Shimano BBs: Ultegra better than DA??

[weisan]

I am overhauling my Legend. Before it was using a DuraAce 7700 Bottom Bracket and has ZERO problems, I didn't hear any squeaks, it has no play. In other words, I could put in fresh grease and install back the same BB if I want to.
On the other hand, I have also heard that the Ultegra BB is more "durable" than the DA model. Does anyone have the firsthand knowledge of whether that's true? If so, I would like to know beforehand since I do have a relatively new Ultegra 6500 BB that I could use.

Thanks a bunch!

weisan

[Richard]

I think that the "durability" issue with DA vs. Ultegra is more about improper installation than about the BB itself. A lot of people these days have no idea how to install anything but cartridge BBs and they make a mess of anything else. I've run DA for years with no problems.

[Sandy]

My comments are given with the understanding that my knowledge about bicycle parts is quite limited, and I do no mechanical work on my bike, because I do not know how.

I have Dura-Ace 9 on my CSi. I used to use the Dura-Ace bb, but the life span seemed to be quite short. As I understand, the Dura-Ace bb was serviceable. It had both ball bearings and needle (?) bearings. The Ultegra bb was disposable. No servicing required. Use it and discard it.

I called up Shimano (North America) several times and complained about the longevity of the Dura-Ace bb (and the lousy STI shifters-9 speed). They readily agreed that they had had signifcant problems with the shifters, but only peripherally said that there was a problem with the Dura-Ace bb. They said that the problem was with the maintenance, or lack of, of the bb.

I now have the Dura-Ace track bb in my CSi. Many cyclists simply started using the Ultegra bb, which seemed to have much fewer problems and did not need to be serviced (assuming that I am correct). The only negatives to the Ultegra was the little additional weight and shorter warranty period.

Many NEW bikes were often built with complete Dura-Ace, except the bb, which would be Ultegra, and that would be direct from the manufacturer.

I will not replace my CSi bb with a Dura-Ace bb, but will use an Ultegra or another Dura-Ace track bb.

Hope that I helped you some.

At the bottom bracket of bike knowledge,

Sandy

[Sandy]

I think that it went well beyond proper installation. The Dura-Ace bb, per Shimano, needed timely maintenance and that was often not done, so problems persisted. With the Ultegra, that was not a problem.

Always a problem,

:) Sandy :)

[Sandy]

I think that it went well beyond proper installation. The Dura-Ace bb, per Shimano, needed timely maintenance and that was often not done, so problems persisted. With the Ultegra, that was not a problem.

Always a problem,

:) Sandy :)

[Sandy]

I told you that I was always a problem. Somehow, I double posted.

Double the problem,

Sandy Sandy

[theprep]

Weisan

You seem like someone who likes to work on his own bikes. In that case I would install the DA 9 bottom bracket and when it starts to creek (or goes over 1000 miles) just service it yourself.

The only tricky part is getting the bearing preload correct. I have had good luck with only installing the drive side crankarm onto the BB and then adjusting the non-drive side of the BB. Use the tightened drive side crankarm to detect any free play in the BB.

Do not remove the circlips inside the BB cups that contain the needle and ball bearings. I used too much compressed air once and blew all the needles and balls all over my garage floor. Not fun but I found them all.

[Richard]

Well, double posting doubles the impact. "...well beyond proper installation." I really don't think so. I installed a DA BB on a CSI in 1999, I think. Still going strong. Service may be an issue, but all I've done is check for play and I pulled it two years ago (for the first time) to regrease. It was fine (still is). I think the problem was, primarily, in improper torque and, secondarily, in mishandling of the seals when installing. The instructions are a bit odd regarding the seal (if I recall). I will grant that installation is a pain. The reason manufacturers put an Ultegra on a "factory build" is obvious -- NO ADJUSTMENT! Just run it in with a driver and ship. Not so with Dura Ace where a delicate touch is required.

[gabbard]

In my opinion, there does not seem to be any reason to buy the DA BB, unless you MUST have all DA on your bike. Weight difference is about a shot glass of water between the two, while the DA costs about 80% more, the Ultegra lasts forever (from my experience on two separate cross bikes that were raced), and unless you really like doing bike maintenance, why not put in a sealed BB that lasts for years?

Steve

[bikedadjc]

Over on the bicycling maintenance forum. You will see if check back a few pages that fastp3, has posted recommendations for the Dura-ace bb. The ultegra 6500 is nothing special, with the bearings mounted way inboard, and they are small, and do not support the spindle very well at all. The spindle on the Dura-ace bb, is a constant 22mm. Where as the Ultegra tapers down to 17mm then back up to 22mm on the ends. It does flex, where as the D Ace does not. Go over to the bicyling maintenance forum and check it out! Fastp3 knows his stuff about the Dura-Ace BB's and offers tips on how to install them and maintain them.

[weisan]

Thanks guys!

Sandy, you are ALWAYS ready to help your fellow serotta-mates. That means more to me than what you know. :D

theprep: Yes, you are right, I am a grease monkey. I have said before, tinkering with my bikes constitutes the other half of my cycling pleasures. :p
I don't know how you did it, but trying to find all the bearings/needles on the garage floor is like finding a needle in the haystack (no pun intended). ;)

Richard, I tend to agree with you. I stripped the entire DuraAce BB down (short of blowing out the bearings and needles, theprep, bless your heart!) and gave it the patented "weisan's bubble-foam-bath and squeaky-rub." From my observation, the design of the BB looks pretty decent and is meant to be taken apart and maintained every once in a while. Mine lasted for three years w/o a single problem. Now, I just need to learn what it means to get the correct "bearing preload". I will check out the maintenance forum that **dadjc** mentioned.

Steve...yeah...I REALLY like doing bike maintenance. Sorry pal, that's how I was created. :D

weisan

[weisan]

I found this over at the Bicycling maintenance forum....thought it's pretty funny and might come as useful info for some folks here....

fastp3

Posts: 4,956
Registered: 2/15/03
Re: 7700 Dura Ace Bottom Bracket adjustment???
Posted: Dec 1, 2004 1:44 PM Reply


If you have not been riding is rough conditions like heavy rain, 8k isn't that much. Still it is a good idea to take that BB apart once a season. There are a few things you have to be careful of.

1. You HAVE to get the right tools. All the cups and lock rings are aluminum and if you go after it with cheap tools like a single hook lock ring tool, you will likely mess it up. Get a good 4 hook tool. You will also need a splined adjustable cup tool from Shimano.

2. Take it apart in an area that is controlled, there are roller bearings and small balls and if they roll away you will never find them. It is best not to try to pull the roller bearings fully from the cups but rather just try to flush everything out with kerosene or some other grease solvent.

3. Finally and this is the biggest thing. When you put it all back together, make sure you do not get the adjustment too tight. This will eat the bearings in a matter of days. Unlike most bottom brackets which will tend to get rough when they are too tight, the 7700 will not. As you are tightening it, you will notice that you cannot get any up/down rocking like you can with a traditional ball and cup BB. What you do get however is left right motion, until the cups push down against the small rings of thrust bearings. Simply tighten down the adjustable cup, checking constantly until all side to side motion of the spindle JUST disappears. When this happens tighten down the lock ring and keep checking the side to side motion. When you have everything fully tight with no side motion you are good to go.

The 7700 has a bad rep as not being durable. This is BS, it is probably the best "traditonal" BB that has ever been made. The problem with it is moron "mechanics" who don't have a freaking clue what they are doing and figure it must be the parts fault. EVERY 7700 BB failure I have ever seen was due to improper installation, including one clown who ate 4 of them before he finally let me show him what he was doing wrong. Of course he "had been working on my bikes for 20 years!" and apparently doing it poorly all along.

Good luck

[Too Tall]

It's raining so I'm raining!!!

RTFM. I'll repeat. RTFM.

[Len J]

It's raining so I'm raining!!!

RTFM. I'll repeat. RTFM.

The DA BB is significantly better and lasts significantly longer than the Ultegra if it is installed properly and maintained regularly. I like wrenching my bike. I tend to do it when I'm home at night while I'm watching TV. To me it's relaxing. So for me the benefits outweigh the cost. If I wanted a "disposable" low maintenace BB that I was willing to replace every cople of years, then the Ultegra is fine. Otherwise, the D/A is great.

Len

PS if you really want to feel the difference, alternate riding between a bike with a 2 year old Ultegra BB (with around 10,000 miles on it) with a 2 year old D/A BB Bike that has been properly maintained and installed. The D/A fels like a new BB, smooth, stiff, no extraneous vibrations thru the pedals, the Ultegra feels like the bearings are worn, vibration, play etc.

[Big Dan]

Really disagree on the lifespan of the Ultegra BB. This is similar to people saying they like to rebuilt the Campy stuff. I've used many different Shimano BB's, including the cheaper UN72 and so on with no problems. Worn bearings ?? BB flex?? significantly better?? :confused: Please........ :no: Yes I do ride my bikes during the South Florida summer...meaning rain and more rain....You can use the DA BB if you want, other people like the Saturn mechanics didn't...go figure....

[weisan]

Okay, one more question. Is Ti Prep absolutely necessary before I put this puppy back to the Legend? It looks like whoever install the BB in the first place did a good job. I just hope to replicate that.

[dave thompson]

Okay, one more question. Is Ti Prep absolutely necessary before I put this puppy back to the Legend? It looks like whoever install the BB in the first place did a good job. I just hope to replicate that.
Using Ti prep is a 'best' practice, wrap the threads with teflon tape and use a torque wrench for a guarantdamteed no noise bottom bracket.

[weisan]

Using Ti prep is a 'best' practice, wrap the threads with teflon tape and use a torque wrench for a guarantdamteed no noise bottom bracket.

Thanks Dave, you are a great pal! I will dutifully do as told.

[vaxn8r]

I found this over at the Bicycling maintenance forum....thought it's pretty funny and might come as useful info for some folks here....

I can't disagree more with the person you quoted. I have used DA BB's and they have shown good durability...but not if used regularly in the rain. I have found Ultegra BB do last longer than DA BB when used in tough conditions, probably because of the seals. I don't buy Record BB's anymore either. When you trash them every few years, why spend that kind of money? Still, if you only ever ride your bike on dry roads then you can use just about anythig and forget about it except for routine maintenance.

Anyone that has problems with Ultegra BB is not installing them properly.

[christian]

I've used the DA 7700 BB and been perfectly happy with it. It's certainly very light and spins incredibly smoothly. It hasn't been on my rain bike(s), though - 5500 cartridge BB and TA Axix on those.

That said, I just installed a 6500 BB on my Pegoretti. Absolutely idiot proof, and works perfectly fine. I think they're both ok, but the 6500 definitely wins in the "fix and forget" category.

- Christian

[weisan]

Thanks vaxn8r and Christian for chiming in. I think what I will do tonight is put up a blindfold and whatever I pick up (DA or Ultegra) shall be **mated** eternally to the nice Ti bombshell. :D