Tubular Troubles

[rockdude]

Tubular Troubles

After years of reading the raving reviews of Tubulars, I ventured to the dark-side this winter and purchased a pair of wheels that I had been lusting over for ages. I sewed them up with the high dollar Veloflex Carbon tubulars mainly because of all the hype of smoothness and reasonable durability. I spent an additional $70 having the LBS glue them on. I had been waiting five long months for the roads to clear up from the winter gravel before riding them. The anticipation was high and I only hoped that they would ride half as good as I had dreamed.

Well, Saturday was the day…. I took out the dream carbon wheels laced with the veloflexs. The planned ride was 70 miles with 4800 ft of climbing with and fast 16 mile descent. A great test of an ultralite wheelset with a supple tubie.

40 miles into the great ride, I pulled to a stop sign with a little gravel in the road and it happened, Pusssssss. The front tubie was DOA. For a $130 all I got was 40 stinking miles. In my frustration, I have several questions.


Is this what I should expect from the Veloflex tubulars?

Has anyone had similar Experiences or very different experiences?

How should I attempt to fix it? (it looks to be a small hole, a small, sharp chunk of granite gravel was stuck in the tubie). Pit stop? Slime? Take it apart and patch? Spend another $130 for a new one?


Thanks,
John......

[link]

That's a bummer for sure. My experience with tubulars has netted year after year without any flats and I've also experienced multiple flats within a single month.

It's kinda like gettin a core shot and damaged edge on the first day out with a new pair of skis ...'cept that's a more expensive situation than a flat with a brand new tubie.

Tire Alert (http://www.tirealert.com/) does a pretty good job with resurrecting tubulars. You could also DIY ...it's a bit tedious.

If you want to continue riding tubulars you should learn to glue 'em yourself. It's pretty easy and you'll have more peace of mind that it was done properly.

I know how you feel and what your thinking. Everything being equal, I think they're worth it if you have at least two sets of tubular wheels and a set of clinchers also so you can keep your riding schedule uninterrupted and have the choice of selecting the clincher wheels when conditions are more prone to flatting. You should also have a few or even several tubular tires pre glued and ready to mount.

[Ozz]

...If you want to continue riding tubulars you should learn to glue 'em yourself. It's pretty easy and you'll have more peace of mind that it was done properly......
+1

Look for posts by "11.4" or "theoldman" for proper technique....

I followed these instructions and it was a piece of cake:

Tubulars... easy if you have time (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=450&postcount=6)

I've been riding tubulars all spring and have not had a problem....

Also, do a search for folding a spare....it looks cool if you do it right...not so if not. :cool:

[paczki]

I just got my second flat after much riding the other day. Pit Stop works like a charm, unless it's a sidewall cut.
I ride Contis because they seem pretty puncture resistant.

[csm]

+1 on the contis. I am switching back to tubulars this season. but will keep the clinchers mounted and ready.

[palincss]

Jobst Brandt explains how to repair a tubular tire in this article on Sheldon's site: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tubular-repair.html

[John M]

The first time I raced in tubs many years ago, I got a flat about 5 minutes in. Didn't have another tubular flat for the next several thousand miles.

[Z3c]

First, I would recommend injecting a few ounces of Stan's tubeless sealant fluid into the flat tire and see if that fixes it. Really easy to do, remove the core and inject with a syringe or something similar, and give the wheel a few spins to dist. the fluid. If that does not fix it, I would recommend having Tire Alert fix your tire and then gluing it yourself. Gluing really isn't the chore it is often made out to be. When you remount it, put a few ounces of Stan's tubeless sealant into the tire. Obviously, put some into the other tire as well..

They are worth it; don't let this discourage you!

Scott

[mschol17]

If you try Pit Stop and it doesn't work, just send the tire away to Tire Alert, because I don't think you can patch the tube afterward.

+1 on the learning to glue your own tires. I would recommend having someone who knows what they're doing show you in person. That's a big help.

[ty-ro]

This just might be the year for the tubular test for me. If I'm going to do it, I'm going to go all out with a set of Edge Composites 1.0 in either 25, 45, or 68 flavor. I'll have to see how my little garage sale goes first...

[mgm777]

John - How did they ride for the first 40 miles? Serious question.

Michael

[rphetteplace]

Veloflex roubaix ride like f'n butter. Going back and forth from these tubulars to clinchers is always a tough pill.

[fogrider]

If you try Pit Stop and it doesn't work, just send the tire away to Tire Alert, because I don't think you can patch the tube afterward.

+1 on the learning to glue your own tires. I would recommend having someone who knows what they're doing show you in person. That's a big help.

tire alert has a machine that will take apart a tubular and remove the innertube and a new innertube is inserted and the tire is sewn back together. I think they have options for a better innertube.

[terrytnt]

You had a very unfortunate situation... +1 for Tire Alert. Last year I had a similar problem 2 miles from home with only a few hundred miles with my new Veloflex Carbon. Tire Alert not only handled my repair perfectly, but they install an extended stem to fit my Shamals.

Like most tubular riders on this site, it is VERY rare to get flats, but eventually it happens to all of us. I carry Pit Stop and a spare tubular under my saddle. My flat last year was the first I'd had with Veloflex in over 3 years (5-6K per year).

Stay the course... you won't have regrets

[sspielman]

Freak occurrence. Learn to glue the tires.It is not hard at all.and you cant pass the initiation to become a master mason without performing the ritual. at that time, we will give you the secret signs and handshakes. The brotherhood is world wide, and you will benefit from the support.

[rockdude]

John - How did they ride for the first 40 miles? Serious question.

Michael

My first impressions were positive. The tubie did feel smoother than my Pro Race 2's and the Lightweight wheels, well felt lightweight. When I would hammer down, they sure felt like I was getting up to speed quicker. Bottom line, I need more time to give a good review, all I can give is impressions right now.

[djg]

Veloflex tires are not the hardest wearing tires out there, even among tires I'd consider good tubulars, but they are well made and I'd say that your experience is typical only in the sense that sh . . . tufff happens. You could go 1,500 miles or more without a single flat only to have a week in which you get two. I know I've gone longer than that -- many people have. Unless you are riding on thorn or glass covered roads, I would expect typical tire life to be pretty good.

After climbing a bit of the learning (and practice) curve, preparing and mounting tires should become much less daunting than it is the first time or two. Also, (most) tires can be repaired if not completely destroyed.

[terrytnt]

You know... I actually think the brotherhood is growing...

:beer:

[GuyGadois]

+1

Rode first time last weekend on tubbies since college (yes, a long time ago) on brand new Conti Sprinters (I just glue them on a few weeks ago). I got 4 miles from home and psss pssst psss pssst. Ugh. On the good side, flats with tubulars are so much easier to control than clinchers!

-GG-


:crap: :crap: :crap: :crap: :crap: :crap: :crap: :crap: :crap: :crap:

[benb]

Wait so how hard is it to repair a punctured tubular? I always figured tubular riders were swapping the tubes for ease of use on the side of the road and then repairing them at home...

Some (most?) people actually trash the tire when they get home?

That would seem to take tubulars from a quaint old thing to totally insane.

[paczki]

Wait so how hard is it to repair a punctured tubular? I always figured tubular riders were swapping the tubes for ease of use on the side of the road and then repairing them at home...

Some (most?) people actually trash the tire when they get home?

That would seem to take tubulars from a quaint old thing to totally insane.

It depends. A simple puncture is easily fixable with Pit Stop. A sidewall gash is not easily fixable on any tire. A severe puncture which would make you throw away a clincher can be fixed on a tubular.

It is no more difficult to swap a tubular on the side of the road than a clincher. You just have to:

1. Carry a pre-glued, pre-stretched tubular (preferably just an old tubular you replaced.

2. Not overglue your tubulars (so you can peel them off).

The kicker is you need to carry a tubular. But honestly it's not very difficult, they roll up and they are light. And when you do get a puncture, as the OP noted it's much, much easier to control. No tire going sideways on a descent....

[djg]

It depends. A simple puncture is easily fixable with Pit Stop. A sidewall gash is not easily fixable on any tire. A severe puncture which would make you throw away a clincher can be fixed on a tubular.

It is no more difficult to swap a tubular on the side of the road than a clincher. You just have to:

1. Carry a pre-glued, pre-stretched tubular (preferably just an old tubular you replaced.

2. Not overglue your tubulars (so you can peel them off).

The kicker is you need to carry a tubular. But honestly it's not very difficult, they roll up and they are light. And when you do get a puncture, as the OP noted it's much, much easier to control. No tire going sideways on a descent....

+1

I've had good (but not perfect) luck with pit stop -- with a small puncture, you can brush off the tire, inflate, give the tire a spin, and be on the road way, way quicker than you could with any other repair of either a clincher or a tubular tire. Also, I get fewer punctures than I do with clincher tires.

With a larger puncture or more serious damage, you need to replace the tire for the rest of the ride, at least if you don't want to take the time to patch it right then and there, but replacing the tire really shouldn't be too much of a chore if you've done proper prep (although if you err on the side of caution, you might have to do some work to wrestle the old tire off). And carrying a spare tubular is just not noticeable work -- you take it off to race, but otherwise it's under the saddle and that's that.

OTOH, I've had good use of a set of clincher wheels this season, for the first year in some time (long and uninteresting story why). I don't love the tires (or any clinchers I've tried), but the GP4000s really do seem to have pretty good grip and a decent profile, and they also seem to wear like iron -- I cannot even get the rear tire to square off, and I'm not a featherweight.

[mister]

or if you wanna glue your tires real well just carry a tire lever with you.

[palincss]

Wait so how hard is it to repair a punctured tubular? I always figured tubular riders were swapping the tubes for ease of use on the side of the road and then repairing them at home...

Some (most?) people actually trash the tire when they get home?

That would seem to take tubulars from a quaint old thing to totally insane.

I've never fixed one. Back in 1971 when I was deciding whether to get sew-ups or clinchers on the Paramount I was ordering, I read everything I could get my hands on regarding fixing a flat. What I read (in Eugene Sloan's book, IIRC) is pretty much what Jobst's article says, except that Jobst glosses over the issue of actually finding the location of the puncture. If it's not obvious from an inspection of the tread, it can be hard to find because water immersion doesn't give you the location of the puncture, just where the bubbles are escaping from the casing, which could be in a very different spot from the actual puncture; you won't know the truth until you open the stitches, and bad luck on you if you guess wrong.

I'm actually amazed that people are using tubulars but not fixing them themselves. Earlier in this thread somebody talks about achieving Master Mason status. Surely that must come with fixing punctures not just gluing tires on. Mere apprentices could do that back in the day... And considering how much tubulars cost, I agree with your sentiment: throwing them away without fixing them is insane.

[KJMUNC]

or if you wanna glue your tires real well just carry a tire lever with you.

I wish my tires came off this easily.....maybe I err too much on the side of caution, but it usually takes a screw driver (the tool, not the drink) and some serious muscle to carve one loose from the rim. Luckily I've only had slow flats or ones that could be fixed with Pit Stop so I've not yet had to change on the road side, but I fear the day that happens as it's not going to be fun.

p.s., I go with 2x coats on rim and tire. I didn't think that was extreme, but they aren't coming off without a fight.

[rustychain]

I get kind of scared when I read these threads. I ran over some glass (or whatever) and my tubular went flat :bike: . Blame the tire or better yet the way its installed. Then proclaim how whatever you were not using at the time is better not just for you but for everyone else as well?????

Truth is any tire that's inflated can and will go flat. If you don't want to learn how to deal with tubular then ride clinchers, don't waste time trying something your predisposed to hate. Tubular are easy as clinchers to repair but for just some simple sewing skills. You pull out the tube, patch it, stick it back in and sew it up. Re glue the small amount of base tape and move on. Pack an extra (pre glued) tire when training, learn how to pull off a tire (I have never used nor will use a screwdriver on my carbon rims thank you) and chill. Cyclist have been doing this for over 100 years now, the technology is proven. I only use tubular for road and cross. 12000+ miles last year. One flat on the road bike and one on the cross. It did not ruin my day, it just gave me some time to enjoy nature :D

[rockdude]

Since the Hole in the Tubular was small, I went with the sealent method. I bought some Pit Stop installed it and the leak stopped. Man, I thought, "that was to ez". Yesterday, I went out with the hardcore boys and about 27 miles into the ride we were doing some high speed downhill turns (35ish) and then to a hard stop. As I pulled away from the stop, I felt it, the tubie was half flat. Two rides, two flats. It looks like, but I am not sure, that the same old hole started to leak again.

I had a spare with me, so I started to pulling off the tubie. 30 mins later, I had it off but also had three large blisters on my thumbs and fingers from pulling so hard and long. That thing was really on good. I took off the valve extention and started to put it on the new tubie and realized that I had not remove the value core from the new tubie and had no way of getting it out. Stuck again, and wife to the rescue. Damn, I love her.

I going to give it one more time. I know these type of things happen in pairs. But if it happens again, someone is going to get a very nice wheelset at a great price.

PS. I LOVE THE RIDE of the wheels (the best I have ever been on), just not the flats and the problems associated with them.

[mister]

well i wouldn't consider that two flats, you still losing air from the original flat.
also if it was a slow leak (and you had a pump) why not just air it up to pressure again and ride for a good while before you lose too much pressure. kinda a cruise home sorta thing.

also, now you know why i mentioned to have a tire lever if the tire is glued well. besides saving your fingers, if you get the lever under the basetape and use that to work the tire off the rim you shouldn't have any problems with torn basetape. plus it goes much quicker than trying to get it off with just your hands.

[rockdude]

well i wouldn't consider that two flats, you still losing air from the original flat.
also if it was a slow leak (and you had a pump) why not just air it up to pressure again and ride for a good while before you lose too much pressure. kinda a cruise home sorta thing.

also, now you know why i mentioned to have a tire lever if the tire is glued well. besides saving your fingers, if you get the lever under the basetape and use that to work the tire off the rim you shouldn't have any problems with torn basetape. plus it goes much quicker than trying to get it off with just your hands.


I didn't mention that I did fill it up with air and it looked like it was holding for about 3 mins, then it lost all the air very fast. I think the extra pressure blew out the sealent that was in the old hole. I thought about the tire levers and should have used them but just didn't want to put scratches on the new carbon rims. My thought was my thumbs will heal the rims will not.

This is all new and I guess I will learn the tricks as I go.

[tbushnel]

also, now you know why i mentioned to have a tire lever if the tire is glued well. besides saving your fingers, if you get the lever under the basetape and use that to work the tire off the rim you shouldn't have any problems with torn basetape. plus it goes much quicker than trying to get it off with just your hands.

+1 this really makes it quite easy to get off quickly and without pain.

One other thing, I tend to brush my tires periodically during a ride and anytime I ride through glass. I have gotten a lot of little bits of glass off this way before they had time to puncture the tube. It seems to help anyway.

Ted

[Z3c]

Since the Hole in the Tubular was small, I went with the sealent method. I bought some Pit Stop installed it and the leak stopped. Man, I thought, "that was to ez". Yesterday, I went out with the hardcore boys and about 27 miles into the ride we were doing some high speed downhill turns (35ish) and then to a hard stop. As I pulled away from the stop, I felt it, the tubie was half flat. Two rides, two flats. It looks like, but I am not sure, that the same old hole started to leak again.

I had a spare with me, so I started to pulling off the tubie. 30 mins later, I had it off but also had three large blisters on my thumbs and fingers from pulling so hard and long. That thing was really on good. I took off the valve extention and started to put it on the new tubie and realized that I had not remove the value core from the new tubie and had no way of getting it out. Stuck again, and wife to the rescue. Damn, I love her.

I going to give it one more time. I know these type of things happen in pairs. But if it happens again, someone is going to get a very nice wheelset at a great price.

PS. I LOVE THE RIDE of the wheels (the best I have ever been on), just not the flats and the problems associated with them.

If you are using the valve extenders with the core on them, you might want to consider just using the simple valve extenders that are just a pipe so you don't have to deal with the core. Both Edge and Zipp extenders can be tightened on/off with an allen wrench. Just make sure the valve on the tire is opened tightly before you screw the extender on.

Are you having more flats than you typically have?

Scott

[Ozz]

,,,I going to give it one more time. I know these type of things happen in pairs. But if it happens again, someone is going to get a very nice wheelset at a great price. ....
How good a price? Campy compatible? Maybe you should just give up now??..... ;)

(Stick with it.....you're just having a run of bad luck. :beer: )

[rockdude]

If you are using the valve extenders with the core on them, you might want to consider just using the simple valve extenders that are just a pipe so you don't have to deal with the core. Both Edge and Zipp extenders can be tightened on/off with an allen wrench. Just make sure the valve on the tire is opened tightly before you screw the extender on.

Are you having more flats than you typically have?

Scott

Its been about 4000 miles since I had my last flat but that day I had two. Worth noting that I had 4 season contis on all winter and spent a lot of time on dirt with no flats. In the summers, I typically use PR2 on my clincher.

[palincss]

Since the Hole in the Tubular was small, I went with the sealent method. I bought some Pit Stop installed it and the leak stopped. Man, I thought, "that was to ez". Yesterday, I went out with the hardcore boys and about 27 miles into the ride we were doing some high speed downhill turns (35ish) and then to a hard stop. As I pulled away from the stop, I felt it, the tubie was half flat. Two rides, two flats. It looks like, but I am not sure, that the same old hole started to leak again.

I had a spare with me, so I started to pulling off the tubie. 30 mins later, I had it off but also had three large blisters on my thumbs and fingers from pulling so hard and long. That thing was really on good. I took off the valve extention and started to put it on the new tubie and realized that I had not remove the value core from the new tubie and had no way of getting it out. Stuck again, and wife to the rescue. Damn, I love her.

I going to give it one more time. I know these type of things happen in pairs. But if it happens again, someone is going to get a very nice wheelset at a great price.

PS. I LOVE THE RIDE of the wheels (the best I have ever been on), just not the flats and the problems associated with them.

So before giving up and selling the wheel set, why not try to fix the flat? I don't mean squirt some rubber goo into the tube, I mean really fix it. The way hardmen have been doing for 100 years. With a needle and thread.

What's the worst that could possibly happen? You'd screw it up, feel like an idiot and sell the wheel set. But I imagine you're starting to feel like an idiot now. so how much worse could it be to be proven so?

I'm not a tubular guy because my sewing skills are non-existent (and my wife just laughed at me when I asked if she'd help with the sewing). I'm happy with clinchers and I feel no tubular envy. You won't see me with my nose pressed to the glass looking into the shop window wishing...

[R2D2]

So before giving up and selling the wheel set, why not try to fix the flat? I don't mean squirt some rubber goo into the tube, I mean really fix it. The way hardmen have been doing for 100 years. With a needle and thread.

What's the worst that could possibly happen? You'd screw it up, feel like an idiot and sell the wheel set. But I imagine you're starting to feel like an idiot now. so how much worse could it be to be proven so?

I'm not a tubular guy because my sewing skills are non-existent (and my wife just laughed at me when I asked if she'd help with the sewing). I'm happy with clinchers and I feel no tubular envy. You won't see me with my nose pressed to the glass looking into the shop window wishing...

FWIW some of the newer tubulars can't be repaired as they are vulcanized.
I know TUFO's are this way. And some the higher level Conti's.

[palincss]

Rich man's tires?

[R2D2]

Rich man's tires?

Good one.

The Tufo sealant works well although a PIA to insert etc.
Vittoria Pit Stop works too.

I used to be so poor I'd run Wobler (I think) until the steel belt came thru.

[Ozz]

I had my first flat of the year today....been riding nice Dugast tubulars since about February or so....well, it was a little damp this morning so I took out the Legend with PR2 LE clinchers....about 30 miles into the ride...psssst.

Man, I love campy rims!....not! :crap: :cool:

To be fair, I should have known better than to ride those tires in the rain. I was just too lazy to swap wheels before I left.

Still, it was a fun ride....it's been awhile since I rode in the rain. :beer:

[saab2000]

I am not a rich man by a long shot (though finally am of somewhat adequate means) but have always ridden expensive tires and have never, ever regretted it. Yeah, it sucks when Vittoria Corsa CX flats (like when they were the real ones from Italy) or when you cut a Veloflex.

But my experience has been that in general they last longer and are less flat prone than clinchers, even good clinchers. I don't know why. I don't pinch flat my clinchers. But they seem to get more flats anyway.

I'm even trying some FMBs right now. Not cheap by a long shot. But honestly, the ride of the nicer tubulars is worth the hassle.

The first 'real' bike I ever had had tubulars and that was back in 1985. Been riding them on and off ever since. Lately more on than off.

Just remember, cheap tubulars are worse than cheap clinchers. If you're gonna do the tubular thing, get good ones. And the occasional pain of the early destroyed expensive tubular is worth it in the long run.

That has been my experience. I love 'em.

[Tommasini]

The bottom line is if you need to pay a shop to service your bike and glue on sewup tires then ride clinchers - - you'll be happier in the long run. If you are mechanically inclined you'll catch on to the ins and outs of tubbies and so much more.......BTW a shop that charges $70 to glue on pair of tubbies is trying to take advantage of you...............

Cheers