Did everyone here see this?

[flydhest]

I've only been reading here intermittently for the past several months, but my two worlds collided when I saw this.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article6281953.ece

[David Kirk]

Not sure what that says but it says something.

dave

[Pete Serotta]

No one ever accused him of not being smart. Does the SEROTTA confirm that? :)

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . .he has what appears to be a red Ottrott. The accentuated power transfer of the combination of titanium and carbon in the frame should help him outrun all those protestors with toches and pitchforks . . .

BBD

[Kevan]

they don't wish other Serotta owners...um, well...you know.

[zap]

Saw that last month on CNN, Cassano riding up to his apartment with a buddy and him walking up those steps. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to post that here.

Now Fly, why did your two worlds collide?

[LegendRider]

People see what they want to see. Had the bike been a Sachs or Pegoretti a few people across the hall would be saying, "At least he has good taste in bikes!"

[e-RICHIE]

People see what they want to see. Had the bike been a Sachs or Pegoretti a few people across the hall would be saying, "At least he has good taste in bikes!"
but he was caught with the BS right there in plain site atmo.
can you say perp walk.

[93legendti]

"...In recent weeks, Cassano has grown a beard and changed his crash helmet, which is no longer red but silver. The disguise might not be enough..."

That's hard hitting journalism.

[Lifelover]

It says that all though he has no control in his professional life, he wanted a sure thing in regards to his bike.

ATMO, a Serotta is about as close to a sure thing as you can get.

[rounder]

My first thought when i started reading the story was...damn, my red serotta has white grahics...gonna have to tape over them. But after awhile, realized that this was a really great read about how things came to be at AIG. This thought struck me -

"There is, however, an alternative reading. This says that the furore over bonuses is a convenient distraction from the real causes of the crisis, which go to the heart of how the world is run. There is dishonesty in this collapse, on a scale that is almost too vast to comprehend. There are conflicts of interest in American finance and politics that make our own, dear House of Lords look like beginners. There are frauds so large, and so long-standing, that it can be hard to see them for what they are. And all these things were allowed to thrive in an intellectual atmosphere that tolerated no dissent. This reading is optimistic for those who believe in free markets, even if it is pessimistic for the US. “Capitalism has not failed,” says Bernard-Henri Lévy, the French philo-sopher. “We have failed capitalism.” The thesis can be tested through Patient Zero. "

[Pastashop]

...agree with the previous poster on that.

But can the publisher get sued for endangering the dude's life by outing his identity?..

[flydhest]

Now Fly, why did your two worlds collide?

More bitterness. The financial collapse is keeping me off my Serotta.

[Climb01742]

“Capitalism has not failed,” says Bernard-Henri Lévy, the French philo-sopher. “We have failed capitalism.”

interesting thought.

[fiamme red]

This reading is optimistic for those who believe in free markets, even if it is pessimistic for the US. “Capitalism has not failed,” says Bernard-Henri Lévy, the French philosopher. “We have failed capitalism.”Richard Posner disagrees:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/books/review/Rauch-t.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=capitalism&st=cse

[Birddog]

That was a meaty read, and well worth it IMO. There are lots of gems in there, but this one stood out to me. It was in reference to a study of AIG commissioned by the Economist in 2001.
In his report for The Economist, however, he was tactful. To justify the share price, he said, “it would have to grow about 63% faster than [its] peers for the next 25 years. If investors believe that AIG can sustain this type of performance for that period of time, then AIG is properly valued”. Any investor who believed that would need to be certified.

Birddog

[RPS]

Richard Posner disagrees:Both sides are rationalizing. I see much of what’s written as posturing to promote their respective agendas. It's sad.

[fiamme red]

Both sides are rationalizing. I see much of what’s written as posturing to promote their respective agendas. It's sad.I suppose that you don't have any agenda? ;)

[Climb01742]

is "capitalism" an idea or a system?

[1centaur]

The labels matter little. Broadly speaking, freedom to seek profit exists on a continuum from none to unlimited, with "capitalism" filling much of the line in forms more and less regulated. The less the regulation (and capitalism in modern America is not particularly unregulated, no matter what politicos squawk) the more likely it is that something eventually creates some systemic instability from which it takes great effort to recover. The greater the regulation, the more potential wealth is systematically not created each year, which is a different kind of downside. It's like the stock market vs. a savings account - invest in equities (in a decent economy with appropriate regulation) and you should be WAY ahead in the long run but sometimes way down from the peak; the savings account will give you mediocre results and minimal wealth in a predictable way.

So, whether capitalists (people, human, fallible, predictably unpredictable) or capitalism (a less than fully managed economy aimed at creating societal wealth through personal incentives for fallible, unpredictable humans) "failed" this time, the result will be more (attempted) control and less wealth potential until we forget or grow restless at our national decline or both.

[Climb01742]

the freedom to seek profits is_part_of the definition of capitalism but not, i'd argue, the whole or even the most important aspect of capitalism. for me, capitalism is "economic freedom", of which there are many facets.

[flydhest]

Both sides are rationalizing. I see much of what’s written as posturing to promote their respective agendas. It's sad.

Keep in mind, though, that Posner's agenda was essentially diametrically opposed to his current views on things. He's not pushing what had been his agenda. The interviews with him have been "here's what I thought, I got new data, I thought very hard, I was wrong before, here's what I believe now."

Posner's a big thinker in the area and much revered by the right. For him to do an approximate about face is amazing.

[goonster]

is "capitalism" an idea or a system?
Depends on who you ask. For some it is the One True Faith.


“Capitalism has not failed,” says Bernard-Henri Lévy, the French philo-sopher. “We have failed capitalism.”
That's an excuse I've heard made for communism. Just saying . . .

[RPS]

Keep in mind, though, that Posner's agenda was essentially diametrically opposed to his current views on things. He's not pushing what had been his agenda. The interviews with him have been "here's what I thought, I got new data, I thought very hard, I was wrong before, here's what I believe now."

Posner's a big thinker in the area and much revered by the right. For him to do an approximate about face is amazing. Call me a skeptic, but I don’t see it quite so clearly.

From my point of view many at both extremes often back-pedal “intentionally” when their side is having a hard time to minimize the damage. It could be to save face, maintain some level of respectability and credibility, or who knows what; but I wouldn’t hold my breath for people in general to change their basic ideology.

I haven’t read the book (nor do I plan to) but in general I wouldn’t take Capitalism’s Fault Lines by Jonathan Rauch as representing Posner’s entire point of view just because he is quoted a few times. It’s just too easy to quote from a book out of context for me to conclude anything about Posner’s true message.

And even if Posner is backpedaling, I’d still question his real motives. I’m just too jaded to take anything at face value.

[Ahneida Ride]

Heck ...

Just open up a bank and practice fractional reserve.
It's a legal Ponzi scheme .. :crap:

Better yet ... own a Central Bank . you can't go wrong there.
Counterfeit to your hearts content and people MUST accept your script
under force of arms. :crap: :crap:

[Climb01742]

Depends on who you ask. For some it is the One True Faith.

the idea of capitalism and how it is executed can be vastly different. capitalism is an ideal. what most of us experience is the very messy imperfect daily translation of that ideal.

[csm]

I smell a locked thread coming on....

[1centaur]

the freedom to seek profits is_part_of the definition of capitalism but not, i'd argue, the whole or even the most important aspect of capitalism. for me, capitalism is "economic freedom", of which there are many facets.
Economic freedom to do what?

[znfdl]

What does this have to do with bikes?

[Climb01742]

Economic freedom to do what?

to run a business your way.
to invent a better widget.
to meet an unmet need.
to express your beliefs through your work.
to give gameful employment to people.
to be self-employed.
to create a meaningful service.
to aid humanity.
and that's just off the top of my head.

yes, each of these needs to at least break even to continue to exist. and yes, one hopes to make some amount of profit. but the profit motive -- and certainly not to maximize profit -- are not the goal of every businessperson. speaking for myself, our company has given up some profit to gain something else we believed of more value than money.

[Ozz]

What does this have to do with bikes?
The guy (Cassano) rides a Serotta.....plus, captialism provides the "economic freedom" to accumulate wealth, which can be used to buy leisure goods....expensive bikes being just one option.

BTW - I have a bottle of D Cubed (http://www.dcubedcellars.com/) zin I want to open this weekend....you ever had it?
:beer:

[znfdl]

BTW - I have a bottle of D Cubed (http://www.dcubedcellars.com/) zin I want to open this weekend....you ever had it?
:beer:

Interesting, need a full taste report.....

[SamIAm]

yes, each of these needs to at least break even to continue to exist. and yes, one hopes to make some amount of profit. but the profit motive -- and certainly not to maximize profit -- are not the goal of every businessperson. speaking for myself, our company has given up some profit to gain something else we believed of more value than money.

Can I assume economic freedom would allow me to operate my business to seek maximum profit, even if you chose not to? And can I assume that there is no such thing as excess/windfall profits in this economic freedom?

[1centaur]

So, when I say profit I mean that profit you wish to seek, which does not imply maximum profit and has the advantage of being one word :)

[flydhest]

What does this have to do with bikes?

To paraphrase, Serottas are at the heart of the world's financial system, for good and for ill.

The good guys in the financial world bike to work, don't they, Stu??

[Climb01742]

samiam--yes, each company has the right and freedom to seek whatever level of profit it wishes.

1centaur, i was trying to draw this distinction: profit can be both a means and an end. too often, i think, capitalism is equated with simply profit. but i believe capitalism fosters many things, potentially, far more valuable than simply profit: creativity, innovation, personal expression, satisfaction, ethical conduct. those, to me, are every bit as crucial to capitalism as profit. and to re-emphasize my point above--each company can choose its mix of attributes and profit--and then customers can choose which companies to do business with.

[Lifelover]

I smell a locked thread coming on....


I hope not. Seems completely civil and I'm enjoying the opinions. We just need to fully understand that "opinions" is all they are.

[Tobias]

but i believe capitalism fosters many things, potentially, far more valuable than simply profit: creativity, innovation, personal expression, satisfaction, ethical conduct. those, to me, are every bit as crucial to capitalism as profit.Can’t these (“creativity, innovation, personal expression, satisfaction, ethical conduct”) apply equally to voluntary work, non-profit organizations, or a bike race where profits are not much of a consideration?

Generating profits is what ensures survival and must remain top priority in capitalism. These other things I see mostly as means to that end.

[Brian Smith]

To paraphrase, Serottas are at the heart of the world's financial system, for good and for ill.

The good guys in the financial world bike to work, don't they, Stu??

Here's to propping smart guys who bike to work in the financial world, and especially toward the good ones.

[Climb01742]

Can’t these (“creativity, innovation, personal expression, satisfaction, ethical conduct”) apply equally to voluntary work, non-profit organizations, or a bike race where profits are not much of a consideration?

Generating profits is what ensures survival and must remain top priority in capitalism. These other things I see mostly as means to that end.

it's both a fascinating and important discussion: means and ends. for me, "how" a company generates its profit is just as important as "that" it generates profits. a company exists in human, social and environmental contexts. i don't think any of these are mutually exclusive: shareholder/ownership interests; employee interests; society's interests; the planet's interests. i don't believe they need to be equal interests. each company sets its own balance of priorities and responsibilities. but i would argue that the best companies consider, and in some way serve, all these interests. i see it as an economic extension of jean-jacques rousseau's ideas about a social contract.

[William]

I hope not. Seems completely civil and I'm enjoying the opinions. We just need to fully understand that "opinions" is all they are.


For me this discussion, though interesting, is a bit deep for a cycling forum. I come here more for the fun and friendship. But as president of the OTTPS, I fully support every forum members choice to start and post in OT threads.

Carry on....


William
El Presidente of the OTTPS (Off Topic Thread Preservation Society)

[keno]

what's with this two world's colliding stuff? Look and Jersey City? DC has gotten to you fer sure.

keno

[1centaur]

i was trying to draw this distinction: profit can be both a means and an end. too often, i think, capitalism is equated with simply profit. but i believe capitalism fosters many things, potentially, far more valuable than simply profit: creativity, innovation, personal expression, satisfaction, ethical conduct. those, to me, are every bit as crucial to capitalism as profit. and to re-emphasize my point above--each company can choose its mix of attributes and profit--and then customers can choose which companies to do business with.

You are right that too often capitalism is viewed as a "greed is good" construct with the viewer stopping the thought at "greed" (not even properly equating that word in that context with self-gain) and assuming the "good" part is a lie told to oneself.

The good part comes in many forms, including societal wealth, personal freedom, progress, and many of the elements you listed. However, theory might say that those who focus on something other than maximizing profit will be overcome in the end by those with uni-vision. The trouble with theory is that business plans can exist for a fairly long time before they are overcome, which goes back to my top non-cycling life tip: everything is temporary. All success is temporary, so there's nothing wrong with focusing on other positive elements of running a business as long as you realize you are adding risk to its financial longevity, spending on the luxury of "something more" than business. Businesses are rarely good at profit maximizing in more than theory anyway, so I say go for it.