How much extra $ for "respect" ?

[Bob Ross]

http://www.evertibikes.com/eagle.htm

My wife sent me the above link, proudly pointing out that "you're so skinny you could ride this bike!" (It has a 180lb rider weight limit)

I've never heard of Everti, though a quick search here suggests that they're a not-very-well-respected company sourcing their Ti frames from Taiwan. But I'm looking at the component list, and looking at that $10k price, and I couldn't help wondering:

Wouldn't it be fairly easy to build an 11.4lb Titanium bike using all those same components but a frame from a more respected framebuilder, and still meet that $10k pricepoint?

I.e., does this Everti frame weigh that much less -- or cost that much less -- than a Serotta, Moots, Erickson, Spectrum, etc?

And if so, what would it cost -- or what would the equivalent build weigh -- to go the extra mile and get some of that "respect"?

[Ti Designs]

The Ferarri Dino never got much respect 'cause it used a Fiat motor. Same thing goes for bikes...

[paczki]

The Ferarri Dino never got much respect 'cause it used a Fiat motor. Same thing goes for bikes...

I think you have to view these projects as expensive versions of the Pinewood Derby, not as mainly concerned with cycling. :banana:

[gemship]

http://www.evertibikes.com/eagle.htm

My wife sent me the above link, proudly pointing out that "you're so skinny you could ride this bike!" (It has a 180lb rider weight limit)

I've never heard of Everti, though a quick search here suggests that they're a not-very-well-respected company sourcing their Ti frames from Taiwan. But I'm looking at the component list, and looking at that $10k price, and I couldn't help wondering:

Wouldn't it be fairly easy to build an 11.4lb Titanium bike using all those same components but a frame from a more respected framebuilder, and still meet that $10k pricepoint?

I.e., does this Everti frame weigh that much less -- or cost that much less -- than a Serotta, Moots, Erickson, Spectrum, etc?

And if so, would would it cost -- or what would the equivalent build weigh -- to go the extra mile and get some of that "respect"?


Probably not. Upon first looking at the claimed weight and then the bike I thought Litespeed Ghisallo. Now that bike frame is made to fly up hills with a claimed weight under 2 pounds. I could be wrong but to get that light which really is silly light one definitely needs a sub 2 pound frame. In building a durable frame I believe the framebuilders you mentioned can do it but it would certainly cost a bit more as it would probably be a custom build.

I'm no Serotta,Spectrum,whatever expert but I get the sense that yes these folks can build silly light but they all seem to prefer building for the long haul which makes sense.

[Ti Designs]

I think you have to view these projects as expensive versions of the Pinewood Derby, not as mainly concerned with cycling. :banana:


So your saying I can get some respect by showing up to the pinewood derby with a cart made out of tiger maple with a wenge hood and teak running boards?

[djg]

So your saying I can get some respect by showing up to the pinewood derby with a cart made out of tiger maple with a wenge hood and teak running boards?

From somebody, sure, but not from the other scouts.

I went this year -- my 7 year-old son hit the podium (erasing decades of family shame) -- and, according to my informal observations, the children actually seemed interested in winning.

[csm]

The Ferarri Dino never got much respect 'cause it used a Fiat motor. Same thing goes for bikes...

the dino motor got plenty of respect though in the various Lancia rally cars it found it's way into.

[Ti Designs]

the dino motor got plenty of respect though in the various Lancia rally cars it found it's way into.


Yeh, but not from the Serotta - er, I mean Ferarri owners.

[flickwet]

The Ferarri Dino never got much respect 'cause it used a Fiat motor. Same thing goes for bikes...
Neither the 2.4 nor the 2.6 V6 "dino" motors were "Fiats" they were Dino's made by Ferrari named for his only "legitimate" son Alfredo, who died prematurely from muscular dystrophy. real Ferrari owners fully respect the engines which were jointly designed by Dino himself a talented engineer and Mr. Jano the mind behind the brilliant Alfa Romeo engines of the post WWII era. Real cogniscetti of the Cavalino Rampant treat and appreciate the Dinos for the automotive jewels they are. It is true that Dino engines found there way into a couple of fiat sports cars but this does not denigrate the marque. Many owners, well even Ferrari America, placed Ferrari badging on the Dinos esp the later cars, this really is a misnomer because the cars were constructed as Dinos, Sorry for the long post but I like Dinos there is absolutly nothing finer to drive than a Dino 260 GTS, maybe a new Lotus comes closest.

[flickwet]

the fundamental V8 3 litre was used in the Lancia Stratus Ralleye Car and the Lancia Thema luxury car, The last Dino, was actually constructed as a Ferrari, the Dino 308GT4, a 2+2 designed by Bertone not the preferred coach builder, Pininafarina. yeah that ones kind of a Fiat. but NOT the 240 and 260 sixes

[csm]

the fundamental V8 3 litre was used in the Lancia Stratus Ralleye Car and the Lancia Thema luxury car, The last Dino, was actually constructed as a Ferrari, the Dino 308GT4, a 2+2 designed by Bertone not the preferred coach builder, Pininafarina. yeah that ones kind of a Fiat. but NOT the 240 and 260 sixes

the 50 or so Lancia Stratos built for rallying out of the 400 or homolgated under the rules between 1974 and 1978 were in fact Ferrari V6 engines and the body was also by Bertone.

[znfdl]

My compact double butted Spectrum Ti frame, fork and headset weights 2 pounds and 8 ounces. Not sure how much the Everti frame, fork and headset weighs.

My frame has a virtual 53 TT and 54 ST. Angles are much nicer at parallel 73 degrees.

[zap]

My compact double butted Spectrum Ti frame, fork and headset weights 2 pounds and 8 ounces. Not sure how much the Everti frame, fork and headset weighs.

My frame has a virtual 53 TT and 54 ST. Angles are much nicer at parallel 73 degrees.

Zin, you sure about that. I can see the frame alone weighing 2.5 lbs which is quite impressive.

If the whole kit does in fact weigh 2.5lbs, then the litespeed crew built something really special for Tom.

[johnnymossville]

I'm not a fan of that much slope on a bike personally.

I like the color scheme though. It shows just the proper level of restraint in graphics and color to make it a very successful design to me.

[caleb]

Wouldn't it be fairly easy to build an 11.4lb Titanium bike using all those same components but a frame from a more respected framebuilder, and still meet that $10k pricepoint?


Three things I think are dumb:

1) Paying 10k for a bicycle.

2) Building an 11.4 pound bike using components whose life expectancy is less than 3000 miles.

3) Buying "respect".

[johnnymossville]

...

3) Buying "respect".


I was gonna say something about the "respect" thing but you summed it up really well. LOL I don't think he meant buying respect in that way though. I think he meant more like.... "Pinarello Prince runs into a Vanilla in a dark alley and,...." frame vs frame respect.


respect the rider.

[znfdl]

Zin, you sure about that. I can see the frame alone weighing 2.5 lbs which is quite impressive.

If the whole kit does in fact weigh 2.5lbs, then the litespeed crew built something really special for Tom.

Yes, a small compact frame, double butted oversized Ti tubes, with a new reynolds UL fork. With 2005 record, FSA SRM crank, heavy saddle, aerobars, 32 spoke wheels dura ace pedals, salsa poco bars and a ricthey stem, centaur cassette, and a zefal full frame pump, it comes in at just under 17lbs. Nothing on the bike is stupid light

The wheels alone on the Exerti accounts for 1.5 pound difference.

[djg]

My compact double butted Spectrum Ti frame, fork and headset weights 2 pounds and 8 ounces. Not sure how much the Everti frame, fork and headset weighs.

My frame has a virtual 53 TT and 54 ST. Angles are much nicer at parallel 73 degrees.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this means that there isn't a darn thing Everti or anybody else can do to shave 2.5 pounds from your bike by replacing the frame itself, unless they replace it with empty space. Shaving 1.5 pounds from your frame, in Ti, may present serious fabrication issues, supposing it's feasible, even if we're not worried how the thing might ride or whether it might fall apart in actual use. So you could give up everything Tom has to offer and maybe gain a few ounces at best. The rest is parts -- and you are free to chase the weight weenie grail in whatever ways you actually appreciate it and want to pay the freight . . . or not.

People want what they want, but if I were choosing between these two Ti options, I'd go to the same barn you did.

[Everti]

http://www.evertibikes.com/eagle.htm

My wife sent me the above link, proudly pointing out that "you're so skinny you could ride this bike!" (It has a 180lb rider weight limit)

I've never heard of Everti, though a quick search here suggests that they're a not-very-well-respected company sourcing their Ti frames from Taiwan. But I'm looking at the component list, and looking at that $10k price, and I couldn't help wondering:

Wouldn't it be fairly easy to build an 11.4lb Titanium bike using all those same components but a frame from a more respected framebuilder, and still meet that $10k pricepoint?

I.e., does this Everti frame weigh that much less -- or cost that much less -- than a Serotta, Moots, Erickson, Spectrum, etc?

And if so, what would it cost -- or what would the equivalent build weigh -- to go the extra mile and get some of that "respect"?

It should not come as a surprise that Everti bikes get little respect here - this is a Serotta forum!
I only ask that you consider this - what brand of car do you drive? Is it an import. I drive an impost because I appreciate the level of quality offered for the dollar compared to domestic cars. For this same reason I have chosen to have my frames built in Taiwan.
My bikes are in a different price range than Serotta as I want to get real cyclists out there on my bikes. I don't care if elitists can't bring themselves to ride something that doesn't command respect. I think respect must be earned. And in cycling that is what races and group rides are for.
Do you respect someone who drives a Porsche just because it is a nice car? I should hope not!
Just be fair. If you haven't seen one of my bikes then please don't judge them based on the fact they aren't made in the USA.

Sincerely,

Kurt Knock
owner
Everti Bicycles

[sirroada]

Three things I think are dumb:

1) Paying 10k for a bicycle.

2) Building an 11.4 pound bike using components whose life expectancy is less than 3000 miles.

3) Buying "respect".

I am right here with you on this one. Yeah, I paid a lot for my Serotta BUT it is the nicest thing I have ever ridden and if I so chose, I could ride it for another 30 years. EVERY day I get on my serotta, I feel the same sense of awe for the design and feel of my bike. I love it.
Some suits were probable sitting around the table at Everti and said, lets build it as cheap as we can, sell it for as much as we can and someone will buy it! Guaranteed, someone will pull the trigger.

[don compton]

the fundamental V8 3 litre was used in the Lancia Stratus Ralleye Car and the Lancia Thema luxury car, The last Dino, was actually constructed as a Ferrari, the Dino 308GT4, a 2+2 designed by Bertone not the preferred coach builder, Pininafarina. yeah that ones kind of a Fiat. but NOT the 240 and 260 sixes
i have owned a 308gt4 and a 308 gtb. in addition, i owned a 250 gt berlinetta lusso. the 308 engines were destroyed by smog reg's. the cars were wonderful to drive. on the 308gt4, i would open a window on the right side so i could listen to the "webers".
my berlinetta lusso was just an incredible car. there was absolutely nothing perfect about the car. but, the sound from a 12 cyl. ohc, with webers and headers was just to die for. it had a 4sp. with a high first gear. the spacing was perfect. another thing, fuel economy was not up to todays standards. no problem, the lusso had a 36 gal. tank.
the crazy thing is that an '08 mcs with lsd is much more exciting to drive.
dpcompt

[rounder]

i have owned a 308gt4 and a 308 gtb. in addition, i owned a 250 gt berlinetta lusso. the 308 engines were destroyed by smog reg's. the cars were wonderful to drive. on the 308gt4, i would open a window on the right side so i could listen to the "webers".
my berlinetta lusso was just an incredible car. there was absolutely nothing perfect about the car. but, the sound from a 12 cyl. ohc, with webers and headers was just to die for. it had a 4sp. with a high first gear. the spacing was perfect. another thing, fuel economy was not up to todays standards. no problem, the lusso had a 36 gal. tank.
the crazy thing is that an '08 mcs with lsd is much more exciting to drive.
dpcompt

While growing up in the 60s, i liked sports cars but didn't have much money to spend. All my friends knew what ferarris and webers were. When the dinos came out, we all thought they were beautiful but were "lesser" ferarris because they were not 12 cyl (me and my friends would have drooled over the thought of acutually owning any ferarri, including the dinos. What did we know.) Still, whenever any car with webers pulled up close ( 911s etc.), i would always turn down the sound and roll down the windows. Today, thinking back, every car i ever owned has been 4 cyl. Still, i have huge respect for what enzo set out to do and what he accomplished.

[csm]

i have owned a 308gt4 and a 308 gtb. in addition, i owned a 250 gt berlinetta lusso. the 308 engines were destroyed by smog reg's. the cars were wonderful to drive. on the 308gt4, i would open a window on the right side so i could listen to the "webers".
my berlinetta lusso was just an incredible car. there was absolutely nothing perfect about the car. but, the sound from a 12 cyl. ohc, with webers and headers was just to die for. it had a 4sp. with a high first gear. the spacing was perfect. another thing, fuel economy was not up to todays standards. no problem, the lusso had a 36 gal. tank.
the crazy thing is that an '08 mcs with lsd is much more exciting to drive.
dpcompt

I still think the 308 and the evolution into the 288GTO was one of the most beautiful Ferraris of all time. there was to be a Group S rally car class that the 288GTO derivative was gonna compete in but due to the Group B cars killing people it was cancelled. supposedly we'd have seen the equivalent of F1 engines in some of the cars.
the 308 still shows up in vintage rallies.

[paczki]

It should not come as a surprise that Everti bikes get little respect here - this is a Serotta forum!
I only ask that you consider this - what brand of car do you drive? Is it an import. I drive an impost because I appreciate the level of quality offered for the dollar compared to domestic cars. For this same reason I have chosen to have my frames built in Taiwan.
My bikes are in a different price range than Serotta as I want to get real cyclists out there on my bikes. I don't care if elitists can't bring themselves to ride something that doesn't command respect. I think respect must be earned. And in cycling that is what races and group rides are for.
Do you respect someone who drives a Porsche just because it is a nice car? I should hope not!
Just be fair. If you haven't seen one of my bikes then please don't judge them based on the fact they aren't made in the USA.

Sincerely,

Kurt Knock
owner
Everti Bicycles


I think the elitism about bikes made in Taiwan is ridiculous. Why do we think that parts (and frames) made in Japan are elegant and precise, and not Taiwan? There's nothing rational about it. I also agree that respect is something earned. Like Serotta, for example -- we needn't go into how many races won, how many legendary riders have ridden them, etc. They make an extraordinary product, in-house, in the USA.

But I do take issue with your "real riders" comment. It takes a lot of gall to say that when you are selling a 10K super light bike. I could build up a nice CdA for a third of the price. Nothing against you or your bikes, they may be great. But the jab at Serotta is unwarranted and unfair.

[CNY rider]

I think the elitism about bikes made in Taiwan is ridiculous. Why do we think that parts (and frames) made in Japan are elegant and precise, and not Taiwan? There's nothing rational about it. I also agree that respect is something earned. Like Serotta, for example -- we needn't go into how many races won, how many legendary riders have ridden them, etc. They make an extraordinary product, in-house, in the USA.

But I do take issue with your "real riders" comment. It takes a lot of gall to say that when you are selling a 10K super light bike. I could build up a nice CdA for a third of the price. Nothing against you or your bikes, they may be great. But the jab at Serotta is unwarranted and unfair.


I'll second that sentiment.
A lot of great folks, building all kind of different bikes, hang around and post here. Their opinions garner all kinds of respect when they talk sensibly and enthusiastically about bicycles, without insulting Serotta who just happen to make outstanding bicycles and also host this forum.
Welcome Everti. :beer:

[duke]

"My bikes are in a different price range than Serotta as I want to get real cyclists out there on my bikes."

You are sh&^%%$# me, right?
I guess I am only a "real cyclist" when I ride my Calfee. Riding one of my Serottas makes me an "unreal cyclist".
Oh well, I've been called worse things by lesser persons.
Welcome to the forum Everti.
duke

[William]

My bike here was well under 11 pounds, and way below $10,000.

http://www.lilfishes.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/minibikerd.jpg

Every bit worth the $12.50 price tag!!


William :)

[maddog17]

It should not come as a surprise that Everti bikes get little respect here - this is a Serotta forum!
I only ask that you consider this - what brand of car do you drive? Is it an import. I drive an impost because I appreciate the level of quality offered for the dollar compared to domestic cars. For this same reason I have chosen to have my frames built in Taiwan.
My bikes are in a different price range than Serotta as I want to get real cyclists out there on my bikes. I don't care if elitists can't bring themselves to ride something that doesn't command respect. I think respect must be earned. And in cycling that is what races and group rides are for.
Do you respect someone who drives a Porsche just because it is a nice car? I should hope not!
Just be fair. If you haven't seen one of my bikes then please don't judge them based on the fact they aren't made in the USA.

Sincerely,

Kurt Knock
owner
Everti Bicycles


good point. considering where most carbon frames are being built, why pass any type of judgement on Everti frames. if people are happy with their Taiwan built carbon frames, then i don't see why they wouldn't be happy with an Everti. i don't know anyone who rides one, so i'll have to give him the benefit of the doubt that his frames are built well. considering they are built overseas, i can understand his point on lower price to get the brand under some of us. but i don't agree with the Serotta comment. what is a "real cyclist"? it's been said plenty of times that it's about the rider not really the bike. if you suck on a Trek, you'll suck on a Parlee. if the engine don't work well it doesnt matter what car you drop it in. now, if someone had the choice between a Serotta or Everti, yes most would pick the Serotta because of it being more well known among the masses. plenty of small builders out here have carved a niche for themselves with the NAHBS shows. building show bikes and getting their name out there. if someone doesn't care about the name on the frame because their on a budget (like me) that's where a company like Everti fills the void. this is only about the 2nd or 3rd time i've heard about Everti partly because i'm not currently in the market for a new ride. the frames are priced nicely, but until i've read some reviews on them i wouldn't consider them or see one in person.

[Everti]

My comment of "real cyclist" has unfortunately been misinterpreted. I know there are real cyclists out there on every brand of bike. What I meant by saying "real cyclist" is someone who rides rather than buys a bike for the "respect" it will bring him/her.
Sorry for any hard feelings!

Kurt

[Pete Serotta]

It should not come as a surprise that Everti bikes get little respect here - this is a Serotta forum!
I only ask that you consider this - what brand of car do you drive? Is it an import. I drive an impost because I appreciate the level of quality offered for the dollar compared to domestic cars. For this same reason I have chosen to have my frames built in Taiwan.
My bikes are in a different price range than Serotta as I want to get real cyclists out there on my bikes. I don't care if elitists can't bring themselves to ride something that doesn't command respect. I think respect must be earned. And in cycling that is what races and group rides are for.
Do you respect someone who drives a Porsche just because it is a nice car? I should hope not!
Just be fair. If you haven't seen one of my bikes then please don't judge them based on the fact they aren't made in the USA.

Sincerely,

Kurt Knock
owner
Everti Bicycles
Please chill.....this is not the place to "bash" all Serottas and all that ride them.... Lots of things are made good and not good overseas. You mention respect is earned,,,, this is not the way to do it for your brand.

Thanks/... and please do not use the forum as the advertisement board for your product. PETE