Holy crap! . . . difficult for me to believe this!

[BumbleBeeDave]

I just spent about 15 minutes reading this on bicycling.com . . .

http://www.bicycling.com/article/0,6610,s1-3-583-19000-1,00.html

Holy Crap! Even if you believe all of what the police officer says--and I don't--all of this for simply riding two abreast?!?!

BBD

[Bart001]

It'll be impossible to discern the facts.

One uncontroverted (it appears) fact is that Tony said to the cop, "We have as much right to be in the road as you do."

I've never thought it productive to begin an interaction with a police officer in such a manner, regardless of whether one is making a factually and/or legally correct statement. Once a police officer has initiated an interaction with me, I have only one goal -- end it as quickly as possible on a positive note. That statement was never likely to have that result.

ZERO excuses for the out of control cop, but through all the contradictory facts we can probably conclude that neither the officer, nor Tony, behaved appropriately.

[Skrawny]

Wow.

[Dekonick]

This actually happened?!?

:crap:

[Lifelover]

If you refuse a repeated order by a cop when doing as he says will not cause you direct bodily harm, than you deserve whatever beat down he feels is appropriate. ATMO! Like it or not, that is the standing rule.

[paczki]

If you refuse a repeated order by a cop when doing as he says will not cause you direct bodily harm, than you deserve whatever beat down he feels is appropriate. ATMO! Like it or not, that is the standing rule.

Deserve? Dude, you are creepy.

Edit: More scary than creepy I guess.

[mpetry]

Man! That's a bad one. I'll restrain myself from writing what I really thought. Of course you should always be on your very best behavior when interacting with cops. If they stop you, make sure you are in front of the car so everything is on video and can be subpoenaed as evidence.

Here's a case where a Dallas cop detained a person enroute to the hospital for "driving while black". Officer pulled his gun, of course. Guy's mother died. His conduct was impeccable. He was an NFL player. The whole thing was caught on video. Huge embarrassment for the Dallas police department.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/151415-bully-policeman-powell-resigns-under-scrutiny-from-moats-family-flap

After an uproar in the press, the cop quit. He looks like a pimply faced 22 year old with an ego problem. Maybe he'll apply to the Oakland, CA police dept... and they'll hire him.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA

[Louis]

If you refuse a repeated order by a cop when doing as he says will not cause you direct bodily harm, than you deserve whatever beat down he feels is appropriate. ATMO! Like it or not, that is the standing rule.

I can only hope that you are not in a position of authority over anyone or anything, adults at work, children, animals, whatever.

[uno-speedo]

And on a happier note.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWF4x01MkzE&fmt=18

[RPS]

"The problem is, if everybody acquiesces to a violation of our rights, do we still have the right? I would argue that unless the right is exercised, it doesn't exist. Therefore, when a law enforcement officer is enforcing laws that don't exist, it is incumbent upon us to stand up for our rights."

Great in theory, not so much in practice.
Who's won a confrontation with police anyway? :no:

[Dekonick]

You won't win - not immediately.

Best to just comply and insist on a supervisor if needed. Also not a bad idea to call 911if it seems out of place.

[Steve in SLO]

I'm not sure Tony was making friends by repeatedly telling officers he was going to sue.

[bostondrunk]

Both riders are f'ing idiots IMHO. Regardless of whether they were breaking the law originally, an officer requested they pull over, and they didn't, and they essentially tried to ride away from him. That is pretty darn stupid.

[Skrawny]

You don't argue with a charging rhino about right-of-way, and you don't confront a power-tripping cop. In both cases, even if you are correct you will loose.

That being said, some of our most cherished civil liberties came from doing exactly that (the cop thing, not the rhino thing). Rosa Parks refused to get up when the bus driver told her to get out of her seat. I guess it all comes down to how much do you want to fight and what you are fighting for.

-s

[BumbleBeeDave]

Both riders are f'ing idiots IMHO. Regardless of whether they were breaking the law originally, an officer requested they pull over, and they didn't, and they essentially tried to ride away from him. That is pretty darn stupid.

If there's one thing I've learned from almost 30 years in journalism, it's that you don't argue with a cop. You will always lose. The system is heavily rigged in their favor, usually for good reason, though in this case this particular officer sounds like he's back filling on his story mighty fast. If a cop motioned to me like that on my bike I'd pull over and make nice. It can rarely hurt and usually helps. It would have cost these guys all of a minute or two to make nice, then ride for home ASAP and let their friends know to be careful when riding through this little town.

BBD

[Tobias]

Short-term might makes right.
Two idiots on bikes and one moron cop.
Only one had a gun.


Long-term lets hope the kids grown up
and the cop is fired.

[Tobias]

It would have cost these guys all of a minute or two to make nice, then ride for home ASAP and let their friends know to be careful when riding through this little town.

BBDNot only that, but it was a great opportunity to "educate" the cop. Whether he would have been receptive is another matter, but confronting a lunatic with a gun empowered to shoot you is just stupid.

[goonster]

Regardless of whether they were breaking the law originally, an officer requested they pull over, and they didn't

Problem is, according to the cyclists' version of the story (which I don't find entirely implausible), the cop never told them to pull over.

He told them to "get off the ****ing road*".

How would you respond to that?

How can such a direction be complied with?

Afterward, there being no established method to detain multiple cyclists while rolling in a cruiser, the officer acts in a menacing and irrational manner. The cyclists are just trying to avoid injury.

(* = the officer does not deny this in subsequent testimony)

[Fred D]

And on a happier note.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWF4x01MkzE&fmt=18


Great video, thanks for sharing. I wasn't paying attention, do you know what country they were in?

[bostondrunk]

Problem is, according to the cyclists' version of the story (which I don't find entirely implausible), the cop never told them to pull over.

He told them to "get off the ****ing road*".

How would you respond to that?

How can such a direction be complied with?


To be honest, I would have pulled over. If the cop then continued to drive away, I'd start riding again. If I encountered him again and he then decided to pull me over, again, I would have stopped. I'm not saying the cop was right, and yeah he sounds like a total a-hole, but you don't argue with the cops on the road. Like BBD alluded to, there is a reason they are given the authority they have, and -usually- it is not abused, but ya always have the bad apples and those are the ones you hear about. :)
Like most, I've had a couple of run ins with cops while biking, and knock on wood, they were always very polite and friendly, basically asked us not to ride two up, for our own safety, etc., and another time asked us to not ride on a particular highway that bikes were not allowed on - and she (gorgeous female officer!) was actually apologetic about it, saying how much she liked cycling as well, and told us to continue to the exit we were planning to go to, but not do it in the future.

[nahtnoj]

Can't say I would react differently with respect to not stopping. Once you stop you are a sitting duck. Escalating the situation by yelling at him is a different story.

If a screaming redneck asshole comes after me when I'm out on a ride, I do everything I can to stand my ground, maintain my personal space, and safely extract myself from the situation.

If said screaming redneck asshole happened to be driving a police car, would that change my mental calculus regarding the threat posed? Not sure, but probably not. Same instinctive defense mechanisms would kick in.

[goonster]

do you know what country they were in?
I believe that is Denmark.

(Where the Queen sometimes rides her bike on public roads.)

[dvs cycles]

If you refuse a repeated order by a cop when doing as he says will not cause you direct bodily harm, than you deserve whatever beat down he feels is appropriate. ATMO! Like it or not, that is the standing rule.Absolutely. Always respect the badge and comply and no harm will come to you. Resistance is futile. :beer:

[zap]

If an officer acts like an idiot, take the high road and do the best you can to diffuse the situation quickly and call the chief when you get home. You will have more credability later.

We had a problem, nothing like the op story, with a young officer several years ago and called the boss when we got home. The offending officer came to our house to apologies and I know we made one more officer think differently about cyclists riding on public roads.

[toaster]

Bad cop, no donut for you!


The first thing that strikes me is the cop's statement that they were two abreast traveling 5-10 mph and these guys are on a fast Tuesday night ride and are very competitive cyclists.

After that I don't believe a word in his police statements.

The claim by the cyclist's that they were riding 18-20 mph makes complete sense. Most of what they say seems likely, although the parts where actual confrontation takes place I would not tend to take their statements to be entirely true.

The cop has some serious issues.

[jsfoster]

Deserve? Dude, you are creepy.

I believe the 'deserve' was meant to be in the mind of the officer in question.

[BumbleBeeDave]

To be honest, I would have pulled over. If the cop then continued to drive away, I'd start riding again. If I encountered him again and he then decided to pull me over, again, I would have stopped.

If he yelled at me I'd pull over, no matter what he yelled at me. If he stops I can make nice. If he doesn't, then wait till he's gone, try to figure out what he really meant, then go on my way. If he comes along again I'll pull over and stop again. Sooner or later I'm either going to be outside city limits or he's going to stop and I can politely ask how I'm supposed to "get off the F***ing road."

But I'm not going to yell anything at him. Baaaaad idea. I always told my photo staff to be nice to cops. Bottom line is they have a badge and gun and can do pretty much anything they want--up to and including beating the sh*t out of you or even shooting you--and they will most likely get away with it. Of course, only one in a million of them is every going to do that, but better to play it safe.

BBD

[mpetry]

Agree, city cops are on such a hair trigger now If they tell you to stop, you'd better, because if you don't, they'll beat / taser / shoot you given the slightest excuse.

After several savage and unprovoke beatings / shootings, the Seattle city council required all police cars to be video equipped. Make sure you are in front of the car.

Just to be fair, I think police have a horrible job, I cannot imagine a worse one. But nobody forced them to take it.

Your best strategy is to be respectful, say yes sir, make no sudden moves, but get the badge number and hire a lawyer, if only to write a letter of complaint to the chief, cc'ed to the mayor, members of the city council, and newspaper. There are few things in life more satisfying than getting an apology from an arrogant cop in front of the one authority they have to respect.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA

[paczki]

If you refuse a repeated order by a cop when doing as he says will not cause you direct bodily harm, than you deserve whatever beat down he feels is appropriate. ATMO! Like it or not, that is the standing rule.

Really, I don't see it. Lifelover can shed light on this but it seems to me he's saying that if you are dumb enough to disobey an officer's commands you deserve the punishment. You will get the punishment but given that it's unjust and arbitrary, I don't see how you deserve it.

[dsteady]

If you refuse a repeated order by a cop when doing as he says will not cause you direct bodily harm, than you deserve whatever beat down he feels is appropriate. ATMO! Like it or not, that is the standing rule.

From page 10 of the article:

"As the Court held, if the cyclist hasn't broken a traffic law, then the cyclist can't be lawfully arrested, and the order to pull over is itself unlawful. Therefore, if the order is unlawful (italics mine), the cyclist is not required to obey the order, and can't be arrested for failure to comply. Now, this is the law in Ohio, but it is based on 4th Amendment jurisprudence, so the jurisprudence in other states should be similar. If somebody knows of contradictory 4th Amendment jurisprudence in another state, please let me know."

I find it inexplicable, even without citing the law above, that you could condone a physcal beating in this situation. ***?

[dsteady]

Absolutely. Always respect the badge and comply and no harm will come to you. Resistance is futile. :beer:

If you aspire to be a sheep. We have rights and and mindlessly acquiescing to cops simply because they have a gun and we don't does nothing to protect those rights.

[mpetry]

yes, that's right. Also remember that only the court (not the officer) can decide what punishment is deserved, if any.

It used to be that cops could only get away with using force if it was "justified" but that threshold has been lowered considerably in the last few years.

However, it's hard to argue with a bullet in the back of the head (as we saw in the Oakland police BART shooting).

Do what the cop says, in a polite and non threatening manner, get on video, get the badge number, and get a lawyer. After the charges are dropped, sue for wrongful arrest and damages.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA

[goonster]

I find it inexplicable, even without citing the law above, that you could condone a physcal beating in this situation.

Nobody is condoning it. They are suggesting that the cop represents a force which should not be provoked. To most cops, failure to submit completely constitutes provocation. That's how it is. :bike:

Most of us are not keen to argue 4th amendment jurisprudence with a cop when his baton is up your ***.

[goonster]

The most interesting aspect of the entire fracas is when the cop, subsequently, attempts to explain some of his actions by his perception that the cyclists were taunting him by "wiggling their butts in the air" (the cyclists were accelerating out of the saddle).

It is painfully obvious that this cake-eater is too dumb to wear a badge.

[toaster]

The most interesting aspect of the entire fracas is when the cop, subsequently, attempts to explain some of his actions by his perception that the cyclists were taunting him by "wiggling their butts in the air" (the cyclists were accelerating out of the saddle).

It is painfully obvious that this cake-eater is too dumb to wear a badge.

This looks like a case of a homophobic cop with a lot of anger pent up inside.

[vqdriver]

man, that sucks on so many levels

[Climb01742]

one more reason to always ride with your cellphone. cops like this were made to star on a cellphone video.

[RPS]

one more reason to always ride with your cellphone. cops like this were made to star on a cellphone video.This particular cop may very well be a loose cannon, but the outcome (once the incident started) would be similar with just about any law enforcement officer in the US or other country -- probably much worse in other countries. Cops can't allow people in general to question their authority at all, or have them decide when they will abide by the cop's instructions (whether right or wrong).

I'm not defending his actions, just saying it's quite predictable IMO.

[dvs cycles]

If you aspire to be a sheep. We have rights and and mindlessly acquiescing to cops simply because they have a gun and we don't does nothing to protect those rights.If showing respect for authority is being sheep like to you good luck with your next confrontation with law enforcement.
Even if you are right or feel you are right you will lose.
That is not the time to resist or rebel unless you have your lawyer WITH you.
I have been treated very well by every LEO I've ever met because I respect the badge. I may not like them at that moment or agree with them but getting in their face is not a smart thing to do.
By the way I have never been pulled over or gotten a ticket that I didn't deserve but have received more than my fair share of polite warnings.

[toaster]

Number one (arguably) rule in life:

Don't be an a**hole!

It works both ways.

:no:

[Lifelover]

Really, I don't see it. Lifelover can shed light on this but it seems to me he's saying that if you are dumb enough to disobey an officer's commands you deserve the punishment. You will get the punishment but given that it's unjust and arbitrary, I don't see how you deserve it.


We could certainly debate the use of the word "deserve", but it's close enough.

It is not even that I "side" with the cop in this case, I just don't side with the A$$ on the bike. If I had been the parent of the 16 y/o that was with him, I might consider tassering the guy myself.

[Dekonick]

The actions of the officer are out of line - but the same goes for the cyclists. This is a case of whose is bigger... and the LEO will ALWAYS have a bigger stick - at least until the investigation.

Best to comply, and complain later.

:crap:

[toaster]

Cops.

Biggest offenders of hands-free cell phone laws.