OT: We Choose the Moon.

[johnnymossville]

http://www.wechoosethemoon.org/

Interesting site for those interested in Space, Nasa, etc,... Enjoy!

[eddief]

but why don't we choose the USA?

why don't we pave some roads here and make it so our educational system is the best in the world...before farting away money someplace else.

think of the great country we could have if we focused on our land mass and the 300 million of us living on it.

only $18 billion for 2010:

http://www.nasa.gov/news/budget/index.html

40 years ago today we landed on the moon, and things have gone to heck in a handbasket.

[Joellogicman]

but why don't we pave some roads here and make it so our educational system is the best in the world...before farting away money someplace else.

think of the great country we could have if we focused on our land mass and the 300 million of us living on it.

40 years ago today we landed on the moon, and things have gone to heck in a handbasket.

Seems to me the government finds so many ways to waste money on (take your pick): weapons programs the Pentagon does not want, agricultural subsidies, giving away timber and mineral rights at 19th century prices, direct and indirect payments for professional and college sports stadiums, funding for new highways encouraging sprawl while letting existing urban and suburban infrastructure to fall apart, etc. Yet no one seems to equate this spending with not helping the children.

The space program is about bettering humanity. It is about expanding our knowledge base. The intellectual and tangible opportunities in space are limitless. Frankly, I would just as soon pull all the U.S. troops out of South Korea and Iraq than squeeze the space program.

[eddief]

was not gonna go on anti war rant, but military industrial complex has us completely by the gonads.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm
better: http://www.globalissues.org/article/75/world-military-spending

■Maintains a highly trained fighting force of 2.2 million soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines;

■Recruits, trains and equips 65,000 additional active duty soldiers and 27,000 additional Marines over five years;

■Provides pay increases of 3.4 percent for military members, improves benefits for the all-volunteer force, and increases pay 2.9 percent for the civilian workforce;

■Provides world-class health care for 9.2 million eligible Service members, families, and retirees;

■Procures and maintains an arsenal of the world’s most advanced weapon systems;

■Improves warfighting capabilities and invests in science and technology to maintain U.S. advantage over the Nation’s enemies;

■Maintains 545,000 facilities at 5,300 sites in the U.S. and around the globe; and

■Maintains vital intelligence capabilities

[cmg]

was not gonna go on anti war rant, but military industrial complex has us completely by the gonads.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm
better: http://www.globalissues.org/article/75/world-military-spending

■Maintains a highly trained fighting force of 2.2 million soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines;

■Recruits, trains and equips 65,000 additional active duty soldiers and 27,000 additional Marines over five years;

■Provides pay increases of 3.4 percent for military members, improves benefits for the all-volunteer force, and increases pay 2.9 percent for the civilian workforce;

■Provides world-class health care for 9.2 million eligible Service members, families, and retirees;

■Procures and maintains an arsenal of the world’s most advanced weapon systems;

■Improves warfighting capabilities and invests in science and technology to maintain U.S. advantage over the Nation’s enemies;

■Maintains 545,000 facilities at 5,300 sites in the U.S. and around the globe; and

■Maintains vital intelligence capabilities


what we've created is another welfare system.....

[sg8357]

but why don't we choose the USA?

why don't we pave some roads here and make it so our educational system is the best in the world...before farting away money someplace else.

Because in a thousand years people sitting by the fire will be telling stories
of Gilgamesh and Armstrong.

Scott G.

[avalonracing]

was not gonna go on anti war rant, but military industrial complex has us completely by the gonads.


Dude... Why do you hate America? :D

[Ozz]

but why don't we choose the USA?

why don't we ... make it so our educational system is the best in the world...before farting away money someplace else.
....
dude....NASA is the brass ring.....the projects inspire. What's the point of learning to be a rocket scientist if there is nowhere to go? Space travel involves many scientific disciplines...there is something for everyone to contribute. Maybe the money gets pissed away ineffciently, but it's darn cool stuff they do.

Besides, without NASA, we would not have TANG.

:beer:

[rwsaunders]

was not gonna go on anti war rant, but military industrial complex has us completely by the gonads.


The Congress and the Senate seem to put a good squeeze on me these days.

[HSG Racer]

but why don't we choose the USA?

why don't we pave some roads here and make it so our educational system is the best in the world...before farting away money someplace else.

think of the great country we could have if we focused on our land mass and the 300 million of us living on it.

only $18 billion for 2010:

http://www.nasa.gov/news/budget/index.html

40 years ago today we landed on the moon, and things have gone to heck in a handbasket.

Well put! If there is any evidence that NASA spending is in any way paying off dividends then I would be all for it. But, the research and development is really subpar. The best R&D in the area of aerospace and astronomy is being done in private industry, research labs and universities. NASA produces nothing tangible other than to create engineering public works programs that have no real benefit.

There are many out there who actually believe that NASA is at the cutting edge of technology but most of their stuff is off the shelf and what they do develop is mostly useless. I wish it were different but NASA has been a huge disappointment over the years when it comes to producing results.

:cool:

[saab2000]

I wish it were different but NASA has been a huge disappointment over the years when it comes to producing results.



NASA has been the inspiration for millions who have broken the surly bonds. Seriously. As much as I wanted to win the Tour de France or captain an airliner across the Atlantic, I would rather have commanded a Space Shuttle mission. At least I command my little shuttle.

There are many things we waste money on. Manned spaceflight is not one of them IMHO. :no:

[JeffS]

but why don't we choose the USA?

why don't we pave some roads here and make it so our educational system is the best in the world...before farting away money someplace else.

Yea... more paved roads would solve ALL of our problems. :rolleyes:

[eddief]

not MORE paved roads, just smooth the crappy ones we already have.


Yea... more paved roads would solve ALL of our problems. :rolleyes:

[Dekonick]

Well put! If there is any evidence that NASA spending is in any way paying off dividends then I would be all for it. But, the research and development is really subpar. The best R&D in the area of aerospace and astronomy is being done in private industry, research labs and universities. NASA produces nothing tangible other than to create engineering public works programs that have no real benefit.

There are many out there who actually believe that NASA is at the cutting edge of technology but most of their stuff is off the shelf and what they do develop is mostly useless. I wish it were different but NASA has been a huge disappointment over the years when it comes to producing results.

:cool:

You are correct in many ways but look at what it does for little kids. Future engineers aren't inspired by the science of working in a technology park off of an interstate in a cold sterile lab. They are inspired thinking about man reaching for the stars - think of NASA as a big science advertising company where projects can be pursued for more than just gaining the allmighty buck.

If it weren't for NASA, defense technology development, and some other government spending you might not have polarized glasses, kevlar, tyvek, computers, etc...

until the past 30 or so years, nobody would research any of this - if there were no federal dollars to encourage and support them.

GPS - Millitary development. I love my garmen bike computer.
Internet - ummm... mostly millitary aside from a few university nerds sending messages back and forth...
Jets, rocket technology, etc...

Small companies may well be on the cutting edge but without big bucks all of the best ideas and technologies will amount to less than if they are combined in a big dollar dream - Space research DOES benefit us all. Small companies don't like to share ideas - they want to keep them to themselves to make money.

AND - like it or not - you better carry a big stick or someone will walk all over you. I would rather have a big stick and not need to use it. I also want our kids to dream about space - after all there sure is a LOT of it to dream about.

I do agree that today many private firms and universities are doing the bulk of the research today - but the future needs our children to have an interest in science for science's sake.

:)

[eddief]

maybe we lost control of our stick relative to the other "richard" waggers on the planet.

Rank Country Spending ($ b.) World Share (%)
— World Total 1464.0 100
1 United States 607.0 41.5
2 China 84.9 5.8
3 France 65.7 4.5
4 United Kingdom 65.3 4.5
5 Russian Federation 58.6 4.0
6 Germany 46.8 3.2
7 Japan 46.3 3.2
8 Italy 40.6 2.8
9 Saudi Arabia 38.2 2.6
10 India 30.0 2.1

[allegretto]

yes, i agree, keep the money here

ADFC
WIC
CHIP's

and all the other alphabet soup. that's really making America great!!!

stop wasting money on silly R&D and defense, let's produce ever larger generations of people who think the Gov. owes them a cradle-to-grave living.

yeah... that's the ticket. maybe with what's left over we can make life better for illegal aliens and displaced terrorists.


WOW, what a concept! why haven't i thought of that...

[JanG]

First of all, I think the web site itself is great. I have been following this since "launch" yesterday.

As a kid (and nerd) growing up in the '60s, all I wanted to be was one of those guys with a white shirt and skinny black tie in front of a console (I already had the glasses). I would regularly write letters addressed to "NASA" and -miracle of miracles - I received large envelopes stuffed with mission debriefing documents and posters. My first real watch, given to me by my dad, was a Speedmaster. All of this was certainly an influence on my eventual Ph.D. from MIT.

I think that it is important to distinguish the role of NASA during this time, the "Space Race", from what it has become now. In retrospect, was it worth up to 3% of GDP? I'm not sure, but it certainly was consistent with the mainstream zeitgeist and it influenced a generation of wannabee rocket scientists.

Today, I think NASA does a tremendous job with the small fraction of their budget that is not allocated to manned space flight. I believe that things like the Mars rovers (how cool is it to land a craft on a planet by dropping it like a beach ball and letting it bounce to a target ) and the Hubble are well worth their cost, which is relatively low. However, the persistent interest in manned space flight is, in my opinion, misguided and a waste of resources.

[allegretto]

First of all, I think the web site itself is great. I have been following this since "launch" yesterday.

As a kid (and nerd) growing up in the '60s, all I wanted to be was one of those guys with a white shirt and skinny black tie in front of a console (I already had the glasses). I would regularly write letters addressed to "NASA" and -miracle of miracles - I received large envelopes stuffed with mission debriefing documents and posters. My first real watch, given to me by my dad, was a Speedmaster. All of this was certainly an influence on my eventual Ph.D. from MIT.

I think that it is important to distinguish the role of NASA during this time, the "Space Race", from what it has become now. In retrospect, was it worth up to 3% of GDP? I'm not sure, but it certainly was consistent with the mainstream zeitgeist and it influenced a generation of wannabee rocket scientists.

Today, I think NASA does a tremendous job with the small fraction of their budget that is not allocated to manned space flight. I believe that things like the Mars rovers (how cool is it to land a craft on a planet by dropping it like a beach ball and letting it bounce to a target ) and the Hubble are well worth their cost, which is relatively low. However, the persistent interest in manned space flight is, in my opinion, misguided and a waste of resources.


could not agree more!

bet you still wear the "Speedy".

Physics or Engineering Brass Rat?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . price, exactly, can you put on inspiration? On dreams? What is it worth to inspire people to "shoot for the moon" instead of looking down at the ground or hiding under a rock?

The total NASA budget--particularly the portion spent on pure research missions--is a miniscule, microscopic percentage of the total government budget. If you're looking for waste, there are a hundred different places you could find far, FAR more "waste" than the whole NASA budget.

BBD

[Dekonick]

. . . price, exactly, can you put on inspiration? On dreams? What is it worth to inspire people to "shoot for the moon" instead of looking down at the ground or hiding under a rock?

The total NASA budget--particularly the portion spent on pure research missions--is a miniscule, microscopic percentage of the total government budget. If you're looking for waste, there are a hundred different places you could find far, FAR more "waste" than the whole NASA budget.

BBD

Yup!

[Joellogicman]

Well put! If there is any evidence that NASA spending is in any way paying off dividends then I would be all for it. But, the research and development is really subpar. The best R&D in the area of aerospace and astronomy is being done in private industry, research labs and universities. NASA produces nothing tangible other than to create engineering public works programs that have no real benefit.

There are many out there who actually believe that NASA is at the cutting edge of technology but most of their stuff is off the shelf and what they do develop is mostly useless. I wish it were different but NASA has been a huge disappointment over the years when it comes to producing results.

:cool:

NASA may well lag private industry in the applied sciences.

However, NASA's contributions to pure science is incalculably ahead of whatever private industry may have done. The unmanned space and planetary probes, the telescopes, the multitude of experiments conducted in the space lab and on the shuttles have advanced our understanding in all areas of cosmology, physics, planetary formation, even biology.

Any engineer, no matter how personally profit minded, will admit it is the advances in pure science that drives advances in applied. I fail to see how anyone can be disappointed in all we have learned through the space program. Voyager may not have bought anyone a second home on Nantucket, but it sure as heck has paid dividends to the human race.

[Karin Kirk]

I agree with Jan and Joel, NASA has made huge contributions to science and technology. I'll add one more - which are all their instruments that are pointed back at our own planet. NASA does substantial research and data collection about our very own Earth, using a wide array of satellites and remote sensing tools. If you like Google Earth, thank NASA for much of that imagery.

[Peter P.]

While I tend to agree that the space program is a waste of taxpayer dollars, I DO see the benefit of it.

In designing, constructing, operating, and maintaining such a system, NASA and it's subcontractors develop new products and technologies to create solutions to problems. These solutions invariably trickle down to things which improve our everyday lives.

I'm sure we could do just as well to cut out the middleman (the space program) and just work on inventing solutions, but right now it's all we've got and the juggernaut of NASA isn't going to be easily dismantled.

In my opinion, going to the moon first was all political propoganda.

[Ozz]

..In my opinion, going to the moon first was all political propoganda.
without a doubt...the dream of a dead president...but still very cool.

:beer:

[RPS]

I don’t doubt advances in science would have taken place regardless of NASA and the Apollo program, but I do think it would have taken much longer in many fields because otherwise-insignificant things that were crucial to land on the moon would have been difficult to justify if treated as stand-alone decisions. I personally view it (albeit selfishly) as a great pursuit that was incredibly successful in the big scheme of life because if not for the Apollo program many advances in medical fields would have not been available when I needed them – modern knee surgery in order to continue a normal life (which includes unimpaired cycling and running), or more recently the high-tech medical imaging equipment used to help my sight. I know there is and has been a real price to these advances, but to me walking, cycling, and seeing seem fairly priceless. Again, I know I'm being selfish.

Knowing what I know today, I’d happily pay my share of taxes for the Apollo program again.

[RPS]

40 years may seem like ancient history, yet for those of us who are starting to get up there in years some key memories of the Apollo program are hard to forget. My favorite was of course the landing, but Apollo 17 -- the first night launch of a Saturn V rocket -- is also quite memorable for personal reasons.

The landing on the moon was made even more memorable because I was in Hartford, Connecticut (I lived in south Florida) visiting family and remember everyone sitting or standing around a small TV in complete amazement that man had actually landed on the moon; and still quite worried about whether they would ever get back to Earth. In retrospect we know they all made it back, but at the time (following many rockets blowing up upon launch and astronauts accidentally dying in a fire right here on earth) getting back home seemed like anything but a certainty. I think it’s easy to forget the improbability of the whole process at that time given our level of scientific development, so the national pride that came with such incredible success may be hard to recall 40 years later – assuming you were even around.

And like the landing and safe return, I’ll never forget the liftoff of the Apollo 17 Saturn V moon rocket from Kennedy Space Center at 12:33 a.m., December 17, 1972. As the first night launch of a Saturn V rocket, there was extensive news coverage on what to expect when viewing it live from a distance. I was in West Palm Beach at the time and local news reports indicated the light from the launch would be visible if the night remained clear but to expect the equivalent of a match burning at 100 feet. Binoculars were highly recommended.

As it turned out, some scientist-type (or news-type) must have miscalculated the effect of burning that much fuel because 17 lit up the sky enough to be seen before it even cleared the horizon. The brightness from 130 miles away was nothing short of spectacular.

I later saw a night Shuttle launch from Orlando (much closer) but it just didn’t compare IMHO. Whether it was being the first night launch I saw or whether it was actually brighter I don’t know, but Apollo 17 remains unforgettable.