Saddle Height- Your's is Too Low

[dirtdigger88]

I have looked back through this and the old fourm- why do we never argue on saddle height? We go over saddle to bar drop- we have talked about set back- we ever argue what saddle is best- but never saddle height. Why not? So I am starting it right here and right now- Your saddle is too low

Jason

[Sandy]

I don't use a saddle. It saves weight.

Saddleless Sandy

[dirtdigger88]

there are all kinds of "penatrating" jokes I could run with- BUTT I wont

Jason

[Sandy]

Good idea.


:) Saddle Sore Sandy :)

[dirtdigger88]

maybe this will help, Sandy


jason

[Sandy]

Shameful! Simply Shameful!! Downright Dirty!


Shameless Saddleless Sandy

[Dave]

Between the errors that occur with the different methods of measuring cycling inseam, the difference in the total stack height of various shoe and pedal combinations and the difference in the "sit height" of the many available saddle models, two people could claim a 2-3cm difference and actually have the exact same leg angle at the bottom of the stroke.

I measure my cycling inseam by standing bare foot over a bike with a horizontal TT and enough blocking under the wheels to produce saddle-like crotch pressure. I get an 83cm inseam with this method. My saddle height is 71cm, or 12cm less the my inseam which is 1-2cm lower than many people report. I use speedplay pedals with Sidi shoes, which produces a lower stack height than many other combinations, so this could account for 1cm.

My rule of thumb for setting saddle height is to be able to drop my heel 1-2cm below horizontal with my leg locked at the bottom of the stroke. This results in a 10-15 degree bend in the leg when pedaling with my normal foot angle, which isn't too far above horizontal. Riders who prefer a toes-down, heels-up foot position would naturally have a higher saddle.

The advice I hate to see being dispensed is the old "raise your saddle until your hips rock, then lower it just a bit". For those of us with a lot of flexibility, this could be 4-5cm higher than it should be. I made this mistake 10 years ago, continually raising my saddle to the point where it got ridiculous. I had the seat post on the max height line even with a frame that produced a conservative 3cm standover clearance. Eventually my right lower back started hurting and I also found the right leg to be a little shorter than the left. I used a cleat shim for a couple of years, but when I switched to speedplays, I skipped the shim and set my saddle height based on the slightly shorter (maybe 4-5mm) right leg. Never had any problems with this method.

I see a lot of (hopefully) novice riders with overly high saddles who are obviously reaching at the bottom of the stroke and also pedal at much too low a cadence. The too-high saddle seems particularly noticeable on mountain climbs. I see riders pedaling 50-60 rpm and reaching at the bottom of the stroke. I climb at 80-85 rpm with a smooth spin and 100-110 rpm on less demanding terrain.

[Skrawny]

I'm one of those relative newbies blessed with flexibility. I am a spinner, and tend to ride with my toes down. I had a few knee problems in the past (mostly due to running) and was told, "If your knees hurt, raise your saddle; if your back hurts, lower it." I was also told, as you mentioned, to raise it until just before my hips rock. I know just from auditing this forum for a while how simplistic the above comments are. Unfortunately I have not have had a professional fit yet, but I look forward to that when I finally finish saving for my first Serotta in a month or two.

I have been looking at my bike & thinking, "wow, that's a high saddle." Since it is stormy today and I have the day off, maybe I'll follow your recs and see what happens...

[dirtdigger88]

Skrawny- I sorta did this post tounge in cheek but if you are pedaling toes down your saddle IS too high. You want to drop your heel slightly in the down stroke. You always hear to pretend you are scraping mud off of you shoe on the downstroke. I actually start with the Lemond .883 X inseam (taken bare foot feet 12-15 inches apart) and go from there. Lower that saddle before you hurt someone

Jason

[spiderman]

because my wife bought me some nice flat shimano pedals
and i had been using my beefy look pedals from 'years back'...
i switched out the pedals and left the seat alone...
now, the fit seems perfect!
so, i tricked you...
...it used to be too low,
but now it's just right.
...so there...
how's that for the sake of arguement!?!

[flydhest]

Jason,

I gotta disagree, although I know you were being somewhat facetious. Pedalling style is pedalling style up to a point. Some notorious toe-downers include dbrk and his protege Lance Armstrong.

I also want to disagree with what Dave wrote, although I suspect he and I actually agree on this topic. I think the "raise until your hips rock" is as valid as most other starting points. It's going to be wrong for some people, but then other methods will be wrong for other people. Like any other fitting parameter, I think one is ill-advised to use these sorts of prescriptions in a vacuum. You have to start somewhere, and I think most of the general rules do OK, but then one ought to be very cognizant that it is only a starting point. For someone who can't figure it out, a professional fitter is good. I spend a lot of time thinking about my saddle height and can usually feel when it is right.

One of the funny things about the numerical measures is that I just bought a frame from dbrk. I haven't met him, but I recall he's kinda short, like 5'10 or 5'11. I'm 6'2". I am a very flat footed rider, although I don't know my pbh offhand, I'd say it is a touch on the short side for my height, but not much. I was a Division I NCAA hurdler after all. Personal biomechanics can easily account for a centimeter or two.

[dirtdigger88]

fly-

I am going the bet you don't find dbrk frames to be too small at all. after having ridden behind him (see you can go fast on those french bikes) I agree he does ride toes down some what. I have fairly long legs for my height, I am 6' and I have a 36" inseam (91.44cm) I found that on his (dbrk's) bikes the set up as he has it is near perfect for me. I also agree that no formula should be taken as the end all. Going on the .883 formula that I spoke of I should have a saddle height of 80.74 cm- I actuall run a 79.75 cm. I figure that is due to my heal down stroke and my shoe pedal combo. Skrawny is saying his hips are rocking and he is pedaling toes down. No I have not seen him- but I am guessing his saddle is too high

Jason

[Skrawny]

My seat is just below "hip rockin' height" and I have noticed that when I pedal I tend to have my toes pointed down, not that I need to point them to reach the bottom.

But I didn't intend this thread to morph into "let's fit skrawny." I prefer to be a fly on the wall and let the experts debate.

[cinelli]

Your saddle height is fine. It's your legs that need to be adjusted.

[flydhest]

jason,

we seem to be in heated agreement. heh,heh.

I am certain the bike will be dandy, as it is the same size as my Legend, save with a slightly shorter top tube. I can make the Jerk happy and get a longer stem.

Anybody got a 15 cm quill?

[dirtdigger88]

But I didn't intend this thread to morph into "let's fit skrawny." I prefer to be a fly on the wall and let the experts debate.

Naw, come on lets pick on the new guy ;) If you are going to stay you have to post all of your body measurment (well not all- see roys post) and all bike measurement and let us pick it apart. Then again you may choose not to- since none of us really have a clue anyway

Jason

[dirtdigger88]

jason,

we seem to be in heated agreement. heh,heh.


NOOOO- I wanted disagreement-

Jason

[flydhest]

well you can't have it.

. . . . hmmm, wait, that didn't work.

OK, I agree to give you disagreement.

. . . that didn't work either.

[dirtdigger88]

do I win anything for stumping the fly-guy?

jason

[csb]

after much ear chewing these past forum years
by the neofrogfit father of the fingerlakes,
by the curry captain of canandaigua,
i perused the rivendell info, where
it turns out, if my math is correct, which usually it aint so ... cum grano salis
anyway grant of said steel site would have my saddle @ 29.16"
spectrums saddle sits @ 30.75"
thickness of foot interface material accounts for 1.59"?

point ... e re nata

[dirtdigger88]

csb- how many languages do you speak? I see hints of latin and spanish mixed in your posts- maybe you just have some funkey lineage

Jason

[Skrawny]

I'm 5'6" 140lb 32 inch inseam, scorpio
formula comes out to 71.79cm

now for the stupid newbie question: I asume that is the vertical height from floor to top of saddle?

[dirtdigger88]

NOPE- from center of BB to the cupped part of the seat-

Jason

[csb]

i shower daily!

[dirtdigger88]

i shower daily!

ok so that proves you are not french- what else

Jason

[csb]

lapsus linguae?
perhaps you should post on munsons red shorts

[dirtdigger88]

Way ahead of you

jason

[Dave]

Blindly following the .883 times inseam formula isn't a great idea either, particularly since it was developed in the days of toe clips. For me, this formula would suggect a saddle height of over 73cm, and I set mine at 71cm. Once again, part of the discrepancy is due to the much lower pedal & shoe stack heights available today.

Another method, suggested by Zinn is to set the foot level with the leg locked at the bottom of the stroke. For a guy with small feet, this can result in an extreme, forced, heel-ups pedaling position. 1-2cm lower works for me.

[dirtdigger88]

Blindly following the .883 times inseam formula isn't a great idea either, particularly since it was developed in the days of toe clips. For me, this formula would suggect a saddle height of over 73cm, and I set mine at 71cm. Once again, part of the discrepancy is due to the much lower pedal & shoe stack heights available today.

Another method, suggested by Zinn is to set the foot level with the leg locked at the bottom of the stroke. For a guy with small feet, this can result in an extreme, forced, heel-ups pedaling position. 1-2cm lower works for me.

Dave, again if you read my post I never said to blindly follow one or another. I said that they are good starting points- as my saddle height should show- I am not blindly following anything- except maybe csb

[Skrawny]

After all that, turns out seat was 1 cm higher than recommended by the formula. There still seems to be a lot of seatpost showing (3cm away from max), maybe 54cm is too small a frame? More likely, now that I think of it, the top tube is sloped on my bike and I am comparing that to bikes with more classic lines. Anyway, thanks for the help!

[H.Frank Beshear]

I'll get a picture of the Mathais Bareback this summer and post it for you. Dean Mathais is a long time member of our club who had a custom ti frame built without a seatpost. I have ridden with him on multiple century rides and it takes some getting used to riding with him, especially when decides to ride in the gravel for a while or in the ditch. At least he only has to worry about his stem being to short. :rolleyes: Frank

[jerk]

wow, this is the worst thread ever....the you want to know if your saddle height is right? ride your bike. saddle height is not a stagnant thing....early season it's going to be a bit lower than mid season as you haven't limbered up yet and late season it'll creep back down because your body will be all beat to hell. you want a range? measure the angle from your greater trochanter through the back of the knee-cap through the protruding ankle bone and you should be around 145-155 degrees at the bottom of your pedal stroke....if its in this range then your saddle is at the right height...if you're outside this range on the low-end you're sean kelly and if you're outside the range on the high end you're abraham olano....remember for long steady efforts like time trials. triathlons etc....one can tend towards the higher end of range.....for rapid starts and stops where maximum power is needed or where lots of rapid accelerations occur one can tend towards a lower saddle height.....even stranger and something to consider; look at the saddle height of a track pursuiter; very low. great for max power over the short distance but lots of stress on the knees!

[e-RICHIE]

the jerk is no jerk when it comes to bicycle technology.
he knows what for re this fit stuff.

[coylifut]

wow, this is the worst thread ever....the you want to know if your saddle height is right? ride your bike. saddle height is not a stagnant thing....early season it's going to be a bit lower than mid season as you haven't limbered up yet and late season it'll creep back down because your body will be all beat to hell. you want a range? measure the angle from your greater trochanter through the back of the knee-cap through the protruding ankle bone and you should be around 145-155 degrees at the bottom of your pedal stroke....if its in this range then your saddle is at the right height...if you're outside this range on the low-end you're sean kelly and if you're outside the range on the high end you're abraham olano....remember for long steady efforts like time trials. triathlons etc....one can tend towards the higher end of range.....for rapid starts and stops where maximum power is needed or where lots of rapid accelerations occur one can tend towards a lower saddle height.....even stranger and something to consider; look at the saddle height of a track pursuiter; very low. great for max power over the short distance but lots of stress on the knees!

That reminds me. I stumbled across a bio mechanical study done in Spain where they took a gaggle of pro cyclists to study power and pedaling efficiency. Olano was the most efficient of the bunch, but far from the most powerful.

It must be really cold on the left coast, I hope y'all get out to ride soon.

[dirtdigger88]

see I knew the jerk would set us straight- thanks

Jason

[keno]

http://www.analyticcycling.com/PedalOpSeatHeight_Page.html

If you can figure it out, let me know.

keno

[Serotta PETE]

160 stem for sale - - - -

[spiderman]

but do you have a protractor and ruler i could borrow...
now, that comment clinches this thing
as the worst string ever!
...you know, my best friend in the navy
had a great nickname for me
...the kite-flying jerk...
i actually broke his nose learning how to fly a four-line kite!

[keno]

if my comment was the clincher, I'm flattered, if not, I'm disappointed.

BTW, I spent some time in a strip club last night researching the greater trochanter.

keno