Ti or Steel ?

[dsimon]

Im looking to add another bike to my collection. well would two bikes make a collection? any way i want another bike. and i love my csi should i get another slightly used csi or try to find a slighty used ti frame? is there much difference in the ride quality? besides the obviouse weight and rust issue anything else i should know? thanks happy new years :beer: :beer:

[oracle]

magnesium

[dsimon]

just because im sick right now dosent mean i want to take magnesium :crap: how am i gonna ride it? :confused:

[Wanker]

A classic lugged steele as close to nos from the seventies and eighties. Think Masi.
wanker

[Larry]

If I were to spend the money................

I would without hesitation get another steel bike. They are simply more beautiful than ti. and they continue to look more beautiful over the course of time. My Csi is 6 years old, and I would buy another steel in a flash.

I would build my dream bike with the most beautiful lugs the builder could find. Dave Kirk would be the builder, and I would travel to Montana to meet and discuss the specific needs, and also have him do the fitting.
THIS INDEED WOULD BE THE ULTIMATE.

This is all based on experiences at the Bike Mart, which carries many, many top-notch framesets in various materials. A nice steel frame, preferrably lugged, pulls you into it, and it has a personality and soul in the ride. So far, I have never felt that way about a ti or carbon frame. ........ Just my opinion.

Larry

[Larry]

You would really like the ride of a Legend fitted to you. It is different than steel......... in some folks minds, better than steel.

But..... for my taste steel is the real deal, and it inspires you and becomes a part of the body and road.

[Climb01742]

there is, of course, no right answer to your question...just a million opinions! :rolleyes:

my 2 cents is...try ti. part of the beauty of bikes is all the flavors. steel and ti do ride differently and its fun being able to ride both...for different days, different routes, different purposes, even just different moods.

two steel frames could offer you very different experiences, but a steel and a ti frame would, i think, offer you two more different, more varied experiences. if you go the used ti route, especially a used legend, if you can, learn about the frame you might buy. meaning...how was it built? what ride characteristics were built into it? super stiff or super comfort? ti frames can vary alot in how they ride, so make sure, if you can, that the one you're considering has the ride you're looking for. good luck!!

[Too Tall]

More Scuba gear :cool:

What interestes you? Could it be some uber weight weenie machnia to climb the lava domes? Got a yen to knock out a bunch of centuries? I won't buy the argument for a rain bike...not where you live pal!

[OldDog]

Buy what really moves your cycling soul.

Not that I can recommend anything for you, but check out Douglas's new Mariposa in the gallery, that is one well done steel bike.

[dsimon]

climb i want a ride as sweet and elligant as my csi but lighter possibly for raceing as for centurys thats to far anything over 60 miles in one day makes my arse just kringe and TooTall yeah i know i dont even ride my csi in the rain but i need to tell the wify something or how else can i justify 2 bikes"you got one a@@ what do you need 2 bikes for?" uhhh idont know because i can? :crap:

[Too Tall]

They see right through us boss no use making something up just tell it like it is. Negotiate a budget and close the deal with a shared luxury. Cool, sounds like you might be up for a light steel bike THATS a fun project.

[Tom]

I'm going to get me a used Concours. Or dbrk's Legend if he's still trying to sell it five or six years from now.

You can't beat the steel ride but it would be nice to have a salt bike.

[William]

I'm not going to get into the fit, stem length, or geometry issues here, just my interpretation of "Feel".
Steel has that beautiful "zing" that resonates through the frame from the road buzz. :cool: Ti's feel is more "Buttery smooth". I'm a steel man but my taste of that "Buttery Smoothness" has convinced me that eventually I'll add a Ti frame to the line up.

William

[Jeff N.]

You've got a steel bike. Now, get a Ti one! Pure logic. Jeff N.

[dave thompson]

I'll jump on the Ti bandwagon too. Ti just feels different, in a very good way. It will smooth out those crap Hawaiian roads, and is much easier to clean after riding in the rain.

[dbrk]

If I had only two bikes both would be steel: one modern and one classic. If I had two steel bikes I would still want another steel bike: another modern or classic. If I had three steel bikes I would have a ti bike. And once I had a room full of steel bikes and one ti bike, only then would I have a mixed-media or carbon bike. As Jeff put it: pure logic.

dbrk

[93legendti]

there is, of course, no right answer to your question...just a million opinions! :rolleyes:

my 2 cents is...try ti. part of the beauty of bikes is all the flavors. steel and ti do ride differently and its fun being able to ride both...for different days, different routes, different purposes, even just different moods.

two steel frames could offer you very different experiences, but a steel and a ti frame would, i think, offer you two more different, more varied experiences. if you go the used ti route, especially a used legend, if you can, learn about the frame you might buy. meaning...how was it built? what ride characteristics were built into it? super stiff or super comfort? ti frames can vary alot in how they ride, so make sure, if you can, that the one you're considering has the ride you're looking for. good luck!!

Another vote for Serotta Ti here. Great for rain, no rust issues, lighter than steel, etc.

[Elefantino]

I have a 7-year-old CSi and it's a great bike, but not as good as my DeBernardi for centuries. Beats up my back a bit, even though the contact points are the same on both bikes. Would love to try ti (haven't done anything longer than an around-the-block test) to see if it rides like the SLX.

I'm now off to the doctor to find out if I have to have more minor back surgery. Woohoo!

Mike

[Climb01742]

you have a really nice steel frame now. if you had a less nice steel frame, then the argument for a second steel frame might be, IMO, stronger. but a CSi is a really nice steel. if lightweight is a goal, you gotta think beyond steel. steel is alotta things, but light isn't one of them. and especially not light and velvety smooth. ti is light and smooth. and given your climate, ti ain't gonna rust. i 100% believe that steel is real...it just isn't the only thing. :rolleyes:

[Ahneida Ride]

Ok ... so perhaps Steel is the better ride. But ....

Without equivocation or tergiversation, Willliam's encomium is da fact.

Ti is Buttery Smooth. !!!!



Man, I sound like DBRK !!!!! ;) ;) ;) ;)

[medici]

I have a CSI. It's my favorite for ride quality and pure joy. But I also have a "buttery smooth" Legend, and I'll choose it more often than not for long or very hilly rides. Very different experiences, but both feel like Serottas.

With ti, you probably won't be horrified by the ride quality as you might with aluminum or carbon. Get the ti.

[Climb01742]

With ti, you probably won't be horrified by the ride quality as you might with aluminum or carbon. Get the ti.

though everyone's tastes are different...a parlee Z1 (carbon) and a peg CCKMP or eddy team sc (both alu) are, IMO, as far from "horrifying" as one could hope...just my 2 cents... :rolleyes:

[jerk]

get a c50. you're looking for something lighter, snappier and more comfy than your csi.....now you should be out of luck but you aren't. in general a legend ti should ride just like a csi, after all it was the bench mark. in general serotta titanium is a tad more racy than other peoples offerings....although being the custom builder that they are, they could build you a nice whippy noodle too if they put their mind to it...but by design serotta ti tends to ride more like a really nice steel race bike than it does like a traditional titanium bike.....in the larger sizes they are incredibly stiff torsionally...too stiff for some. the jerk might also recommend looking at independent fabrications. those guys do some nice work in titanium as well. ask dbrk for his take on the two masterpieces he has in his collection.....their steel bikes are really wonderfully finished and thought out as well. if you want another serotta you can't go wrong with any of their offerings....for the sake of politics the nice folks at serotta would never admit it, but technologically speaking the titanium tubes utilized on serotta's cheapest ti bikes are about where seven are on their highest end full ti bikes....but the jerk digresses. if you want something different and just about perfect try aluminum from pegoretti or a c-50 from colnago. in either case you'll end up with a bike that does just about everything right. (or you could just throw the money at a pair of ada wheels and turn your csi into the world's greatest bicycle.)
jerk

[93legendti]

A Legend ST or Ottrott ST (or Ottrott w/ stadndard rear triangle) will be a nice change from the CSI. MY Legend and Ottrott are different enough to warrant owning both of them.

("This Forum is:
...To discuss Serotta products and anything relating to Serotta products, history, lore, events, etc.
A place for potential Serotta owners to pose questions relating to Serotta products and to gain information from current Serotta owners about their Serotta(s)...
This forum is not:
...For members to try to discredit or otherwise intentionally steer others away from Serotta products.")

[Big Dan]

Didn't know we had a new moderator........ :confused:


CSI, if you go titanium just go full ti forget all the carbon stays...silly, silly stuff...wait 'till that plastic snaps..... :bike:

[GoJavs]

Here we go again... :crap:

("This Forum is:
...To discuss Serotta products and anything relating to Serotta products, history, lore, events, etc. A place for potential Serotta owners to pose questions relating to Serotta products and to gain information from current Serotta owners about their Serotta(s)...this forum is not:
...For members to try to discredit or otherwise intentionally steer others
away from Serotta products.")[/QUOTE]

************************************************** ******
Since below the line disclosures appear to be getting longer, here's one of my own:

"Never allow very long or short stems to compensate for a poorly sized frame. Your steering and center of gravity will be compromised, and the bike will not be very comfortable to ride"....Dr Edmund R. Burke ;)

[Dekonick]

If you have a CSI, go Ti.

IF you can find one in your size... get a Hors Categorie - the ride is simply sublime. Having said that I still love my steel Colorado. There is something magical about the feel of steel...but the Ti is nice too. :D

[Lifelover]

Ti or Steel ?

Yes

[William]

Those were the words that popped into my head as I was cruising some of RI's rougher back roads on AR's custom Ti Legend. There was a silky "Buttery" smoothness to the ride that took the edge off of the road buzz that I normally experience on this particular route on my Aluminum SL or my steel Serotta bird. I had put my saddle and post on the Legend (I know, I missed out on the Brooks) to have a familiar base feel in an attempt to isolate the frame "feel" as much as possible. Even though I have never had a problem putting high miles in on my other steel/Alum bikes, I can see how a good Ti frame could help you feel a little more refreshed after racking up a lot of miles.

If you like it, one of each would be ideal. But then again, there is nothing wrong with two steel bikes either.

William

[cinelli]

Since you have the choice and you already know what steel is like....go for Ti. In the long run, you can always sell a Serotta if it does not meet your expectations, but you have to experience both before you can determine which is better for you.

[Jeff N.]

Didn't know we had a new moderator........ :confused:


CSI, if you go titanium just go full ti forget all the carbon stays...silly, silly stuff...wait 'till that plastic snaps..... :bike:Agreed! Jeff N.

[RichMc]

Gee, does anyone personally know of a case where carbon seat stays or carbon chain stays have snapped? I've seen steel and aluminum chain stays crack. Never a seat stay yet. Now carbon forks are another story & I've seen them break. Scary stuff, ambulance and all that. Then again, how many of us ride carbon forks?

[Big Dan]

what's the gain with the carbon seatstays??? :confused:
Probably will hold up for years, but at $3795....ouch..rather get the full ti legend at $3395, with the extra money get a beer can frame with the carbon stays and a large bottle of super glue........ :D

isn't Ti smooth enough??... :D

[dave thompson]

Im looking to add another bike to my collection. well would two bikes make a collection? any way i want another bike. and i love my csi should i get another slightly used csi or try to find a slighty used ti frame? is there much difference in the ride quality? besides the obviouse weight and rust issue anything else i should know? thanks happy new years :beer: :beer:
Getting back to the original thought: I think you would be able to find a very good used Ti bike (Serotta preferred) during the winter season for a reasonable price There are many sites you can placed a WTB (want to buy ad). Make sure of the sizing you need and that it's a bike in a good shape. There will be more than enough free advice on this forum to help you in your search.

[93legendti]

Gee, does anyone personally know of a case where carbon seat stays or carbon chain stays have snapped? I've seen steel and aluminum chain stays crack. Never a seat stay yet. Now carbon forks are another story & I've seen them break. Scary stuff, ambulance and all that. Then again, how many of us ride carbon forks?


I agree.

[Tom]

Gee, does anyone personally know of a case where carbon seat stays or carbon chain stays have snapped? ... Now carbon forks are another story & I've seen them break...

True, I've never seen it and I was pretty nervous about a carbon fork but I've gotten used to it. The reason I wouldn't have carbon behind me is because, while I seem to miss everything with the front end, you ought to see the seat stays on the CSi. I seem to be repainting gouges on them all the time because I can't seem to miss anything with them. I have no idea what happens back there because I never seem to hear it. Except for the chunk of metal strap I picked up last spring - I thought I tore my derailleur off but I only grooved the inside of the stays on both sides. Say what you will about Ksyriums, the cheap version's spokes can take a beating. In that particular case I know I would have been changing out the carbon.

I admit that part of me still thinks that carbon is just a fad like Biopace rings so take my words at what they're worth. It's a purely personal opinion.

[cpg]

Gee, does anyone personally know of a case where carbon seat stays or carbon chain stays have snapped? I've seen steel and aluminum chain stays crack. Never a seat stay yet. Now carbon forks are another story & I've seen them break. Scary stuff, ambulance and all that. Then again, how many of us ride carbon forks?

I have. Everything can break. Regarding who rides carbon forks, not me.

Curt

[Climb01742]

yes, like carbon forks, this internet thing is just a passing fad...and them funny flying machines...and those tiny things folks talk into...and that box with pictures and sound coming out of it... :p :rolleyes: :beer:

[Big Dan]

Climb you know I respect your diversified knowledge of bikes and brands.
Please tell me my Corsa or yours would be better served with a carbon rear???
Maybe your Mx??? Carbon forks like Alpha Q , Reynolds are great, carbon rears.....fail to impress me... :confused:

[cpg]

yes, like carbon forks, this internet thing is just a passing fad...and them funny flying machines...and those tiny things folks talk into...and that box with pictures and sound coming out of it... :p :rolleyes: :beer:

Huh?

Curt

[Climb01742]

big dan, we are in violent agreement! my comment was about carbon *forks* specifically and only. i agree about carbon ST...my IF ti crown jewel has 'em and every ride i wish it didn't...there is this ever so slight "mush" in the rear triangle when i try to "jump". no more carbon STs for me. but i am a BIG fan of carbon forks...which i personally -- and i know i'm almost alone in this -- like better than steel. i'm not saying i'm right, but it's what i like. :rolleyes:

[Climb01742]

I admit that part of me still thinks that carbon is just a fad like Biopace rings so take my words at what they're worth. It's a purely personal opinion.

curt, my post was a tongue-in-cheek response to tom...sorry it got posted below yours, which made it seem like a response to your post. sorry.

but for me, carbon forks are an improvement over steel forks...again, not saying it's a fact, just a personal preference.

[Tom]

Not only do I have a carbon fork on the thing, I ran out and bought carbon bars last year. If I have carbon, I want it where I can keep my eye on it....

[Climb01742]

tom, i have a carbon bar and stem, too...though i got the bar (modolo curvissimo) for its shape, not its weight...my favorite bars are still deda newtons...but i was just joshing with you... :rolleyes:

[93legendti]

yes, like carbon forks, this internet thing is just a passing fad...and them funny flying machines...and those tiny things folks talk into...and that box with pictures and sound coming out of it... :p :rolleyes: :beer:

LMAO, I have carbon bars too...as well as carbon seat posts.

[OldDog]

I have a big box of carbon copies that have endured.

[vaxn8r]

True, I've never seen it and I was pretty nervous about a carbon fork but I've gotten used to it. The reason I wouldn't have carbon behind me is because, while I seem to miss everything with the front end, you ought to see the seat stays on the CSi...

I admit that part of me still thinks that carbon is just a fad like Biopace rings so take my words at what they're worth. It's a purely personal opinion.
Well, I have some 30K miles on my OCLV and another 3K on my new Calfee...so far so good. No SS or CS damage to speak of. Maybe in the next 30-40K so I'll keep checking, and now worrying. Thanks a lot! ;) ;)

Climb, do you think it's the carbon stays or the ST? I think it's the latter which gives that ever so slight feel of "mush" when you stomp on it.

[93legendti]

I also think it is the ST stays being "mushy".

[Climb01742]

Climb, do you think it's the carbon stays or the ST? I think it's the latter which gives that ever so slight feel of "mush" when you stomp on it.

vax, i'm just guessing, but i think it's the pivot...my parlee has carbon stays/no pivot, and no slight "mush" (in fact, just the opposite...it really jumps)...so your distinction may be right on.

[93legendti]

ditto for my OCLV

[Larry]

I saw a Colnago steel outfitted with Campy Record at the Bike Mart today.

ABSOLUTELY GORGEOUS........ understated paint scheme.

The rider is from Wyoming (Jackson Hole), and he loves his steel bikes, period. :banana: :cool: :banana:

[jerk]

it's not about the material...it's about what the builder is trying to achieve. all the charachteristics one puts upon a given material can be achieved using just about any other modern frame building material.....carbon stays were originally introduced by pinarello on their prince to stiffen up the rear end of the bike without sacrificing weight or ride quality....alan aluminum frames were flexy noodles......you can't ride the jerk's steel spx merckx kermesse bike more than 100km without needing to visit both a dentist and a chiropractor. carbon is a great material, aluminum is a great material. steel is a great material, titanium is a great material....if done properly any and all of the above can build a wonderful bicycle.

jerk

[Dekonick]

Touche

I still like the look of Ti and Steel - and the ride of MY bikes.

[Orin]

If you already have a steel bike, definitely go for Ti. Used Legends can be had for a lot less than new - around $1300 for a good one :) The larger sizes may be way stiff, but the 56cm I have is as close to "buttery smooth" as any road bike I've had.

Oh yeah, my 55cm Ti Rapid Tour is still for sale.

Orin.

[Climb01742]

it's not about the material...it's about what the builder is trying to achieve. all the charachteristics one puts upon a given material can be achieved using just about any other modern frame building material.....carbon stays were originally introduced by pinarello on their prince to stiffen up the rear end of the bike without sacrificing weight or ride quality....alan aluminum frames were flexy noodles......you can't ride the jerk's steel spx merckx kermesse bike more than 100km without needing to visit both a dentist and a chiropractor. carbon is a great material, aluminum is a great material. steel is a great material, titanium is a great material....if done properly any and all of the above can build a wonderful bicycle.jerk

ah, the kinder, gentler, more diplomatic senor...is it the spirit of the holidays...or did mrs jerk really really like her gifts? :beer: ;) ;) ;) whichever...happy new year, jerk-issimo!

[dbrk]

I concur with el senor but would also add that you might consider another style of riding. If you build a ti bike in the design of your steel bike...well, that's two too much the same for me. There's more to cycling than replicating fit and riding bikes designed to be virtually identical. I mean, sure there will be some differences when you change materials and it strikes me as a fun thing to do but only _after_ you have a second bike that just fits and rides differently from the first. If you live in an urban place, how about a singler or a basket bike---yes, a basket bike: I rode all over Mt Diablo in Walnut Creek on one with muddy trails and crazy descents and climbs and we had a GREAT time: no clips or straps or clipless, just big flat pedals and swept back albatross bars, gosh, it was fantastic. Or how about a rough stuffer with 650B wheels, you can use modern bits if the oldschool thing doesn't suit you. Or how about simply a relaxed design rather than a fastboy? My point is simple enough: there is more than one way to ride a bicycle that is really really fun. It's not really the materials, it's the design _and_ the use.

dbrk

[sspielman]

.....carbon stays were originally introduced by pinarello on their prince to stiffen up the rear end of the bike without sacrificing weight or ride quality....

jerk

Actually, carbon stays were first introduced by Carrera on their Hercules RC model. This was their solution to a request from Michele Bartoli when he was riding for Team Asics (and won the World Cup that year). The purpose of that design was to provide a light frame with some vibration damping. The design was a success, as it is the most prevalent construction format in today's professional peloton.

[BigDaddySmooth]

Just exactly what does "buttery smooth" mean anyways? I get the impression that it implies a soft, noodle-like ride, one that absorbs every flaw in the road and acts like a shock absorber when you get out of the saddle for any reason. I only weigh 150# and usually ride with tires >130 psi and both my Della Santa and Fina Estampa ride smoothly but with the appropriate stiffness that I think most of us like in our rides. My DS in particular soaks up the road without the limpness of a too smooth frame. That is one reason I've avoided Ti...I feel like Ti would be too sluggish compared with a fine steel frameset. However, I imagine Ti can be overbuilt and thus too stiff but then you pay for the added weight penalty. While it is true that Ti will not rust, how many of us ride that much in the rain as to rust out a steel frame anyway? I just hop on my computrainer when it is raining out. :banana: :banana:

[dbrk]

Actually, carbon stays were first introduced by Carrera on their Hercules RC model. This was their solution to a request from Michele Bartoli when he was riding for Team Asics (and won the World Cup that year). The purpose of that design was to provide a light frame with some vibration damping. The design was a success, as it is the most prevalent construction format in today's professional peloton.

Carrera's design differs from most of what we see today. They split the seat stays near the top rather than created a wishbone-ish design. I had a Carrera Giove, a rather nice bike for all it's zooty odd duck look, at least to my tastes. But none of the materials or design initiative such as these carbon stays were a significant improvement in terms of ride. The fit was fine, the design not unsensible but I remember vividly riding this high-tech masterpiece hard on a Saturday and, wonder of wonders, riding hard the next day on my RB-1. I so much preferred the RB-1 that I gave up on the Carrera and the fiction (in my mind) that such material changes are even half as important as geometries and fit.

dbrk

[Climb01742]

My DS in particular soaks up the road without the limpness of a too smooth frame. That is one reason I've avoided Ti...I feel like Ti would be too sluggish compared with a fine steel frameset.

BDS--this is what must drive framebuilders batty...you see, i find steel sluggish compared to a good ti (or carbon or alu) frame (with the exception of a steel marcelo)...it is, however, true that a noodly ti frame (like my now dust gathering ghisallo) is sluggish vs. good steel...so...if you and i were to both talk to the same builder...we'd both make statements and convey ride impressions that were very true to our own experience...but would be diametrically opposed...two "truth" from the same set of "facts"...that's why i pity frame builders...how do they figure out rider input...your sluggiush is my jump...you say po-ta-toe, i say po-tot-to...and we're both right! ;)

[sspielman]

Carrera's design differs from most of what we see today. They split the seat stays near the top rather than created a wishbone-ish design. I had a Carrera Giove, a rather nice bike for all it's zooty odd duck look, at least to my tastes. But none of the materials or design initiative such as these carbon stays were a significant improvement in terms of ride. The fit was fine, the design not unsensible but I remember vividly riding this high-tech masterpiece hard on a Saturday and, wonder of wonders, riding hard the next day on my RB-1. I so much preferred the RB-1 that I gave up on the Carrera and the fiction (in my mind) that such material changes are even half as important as geometries and fit.

dbrk

I suppose that Bartoli and his pro-peloton brethren *could * revert to steel bikes to get the ride quality they were seeking, but the fact remains that they need a competitive machine. I would expect that there is a 4-5 lb difference in weight between Bartoli's Hercules and the typical RB1..... This weight difference may not be important an a hard sunday recreational ride but definitely is significant when launching an attack up the Mur du Huy against the sport's best, hungriest and most drugged.....

[William]

Just exactly what does "buttery smooth" mean anyways? I get the impression that it implies a soft, noodle-like ride, one that absorbs every flaw in the road and acts like a shock absorber when you get out of the saddle for any reason. I only weigh 150# and usually ride with tires >130 psi and both my Della Santa and Fina Estampa ride smoothly but with the appropriate stiffness that I think most of us like in our rides. My DS in particular soaks up the road without the limpness of a too smooth frame. That is one reason I've avoided Ti...I feel like Ti would be too sluggish compared with a fine steel frameset.

Since I coined the "Buttery Smooth" phrase in relation to my experience on AR's 65 cm Ti Legend. The term referred more to how the Ti smoothed out the road buzz compared to the steel & alum I ride. If this frame felt flexy or mushy, I would have used the term "noodle" or "wet noodley". Believe me, at 250 - 260 lbs, I know what "noodley" feels like. This Ti frame did NOT feel like a noodle. It wasn't as stiff as I would like, but plenty stiff for the majority of riders out there. I'm sure that there are plenty of "mushy-noodley-flexy" Ti frames out there, but AR's Ti Legend is certainly not one of them. :no:

William :)

Time to start a Glossary section on the forum. :rolleyes: ;)

[dbrk]

I suppose that Bartoli and his pro-peloton brethren *could * revert to steel bikes to get the ride quality they were seeking, but the fact remains that they need a competitive machine. I would expect that there is a 4-5 lb difference in weight between Bartoli's Hercules and the typical RB1..... This weight difference may not be important an a hard sunday recreational ride but definitely is significant when launching an attack up the Mur du Huy against the sport's best, hungriest and most drugged.....

I find no comparison between my own riding preferences and style and those of the pro peloton. I don't ride competitively (be it in races, club, or in any other fashion, even personal) so why would I care how the pros ride or what they ride other than as a curiosity? One thing is certain: I know that the bicycling industry will try to sell me "what the pros ride," or some approximation or more expensive even more zooty version of such things (the too-light-for-the-UCI Cervelo comes to mind, just as an example). As a matter of academic skepticism I would like to believe that I cannot be bought with advertising but as a matter of pure curmudgeonliness I resist their manipulations with a certain irreverent and recalcitrant passion.

That Americans are not the Dutch is perfectly clear to me. The Dutch actually ride bikes, we (the few of us Americans that ride bikes) _go for rides on bikes_, at least mostly that's the case. I wish that were different but I am resigned. As for these very zooty carbon stay bikes, I am curious and sometimes even tempted, but that is because I love all things cycling even this stuff that has nothing to do with the real me me and likely has no real effect on the quality of a ride that I would take. To each his own, of course. But the Walter Mitty factor is an enormous influence on cycling for middle-aged or whatever recreational riders. Carbon seat stays are a nice thing to spend your money on, perhaps if you like the aesthetic, even if you believe that they enhance the ride but those are three reasons I would not bother with them.

dbrk

[dsimon]

alright i get the point however i think were getting a little out og control my question was an a or b answer and i x,yand z thanks everyone have a happy new year :argue: too much egg nogg and testosterone :no: :beer: :beer:

[Climb01742]

in certain instances, couldn't carbon seatstays also be a bit of a crutch? especially on some alu frames...trying to mellow out alu harshness via a shortcut...versus how a pegoretti does it...with whatever mojo dario knows for making a fina and a CCKMP ride very sweetly without any carbon.

just to be clear, i don't think the crutch theory applies to any serottas...ben's/kelly's use of carbon ST strikes me as a design decision, not laziness or lack of skill...which is how it strikes me on countless euro frames...where carbon seatstays seem to get stuck on everything.

[csb]

not everyone wants to witness your wifes paunch

[Tom]

dbrk didn't like the ride of the Carrera because it didn't suit how he rides, not so much because the bike wasn't any good. Likewise, I don't like carbon where I can't see it but other people love it. Shucks, some guy even touted his OCLV! On a Serotta forum! I'm aghast!

All I want is to ride my sluggish steel bike out of doors. I'll settle for that.

[jerk]

Actually, carbon stays were first introduced by Carrera on their Hercules RC model. This was their solution to a request from Michele Bartoli when he was riding for Team Asics (and won the World Cup that year). The purpose of that design was to provide a light frame with some vibration damping. The design was a success, as it is the most prevalent construction format in today's professional peloton.


you're right bartoli's carrera was the first the jerk forgot about that bike.....

[GoJavs]

Here, here, Tom! All of mine are steel by choice. Now, if I was a pro, I'd ride whatever they'd give me... :cool:

I also like/need my bikes quiet. I ride often with my brother, and he'll drop me or lose me if I show up with a bike that creaks... :fight:




dbrk didn't like the ride of the Carrera because it didn't suit how he rides, not so much because the bike wasn't any good. Likewise, I don't like carbon where I can't see it but other people love it. Shucks, some guy even touted his OCLV! On a Serotta forum! I'm aghast!

All I want is to ride my sluggish steel bike out of doors. I'll settle for that.

[vandeda]

That Americans are not the Dutch is perfectly clear to me. The Dutch actually ride bikes, we (the few of us Americans that ride bikes) _go for rides on bikes_, at least mostly that's the case. dbrk

dbrk,

Could u help my pea-sized brain? What's the difference here?

csiowner ... I wish I could help 'ya more, but I haven't ridden a Ti bike. My road bikes are lugged steel and lugged carbon. I love the comfort of the carbon, just takes the harshness out of the ride, much more comfortable than my steel ride (which is important since I commute on the Centurion and sees a lot more miles than the carbon). However, my steelie was a $400 nothing special Centurion from '88 that I got for free. I trust that a good steelie would ride much better than the Centurion.

My recommendation ... try riding a bunch of steel & Ti bikes if possible. Got any Serotta dealers in the area for a test ride? After test rides .... choose the one you would want to be riding day in day out ... whether it be steel or Ti, Serotta or not ... you're gonna be the one riding it, so forget what other people may think of the bike.

Dan - breathing a bit too much spackle, lead dust, etc.

[Big Dan]

Van , even being born in Long Island I have no clue what you are saying.. :confused:

Is that stuff good to snort???Help???

:fight:

[vandeda]

Big Dan,

you talking to me? I'm doing work on my house including sheetrocking, taping and spackling. Sanding the spackle can be quite a fun experience (I wear a mask most of the time). But, being my house was built in '47 .... can we say lead paint? so imagine cutting into a wall with a dremel tool (w/plaster cutting attachment) ... that's quite the dust storm.

I always joke that that's why I'm being moody or forgetting something ... it's the lead dust :D And since I have the week off ... lotsa work going on

Sorry fer being off-topic
Dan - Mr. Lead dust

[Big Dan]

Sorry to hear that..........
There's one thing I hate more than painting.....and that's moving...... :D

Good luck and get some fresh air.... :beer:

For a moment I thought about going back to Plainview.........maybe I was missing out....

[weisan]

Big Dan,

you talking to me? I'm doing work on my house including sheetrocking, taping and spackling. Sanding the spackle can be quite a fun experience (I wear a mask most of the time). But, being my house was built in '47 .... can we say lead paint? so imagine cutting into a wall with a dremel tool (w/plaster cutting attachment) ... that's quite the dust storm.

I always joke that that's why I'm being moody or forgetting something ... it's the lead dust :D And since I have the week off ... lotsa work going on

Sorry fer being off-topic
Dan - Mr. Lead dust

Don't forget asbestos. :D

[vandeda]

Don't forget asbestos. :D

Oh yeah ... thanks for reminding me ... after licking my walls to get my daily dose of lead, I like to proceed with snorting some asbestos :D

Dan

[vaxn8r]

dbrk didn't like the ride of the Carrera because it didn't suit how he rides, not so much because the bike wasn't any good. Likewise, I don't like carbon where I can't see it but other people love it. Shucks, some guy even touted his OCLV! On a Serotta forum! I'm aghast!

All I want is to ride my sluggish steel bike out of doors. I'll settle for that.
hey, HEY HEY. I wasn't touting my OCLV on the Serotta forum. I was simply pointing out that I've never had any trouble whatsoever with CF seatstays (or chainstay) in the last 8 years. I've never heard of a single instance of a CF SS failing...doesn't mean it's never happened. We're probably a thousand times more likely to crash from a blown front tire on a decent or, heaven forbid, roll one of those trillion $$ Dugast sewups before a CF seatstay crumbles.

Sometimes our fears are rational and sometimes they aren't. Honestly I was just trying to offer some perspective. :)

I know you know all this Tom....just trying to keep ahead of Dirtdigger on my # posts ;)

[Air Jer]

It has been a while since I have posted but I log on & read from time to time. I must say I miss Big Mac and where did DNOVO go?
The old proverb says that when the pupil is ready the teacher will appear. In agreement with DBRK when he earlier stated about trying a different style of bike. I enjoy my Waterford 1200 a great deal but checking the geometry chart I see that the angles are indeed very steep and even more so than I thought. (Funny it doesn't ride squirrely) I have had my sights set upon a Legend for a few years and with the last tuition payment for my daughter's college education coming in about a year, I have begun to think about the Legend once again. But wait... perhaps DBRK is correct in my case. Maybe I should contact Grant Peterson and order up a Ramboullet. Methinks with those relaxed angles, long chain stays, and a B17 to sit on I will have found nirvana when it comes to buttery smooth ride.
On the other hand, that Legend I once rode sure was sweet. Decisions, decisions, decisions I have to make. Oh well, I have a year and whatever I decide I will error and get too short a stem.

[Climb01742]

a "race" inspired frame is no less comfortable or pleasureable than frames inspired by other desires. no one should ride a frame simply because a pro rides one. but i personally find great pleasure in trying to ride fast (note "trying" :rolleyes: ) and i find race-inspired geometry very comfortable. i admire douglas' wide-ranging tastes in styles of frames...but i sometimes sense an underlying criticism (sometimes mild, sometimes stronger than mild) of race-inspired frames. they aren't superior to other styles...but they aren't inferior either. one could do far worse than owning a CSi and a legend.

[dbrk]

a "race" inspired frame is no less comfortable or pleasureable than frames inspired by other desires....sometimes sense an underlying criticism (sometimes mild, sometimes stronger than mild) of race-inspired frames. they aren't superior to other styles...but they aren't inferior either.

On the first point we will simply have to disagree. A race-inspired frame as comfortable as a well-appointed, made for the task audax? Uhhh...no. That is at least half the point of the design of an audax; while in contrast a race-inspired bike is about fast, not comfort as such. Of course, many current race-inspired frames are built as if they were not.

Re: my underlying criticism. I have three basic gripes about race-inspired frames that have nothing to do with We the Geekdom, or mostly not with us, since all of us seem to agree that all bikes are fine.
1. Too many older folks (I mean more than 35, how's that?) walk into a bike shop knowing they don't really want a hybrid and they are sold a race-inspired bike (usually too small, btw, which I have seen only about a zillion times but not at _your_ LBS, I am sure). This bike is not as comfortable as it should be or it is modified to be comfortable and now it is truly "race-inspired" because it's sort of not as good as it could be. The Brits get this and that's why we see audax style bikes in magazines about racers. How come we don't?
2. Race-inspired bikes are fair weather bikes because they rarely take a tire worthy of much else, almost never take fenders as an option, and are designed for fast...so they are simply not very versatile. Sure, you can ride your fender-free fastboy in all weathers but no one likes to ride on your wheel.
3. Race-inspired bikes are marketed with a culture that discourages cycling: Martian outfits that include the ubiquitous helmet/sunglasses face and plenty of other bits that discourage, intimidate, and draw hostility towards it because, well, "serious" cyclists are being sold a sub-culture. Normal people have a hard enough time riding bikes without the industry selling Americans all-geek-all-the-time.

Of course, we are the converted, the diehards, the choir of geeks. Many of us already ride in more than one style, in more than one sort of outfit or what have you, and most of us are old (or just mature enough) not to care much about the fashion and marketing, or so we would like to think. I admit too to being more iBOB in temperment than "competition bicycle" guy but I hang here because 1. I like the people and 2. I like competition bicyles. I register this "criticism" because I think it's useful to think about bicycles in more than one way and there is just so much "race-inspired" affirmation that I can stand before I think it's marketing or nonsense. So be it, I will go be quiet now...No harm, no foul. May everyone ride tons, but we already do!

dbrk

[vaxn8r]

Of course, we are the converted, the diehards, the choir of geeks. Many of us already ride in more than one style, in more than one sort of outfit or what have you, and most of us are old (or just mature enough) not to care much about the fashion and marketing, or so we would like to think.
Thanks DBRK. Your point of view is refreshing even if most of simply enjoy riding the same "hammer" everyday.

For some reason your post also reminded me how much I like wearing black socks.

[vandeda]

2. Race-inspired bikes are fair weather bikes because they rarely take a tire worthy of much else, almost never take fenders as an option, and are designed for fast...so they are simply not very versatile. Sure, you can ride your fender-free fastboy in all weathers but no one likes to ride on your wheel.

dbrk

Dave, I agree with much of what u say, and is why I love my Centurion ... it's just so comfortable & stable. The bike is actually too large and has a really short stem (60 mm), but for some reason it fit me when I got it (it was given to me). But the geometry is so beautiful. Responsive enough, but can carry 20 lbs on the rear rack & nothing up front, or 20 lbs on the front rack & nothing out back, and still be ridden w/no hands at even low speeds.

Oh ... but I digress. I guess I don't fully realize what you're saying here. Let me explain. I run full-fenders on my Centurion (though the front fender doesn't come down far enough and water still splashes on the bottom bracket ... ugh! Any good recommendations?), and 700x23 Vredestein Tri-Comps by decision because I liked them so much on my Calfee. They've performed flawlessly for everything I thrown at them. 30 lbs of additional weight ... no problem. Rain ... no problems. Cold weather ... no problems. Cold weather (37F that is) in the rain ... no problems. I only had a problem once. That's when I was only running ~60 psi (way below the recommended 145) w/15 lbs on back and I was sitting on the saddle (I didn't see the pothole because it was night, though I do run a good light from mtn biking, but I wasn't paying enough attention) and I hit a *huge* pothole. Huge as in when I saw it in daylight the next time out, I was *very* thankful I didn't go down hard. Result? Tire was intact ... tube was intact, but I had a flatspot on my rim. But, the low pressure was the main reason for that. I'm sure my 125 lb weight helps a lot. But I see no reason to run any other tire. These tires and the Grand Prix's I had before (before the cords in the sidewall started tearing for no reason) have worked perfectly. When I get my Vanilla ... these are the tires I plan on running because I see no reason for anything else.

Whenever I need anything more extreme tire wise, I pull out my mountain bike with studded tires and hit the snow/ice. What else do I need?

Dan

[Orin]

Maybe I should contact Grant Peterson and order up a Ramboullet. Methinks with those relaxed angles, long chain stays, and a B17 to sit on I will have found nirvana when it comes to buttery smooth ride.
On the other hand, that Legend I once rode sure was sweet. Decisions, decisions, decisions I have to make. Oh well, I have a year and whatever I decide I will error and get too short a stem.

Not much difference comfort wise between my 58cm Rambouillet and 56cm Legend!

I always thought I was going slower than I really was on the Ti Rapid Tour. The opposite on the CIII. On the Legend, I often can't tell... put more effort in and the numbers on the computer go up, but it feels the same. On the climbs, it doesn't feel like I'm going that fast, but I was keeping up better with a rider who had been pulling away from me when I was on the Rambouillet.

Orin.

[Climb01742]

douglas,
as always, i find myself in total agreement with some of what you say...and mild disagreement with some...and in complete admiration of your passion and articulation in expressing your views.
perhaps i am in the minority, but when i try to ride more upright, it IS less comfortable and feels, to me, less efficient. i'm sure it's almost all muscle memory...and that with time, i could find a more upright position comfortable. BUT...put me on two bikes today...one race-inspired and one more upright...and handsdown, the race-inspired bike is far more enjoyable FOR ME to ride.
agree totally that many shops put people on the wrong bikes. no argument there. you're dead on.
i ride my MXL is the rain, the snow, the crappiest weather i can stand. i should put fenders on. i'm guilty; i'm lazy. but 99% of my rides are solo. the only person who comes home filthy is me. :p my MXL is my homage to the belgian hardmen...and my feeble copy of them.
i ride in all the silly get-up. i confess. the shorts, the jerseys, all the euro-poser stuff. but douglas, i'm 50 years old and i have either run, ridden, swam or lifted every day i was healthy enough or not injured since i was 12. i'm a child of oregon, of bowerman, prefontaine (sp?), hayward field, mt hood...i breathe therefore i sweat. 38 years of pushing my body has given me the dues-paid to dress like an athlete. yes, some folks wear lycra and test its outer edges of elasticity...but some of us, a whole bunch of us, earn the right every day to dress as we wish, as makes us feel good, as helps us do our sport better. there probably are some days when i look like a fool...so damn what? it makes me happy and i feel i've earned the right.
douglas, i write this with fondness and respect...and i think in two very different fields, we daily strive for an intellectual "truth"...sometimes you're sneaky ;)...with one hand, you'll say, oh, this is just my opinion, just one point of view...but with the other hand, you'll very forcefully hammer home your passionately held views, which at moments leave very room for doubt or disagreement...there's this interesting tension in much of what you write...i see it (forgive me here) as a tension between the more open, many roads to mecca yogi side of you...and the more pedantic, lecturing, paper-grading, this is what's right professor side of you...do you ever feel that tension or am i crazy here? the yogi side says, there are many kinds of frames to ride, while the professor side says, more forcefully, that the french style is really the better style. that's a cool opinion to have...but its one of many cool opinions to have. man, i wish the snow would melt faster, so i could ride, instead of writing about riding. peace.

[William]

1. Too many older folks (I mean more than 35, how's that?) walk into a bike shop knowing they don't really want a hybrid and they are sold a race-inspired bike (usually too small, btw, which I have seen only about a zillion times but not at _your_ LBS, I am sure).

Though I know that this does happen, but there are also a large percentage of those same riders who come into a shop and freely "choose" the sporty bike because it looks cool. It's like going into a car dealership and looking at a mini van and then seeing the Viper (or what ever hot rod floats your boat). The practical side of your brain knows that the mini van is going to be more comfortable and versatile, but your heart says "DANG that Viper looks sweet". Then you picture yourself ripping up the back county roads or melting rubber from stop light to stop light. Most folks follow their heart. They get the racier machine. Some love it, some realize they should have gone with that relaxed geometry mini van.
The bottom line is that they buy what they think they want at the time. A salesman can "steer" them to certain types of bikes, but in the end, they make the choice.

But what is an in-experienced cyclist to do?

As we have seen many time on this forum and others, there are many approaches & opinions to cycling set ups. How does a first time buyer to higher end bikes sort through the conflicting info to buy a bike? It's going to be hit or miss if they don't know exactly what they need or want. They might hate that audax set-up after a while and find they prefer the "racer-boy" ride. Then again, they may go the other way.

If they don't know what they want, it's Trial by fire. How many "experienced" riders here have purchased wheels, cranks, frames etc. thinking they would be the bees knees, and then discovered they hated them? Quite a few I would think, look at the classified section of this forum.

Bottom line is: Ride what you like. But getting to that point involves trial & error= finding what you like. It can be an expensive endeavor, but every one on this forum has been through it.

No one is 100% right, not even the Jerk. ;)

William

[sspielman]

I find no comparison between my own riding preferences and style and those of the pro peloton. I don't ride competitively (be it in races, club, or in any other fashion, even personal) so why would I care how the pros ride or what they ride other than as a curiosity? One thing is certain: I know that the bicycling industry will try to sell me "what the pros ride," or some approximation or more expensive even more zooty version of such things (the too-light-for-the-UCI Cervelo comes to mind, just as an example). As a matter of academic skepticism I would like to believe that I cannot be bought with advertising but as a matter of pure curmudgeonliness I resist their manipulations with a certain irreverent and recalcitrant passion.


dbrk

I think that much more is being read into my original statement about the equipment used by the pros....but the idea is not to be offhandedly discounted either. I was merely pointing out the first example of the use of carbon stays with a modern aluminum frame, the reason for using the material and the rather subjective conclusion that the design was a success based on the proliferation of its use in the pro peloton.
I would not suggest that the use of a product by some pro guarantees its suitability for any purpose....Sponsorship arrangements, endorsements geopolitics and planetary alignment all come into play in the selection of equipment by pros. However, if one is doing- or aspiring- to ride in a similar fashion, it is never a bad idea to take tips from the people who really know how to do it right. That is, the use of a product in the professional ranks doesn't guarntee that it is the best, but you can also bet that it is not the worst. These people earn their living by riding well. They will not use any product that prevents them from performing their job. In many cases they will seek out products from suppliers other than their sponsors-and disguise them- to accomplish that end.

[dbrk]

These people earn their living by riding well. They will not use any product that prevents them from performing their job. In many cases they will seek out products from suppliers other than their sponsors-and disguise them- to accomplish that end.

Your points are well-taken, conveyed persuasively, and I find myself in near-complete agreement...but perhaps a bit of the point quoted above (which is why I quoted it; since the rest of your insight had me nodding, nodding...).

I'm hardly an authority on pros choosing their bikes and bits and the years have shown us that many of the elite riders have the option of re-badging and cherry-picking their stuff. Pascal Richard in the Olympic road race comes to mind; gold being a fine color for a Serotta as a consequence. But nowadays with bikes more distinctive by brand (when they were all, more or less, Reynolds 531 disguises were far easier...) and the idea is to sell what the pros ride and showcase their stuff as our possible stuff, I think there is likely more pressure on pros to accept and deal with the sponsor's offerings. Sure, some are exempt from this pressure but I know personally more than one pro who would far rather ride another brand of bicycle and has certainly no say in the matter. Some of the stuff the pros are compelled to ride is downright dangerously light or frail, as it were. While I might wish I were as capable on the bike as they are, I'm sure glad that I don't have to ride their stuff in many cases, no?

Just another thought here, no particular passionate insistence or the like.
(Passionate insistence being a fun thing, not to be taken too seriously after all.)

dbrk

[weisan]

WOW! We are having a great discussion here. Another classic. The wisdom in getting advice is knowing when to take it. I have benefited tremendously from the knowledge of the people here. I take that and then pair it down to what applies to my unique situation to make the best personal decision. Over the course of less than three years since I started back on cycling again after a 10-year break, I have gone from owning a 1990 Cannondale to the present day of having one steel, one carbon, one Ti in my stable. I did not have to spend much to get to where I am now because I knew exactly where I am heading and had planned for it. I couldn't be happier with what I already have. Each of the bikes with different materials have given me a taste of what's possible, what's unqiue to the design and a nice change everytime I go out and ride. I will continue to shuffle things around, change bikes, try different things in the years ahead, possibly in months you would see some changes. But that's part of the fun about cycling. I continue in search of that feeling, the perfect ride if you will. But I have drawn parameters around that endeavor based on my family situation.

My point is: Just do it! Don't have to ask. Understand that you can have anything that you ask, if you know how to get it through creative means. There's no end to our pursuit of happiness in cycling, not by any external factors. Why should there be? Go for it!

Ti or Steel you say? Ti! :D

weisan

[sspielman]

Some of the stuff the pros are compelled to ride is downright dangerously light or frail, as it were.

dbrk

I find this a very interesting discussion.......Usually, the closer the opinions, the more passionate the discussion, as that is what is required to make a fine distinction....but I digress...

A couple of years ago I had the opportunity to buy a surplus Saeco team Cannondale frame in my size. The new models were out and the CAAD 5's were surplus. I made the deal and when the frame arrived, I was surprized at how heavy the frame was...about .75 lbs heavier than expected. I haven't doggedly pursued the point, but I am left to conclude that in many cases the equipment that the pros receive is specially designed to be *heavier* than the consumer product for durability reasons!
On a different- but related- subject....
Several years ago I had the great fortune to be able to stumble around the mechanic's area at a couple of stages of the Vuelta. It is surprising how much disguised equipment is in use. The methods range from simple to sophisticated....Some examples:
Lots of Veloflex tubulars with black marker obscuring the brand...
An AMAZING variety of sizes, tubing types and other details in the Once team Giant frames (you know...the ones that only come in 3 sizes....)
Lots of re-branding of saddles (I had no idea that Selle San Marco made the Flite!)
And one especially for Senor Jerk......Some "Michelin" clinchers with the green sidewalls that were really tubulars...complete with the "Dugast" ink stamp...

[Dr. Doofus]

get a lugged Cinelli Supecorsa for cheap, ride it to death, and then spend what was saved on a vacation

[weisan]

The doc is no doofus. I just got back from doing a lunch ride using the cheap O' unknown maker -- lugged steel SLX bike I got from Frank running on older year 105 components. It's a blast!

Off-topic: I am still looking to find out who the framebuilder is. I know it's from Italy and the paint job is by this guy named Dossena Carlo. BTW, Nick Crumpton, an upcoming carbon framemaker happens to live around the neighborhood. So I stop by and chat with him a bit. Nice guy, very talented. He's heading up to Houston in a few weeks for the framebuilder show. If anyone wants me to check him out or something, let me know. :D

Picture of the Italian lugged steel:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=4171&highlight=SLX+lugged

[hooverone]

So the question is csiowner what have you decided?


Jim

[Climb01742]

he's probably decided we're a bunch of lunatics...or worse. :rolleyes:

[Big Dan]

I think CSI's head is spinning....better think twice before asking a loaded question like that. Maybe he should have also asked for what components to use...campy vs shimano...
then it would have been fun...... :p
Personally I like the Doctor's prescription for a Cinelli, the only thing I don't understand is why the bad rap on that frame??? looks decent enough :cool:

[dbrk]

I've recently had the opportunity to see the innards of a few brazed lugged frames, some Italian, others American and Japanese made. Virtually every Japanese frame had brazing penetration that would leave you confident of their quality and durability. One of the American frames was from a well-known builder: scary how little penetration came through and the frame had actually broken in an accident that, well, should not have broken the frame, merely pretzel'd it. The Italian frames, I am sorry to say, were worst of all: nothing short of a miracle that they tubes stayed put. To get these views you have to do something that you don't really want to do with a bicycle frame: you have to saw it apart and look. I wouldn't advise this generally unless you aren't going to ride the bike again, but you've likely already reached that conclusion.

I won't say whose frames these were but the quality of bicycles, built largely by reputation, is more smoke and mirrors than most of us would have ever thought. There's virtually no way to assess the quality of brazing without looking inside like this; not even unpainted frames tell you all that much. Anyway, my point is that what you see is not what you get, either by name or quality.

On the very bright side of things I did indeed see a level of quality in work that was so far better than others that even a non-torch wielder like myself could easily see the difference.

All of this a propros of the Doctor's comments. None of what I said impunes any frame sold now as "Cinelli" but the experience as a whole has made me more circumspect. Then again, the VAST majority of frames will hold together far longer than any of us, especially those of lugged steel and uncorrupted titanium welds.

dbrk

[the walrus]

My favorites at the moment
C50, any color, but especially black. So Italian, So Beautiful, So Fast, So Race Bike, So...So...!!!

Pinarello DogmaFP, red and white, all of the above. (nice little detail on the top edge of the dropout has me drooling.

And something you probably do not want, but is the absolute nicest bike out there at the moment, a Jeff Jones singlespeed.

P.S. Who cares about fenders! Ride it wet!

[surfbikeswim]

But what is an in-experienced cyclist to do?

As we have seen many time on this forum and others, there are many approaches & opinions to cycling set ups. How does a first time buyer to higher end bikes sort through the conflicting info to buy a bike? It's going to be hit or miss if they don't know exactly what they need or want. They might hate that audax set-up after a while and find they prefer the "racer-boy" ride. Then again, they may go the other way.

If they don't know what they want, it's Trial by fire. How many "experienced" riders here have purchased wheels, cranks, frames etc. thinking they would be the bees knees, and then discovered they hated them? Quite a few I would think, look at the classified section of this forum.

Bottom line is: Ride what you like. But getting to that point involves trial & error= finding what you like. It can be an expensive endeavor, but every one on this forum has been through it.

No one is 100% right, not even the Jerk. ;)

William

William,

This really resonates with me. I am the inexperienced cyclist who has struggled (and still is struggling) to find out what bike to buy and particulary figure out fit issues.

I bought my first real bike at a LBS that didn't fit and was uncomfortable and needed to have stem, bars & seatpost changed to get into to get it close to a Serotta fitter's opinion of fit.

I have just bought one of dbrk's bikes after many helpful emails & a phone call with him. His version of fit is different from the Serotta fit. I will see if this works for me. I do know that I prefer the look of the bikes that Douglas also suggests are more suitable for the style of riding that I like i.e. steel, lugged more relaxed frames. I don't know yet that I will enjoy riding them as well.

I was looking to avoid the expense of trial & error by doing more research but it seems unavoidable.


Ian

[eddief]

Wow. That's one freaky bike designer. Those mt bikes are like half girly mixte things. They are very interesting looking and make me wonder what Jones might imagine for a road bike. Seems as if he could do a sort of mixte/compact road bike that would be unique, comfy and with good performance. How about that curvy ti fork front end?

[Dr. Doofus]

I'm feelin sick, and the fever and sudden withdrawl from training are driving me to the much-feared use of the first person (I hate that guy, and why is he first anyway...if he's me, he's never won anything so I don't know how he gets off being first and it sucks always being in line behind him, but "I" digress)....

There is a simple reason for the Cinelli preference. If one looks around, they are cheap, cheap, cheap! Like a Gios compact or a Mercian Strada, a lugged Supercorsa is sort of the Peavey of still-raceable bikes...bang for the buck, and it'll still last longer than you will...and if you get dropped on a 2k hill, its not the 2-pound difference in the bike....


Anyway, what the Seenyour said holds. Its what the maker does with the material...you can't have a durable, stiff, light, comfy steel bike...but you can have a stiff, durable, and comfy one...you can't have a stiff and light Ti bike...but you can have a medium weight stiffy one or a lightflexycomfy one...you can't have a stiff, light, and comfy carbon bike...no, wait, you can, but carbon sucks because I say so...you can't have a durable AL frame...and AL sucks because I say so...unless you're lucky and someone gives you one to race on because they're stupid enough to give free frames to a bunch of 3's or 2's (and there are...there are...).

I say go for the steel. If you're racing, spend the rest of the money on a Powermeter and a good coach...and if you're not racing it doesn't matter how much your bike weighs and if you have the brains to wipe your bike off and use some touch up paint, the bike won't rust....

"I" wants more chocolate...damn this virus!!!!! But I must feed the I....

Anyway, this is the year of me. If you can say "I like me," then buy me a Mercian...I'll give you the geo, you buy me a bike, because you can say "I like me," you have the money, and I say that me needs another bike, because you like me.

[dbrk]

Doc,
As a matter of relief and when I am not wasting time here (I am currently proof-reading a manuscript that will turn out about 275 printed pages and going completely nuts reading my own prose again and again...which is why I wander over here about every 15 minutes), I go over to the Mercian site. I love Mercians. I have never seen a Mercian I didn't love. Every color, configuration, lug, even the new ones without lugs that pretend not to be Mercians. Baked on stove top enamels are my favorites and with barbershop poles and whacky lugs. I got one on eBay last year for something like $160 for frame and fork. It needed paint so JB put on a perfect Mercian stylin' thing but in JB quality; talk about complete overkill. Still, it is my barbershop pole Mercian and it rides like a charm, all that 531, dang. But I want another one 'cause two of anything THIS good is always better than one.

A guy I know---I'm not kidding about this---just sold his company for...are you all seated?...233 billion dollars. I am not kidding, not exaggerating (even if that has only one "g"). As another pal of mine who knows him too said, "That's real money." Uhhh, no kidding. We now use his name in our house as in, "when I get So-and-So rich I'll..." I know what I would do. I'd buy Mercian, the whole shootin' match. I'd not change one thing about them, not one, and I'd have a whole darn basement full. Two basements full. And I promise to buy you one, Doc, 'cause any man (or two men, depends on how you are feelin'...) who like Mercians is darn okay by me. (BTW, you're right too about the materials thing, a la senor.)

d[er]b[y]r[u.]k[.]

[dsimon]

Make the bad man stop.fine fine ill buy a ti frame without carbon rear stays are you happy :D :D

[vaxn8r]

I'll second the barbershop-pole Mercian. A thing of beauty. Always wished I'd had one too.

[Climb01742]

A guy I know---I'm not kidding about this---just sold his company for...are you all seated?...233 billion dollars. I am not kidding, not exaggerating (even if that has only one "g"). d[er]b[y]r[u.]k[.]

douglas, are you sure that's with a "b" as in billions...and not a "m" as in millions...i don't have a fortune 500 list handy but...unless your friend just sold microsoft...233 BBBBBillion is, well, that is serious money... :rolleyes:

[Climb01742]

you can't have a stiff, light, and comfy carbon bike...no, wait, you can, but carbon sucks because I say so...you can't have a durable AL frame...and AL sucks because I say so...

doc...i blame it on the fever...'cause you're insane my good fellow...ride a parlee and tell me it sucks...or (i dare ya ;) ) tell the senor his c50 sucks...or ride a fina or a CCKMP and tell me they suck...but one thing you are right about...that barber pole paint rocks...so take two aspirin...say three hail dario's...and come to your senses, good doctor!!! :beer:

[dbrk]

douglas, are you sure that's with a "b" as in billions...and not a "m" as in millions...i don't have a fortune 500 list handy but...unless your friend just sold microsoft...233 BBBBBillion is, well, that is serious money... :rolleyes:

That's 2.33 billion...but you know, where you put that decimal, it's still billions and that is likely enough money to buy you a Merican too, Climbpal.
Heck, I'll buy the Forum Ottrotts when that ship comes in...errr...several ships...Don't you think you'd need a whole fleet to manage that much cash?

when you got a bike to ride you have at least as great a chance at real happiness,

dbrk
p.s. leaving aside all that true stuff about family, health, yada, yada...

[Climb01742]

oh, well, just a "measly" 2.33 billion...guess i could scrape on that ;) awhile ago i read an interesting thing about the inflation of what constitutes "f*ck you" money...exactly how much would you need to tell your boss or your biggest client to...it used to be 7 figures...now apparently its well into the 8 figures...hard to even imagine that kind of dough...tho it's fun trying...

[Dr. Doofus]

Hark ye yet again Climb -- the little lower layer. All visible objects, man, are but pasteboard masks. But in each event -- in the listening act, the undoubted deed -- there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth its features from behind the reasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the carbon frame is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think tis naught beyond. But tis enough. It tasks me; it heaps me; I see it in its outrageous strength, with an inscrutable malice sinewing it. That inscrutable thing is chiefly what I hate; and be the carbon frame agent, or be the carbon frame principal, I will wreak that hate upon him. Talk not to me of Parlee, man; I'd strike great Ernesto if he insulted me. For could Colnago do that, then I could do the other.... Who's over me? Steel truth hath no confines....

Attend now, my braves, I have mustered ye all round this forum; and ye mates, flank me with your levers; and ye steel riders, stand there with your lugs; and ye, stout wheelsuckers, ring me in, that I may revive a noble custom of my pedaling fathers before me....Advance, ye mates! Cross your levers full before me!

Now, three to three ye stand. Commmend thee murderous chalices! Ha! Climb, but the deed is done! Drink, ye wheelsuckers! Drink and swear, ye men that man the deathful steel frame's bow -- Death to Carbon Frames! God hunt us all, if we do not hunt Carbon to its death!


And that's all I have to say about that.

[Climb01742]

glad i asked. ;)

hope your students appreciate you.

[Air Jer]

Well I do believe Dr Doofus has a point. I really don't need a new bike even if it is a Cinelli Super Corsa. (By the way, I ride with a guy who bought one inexpensively from Gary Hobbs and he is scary fast) Instead of a new bike I should be content with the Waterford I have. Maybe I will upgrade it some by getting a new stem which most likely will be too short. (Sorry different thread) I have to say Dr Doofus I really don't lead a materialistic life and looking at the Rivendells Mr DBRK (can one put Mr. and DBRK together?) do spin my emotional wheels. I thought I was being fiscally responsible with the thought of a Ramboullet (sp?) Which of the two Doctors to follow?
Back to the original question CSIowner posed that started this thread, I am glad I don't have to choose now because I have become so confused.

[Dr. Doofus]

name the work and passage your Doofus was having fun with, and win his old, uncleaned chain (if robert at college cycle hasn't thrown it away yet)

[Climb01742]

we have billy from stratford on avon calling...he says one of his Henry's...lord knows which...as to who'se yammering...falstaff (he-he) or probably henry hisownself... :confused:

scene...about to go into battle...or a store to return a gift...