Most comfortable wheels?

[tv_vt]

Seems to be a lot of wheel threads lately. Here's another.

I've got a couple of bikes that ride a little stiff. I'd like to build up a wheelset for them that's really comfy. (Let's leave out tires for now.) I'm about 180 and not too hard on my equipment. Live in hilly Vermont, variety of road conditions.

Basic plan is for 32 hole rims, 3x DT Revolution spokes all around, brass nips. Rim maybe a DT RR1.1 or Mavic OP. 9 speed Shimano hubs.

Are there any variations on this I should be considering?

Thanks,

Thom

[joelh]

Glad you asked the question, because I want the same thing. I was thinking White Ind hubs, but wondering if shimano would be just as good.

[Richard]

Why brass? I've had multiple wheelsets built with OP (8 and 9), revolutions and alloy nipples with no problems.

[lavi]

Speed a few minutes on the phone with Joe Young like I did.

Sounds like a wheel "tune" (forgiving or teeth jarring) comes from the spokes and the appropriate tension they are given. You could get very different ride out of the exact same component congifurations and spoke lacing with different tensions. I could be wrong though. This is just what I've been gleaning as I've been lurking.

[maunahaole]

Brass does better in environments where corrosion can be a problem (do they use road salt in VT?) Alloy and salt exposure is really a bad mix. Personally, I have had alloy nipples break on me, I prefer brass for this reason as well. This is a topic as polarizing as chain lube.

[Likes2ridefar]

Spinergy claims their spokes smooth out the ride some. I've not ridden them so can't comment, but just passing on what I've read.

Topolino is another that claims their wheels are excellent at dampening. I actually had a pair, but never got around to using them. They were very light as claimed.

My daily wheels are custom wheels - dt swiss 240s hubs, alloy nipples all around besides the rear drive side being brass, 20F radial 24R 2x laced to Kinlin 27mm rims that have veloplugs instead of rim strips. sub 1500 grams, excellent riding wheels for my 165lb body.

[djg21]

Why brass? I've had multiple wheelsets built with OP (8 and 9), revolutions and alloy nipples with no problems.

The weight savings is marginal and alloy nipples can crack and are easier to strip and round off.

[tv_vt]

Do they use road salt in Vermont? Got a good laugh out of that one :)

I just like the simplicity of brass nipples. Helps with longevity, not a big deal with weight. I weigh close to 180 POUNDS, so am not too worried about a few grams there.

Regarding spoke tension, so maybe tell my wheelbuilder (who may be either Joe Young or Rich Sawris at Wheelbuilder) that I want it comfy?

Don't think hubs have any bearing (sorry) on comfort, except when the pawls don't work...

T

[maunahaole]

One of the really experienced wheelbuilders could probably help you with an answer on this better than I can, but hubs probably wont make that much of a difference. The biggest variables there will be flange width and flange height. High flange = shorter spoke, making it more rigid - but probably better thought of as having less supple, as the spokes give some shock absorption. Wider flange = longer spoke, etc...someone who knows more should pipe in to clarify and correct me on this.

[woolly]

Most comfortable wheels? Ones with big, cushy, high-volume tires mounted. ;)

[Louis]

Most comfortable wheels? Ones with big, cushy, high-volume tires mounted. ;)


Like this? :p

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=52983&stc=1

[bigman]

Wolly gets it. Try some older pro race 25's at about 95psi, ner rode the current version in 25 so no recommendation on them.

[Nathanrtaylor]

Seems to me the biggest reason to get alloy nipples over brass is so you can color coordinate them with something.

[jimp1234]

Interesting topic, and one I've been curious about myself. Here's my suppositions (which could be wrong, so please chime in if you have a different opinion). And I'm going to leave a discussion of tires alone, though of course they can make a big difference as to ride comfort. First of all, for all around road wheels 32 hole 3X is probably going to offer the most comfortable ride. Maybe someone doing a lot of rando would say 36 hole? (I'm assuming these are still available) and though very uncommon these days maybe 4X. The one problem with bullet proof 32 3X with DT's or Open Pro box rims is they don't look as sexy or cool as 24 hole radials. I would agree that the type of hub is not relevant to how comfortable the ride is, but flange height is a different story. My understanding is that high flange give a stiffer ride(which translates to less comfort) versus low flange. For instance, track hubs are (or were) always high flange versus road hubs which were low flange. As far as spokes, double butted were considered more comfortable than straight gauge. As far as "tuning the wheel", its an interesting idea but I'd be worried about making the wheel less reliable. Now, could a lighter rider have the wheels "tuned" differently than a heavier rider? Maybe. As I said, I'd be happy to hear some differing opinions.

[ckamp]

I have some old 27 1/4's wheels :rolleyes:

[labratmatt]

By far the most comfy wheels I've been on are my set of backup wheels:

32 spoke Ultegra 6600 hubs
32 spoke DT Swiss R1.1 rims
Standard 3 cross lacing
DT Swiss 14/15/14 double butted spokes
brass nips
23mm Vittoria Rubino Pro tires

These wheels were built by Excel (so, I assume they're nothing special) and they ride so well. I think the great ride quality comes from the double butted spokes and the normal (not high) tension on the spokes.

[lavi]

From what Joe Young said, with my size 190 lbs, the tension would be higher than for a lighter rider with the number of spokes and lacing pattern remaining the same. Maybe I misunderstood him.

We need a master wheelbuilder to chime in, anytime. :)

[merckx]

Get some Nemesis or NOS GP4s. You won't be disapointed. Really.

[Pete Serotta]

from Joe Young naturally :)

[Dekonick]

Seems to be a lot of wheel threads lately. Here's another.

I've got a couple of bikes that ride a little stiff. I'd like to build up a wheelset for them that's really comfy. (Let's leave out tires for now.) I'm about 180 and not too hard on my equipment. Live in hilly Vermont, variety of road conditions.

Basic plan is for 32 hole rims, 3x DT Revolution spokes all around, brass nips. Rim maybe a DT RR1.1 or Mavic OP. 9 speed Shimano hubs.

Are there any variations on this I should be considering?

Thanks,

Thom

Velocity rims :)

just another option. I like the oc rear :)

[PacNW2Ford]

How about:

Shimano Dura-Ace hubs
32-3x DT Swiss Supercomp spokes with brass nipples
HED Bastogne rims
Grand Bois Cerf 28c tires

Smoooooothhhhhh...

[Dekonick]

I will also add that I primarily use 32x 3x with record or chorus hubs and or OP or velocity rims - they are comfy and I like knowing I won't esperience what the editor of Velo News did when his spokes self destructed.

:)

[tv_vt]

Can you buy the Bastogne C2 rims separately? Thought they only came as part of the whole wheelset. Same for the Ardennes rim (scandium)? Actually, these wheelsets would be on my list to test ride for comfort quality, along with some handbuilts. Also hear the DuraAce wheels 7850 tubeless clinchers are quite comfortable, but haven't tried them.

T

[SoCalSteve]

I seriously have to laugh in reading all these postings regarding alloy rims...

Here, dont take my word for it: Read this from Jack Brunk's website (http://www.ultraendure.com/cycleblog/)

It is 110% true what he says about never wanting to ride alloy rims again.

You want comfort, go carbon rims (not wheels that have carbon fairings-like the Mavic Cosmic Carbone)...All carbon rims, you will never want to ride an alloy rimmed wheelset again.

Just sayin'

Steve

PS: If you are concerned about low spoke count, Edge makes all carbon rims up to 28 hole...They recommended 20/24's for my set up at 220 lbs. And, the Reynolds DV46C UL's dont have a rider weight limit (at 20/24).

[Climb01742]

i have these (with pro race 3 25s) and they are tres comfy:

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/road-bikes/product-components/2009-shimano-dura-ace-wh-7850-24mm-carbon-clincher-wheelset-4597.323.0.html

[PacNW2Ford]

Can you buy the Bastogne C2 rims separately? Thought they only came as part of the whole wheelset. Same for the Ardennes rim (scandium)? Actually, these wheelsets would be on my list to test ride for comfort quality, along with some handbuilts. Also hear the DuraAce wheels 7850 tubeless clinchers are quite comfortable, but haven't tried them.

T

Yes you can. Both the Bastogne C2 and Ardennes C2 rims are available, but be prepared for a little sticker shock, especially on the scandiums. Still, I got what I wanted, a reasonably light, wide rim with D-A hubs and great spokes handbuilt for ~$700.

[lavi]

Here's what I have now, among others:
- Open Pros with Record hubs, 32 drill/3 cross. I love these wheels. They are smooth beyond belief. However these were mass produced.
- DA 7800 wheels. No matter how folks hate on the nipples in the center and other features, don't believe it. I've had these wheels for 4 years. Lots of miles, lots of races. Still straight as an arrow and very smooth. I really like them.
- Ksyrium SSC Sl's. Great wheels. Nothing bad to say about them except I did pull a spoke through on the drive side whilst climbing once. I don't rocket up climbs, but I can lay down some watts when my CERA hits. Now I worry about popping another spoke in race while trying to place in the top 30 for a sprint. :crap: Seriously, I worry about another one letting go maybe due to their age. If I had a new set, I wouldn't worry one iota.

SOOOOO...instead of going with some new Ksyriums or DA 7850s (which I think are kicking and have heard nothing but how killer they are), I decided to go with a wheelset that was somewhat ageless and was actually built with my size and riding type in mind.

So I've had some experience with great mass produced wheels. What I haven't tried are carbon wheels yet. I do believe they'd be smooth and all that. I just don't want to mess with have to change pads with using different wheels for different uses. I guess what I learned with the wheels I've had is that, smoothness and longevity are really what I'm looking for. I don't want to worry about popping a spoke when I'm literally in the middle of nowhere. I may someday getting a kickin' set of deep carbon somethings for racing/posing. However, that'll be because of vanity. Not because I actually believe they make me faster or ride all that better.

I don't mind road buzz. I ride steel! :beer:

All that said, some Edge tubulars give me a tingle in my special purpose. Now if I could just get some shop to give me the wheels and glue them for me.

[GregL]

I'll await the flames, but I think all this talk of "comfy" wheels is silly. I've ridden everything from tandem "tank" 48 spoke wheels to original Spinergy wheels. I've ridden handbuilts and factory builts. Comfort is not about the wheels, it's about the tires. Want more comfort - get a wider tire with more air volume. Ride those fatter tires at a lower pressure. If that isn't enough, get thicker bar tape and a cushier saddle. You'll find all the comfort you want.

Regards,
Greg

[lavi]

Greg,

I agree with you. However, the OP was attempting to leave tires out of the equation. That would make the choices grow crazy exponential.

I have a set of Jack Brown (width 33.333333). Crazy fat and super cush. They just won't fit on my race bike. For racin' and spirited riding, I like "normal" width race tire.

I still think the rim composition does have an effect though.

[dekindy]

Shimano Dura-Ace 7850SL road tubeless and Fusion tubeless tires. How can you leave tires out of the equation? They are more important than the wheels, aren't they, or at least as important.

[rockdude]

I seriously have to laugh in reading all these postings regarding alloy rims...

Here, dont take my word for it: Read this from Jack Brunk's website (http://www.ultraendure.com/cycleblog/)

It is 110% true what he says about never wanting to ride alloy rims again.

You want comfort, go carbon rims (not wheels that have carbon fairings-like the Mavic Cosmic Carbone)...All carbon rims, you will never want to ride an alloy rimmed wheelset again.

Just sayin'

Steve

PS: If you are concerned about low spoke count, Edge makes all carbon rims up to 28 hole...They recommended 20/24's for my set up at 220 lbs. And, the Reynolds DV46C UL's dont have a rider weight limit (at 20/24).


If Steve and Jack say so, it must be. Jack has had some nice things to say about the Carbonsport lightweight Obermeyers.

For AL wheels, I love my Campy Neutrons....

[cdn_bacon]

I would honestly have to say the Spinergy Stealth PBO clinchers are my comfiest. Those spokes absorb a whole ton as well as shave time off my commute.

A bit on the blingy side, but quite honestly I would never purchase another wheelset.

AND spinergy spokes are 5$ each to replace if you need to.

Thanks again guylimey for these... I loves them.

[GregL]

I guess my engineering background makes me want to decouple the choice of tires and wheels - although I admit it is a difficult task depending on your goals. A racer should, budget permitting, choose the tire/wheel combination that gives them the best advantage (usually most aerodynamic). If you are a recreational rider using clinchers, I will submit that you can make the wheel and tire choices somewhat independently (provided that the tire you want to use will fit on your wheel of choice). I like to make it simple: low cost, reliability, light weight - choose which two you want and the options get much easier to pick from. For comfort, the tire will make the most difference, not the wheel.

Regards,
Greg

[Ray]

I guess my engineering background makes me want to decouple the choice of tires and wheels - although I admit it is a difficult task depending on your goals. A racer should, budget permitting, choose the tire/wheel combination that gives them the best advantage (usually most aerodynamic). If you are a recreational rider using clinchers, I will submit that you can make the wheel and tire choices somewhat independently (provided that the tire you want to use will fit on your wheel of choice). I like to make it simple: low cost, reliability, light weight - choose which two you want and the options get much easier to pick from. For comfort, the tire will make the most difference, not the wheel.

Regards,
Greg
I think you CAN decouple tires from wheels (don't try it while riding!), but at a certain point, it becomes sort of silly. With rock hard 20mm tires, any difference in the wheel will be felt the most. With softer 25mm tires, MUCH less so if at all, and by the time you get up to 28mm + tires at 85 psi or so, you simply aren't going to be able to tell a comfort difference from a rim/wheel. That's my experience anyway.

-Ray

[Ligero]

I could get flamed for this but here goes.

Tension does not make a wheel any stiffer or softer, so "tuning" the wheel does not do anything. The reason high spoke count wheels seem to ride softer then low spoke count wheels is because of the mass of the wheels. When you hit a bump the impact is traveling through the wheel as vibrations. If you have 32 spokes those vibrations have to travel over more distance to get to the frame and good amount of the vibration will be dissipated compared to the same vibrations transmitted through 20 spokes.

The same thing happens with curved seat stays. Most of them (the DKS is not on that list) do not flex vertically. The stays are longer because of all of the curves and the vibration has to travel a further distance then they would on a straight stay. The longer distance absorbs more of the vibration.

Yes you can. Both the Bastogne C2 and Ardennes C2 rims are available, but be prepared for a little sticker shock, especially on the scandiums. Still, I got what I wanted, a reasonably light, wide rim with D-A hubs and great spokes handbuilt for ~$700.

Hed is no longer selling the scandium rims separately, they told me they want to keep them exclusive for a while. I was really surprised when they told me the price, the Bastonges are $125 a rim!!

[SoCalSteve]

If Steve and Jack say so, it must be. Jack has had some nice things to say about the Carbonsport lightweight Obermeyers.

For AL wheels, I love my Campy Neutrons....

He is much more impressed with the cost to quality value of Edge rims...

They are truly something to look at if you want to jump into the "all carbon rim" waters.

Just sayin'

Steve

[paczki]

This carbon rims are more comfortable than aluminum rims is massively overstated. It all depends on what you want wheels for, what the roads you ride are like, etc. My most comfortable pair of wheels are Ambrosio rims and Phil hubs, 32 spokes. And I ride on really crappy roads.

[fiamme red]

This carbon rims are more comfortable than aluminum rims is massively overstated.Mr. Brunk drew that sweeping conclusion simply because he tried Shamals, and didn't like them. :confused:

Quoted from his blog:

I’ve been using carbon deep dish wheels over the last 5-6 years. Recently I’ve tested a new set of aluminum Campy Shamal tubular wheels. Man I can’t believe how much road vibration I felt vs my carbon wheels. I tested both sets of wheels on my Colnago Strada scandium frame with Campy record gruppo, Star carbon fork and Reynolds Ouzo Pro 31.8 carbon handlebars. I rode the same course of almost 50 miles with the carbon set being first followed by the aluminum wheels.

Findings:

Carbon wheels mute a ton of road vibrations that the aluminum one can’t.

Aluminum wheels are harsher feeling on mild to moderate crappy roads.

Tire pressure didn’t help with softening the ride quality on the aluminum wheels.

Don’t ride carbon wheels if you are thinking of changing wheels. You’ll never go back to aluminum wheels. Lighter, better ride quality but more expensive is the only downside. I’ve hung the shamals in the garage.

[paczki]

Mr. Brunk drew that sweeping conclusion simply because he tried Shamals, and didn't like them. :confused:

Quoted from his blog:

I’ve been using carbon deep dish wheels over the last 5-6 years. Recently I’ve tested a new set of aluminum Campy Shamal tubular wheels. Man I can’t believe how much road vibration I felt vs my carbon wheels. I tested both sets of wheels on my Colnago Strada scandium frame with Campy record gruppo, Star carbon fork and Reynolds Ouzo Pro 31.8 carbon handlebars. I rode the same course of almost 50 miles with the carbon set being first followed by the aluminum wheels.

Findings:

Carbon wheels mute a ton of road vibrations that the aluminum one can’t.

Aluminum wheels are harsher feeling on mild to moderate crappy roads.

Tire pressure didn’t help with softening the ride quality on the aluminum wheels.

Don’t ride carbon wheels if you are thinking of changing wheels. You’ll never go back to aluminum wheels. Lighter, better ride quality but more expensive is the only downside. I’ve hung the shamals in the garage.

In New England road vibration is a plus. We call it "le soigneur". Giant snapping turtle nests in the roads are the problem.

[Jack Brunk]

Steve is correct. Find yourself a good wheel builder, a set of Edge rims, really nice hubs and spokes and you'll never look back at an aluminum rim in the same light. For around 2k it will make a huge impact on the overall quality of your bike.

[paczki]

Steve is correct. Find yourself a good wheel builder, a set of Edge rims, really nice hubs and spokes and you'll never look back at an aluminum rim in the same light. For around 2k it will make a huge impact on the overall quality of your bike.

I've owned and own quite a few carbon rims. I suggest you come ride a bit on our roads! Having ridden on yours though, I can't recommend them.
That said I like my carbon rims -- I liked the Edge wheels and I like the wheels I have now. But I don't like taking them to Lincoln..

[fiamme red]

Nothing like a set of SQUARE wheels to smooth out those really big bumps. :banana:

[SoCalSteve]

I've owned and own quite a few carbon rims. I suggest you come ride a bit on our roads! Having ridden on yours though, I can't recommend them.That said I like my carbon rims -- I liked the Edge wheels and I like the wheels I have now. But I don't like taking them to Lincoln..

What does this mean?

Just askin'

Steve

[paczki]

What does this mean?

Just askin'

Steve

Having spent quite a lovely time riding in San Diego and other parts of Cali. Glorious roads.

Our roads don't look like this:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=673153&postcount=17

They look like this:

[Likes2ridefar]

I've by no means ridden every carbon wheel out there, but I really have to say I can't tell any difference from a carbon wheel vs my al rimmed wheels.

I ride reynolds dv66T, dv46C and also owned some reynolds assaults last year. They sound neater, especially the dv66T, but they don't feel more comfortable to me after 100 miles.

a 25c tire vs a 23c tire, same brand, is something I can actually feel on the road. And not just comfort. The 25c feels more stable on choppy roads descending at 50mph!

[Ray]

For what little its worth (and I'm sure its damn little!), I have recently acquired two sets of tubeless wheels. One is aluminum rims - the other is carbon rims with an aluminum braking surface bonded on - but the structure of the rim is all carbon. Given the low pressures that I can run tubeless, both are pretty smooth. But the alu are a bit smoother and 'softer' feeling than the carbon, which are very stiff feeling. The carbon SOUNDS more muted on rough roads. But the alu FEELS more muted. I really like both sets, but there is a difference I can perceive. Wouldn't say one is better, but one is slightly softer feeling and its not the carbon.

-Ray

[CNY rider]

For what little its worth (and I'm sure its damn little!), I have recently acquired two sets of tubeless wheels. One is aluminum rims - the other is carbon rims with an aluminum braking surface bonded on - but the structure of the rim is all carbon. Given the low pressures that I can run tubeless, both are pretty smooth. But the alu are a bit smoother and 'softer' feeling than the carbon, which are very stiff feeling. The carbon SOUNDS more muted on rough roads. But the alu FEELS more muted. I really like both sets, but there is a difference I can perceive. Wouldn't say one is better, but one is slightly softer feeling and its not the carbon.

-Ray

How did the prices compare?

[Ray]

How did the prices compare?
I paid a bit more for one than the other, but I think that was mostly because one had been around a little longer and I got them from the UK. Their retail prices are pretty close I think. But the carbons were more and are probably still more. But its not like they're at wildly different places on the food chain of wheels. And its also not like either (or both combined, for that matter) are anywhere NEAR the cost of a set of Lightweights or any of the other really high zoot wheels.

-Ray

[lavi]

What got thinking prior to see this, and the other wheel threads, was that I wanted to get a new set of wheels this year. I would really love to have a set of Edge rims laced up to something smooth. In the end, the main deterent from me was price. I could pay around $2K for something high zoot that I know I'd ride hard and then feel the need to sell in a couple of years for fear of them disintigrating on a bumpy decent. Not that it would happen, just what I'd worry about. So I landed on a some hand built aluminum that are pretty much as top of the line as you can get with out getting crazy (tune hubs) for around $700.

New wheels, no laser beams out of my wife's eyes boring into my head, happy me.

These wheels will be fast, trust worthy, and pretty trick looking. I tend to go for traditional looking things anyhow. They'll also be "comfy"....depending on what tires I run on them. :beer:

[Likes2ridefar]

New wheels, no laser beams out of my wife's eyes boring into my head, happy me.


I wish I had a picture of my wife when I showed up home from work carrying the dv66T's.

She didn't really notice the dv46c's since I took all the stickers off and they don't look terribly different from my kinlin 27mm rims, but the dv66t were impossible to hide:)