Calling DBRK-- ques on DKS and forks?

[jl123]

DBRk,

I am thinking of getting a used DKS of one sort or another.
I remember some months back how you described the stellar ride qualities of your then new (or at least new to you) Legend DKS. Did you ever manage to improve the damping on it for downhill use- to reduce the pogo effect?

Last, you had mentioned that because your bike was designed around the F1 fork that you were limited in tire choice to 28c. Is there anyway to get around this, and put on some 32/35c's? Maybe one of the newer Wound up forks?

Thanks and Happy Holidays, JL

[Ken Robb]

FWIW the F1 on our CSi will just barely clear a 700x25 Conti Ultragatorskin which measures about 24mm. It will NOT clear a 700x28 Ultragatorskin which measures no more than 27mm and maybe a bit less. There is room at the sides but the top of the tire rubs the underside of the fork crown.

[93legendti]

I put the firmer straps on my HC Cross. Have you thought about an HC Cross?

[dbrk]

There are the firmer straps which I never installed. I never got the bob outta' mine on the climbs but that was not the issue for me. Mine was a truly beautiful bike, I mean it was wonderfully made, clean and crisp, as lovely an example as I have ever seen. But for me the DKS was for rough roads and unpaved hardpack, something we have a lot of here in the countryside but which can be avoided if you want only smooth sailing. I have plenty of smooth sailing bikes and better roads than most as far as comfort goes. So what I wanted out of my DKS it was not going to deliver nor was my context for using it as it was ideal.

With the carbon fork it was scary, imo, to use a Conti 25 because it could easily gum up and badabingbadaboom. But then how do you put a steel fork on a ti bike? And since the bike was made for caliper brakes, it's not like you can use a carbon fork for cross bikes? So the cross version strikes me as eminently more practicable. If I lived urban or suburban and was rarely riding nasty chip or hardpack dirt (think of my driveway, you TdFLers...), then the carbon/no clearance fork would not be so darn annoying to me. But the DKS shines on bad roads or urban bad roads (either way) and the lack of tire options made me realize that my own example---despite the wonderful fit and beautiful design---was not for me. Racer-ish bikes can take tires less than 28c but, for me, I want a bike to handle at least a Rivendell RolyPoly (if it is not a racer-ish bike). My stable of racerish bikes has been drastically reduced because, well, I don't prefer them (BLE, IFCJ, HampstensZ1andMoots,Odonata, that's all that's left of the non-lugged versions). Anyway, I want bikes generally that do what I like to ride better---nothing is more fun around here than 650B, but that's another story.

I have a PsychloYBB Moots that fits the bad roads and FAT tires just fine and I would do the DKS again if there were a steel fork, plenty of clearance, and a design that I loved (you know, longer chainstays!).

dbrk

[93legendti]

I don't expeience any bob on mind at all...

[flydhest]

I don't expeience any bob on mind at all...

I (shockingly :) ) will have to agree. I don't have bob on my Hors Categorie 'cross bike either. I think dbrk hit one nail on its head, however. I am taken with the Hors as a 'cross bike. In fact, I had seen one in the catalogue years ago and was captivated. When the chance came along, I grabbed it and think it is pretty nifty.

[93legendti]

:)

[dbrk]

I figured that if I replaced the elastomers I could have gotten the bob out of the bike and that didn't really bother me. I wasn't really fond of the creaking noise but it was not the issue. The issue was, as it usually is with carbon forks (arrrrgggh...) tire clearance. Why have a bike built for rough stuff that can only take a 23c tire? Who thinks these things up? On anything less than a racer-ish bike, what is the point of having such skinny tires? Do you really think you go faster with them? Uhhh...no, that's a fact.

As for the cross version, then you are dealing with a too high bb usually. There's no sane reason to raise bb height on cross bikes when you are using clipless pedals and not riding them for cross! So, a cantilever version with, say, an AlphaQ Cross fork would be slick but not a cross design, a road design, a sensible one with, say, longer chainstays.

opinions being what they are worth,

dbrk

[flydhest]

dbrk,

I'm agreeing with you, by and large, but, if I remember correctly, my bb drop is 7 or 7-1/2. I would have prefered 8, but it was second hand. nevertheless, these are not the measurements of particularly high bbs, no?

p.s. I learned how to make an avatar. Whatchathink?

[dbrk]

Sure that 8drop would have been better but Serotta didn't go there till recently (methinks it another subtle GP influence over many years of pleading for lower bbs). On a bike that fits you, flydhest, that 75mm would be fine though it could be lower. In general most _real_ cross bikes make for poor road riders since, well, they were designed for racing bicycle steeplechase (sp?).

I like your Avatar too. You've always been a classy fellow. It's that Princeton education and a fine character. So there!

dbrk

[PBWrench]

Fly -- Does your Serotta get lonely when Lucy is at the vet?

[flydhest]

dbrk,

I agree, 8 drop is good.

PBWrench,
Other way around, Lucy gets lonely when the Legend is out on a ride.

[Smiley]

Most early hors bikes were built with a 7 cm BB drop and my guess is that Dave Kirks was too , easy to check with him . And for the record my Hors Cat at 57.5 cm ST and 58 cm TT with a 7 cm drop does not BOB , would have sold it if it did , I do have the stiffest elastomer for a 180 lb rider that I am .

[jl123]

Ken, flydhest, 93legendti and DBRK, thanks for the knowledge!

I can't help but join the chior on here in mourning the apparent permanent passing of DKS.

DBRK,
In terms of the function of the two suspension systems that you have used (YBB, DKS), they make a fascinating contrast in design and their function. I mean it really would be interesting to understand which method really is more effective at damping the types of bumps on most roads. That is, that which best absorbs and disipates a bump(s), and as well that which allows for the least loss in peddling energy.

At least to look at them, it would seem that the DKS sytem was more well-thought out; it having been designed with variable damping characteristics. While the YBB appears to be more of an either on or off type design; which while it absorbs bumps, might not posses the (bobing more) peddling efficiency, and variable capacity to only use that travel which the road requires? I mean does not the YBB bob as well?

Is there any truth to such conjecture; was the DKS (if both had skinny-ish tires on them to make it a fair comparison) theroretically a better design for Audax style road use?

And of course, lets keep in mind David Kirk's other design, the Terraplane, which might very well accomplish the aforementioned design brief the best of all? Its inherently damped shaped-steel most quickly returning energy.

Also, by the way, it could be that if you had saved your DKS, you could have saved the elastomers and then had built a custom (to your specs) titanium frame (not sure just how difficult it would be to copy/bend those rear seat-stays) to attach them to? Heresy? Thanks again for sharing the experiences. JL

[dbrk]

I can't help but join the chior on here in mourning the apparent permanent passing of DKS.

DBRK,
In terms of the function of the two suspension systems that you have used (YBB, DKS), they make a fascinating contrast in design and their function. I mean it really would be interesting to understand which method really is more effective at damping the types of bumps on most roads. That is, that which best absorbs and disipates a bump(s), and as well that which allows for the least loss in peddling energy.

At least to look at them, it would seem that the DKS sytem was more well-thought out; it having been designed with variable damping characteristics. While the YBB appears to be more of an either on or off type design; which while it absorbs bumps, might not posses the (bobing more) peddling efficiency, and variable capacity to only use that travel which the road requires? I mean does not the YBB bob as well?

Is there any truth to such conjecture; was the DKS (if both had skinny-ish tires on them to make it a fair comparison) theroretically a better design for Audax style road use?

And of course, lets keep in mind David Kirk's other design, the Terraplane, which might very well accomplish the aforementioned design brief the best of all? Its inherently damped shaped-steel most quickly returning energy.

Also, by the way, it could be that if you had saved your DKS, you could have saved the elastomers and then had built a custom (to your specs) titanium frame (not sure just how difficult it would be to copy/bend those rear seat-stays) to attach them to? Heresy? Thanks again for sharing the experiences. JL


The YBB system is more, in my experience, a true suspension rather than a dampening or subtle movement like DKS. When you hit a hole the YBB moves at least a centimeter, maybe more. This is great on trails and rough roads, it is less ideal on the road but if you stay in the saddle you don't notice it bobbing or stealing power. For pure road riding I think YBB is overkill and DKS was a better experience. The minor creaking/bobbing I experienced was not the issue, as I have said, rather it was that as a tool DKS was not ideal for my environment or style: I didn't need the subtle dampening and grip with a skinny tire bike. My Moots Psychlo is set up to be a trails bike with very fat tires (it can take up to 47c, I think) and I ride it in slops though I WISH it could take fenders. (In another thread my friend Ray notes that Wound Up makes a road fork with cantis and clearance but NO EYELETS!! ARRRGGHHH!!! 'cause that is a deal breaker for me, call me fussy, but why bother with a fork that doesn't have eyelets? because you have to? Fergitit.) You can lock out the YBB or stiffen it up to the point that it would be more like the DKS but that's not really the feeling I wanted and I've never done that. When you stand up on the YBB the rear wheel STICKS but if you are going really fast and rocking side to side then it's not as great a feeling because the bike will bob a little bit, and I find that not ideal.

I would prefer DKS for audax provided it was a steel bike with a proper steel fork (clearances, eyelets, sanity). But I think the Terraplane would be just as nice because its more a dampening, a calming effect than a true suspension; but then again I'd not think that this was all that necessary on a nice steel bike properly designed unless it was just for fun (and that's really good too but an "advantage"...nahhh, it's just nice).

If I could have a DKS again it would be steel, a steel fork with eyelets, and cantilevers...better yet, centerpulls with pivots. DKS would be a wonderful audax design provided it accomdated mudguards; why go ti? I'd rather have a Terraplane at this point not only for function but for aesthetics: if you are going to mess with an audax bike you might as well go to the most aesthetically Out There look since those wonderful Bates diamant forks...

dbrk

[jl123]

Dbrk, Great points. I'm thinking strongly about the Terraplane as well- imagine one in 650B?

93Legendti, When you said you switched to the firmer straps, which straps did you switch to? How many types did they have?

Thanks, JL

[93legendti]

I think they have 3 diff. types of straps. I switched from the soft ones that came with my HC Cross to the firmest straps. My LBS ordered them from Serotta.

[Dekonick]

You can get your steel DKS - kinda -

Dave Kirk will make you a terraplane that will give you a similar ride with the room for fenders you seek.

I spoke with him in September when I was contemplating a nice steel commuter - but ended up with a not as nice but functional Surly crosscheck.

I still plan on getting Dave K. to build a frame in the future... I just need to figure out what I want it to do. :D

[Dekonick]

Doh! Shoulda read your posts before chiming in.

: grins :

Anyone have elastomers for the HC they are willing to part with? I am stuck with what mine came with. I would like to try the others out to see how they change the ride.

[jl123]

93legend,

Do you find that your cross DKS- with the firmest straps, is noticably less comfortable than with the soft straps. I mean do the firmer straps kind of ruin the intended effect of having suspension? Ever compare yours to the also now-defunct Ibis Silk-ti- that would be an interesting compariosn as well?

Dekonick,

I think your right about wanting to get a-hold of different straps, I mean its not like anyone will ever be able to get them ever again- so its now or never. I wonder if any dealers might have them as well? Let me know if you find a supply.

Thanks a lot, JL

[93legendti]

No, I can still feel the suspension. I ride on some dirt roads with some big pot holes. With the snow cover it is hard to avoid all the holes. It still feels like the suspension is taking out some of the sting.