Fitting Results...

[MattTuck]

So, I had a fitting on Saturday.

Found out that my bike (a lemond zurich) really isn't that ideal. The top tube is too long, or I should say the seat is set too far back relative to the bottom bracket and even with a new seat post, I am not quite there yet.

The fitter said that I could probably get away with a stock frame, but would have to move the seat as far forward as possible, and that may not even be ideal.


This is all fine, and I will ride the new set up (also got new shoes and switching to speed play pedals)... but there's a lot of variables in flux now.

I am considering a custom frame (as that would help out re: getting the seat properly positioned) but I wonder if I should do another fitting?


Any statisticians in the room? Usually the mean of a sample is better than a single point estimate. If I'm going to drop a ton of money on a frame, I wouldn't mind paying the extra money for the peace of mind that I'm getting the geometry right.

[Steve in SLO]

Why not ask the fitter for a 'tune up' fit or something similar after riding the new setup for a while? Seems to me that since he's recently seen you, suggested changes, that he could tweak his fit to perfection in relatively short order and at a lower price than a full fit.

[Ti Designs]

Hey, isn't there a bike fit part of this forum???

OK, thread placement aside, I have a question or two (more like 20, but I'll make this as short as I can)

The problem you're talking about is a fore/aft adjustment, so how did the fitter come to their conclusion on where the saddle needs to be? I'm a bit worried in that the first thing you said was the top tube is too long, which has me thinking that saddle position was set based on saddle to bar distance. If that is the case, how much did you pay for this fitting?

[Pete Serotta]

Unless you do not have trust in the fitter and have seen some of his work - what would be a reason for another fit by another fitter. If they do not agree, than what do you do.

Would love to see you on a custom SEROTTA but you might want to try a Zero setback seat post and push the seat forward to see how you feel first.

Secondly, I do not understand why going to SPEED PLAY would affect your position. Yes I use speedplay because of the rotation they give BUT LOOK are also good pedals that fit folks well. (this to my way of thinking is a preference item and a possible "knee" consideration,)

Pedals are not the items you mentioned with seat setback, top tube length, stem length etc...

Others have far more knowledge here BUT this is my 2 cents. PETE

[palincss]

I wouldn't be all that surprised to hear that a LeMond top tube is on the long side -- they are, after all, known for being on the long side! But that wouldn't affect the saddle placement (moving saddles is no way to correct for too much top tube length); and I've never heard that LeMond frames have especially slack seat angles. Do you have exceptionally short legs?

[MattTuck]

One issue was totally unrelated to top tube length, just a matter of moving the seat forward relative to the BB.

Another issue was that the reach to the hoods needs to be shortened (but I didn't want to spend additional cash at this point for a shorter stem/narrower handle bar.

The new seat post is a zero setback, but even with that, I could stand to move the saddle forward another .5-1 cm.

Actual fitting aside, the question is more about whether additional fitting is warranted before paying $8K for a custom frame. The relative cost is pretty low. the potential benefit (making sure the frame fits) is another issue.

Feel free to move this thread to the appropriate area.

[Ray]

Actual fitting aside, the question is more about whether additional fitting is warranted before paying $8K for a custom frame. The relative cost is pretty low. the potential benefit (making sure the frame fits) is another issue.
If I was thinking about an $8,000 custom frame, here's what I'd do. I'd get another fit or two and see if there is consensus amongst 'em. If not, then you need to really do some research into which fitters/designers people have had consistently good experiences with and go to one (or two) of them. After all of that and I was pretty comfortable that I had a good recommendation for frame geometry, I'd get a $1,000 custom frame out of steel or alu, build it up and see if you love it more than life itsownself. If you don't, DO NOT spend another $8000 to repeat the mistake. If the fit is right and you do love it, you might just be happy enough with it not to want to spend another $8000, but if you DO want to spend the money, at least you know you're starting with a geometry/fit that works for you.

What I would NOT do if I was thinking about an $8000 custom frame would be to get one fitting, question the results, get 70 more opinions from the likes of us, and then go into more confused than ever.

But that's just me.

-Ray

[palincss]

Another issue was that the reach to the hoods needs to be shortened (but I didn't want to spend additional cash at this point for a shorter stem/narrower handle bar.

[snip]

Actual fitting aside, the question is more about whether additional fitting is warranted before paying $8K for a custom frame. The relative cost is pretty low. the potential benefit (making sure the frame fits) is another issue.


Let me be sure I understand. You are balking at the cost of a shorter stem but have no trouble with the idea of paying 8 thousand dollars for a custom frame?

:confused:

[scottcw2]

The new seat post is a zero setback, but even with that, I could stand to move the saddle forward another .5-1 cm.

What is your position in relation to KOPS? Personally, I wouldn't get hung up on 1cm.

[MattTuck]

Let me be sure I understand. You are balking at the cost of a shorter stem but have no trouble with the idea of paying 8 thousand dollars for a custom frame?

:confused:


Not balking at modifying my existing bike, I intend to get the fit as dialed in as possible before ordering ANYTHING custom.

Bigger issue, and reason for the post, is whether the day to day variations in flexibility, feeling and even early season vs. later season flexibility and strength would give you a reason to be atleast suspicious of a single point estimate of the fit.

I think Ray answered it best.

[Pete Serotta]

Please lets chill. He asked some good questions. If it was my bike this is the order I would take:

- Make the modifications to the existing bike and see how you feel and ride with the new position. Give in a few rides and do a self evaluation

- If you want a new bike (or just frame) - go to a fitter that you have confidence in (not saying you do not have confidence with the current fitter)

- Take your experience with the modified existing bike and understand what the new design/build would encompass.

_ I do not know where you are located BUT I would recommend a SEROTTA size cycle and certified fitter as the basic foundation to move from. (bet that comes as a shock :D )

Look at how folks who have been fitted by him/her sit on their bike and whether they are happy with the fit and ride. Some fitters like lots of seat post showing and this quite often results in the Stem being pointed quite a bit upward - if you want the seat and bars soughta level on the same plane this pushes you toward a larger size frame with an even shorter top tube or toward a sloping top tube. There are aesthetic considerations here also (what you want your frame to look like), This is where a custom build and a experienced fitter come in.

Talk about all these aspects with your fitter.


Feel free to send me a note at pete@serotta.com if you have questions.


There are no wrong answers in this thread - just different for a given situation. I am not a proponent of getting numerous fits from different fitters. It cost $$S and adds to confusion for "WHich one is correct or more correct" ie, what is your validation criteria.


ps - from an email, I found out who the fitter is....Matt can not do any better than the fellow he is with. (the person is one of the best out there)

PETE

[Ti Designs]

Bigger issue, and reason for the post, is whether the day to day variations in flexibility, feeling and even early season vs. later season flexibility and strength would give you a reason to be atleast suspicious of a single point estimate of the fit.


I have this theory about riding fixed gear - you're in the wrong gear most of the time. Same thing goes for all these single position fittings. I own a custom frame, I have a different position now than I'll have two months from now. I also happen to own two stems and a set of allen wrenches...

As much as it pisses off the fit studios when I say this, if anyone spends an hour or two and puts you in the "perfect position", they're wrong. A fitter can do one of two things. 1) They can get you into the ballpark and explain the process of tuning the fit. This means explaining the concepts of range of motion and use of different muscle groups. If the client gets that, they can make small changes over time and come to a good working position. or 2) The fitter can ride with the client for months, making small changes once in a while based on what they see. That service from any fit studio would cost about $20,000...


Matt, in your case I'm gonna suggest option #2, just without the huge price tag. You seem to know my area, Park ave is three blocks from where I live. If you can find your way down this way, I would love to work with you on fit as well as going for a few rides to see what's really going on (watching someone ride a trainer doesn't tell me that much). I could also see my way to visiting your area, one of my past racers is now in school there and sometimes the coach has to make house calls...

[jlwdm]

Pete:

Lots of threads get crazy (and drive me crazy) on this forum, but I don't understand the "please lets chill on this one." Your post acts like your post is the definitive answer or different from what has been already said - and it is not.

Jeff

[Ti Designs]

Pete:

Lots of threads get crazy (and drive me crazy) on this forum, but I don't understand the "please lets chill on this one." Your post acts like your post is the definitive answer or different from what has been already said - and it is not.

Jeff


"let's chill" just means that Pete was in one of his rare white wine moods...

[Pete Serotta]

(Deleted for it was not meant to single out a any specific user)

if I came across as the definitive source, I apologize.


Pete:

Lots of threads get crazy (and drive me crazy) on this forum, but I don't understand the "please lets chill on this one." Your post acts like your post is the definitive answer or different from what has been already said - and it is not.

Jeff

[John H.]

From what I recall about the Lemond Zurich- It was a slack seat angle/long toptube bike. I had one- a 55 had a 73 degree seat angle and 56.5 toptube.
I would suggest getting or borrowing a shorter/steeper frame.
See how that rides and fits before you spend any big money.
As other have posted KOPS for setback is not always the end all.

[SoCalSteve]

Please lets chill. He asked some good questions. If it was my bike this is the order I would take:

- Make the modifications to the existing bike and see how you feel and ride with the new position. Give in a few rides and do a self evaluation

- If you want a new bike (or just frame) - go to a fitter that you have confidence in (not saying you do not have confidence with the current fitter)

- Take your experience with the modified existing bike and understand what the new design/build would encompass.

_ I do not know where you are located BUT I would recommend a SEROTTA size cycle and certified fitter as the basic foundation to move from. (bet that comes as a shock :D )

Look at how folks who have been fitted by him/her sit on their bike and whether they are happy with the fit and ride. Some fitters like lots of seat post showing and this quite often results in the Stem being pointed quite a bit upward - if you want the seat and bars soughta level on the same plane this pushes you toward a larger size frame with an even shorter top tube or toward a sloping top tube. There are aesthetic considerations here also (what you want your frame to look like), This is where a custom build and a experienced fitter come in.

Talk about all these aspects with your fitter.


Feel free to send me a note at pete@serotta.com if you have questions.


There are no wrong answers in this thread - just different for a given situation. I am not a proponent of getting numerous fits from different fitters. It cost $$S and adds to confusion for "WHich one is correct or more correct" ie, what is your validation criteria.


ps - from an email, I found out who the fitter is....Matt can not do any better than the fellow he is with. (the person is one of the best out there)

PETE

This is absolutely the best advice ANYONE could give you. Only you know what will feel best and only after you spend time riding your bike with different stem lengths, seatpost setbacks, etc, etc, etc...

Spend some time riding your bike with all the variables (just do small adjustments at a time as not to hurt yourself) and in the end, you will be the best bike fitter FOR YOU.

You have a good starting point, go from there.

Good luck,

Steve

[Lifelover]

I have this theory about riding fixed gear - you're in the wrong gear most of the time. Same thing goes for all these single position fittings....

I love this quote enough to make it my signature for a while.

To the OP:

What was the purpose of having the fitting done? Were you having a specific problem that you wanted addressed.

As a absolute Noob I had a fitting done and I'm thankful for it. I still use those dimensions as a basis. However, there can be no single "best fit". ATMO
I don't think I would spend the money on another one unless I was having a very specific problem that I could not otherwise resolve.

Your post reminds me of one of the reasons I have never got a custom frame. I'm afraid I will screw up the fit!

From all I have read over the years, if you are interested in a custom frame call a good builder, discuss you body dimensions, discuss your current bike's dimensions and tell him how you plan to use the bike.

[vqdriver]

I have this theory about riding fixed gear - you're in the wrong gear most of the time...

+1
lol

[Ti Designs]

I love this quote enough to make it my signature for a while.



That'll be $800.

[Ti Designs]

That'll be $800.


Per day.

[Pete Serotta]

Per day.



Check is in the mail for three days.... :)

[caleb]

The internet is not generally the best forum for fitting discussions. We're strangers full of opinions typing them into plastic boxes.

My $.02: What you've described doesn't sound crazy, and you may be working with a competent fitter. I don't see any reason for immediate skepticism.

[djg]

As for sampling fitters . . . this seems to me one of those areas where you're liable to be cursed with "small n" problems if you're not willing to do quite a bit of traveling and spend quite a bit of time and money having many, many fittings. Supposing that you're not going to hire a coach, or make repeated visits to an experienced fitter who will watch you on the road as well as the trainer . . . gee, I'd guess that one session with somebody really good would be much more valuable than 5 visits to 5 different randomly selected fitters. If you're trying to address some serious limitations (injuries/problems), the list of really able folks may be shorter still.

LeMond bikes have -- or at least used to have when I paid attention -- relatively slack seat tube angles. Some folks loved that, and many many folks were fine with it, as they were able to get their saddles in the right place with some stock seatpost or another. Maybe there's no way for you to do that with your current ride, but I'd be curious to know the basis on which the first fitter convinced you that things were hopeless -- that your saddle position was so far off from desirable that no available seatpost would allow a saddle position that put your hips in the right place, for you, relative to the pedals.

To come at the problem another way, there's the basic issue of getting decent contact points -- feet, butt, and hands -- such that you can pedal your bike with a measure of efficiency and comfort, and there's the more refined version of achieving the right contact points while being really balanced on the bike. Call them Fit A and Fit B. Unless everything were a total disaster already, I'd look for some real saddle time with something that fit according to Fit A, before I dropped a ton of money looking to unite Fit A and Fit B. And I'd want to work with a particular trusted fitter or builder/fitter, before taking the plunge in any case.

[capybaras]

... strangers full of opinions typing them into plastic boxes.


Isn't that what a fitting is? :confused:

[giordana93]

first, some clarification: so you've gone from a setback post to a zero setback, thus moving your saddle forward already (which shortens reach), and you STILL need a shorter stem? was your previous reach really that far off? (semi-rhetorical question)

second, 2 pieces of advice: 1. make changes gradually and don't change 3 or four things at once (cleats, seat height, saddle fore-aft, handlebar reach, width and height, etc), because you'll never know which one has caused your new fit problem(s); 2 ride any new position a good 300-500 miles before drawing conclusions. a thousand expert opinions (much less from us non-experts who haven't seen you in person) are not worth what your own body is telling you, provided you give your body a chance to adapt to a position. and finally, as a corollary to Ti's advice: there is no such thing as a perfect position. what works best on a 30 mile group ride at 28mph (a so-called aggressive position) will not work for most folks on a 15mph century (closer to a rivendell-philosophy), and you have to communicate to your fitter where you fall on that continuum for him or her to find the best compromise position for you.
post in bike fit area about why you went for the fit in the first place. there's not as much action in that area, but your thread won't scroll off the first page either.

[stackie]

" Matt, in your case I'm gonna suggest option #2, just without the huge price tag. You seem to know my area, Park ave is three blocks from where I live. If you can find your way down this way, I would love to work with you on fit as well as going for a few rides to see what's really going on "

I wish I lived near Ti designs.

Jon

[Ray]

I wish I lived near Ti designs.
Not me man. He charges $800 per day for a mere SLOGAN and he'll make you pedal with one leg! :cool:

-Ray

[johnmdesigner]

...when I had a session on a sizecycle it was very easy for the fitter to put me in a variety of positions to find one that worked with my body type (at the time). I say that because the frame generated has stayed the same but the position has changed (lower and longer) since the fitting (accomplished with spacer removal and longer stem). I have changed but the frame was not some wacked design that couldn't accommodate the changes.
If you found a position you liked on the sizecycle you might be able to transfer its basis onto your existing ride and try it out.
I didn't take my existing bike to the fitter. I left all those preconceived notions at the door.
What he ended up suggesting (for a custom) was not that far off from what I had been riding but the subtle changes made a world of difference in my comfort and riding.
If you cannot find comfort on your existing frame with seat and stem adjustments alone and you don't have any major problems with your body then it's time to move on. But I wouldn't base a new bike purchase on an existing fit that you are not happy with.
Pete gives you good advice. You do not have to buy a Serotta to have a sizecycle fit.

[Tobias]

(Deleted for it was not meant to single out a any specific user)

if I came across as the definitive source, I apologize.Pete, I agree that we should all be as respectful and polite as possible, but I think (other than perhaps the wording) that the question that was asked was valid and important. It needed to be asked IMO.

It is highly likely that any present bike can be modified to meet the contact points of a “proposed” new ideal fit, and to stop short to save a few dollars doesn’t seem to make sense for someone who is contemplating a huge bike investment. :confused:

Granted the new contact points when applied to a present frame may look goofy and may even handle a little off, but unless the present bike is completely the wrong size, it should serve as an excellent test mule to confirm the new fit.

[Ti Designs]

... strangers full of opinions typing them into plastic boxes.


Isn't that what a fitting is?


I'm starting to think that's what a cyclist is...

[capybaras]

I'm starting to think that's what a cyclist is...

You still got it! :banana:

[Ozz]

"let's chill" just means that Pete was in one of his rare white wine moods...
you're on a roll today.....funny guy.

:beer:

"I'm starting to think that's what a cyclist is......

Well, it's what cyclists with jobs are! ;)

[Pete Serotta]

"let's chill" just means that Pete was in one of his rare white wine moods...


I like that and it might be a bullseye of the truth..... :beer:

Yes white and pork tonight....PETE

[Peter P.]

This forum has got to be THE BEST at parting out rational advice, and this thread is a perfect example.

MattTuck, getting another opinion is a great idea. You DO have to be aware of whether the second fitter uses the same system/philosophy because that will definitely affect your position.

My concern would be that the first fitter is trying to accommodate the long top tube by sliding the seat forward rather than adjusting saddle fore/aft strictly for knee position. The latter is the correct choice. Then, I'd sooner spring for that shorter stem than the big bucks for a new frame. I'd ride that position for a year. Then I'd go to another fitter and NOT TELL THEM ABOUT THE FIRST FITTING. See what they say. The object is to try to blend and assimilate all the information you'll glean from the fittings as well as the experience of riding in the possibly two different positions and see where YOU want to go with your position. That will help you choose the right frame for you. Unless you're experiencing some significant problems due to a poor fitting bike, I wouldn't dismiss trying to make your existing bike fit better with position modifications and parts swaps. Once you settle down on understanding your position better, you will have more faith that the custom bike you dream of will no be a waste of money.

[rondie]

I was fitted for a bike and put all my trust in the fitting and fitter. Now I wish I had paid the $$ for a second fitting. I'm very unhappy with the fit. I've lost all faith in this fitter. He doesn't really listen to my concerns but instead arrogantly defends the bike he had built and says there are ways I can learn to ride so that the frame will work for me. I believe this to be partially true (there is significant toe overlap that I can deal with up to a point), but there are other issues. I have put 50% down--$8000 bike (yes, a Serotta) and I have $4000 left to pay. What are my options? This doesn't seem to be a workable situation and I'm feeling like I should cut my losses. $4000 more is going to get me a bike (which by the way is now all put together) that I will probably never ride. I feel like a bit of a fool.

[caleb]

arrogantly defends the bike he had built

We've had this discussion before... Did you agree to the fit? Does the bike match the fit you agreed to?

[rondie]

I'm not sure what you mean by did I agree to the fit. And let me tell you before I go any further that I have never been fitted before, have always bought the mass marketed bike and made it work. From the very beginning I have said that I was buying a bike that was much more than I deserved as a rider, but that it was the bike I deserved as a person who just loves to ride. And maybe I should have stuck with the basic "off the rack" model. This was a treat for my retirement years, for working hard to be fit, and for working hard, period. I'm not very knowledgeable, so I basically told the fitter what I was looking for, what kind of riding I do, etc. and put myself in his hands. It was an extensive interview process, as well as measuring, sitting on the fitting cycle, etc. There was never a point where I said this feels great, or that he even asked me. I didn't know the process and asked if I would get to try out a bike, but he said there wasn't anything available that would fit me. but that once we got the bike in, he would make sure I was happy, and that we would work with it until I was. Now he is telling me that the only thing that can be done is for me to learn different techniques and riding habits to accommodate the toe overlap. I get it, and I'm willing to do it. He said a new bike takes time to adjust to. I agree. I'm just not sure I'm willing to go the extra $4000 with him so that I can take the bike home and work to adjust to it. An example of his arrogance: I said the seat was too high. He said no it wasn't, that he didn't make measuring mistakes like that. Ultimately he measured it and said, oops, he had made a mistake. He didn't realize that I was shifting my body from side to side on the saddle to pedal. That's okay, everyone makes mistakes, but the point is that he doesn't listen to what I say. He has an assumption of the kind of bike I need. And I'm ignorant enough (and I guess foolishly thought I was paying enough money) to trust him because I thought he was the expert in telling me what was right for me. Kind-of like the way people often are with auto mechanics or doctors. You trust them because they have the training. I'm a recreational rider, not a racer. I'm really not sure what to do, and again, I admit that I probably entered into this very naively and without a lot of knowledge. When I was researching bikes, I looked at materials, components, etc.--not the fit because I really had no idea how to proceed with that. Which is why I hired the expert. And I'm sure he's very good when he's dealing with a professional biker. I asked him initially if he would be able to work with someone who really didn't know much and who was an amateur rider who just loved biking. He said he fits all kinds of people. But I feel like his arrogance has taken over. I understand that--I'm embarrassed to say that I'm often an elitist when it comes to my profession, but my elitism doesn't cost anyone $$. I'm not sure how to proceed at this point.

Bottom line: I don't what my rights are as a consumer. And if I don't have any, I don't know if I should just cut my losses and leave the bike there and put the balance of my $$ toward a new bike from another shop. I've tried some higher end off-the-floor bikes that were more comfortable.

I'm embarrassed that I know so little about fittings, that I spent this kind of money on something that I will probably never ride. (And by the way, I didn't buy the bike because it was custom made, or because it was a Serotta. I bought it because I have hungered my entire life for a bike that would fit my short stature comfortably, that I could ride for long distances day after day and because of the fit, would not leave me with terrible back aches, knee pains, etc. And I went for a Serotta because of the reputation for excellence, because I liked what I heard and saw. I was so self-conscious about riding it that I didn't have any logos or names put on it. And I went with the fitter because he was a local Serotta fitter.)

[bronk]

Wow.

I have never been fit, never intend to be fit and after this story I won't ever consider being fit. Like some on this forum, I feel comfortable enough with my current set up and by trial and error, make minor adjustments from year to year. The whole point is maximizing comfort and power. Who else better than you to decide how comfortable and strong you feel during and after a 30 mile, 50 mile and 100 mile ride? Who else better than you to decide how the bike responds in the saddle and out, mashing and spinning, on the hoods and in the drops? How anyone could possibly do a decent fitting without seeing you ride escapes me. Why so many think they need a custom frame also escapes me. The adjustments and sizing options that are available with the bars, stem, cranks, seatpost and seat would accomodate the majority of folks on a stock frame.

Having said all that, I'm fully aware that there are plenty of people who have had positive fitting experiences and would completely disagree. Good for them.

Your can very easily get a gently used dream-frame for 2 g's and a very nice new build kit and wheels for 2 g's. I say cut your losses and take your 4 grand and spend it that way.

[TAW]

I'm not very knowledgeable, so I basically told the fitter what I was looking for, what kind of riding I do, etc. and put myself in his hands. It was an extensive interview process, as well as measuring, sitting on the fitting cycle, etc. There was never a point where I said this feels great, or that he even asked me. I didn't know the process and asked if I would get to try out a bike, but he said there wasn't anything available that would fit me. but that once we got the bike in, he would make sure I was happy, and that we would work with it until I was. Now he is telling me that the only thing that can be done is for me to learn different techniques and riding habits to accommodate the toe overlap.

There's a balance here between what "feels right" and what helps a person develop good technique. A golfer can buy a club that's closed (bent) to keep him from slicing so much, but it doesn't fix his swing, it just compensates for it. In fact, it reinforces his bad swing.

A person who rides with their knees out (for example) doesn't have his cleats adjusted to accommodate his bad technique. So there is always some give and take between comfort and a position that offers a rider the best chance at developing good technique. Every good fitter attempts to put the rider in a good position, much like you'd teach a golfer to use a certain grip, and then the person rides and adjustments are made, he rides some more, and more adjustments are made. I guess I wouldn't give up on your process so soon, in my opinion.

[caleb]

I'm not sure what you mean by did I agree to the fit.

Three months ago I ordered a new custom frame. Once the geometry was drawn up the builder sent it to me with a space for my signature. He needed a signed hard copy of the authorization form to proceed before he would even bill me.

At the point that I signed on the bottom line it was clear to me that I was agreeing to buy the product diagramed on the sheet in front of me. I did not think that the builder or fitter promised me increased comfort, core strength, or better looks. The builder was just promising to turn the frame I ordered into reality. So long as that frame was delivered as promised I understood that I had no recourse if it didn't turn out to be the bike of my dreams.

It sounds like you had some subjective characteristics you wanted translated into a bike. You didn't understand what those subjective characteristics meant in terms of objective measures like frame geometry, or whether what you wanted was possible. That's a big problem. Bike fit is a process of exchange between the rider, fitter, and builder. That exchange didn't seem to exist in your case. All three levels - rider, fitter, and builder - seem to be a little bit responsible: the rider should have known what he wanted, the fitter should have refused to build a bike for an uneducated rider, and the builder should have questioned what sounds like a cockeyed geometry. Unfortunately, when the rider agrees to a geometry, the other two parties are pretty much released from liability for everything except construction and delivery.

[palincss]

At the point that I signed on the bottom line it was clear to me that I was agreeing to buy the product diagramed on the sheet in front of me. I did not think that the builder or fitter promised me increased comfort, core strength, or better looks. The builder was just promising to turn the frame I ordered into reality. So long as that frame was delivered as promised I understood that I had no recourse if it didn't turn out to be the bike of my dreams.


Excellent CYA, but can anyone really imagine that ordinary riders understand the implications of a product diagrammed on a sheet in front of them?

[CNY rider]

Rondie, can you clarify something for me?
It sounds like you haven't yet taken delivery of the bike; is that true?

If you don't have it yet, and haven't had the chance for a few rides, then why are you feeling so negative about it? Is there something you see on the frame, or on the measurement/spec sheet that is really freaking you out?

I'm a little confused here. :confused:

[rondie]

I went to pick up the bike just over a week ago. I tried it while it was on the stand, which is when we made the seat adjustment. That was it for adjusting. The fitter--let's call him Fitter John--showed me how to use the brakes, shifters, etc., and we were done. We talked about pedals--I'm still not sure about shoes, cleats and pedals yet, and that was it. He had another customer come in for a fitting, so the other person in the shop, let's call him Partner Sal, went out to my car with me to help me put the bike in. But I was jonesing to try the bike so I jumped on and immediately hit my toe on the wheel. The wheel and the inside corner of the pedal are really tight--maybe an inch? I really don't know anymore. It didn't help that I have a front fender (remember, I want to tour). This bump seemed to cause the wheel to become untrue. Meanwhile, the top of the tire in one place on the revolution, was hitting the top of the fork. There's really no clearance because I have 28 tires (650 wheels so 28 is the largest I could go although I had really wanted to go with 32s--fitter John said I couldn't do 32s because there are none that fit 650 wheels). Anyway, at this point, I wasn't freaking out, I was just disappointed that I would have to leave the bike. Partner Sal said he was sure there were a few fixes, and that Fitter John would call me in the next day or so. Fitter John never did so I finally called him (a week later). He said he hadn't called because he was waiting for me to call and tell him when I was coming by to pick up the bike. (Poor customer service and not very proactive.) He said that the only thing he had fixed was the dropout, he said sorry about that, and beyond that, the toe overlap was something that I would need to learn riding techniques so that it wouldn't be a problem. He said that the toe overlap was unavoidable because I am short, I have feet that are longer than a person my height would have, and that I was riding clipless. I understand but these are all issues that were present when we started the fitting process. Also, I have an email where I specifically said I was concerned about toe overlap and asked if we could avoid it. He responded by saying that it shouldn't be a problem because we would go to 650 wheels. I can deal with some toe overlap, but not to the extent that it currently exists. Again, bottomline is that I have no confidence in fitter John to work with me. My gut says he's not that interested. And that's why I'm now trying to decide if I cut my losses or put another $4000 into the pot. I really wonder whether it's worth it (although fitter initially said both he and Serotta were committed to making sure I would get a bike that was perfect for me). Now I see, however, that perfect is defined by him, in spite of the fact that I did ask the questions and tell him what my needs and concerns are.

[scottcw2]

But I was jonesing to try the bike so I jumped on and immediately hit my toe on the wheel. The wheel and the inside corner of the pedal are really tight--maybe an inch?

He said that the only thing he had fixed was the dropout, he said sorry about that, and beyond that, the toe overlap was something that I would need to learn riding techniques so that it wouldn't be a problem. He said that the toe overlap was unavoidable because I am short, I have feet that are longer than a person my height would have, and that I was riding clipless. I understand but these are all issues that were present when we started the fitting process. Also, I have an email where I specifically said I was concerned about toe overlap and asked if we could avoid it.

Perhaps you should educate yourself on whether toe overlap is even a big deal...

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=52793&highlight=toe+overlap

http://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com/blog/2006/11/5/toe-overlap-no-problem.html

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=53163&highlight=toe+overlap

[supp22]

I am a real noobie, could someone explain toe overlap please, and just curious, how tall are you and what size feet do you have rondie? Sorry i was typing as post before me was posted

[rondie]

I'm 5'1, size 7 1/2 feet

Toe overlap is when you turn the front wheel and it hits your foot.

As far as the toe overlap being a problem, I think that some is probably inevitable. But the severity of the overlap seems to be a problem. For example, the fender hits the pedal. But when touring, sometimes you have to quickly turn the wheel because of road debris and sometimes, your foot just isn't in the perfect position for this. I'm perhaps a slower rider than most--I'm a photographer and pay a lot of attention to the scenery. With a loaded bike and these variables, toe overlap can be a safety issue. Quite honestly, I've had the problem before, but on a bike that I ride with a platform pedal and sneakers (no toe cage), so I've just gotten used to moving my foot out of the way. It's actually what I did on the new bike when I tried it, but my intention is to be clipped in, and it won't be possible to move my foot out of the way.

[Ray]

You might want to put some time in on this bike if toe overlap is the only issue. Almost every nice bike I've ever had has had toe overlap. I don't think there are degrees of it - either your toe can hit the wheel when it turns or it can't. And when there is overlap, the only time it should ever be an issue is when going VERY slowly, like when you're just starting or stopping in a parking lot and may need to turn very sharply while barely moving. At ANY kind of speed while riding (even slow speed), you shouldn't be turning the wheel far enough to hit your toe. And to the extent its even possible, that's a good time to soft pedal or coast and keep the foot that might get hit down at 6 o'clock or at the back so it won't be in the way.

I've ridden fixed gears with plenty of overlap and never had a problem beyond the parking lot and with a fixie you can't soft pedal or coast. If there are other problems with fit or handling, you have some complaint, but if toe overlap is it, I have to agree with the fitter - it may be unavoidable to get the bike to handle well and its really easy to adapt to. You frankly shouldn't notice it after a while.

-Ray

[palincss]

Perhaps you should educate yourself on whether toe overlap is even a big deal...

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=52793&highlight=toe+overlap

http://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com/blog/2006/11/5/toe-overlap-no-problem.html

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=53163&highlight=toe+overlap

If Mike Barry (certainly an acknowledged master, and one of a very small handful of elite builders) considered it enough of a problem that he refused to build a randonneur with TCO maybe we might want to not just blow this issue off. Clearly rondie feels it is a problem, and his initial crash with subsequent wheel taco demonstrates how it could be.

And let's recall, this is supposed to be a touring bike, not a close-coupled racer.

[Ray]

If Mike Barry (certainly an acknowledged master, and one of a very small handful of elite builders) considered it enough of a problem that he refused to build a randonneur with TCO maybe we might want to not just blow this issue off. Clearly rondie feels it is a problem, and his initial crash with subsequent wheel taco demonstrates how it could be.

And let's recall, this is supposed to be a touring bike, not a close-coupled racer.
If you're on a loaded touring bike with all sorts of weird weight dynamics AND you're totally exhausted from riding some 1200 km randonee, then I could see it being a problem in the parking lot. You're tired, you're trying to maneuver through a tight spot at low speed, the bike with that much weight doesn't handle well at low speeds anyway, you hit your foot, you can't recover, and you go down. You probably STILL don't taco the wheel, but you can get hurt - its not a good thing.

But Rondie is buying an $8,000 bike. Which means its one of just a couple that exist. And while it could be built into a non-racing geometry, I don't think its being built for extreme distance touring with big touring loads. Just a guess on my part, but that wasn't part of his/her description either. I know its possible to design TCO out of a lot of frames and still have them handle well, but I don't know if it is with all, particularly very small frames. Sometimes there are just tradeoffs, even really expensive ones. Sounds like there wasn't great communication on the part of the fitter/designer, but sometimes physics is physics.

-Ray

[CNY rider]

If Mike Barry (certainly an acknowledged master, and one of a very small handful of elite builders) considered it enough of a problem that he refused to build a randonneur with TCO maybe we might want to not just blow this issue off. Clearly rondie feels it is a problem, and his initial crash with subsequent wheel taco demonstrates how it could be.

And let's recall, this is supposed to be a touring bike, not a close-coupled racer.

I hear you and I'm still not sure how important it is.
I happen to have both a Serotta Legend with overlap, and a Mariposa that even with fenders, does not have overlap.
I'm a little taller than the OP (although not much) but when I went to Toronto, Mike made it very clear that he would be building my bike with no toe overlap. I got the sense it was one of his key considerations in designing the bike.
On the other hand, I ride my Legend all the time and the overlap has never once been an issue. The only time I ever think about it? When I end a ride and want to get the mail on the way in to the house, I execute a tight little circle in front of the driveway to get to the mailbox. I just look and make sure my foot isn't in the way of the wheel. We're talking about a top speed of maybe 5 mph here.

Rondie, are you sure that the wheel actually hits the pedal when you turn it? Because that's something I have never heard of and it sounds a little extreme.

[Birddog]

But the severity of the overlap seems to be a problem. For example, the fender hits the pedal.
I'm new to this thread, but that does seem to be severe, and if the design parameters included fenders,then you should have been given fair warning about this problem in advance.

Birddog

[RPS]

I know its possible to design TCO out of a lot of frames and still have them handle well, but I don't know if it is with all, particularly very small frames. Sometimes there are just tradeoffs, even really expensive ones. Sounds like there wasn't great communication on the part of the fitter/designer, but sometimes physics is physics.

-RayOther than gravity being a constant, what’s common between small and larger riders that’s not scaleable? For most practical purposes, isn’t it the diameter of the 700C wheels? :rolleyes:

We shouldn’t blame physics for our unwillingness to design around problems we create ourselves.

BTW Ray, I agree with you that the front wheel should never be turned much other than in a parking lot or trying to make a U-turn, etc…. at very low speeds. The only exception I can think of this early in the morning is when a rider – at moderate speeds – loses traction for some reason and starts to go down, and the only way to save it is by a quick and severe steering input to try to get the bike under the rider. This has only happened to me a couple of times but I was able to save it and stay up. Had I had lots of toe overlap maybe I wouldn’t have been able to.

I’ve seen it happen to other riders also so it can’t be so uncommon. Once a friend broke his bars and was able to keep the bike up after shooting across the road and making what seemed like a 90-degree turn at 20 MPH. To save it, his front wheel had to have been turned enough to hit the shoes. And two years ago I saw a loaded touring rider in Colorado slip on the wet painted line on the side of the road save it by steering his way out of it.

I’m not saying it should dominate design – particularly for a racing bike -- but I wouldn’t dismiss it entirely either for those who think it’s important.

[rondie]

for me, on this bike, the toe overlap is very serious. the wheel can just barely be turned. One spill on a ride 300 miles from home and possibly out in the middle of nowhere might be more than a little inconvenience, especially if the wheel gets untrued as it did in the fitter's parking lot. It's not the getting hurt because it will be a slow speed if it happens. there are enough things to watch out for on the roads--crazy drivers, potholes, glass--without worrying about if my bike is going to perform.
I have another question about fittings, however. Now that the bike is finished, should measurements be taken once more to make sure that my body is positioned according to the original specs, that nothing needs to be adjusted? As I said, the only time he measured anything was when I insisted the seat was too high. Or is it now all a done deal and no more measuring or careful looking at my position is necessary because the frame has been built hopefully to the fitter's specs?
Also, the numbers that he has that he originally used to order the frame from Serotta--if I can get a copy of these, can I get another bike built from them from ANY manufacturer, Serotta or otherwise? when I asked if I could have them the other day, they told me that the numbers were meaningless except when interpreted by Serotta. and how much input into the frame design does Serotta have after their authorized fitter sends them the specs? Does someone at Serotta look the numbers over and offer feedback?

[soulspinner]

Toe overlap on a touring bike with 650 thats a full custom? The front center on a touring bike with these criteria(full custom) should have been designed out from the outset.

[scottcw2]

Toe overlap on a touring bike with 650 thats a full custom? The front center on a touring bike with these criteria(full custom) should have been designed out from the outset.

Call Serotta or email Serotta Pete on this board with the serial number and they can send you a build sheet. It's doubtful the LBS is going to help you if they suspect you are going to leave them with a custom bike and out $4K.

[scottcw2]

I'm 5'1, size 7 1/2 feet

Toe overlap is when you turn the front wheel and it hits your foot.

What is the clearance between the tire and the fender?

What is your crank length?

What is your inseam measurement without shoes?

[palincss]

Other than gravity being a constant, what’s common between small and larger riders that’s not scaleable? For most practical purposes, isn’t it the diameter of the 700C wheels? :rolleyes:

We shouldn’t blame physics for our unwillingness to design around problems we create ourselves.


True -- but for the fact that this particular example is a 650C, not 700C. That's 571 bead seat diameter, not 622.

Now that also has been puzzling me. This is intended to be a touring bike, and yet it's built with 571 wheels, and with few exceptions the only tires available in that size are 23mm wide. Wouldn't it have made a lot more sense to build it with 559 (26" MTB size) instead? There are plenty of nice road slicks in roughly 32mm width in that size, and 32mm is a lot more suitable width for a touring bike than 23mm.