get angry about it.

And if people can just understand a part of that, part of the history, perhaps this issue can be spoken about more intelligently. More so than the visceral hatred that you see over at the Boston Globe, NY Times, etc. websites. Because it should be talked about instead of being ignored. (or we should give up and let the Birthers hog the media spotlight during a war and a recession).

[RPS]

And I'm not one disposed to using the term "racism" because it's overly loaded and inaccurate. I don't think Crowley is a racist. The entire Gates/Crowley thing is a function of (in my mind) machismo.I agree that probably has a lot to do with it.

A few years ago my wife and I were moving our daughter to Florida to attend school there; she was driving her small Ranger which was loaded down and I was driving a Class C motorhome towing a big U-Haul trailer. We were caravanning and trying to stay within sight of each other when possible.

Right after we crossed into Florida I got caught in the slow lane behind a bunch of slow trucks (maybe coming out of the weigh station – my bad for not paying attention) and my daughter did as I had requested if we got separated – she slowed down but well above the minimum speed limit; about 55 MPH.

Anyway, as soon as I got around the trucks I saw a cop fly out from behind trees and go after her. She pulled into a rest area and he stopped behind her. My wife and I pulled the RV and trailer next to them in the parking area to see what was happening.

To my surprise, as soon as we walked towards them this SOB turned around and forcefully (and very rudely) told my wife and me to stay back. ***? We were not threatening him in any way whatsoever, were in a very public place during the middle of the day with lots of people around, and wearing shorts and T-shirts which would have shown any weapons.

From a distance we had to tell him we were her parents and were driving her to school. Only then did he allow us to approach. Seconds later another cop pulled behind as backup. When I asked the officer why he had pulled her over, he said she was driving “suspiciously”, or too slow. That’s when I got pissed and asked him for the official radar speed, which indicated she was going above the minimum speed limit – hence doing nothing wrong or illegal. At this point he realized we were not a couple of idiots that were just going to allow him to push us around without justification.

Was this profiling? You bet; but not of the racial type since my daughter is very white (light skin, hair, and eyes). The profile they were looking for was anyone that looked “wrong” or out of place, doing anything that stood out – like going 55 MPH. Apparently Florida cops thought that drug runners are extra careful to not get pulled over to the point of going too slow.

Needless to say this incident could have gotten out of hand very easily because there is no way I was going to let my daughter remain under his control without us being there to witness everything. Had he told us to get in the RV and keep going the situation would have surely escalated and I’d end up arrested or worse.

[Peter P.]

Here's a different type of racism-

I'm a white male, 49 y.o. I was in downtown Greenwich CT, which has the highest per capita income in the nation. It's no wonder there are Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Rolls Royce dealerships in town.

I was working on communications equipment in the penthouse of one of the buildings adjacent to the train station. I had to return to my truck to get some tools and I'm wearing a logo'd shirt. As I cross the parking lot to my truck, my path intersects three businessmen walking toward the train. One of these d&%$!bags holds his keys out to me like I'm some sort of valet. I gave him this incredulous look which obviously didn't register . He just ignored me and moved on to find a REAL valet.

We're talkin' "rich on poor" racism.

[link]

My sister and I grew up in DC during the early 60s speaking Italian ...until it got to be too much for my mom.

She endured a lot of looks, whispers and ostracizing from neighbors. We moved to the 'burbs and us kids speaking Italian was never allowed by my mom for quite a long time.

[allegretto]

well we're getting hung up on the "is this racism?" issue and ignoring the police policy which Sgt. Crowley enunciated quite clearly today.

he received a call that two men were using a crowbar to break into a home. the call came from a neighbor.

upon arriving, the officer asked the men to step outside the domicile so he could investigate their presence on the premises. the suspects (sorry, that's what they were at that point) refused, and that's when the shouting began.

Prof. Gates has a long reputation of race-baiting. he's an "Afro-American Scholar".

this situation is tailor-made for him to have gone off on an officer who was following police protocol.

as the officer said, " I have three children and a wife that I want to come home to every night".

'nuff said.

[goonster]

this situation is tailor-made for him to have gone off on an officer who was following police protocol.

as the officer said, " I have three children and a wife that I want to come home to every night".

Police protocol requires the officer to provide his name and badge number.

Is the officer safer because he arrests an unarmed, nonviolent, irate man in his own home? He is not.

The officer may not be a racist, but he does sound like a bully.

[cadence90]

Police protocol requires the officer to provide his name and badge number.

Is the officer safer because he arrests an unarmed, nonviolent, irate man in his own home? He is not.

The officer may not be a racist, but he does sound like a bully.
+1.

First, to label H. L. Gates as a "race-baiter" is really disgusting.

Second, none of us were there, so all we have are words v. words.

Third, I have no idea if Crowley is a good cop or not, but from the accounts so far (yes, I wasn't there) it is very difficult to tell how much he tried to defuse the situation, which is part of his job.
Even if Gates is guilty of reacting in a "non-calm" manner, did Crowley escalate the situation by raising the ante? Not good.

If Harvard Law Prof. Alan Dershowitz had acted like Gates purportedly did, would the response have been the same?

[Pete Serotta]

From all I have read, there is more than enough blame to go around on both sides. In my "not being there" view and reading what was chosen to be printed BOTH PARTIES have some ownership in this mess...

We are dealing with a professor and a police officer ,who teaches how "not to profile",, My question than becomes how did it escalate to what happened. (and this is where the male ego played a role in my belief)

Press made a carnival of it!!!! Why because it is sensationalism! I am willing to bet that far worse things happened to someone yesterday in the US and that it was far more tragic.

for the below paper and press to occur..and to such a degree is tragic:
WSJ
CNN
President comments


I truly believe racial profiling does go on world wide BUT I am not convinced that is what went on here. What I do believe is that two grown men let their emotions get ahead of their brains... YES I have done that far too often also.

[Dekonick]

Ummm

Look at the whole situation again - minus race goggles.

1) someone called 911 because they thought a crime was being committed.

2) police show up -

3) person gets pissed because it is his house. Does the cop know this? Is he supposed to take his word at face value? As far as I am concerned, if it is your house, and PD show up - YOU answer questions. Clairify the situation - show your ID. As far as the responding officer knows, the suspect is attempting burglery, rape, whatever. The only person guilty (if they are) of any percieved profiling is the 911 caller.

Sounds to me like someone (homeowner) needs to chill out.

Cop may have used a bit of force, but he wouldn't have if said homeowner had calmly answered questions and clairified the situation.

Dunno - but over the years I have found that many criminals act just as this homeowner did - who he is is irrevelant. The cop was just doing his job - and HAS to profile a little bit to stay alive. (Does someone look like a junkie? I better be careful when I shove my hand in their pockets lest I get stuck with a dirty needle...)

Perhaps the 'homeowner' should become better friends with his neighbors so they don't call 911 when they see them...

[Climb01742]

here's my .02 on this incident: trying to boil an incident down to one thing is almost always a distortion. except for the two men involved, who knows for sure what stew of possible elements came together in this moment? macho-ness, as two men butted heads and refused to back down from each other? issues of class, power and privilege? yes, race? were they both just having a bad day and were pissed about other things and this was the trigger? who knows what else? at the very least, this is a potentially complex situation and trying to boil it down to one issue or motivation, or to see it through one lens, doesn't do the situation justice. but who does complex and subtle well these days?

[Kervin]

In 82' I lived in San Diego. 6am each morning, I did my daily ride from Lemon Grove to the Naval training base, which is about 14 miles. One morning at my half way mark, I notice there is a car behind me for a while. I look back and it is a police car with a flashing light on. I figured he just wanted to get by (a little odd since there is almost no traffic), so I pulled into a parking lot. The cop comes up to me and asks why I was riding so fast. Then he tells me to show him my ID! I pulled it out of my backpack and ask him why he pulled me over. "There's been a robbery in the area and you fit the description." I guess that means black, because I'm wearing a jersey, wool cycling shorts and cleated shoes. He held me there for about 20 minutes while he "checked out" my ID. Like an earlier post said, it didn't hit me what went on until later on.

[allegretto]

Police protocol requires the officer to provide his name and badge number.

Is the officer safer because he arrests an unarmed, nonviolent, irate man in his own home? He is not.

The officer may not be a racist, but he does sound like a bully.

now police protocol requires that an officer first give his name and badge? when was that rule invented? never heard that one. his job, upon arrival at the scene of a possible felony in progress is to survey, and if possible take control of the situation. failing that possibility, to control the area and await back up.

race has nothing to do with it.

as someone else has said, if i'm caught breaking into my house or car by the police i co-operate first. "yes, officer, it is my car, let me show you some ID". the officer in question did not want to enter the closed quarters where it was two on one in a small space. that's not just protocol, that's survival!

and don't for a heartbeat say Gates isn't a race-baiter till you've read some of the slop that passes for "scholarship" he has uttered.

it's really quite curious that a man with the privilege and apparent status as a tenured professor carries such a chip on his shoulder.

if a Hispanic or Afro-American cop would have done the same to white men, would it have risen to this? would you support that it was harassment?

[gdw]

I'm pretty disappointed with the President. His answer was based upon opinion and not fact. As a lawyer and chief executive he should have been more diplomatic but the race issue plays well with his supporters and certainly drew the attention away from a pretty lame press conference.

Does anyone else feel that the question was planted?

[Louis]

One of these d&%$!bags holds his keys out to me like I'm some sort of valet.

You should have just taken the keys and said "Thanks, mine's in the shop and I could use a nice set of wheels..."

[SamIAm]

Link to police report:

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/07/23/0498.001.pdf

Gates was asking for it and got it. I normally come down against the police as I think that an inordinate number of them do have a predisposition for this sort of behavior, but my gut tells me different this time.

A few years ago, I arrived at my office at 4:30 A.M and didn't get the alarm turned off in time. I triied proactively calling the police, but was unsuccessful. I waited for them outside the building, but when nobody responded within 20 minutes or so, I went to my office and got to work.

As I went around the corner to the breakroom for some much needed coffee, there were two officers with guns drawn telling me to lay down with my hands behind my back. Even though I owned the building, I lay down and put my hands behind my back while calmly explaining who I was. They put their guns away and demanded ID. I provided it. They checked it out while we had a cup of coffee. They apologized, but it wasn't necessary. I thanked them for coming and we parted ways.

I have no doubt that Gates encounter could have had the same outcome.

[paczki]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/24/AR2009072401056.html?hpid=topnews

[SamIAm]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/24/AR2009072401056.html?hpid=topnews

Clipped:

Obama: "I could've calibrated those words differently"

Now don't go and beat yourself up too much.

[Dekonick]

+1.

First, to label H. L. Gates as a "race-baiter" is really disgusting.

Second, none of us were there, so all we have are words v. words.

Third, I have no idea if Crowley is a good cop or not, but from the accounts so far (yes, I wasn't there) it is very difficult to tell how much he tried to defuse the situation, which is part of his job.
Even if Gates is guilty of reacting in a "non-calm" manner, did Crowley escalate the situation by raising the ante? Not good.

If Harvard Law Prof. Alan Dershowitz had acted like Gates purportedly did, would the response have been the same?

Yes - anyone who acted like Gates did would probably have ended up in a cell that day. Crowley appears to be a 'good cop' with a 'good reputation.'

It is easy to blame the police - but given they may not go home after any shift perhaps you should give them some slack. I am sure there are cops who are bullies - in fact I know a couple... but they are bullies without agenda. If you give them a hard time, you get it back. Believe me - just because you are a Harvard prof, MD, JD, PhD, whatever - doesn't mean you do not pose a risk to a responding police officer. Why does everything have to be race related? What I gather from this is a situation where a police officer is responding to a reported crime in progress. He is met with verbal hostility - and the PD reaction is to protect himself. Silver bracelets and a ride in a car. I gurantee it would not have had the same outcome if said prof. had responded politely and explained he was the home owner. Alas, he chose to acost the officer verbally and - well... the obvious outcome.

Think about it - If all cops were really nice, soft, easy going, would you want them protecting you from criminals? They are trained (correctly) to view everyone as a hazard until proven otherwise.

Rant over - I need to ride. Demmit!