OT: captain's rescue

[Climb01742]

what the navy seal marksmen did, on a ship that was rolling and bobbing, firing on a lifeboat that was rolling and bobbing, at dusk, at a distance of over 100 feet, with nightvision scopes, with just three bullets is, well, beyond amazing. what our trained service people are capable of is truly mindboggling. bravo to them. from the nytimes:

"Two of the captors had poked their heads out of a rear hatch of the lifeboat, exposing themselves to clear shots, and the third could be seen through a window in the bow, pointing an automatic rifle at the captain, who was tied up inside the 18-foot lifeboat, senior Navy officials said.

It took only three remarkable shots — one each by snipers firing from a distance at dusk, using night-vision scopes, the officials said."

[Bruce K]

Still some of the best in the world.

I am also glad to see they were allowed to do their jobs.

It is time to send a clear message to the pirates and this is the first step.

The world's merchant marine fleet needs to give some serious thought as to whether it is time to re-arm itself in the face of a growing world problem.

If we don't stop them now, how much longer will it be before they turn their attention to a cruise ship?

Still, kudos to the SEALS.

BK

[Skrawny]

Wow.

-s

[Ray]

Pretty amazing. ONE guy misses his target by just a little bit, maybe wounding one of the pirates instead of killing him, and the captain is probably dead now and the whole strategy of waiting them out unless the captain appeared to be in imminent danger, would be questioned and criticized (as with the failed Iranian hostage rescue attempt). Had to be perfect, and they were. WOW indeed!

-Ray

[alancw3]

piracy has been an ongoing problem in that part of the world for 30 + years now. when i owned a saliboat back in the early 80's several sailing magizines had articles about not sailing in that part of the world because of piracy. they would attack private boats, kill the people, then strip the boat of anything of value and schuttle it. i guess the pirates are going after bigger commercial boats now and holding them for ransom. unbelievable in the 21st century.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Don't negotiate and make them know that they will be shot on sight. I'm also at a loss to understand why these merchant companies have not armed their ships before now. This crap off East Africa has been going on for several years now. I think a little "Q Ship" action by them would go a long way to solve the problem . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-ship

Also agree with Ray and I hope those Seals each get a personal phone call from the President.

BBD

[Tom]

Actually, all the pirates are going to do is pick their target just a little more carefully next time. Given that practically every merchant ship out there is registered to Liberia or any other place with extremely lax safety and security requirements and they're practically all crewed by Filipinos, these had to be the stupidest or most unlucky pirates in the history of the world. That these guys brought the US military down on their heads was probably the very last thing they expected.

[Onno]

It amazing what the navy snipers did. I've been wondering, though, why the navy didn't open fire when Capt. Phillips jumped into the sea from the lifeboat, a couple of days ago. It also happened at night, but at that point, he was out of the line of fire, and the pirates were sitting ducks. And that must be what he was expecting when he jumped.

Arming the ships seems like the right idea, except that the sailors aren't really trained, and this could lead to rapid escalation, with the pirates starting with rpgs instead of warning rifle fire. I think the military knows where the pirates are coming from (i.e. which ports). I wonder if the answer is to blockade those ports. Tough issue.

[texbike]

Arming the ships seems like the right idea, except that the sailors aren't really trained, and this could lead to rapid escalation, with the pirates starting with rpgs instead of warning rifle fire. I think the military knows where the pirates are coming from (i.e. which ports). Tough issue.

Sounds like the PERFECT business opportunity for Blackwater. All they would need is 3 guys on each ship armed with a small arsenal. It couldn't be any tougher of a security job for them than Iraq was. It seems like the toughest part for them would be the lack of "no bid" contracts. :D

Texbike

[Birddog]

I've been wondering, though, why the Navy didn't open fire when Capt. Phillips jumped into the sea from the lifeboat, a couple of days ago. It also happened at night, but at that point, he was out of the line of fire, and the pirates were sitting ducks. And that must be what he was expecting when he jumped
I can only guess, but I figure the Navy was not yet ready for such an action. I also think that the Cap't jumped overboard, thinking that if the Somali's shoot him, they are also as good as dead. Sort of a "Somali Standoff". I can understand his change of heart after the Somalis fired into the water, though. Then there is the problem of sanctioning action through the proper channels. No telling how many briefings and how far up they went before the Navy got the OK to act.

It's a good thing Perry, Campbell and Mikelson weren't the trigger men.

Birddog

[chuckred]

now after trying to capture another US ship, holding a US citizen hostage, they want to continue "business as usual" and will take revenge on the US for shooting the pirates...

Criminals unclear of the concept...

[sg8357]

I think the military knows where the pirates are coming from (i.e. which ports). I wonder if the answer is to blockade those ports. Tough issue.


The Royal Navy used to be quite good at this sort of thing, circa 1805.
Anyone have a copy of the RNs 1805 Fighting Instructions to send the
US Navy ?

What would Aubrey and Maturin do ?
Can we issue Letters of Marque and Reprisal and have Privateers
patrol the Somali coast ?

Scott G.
Eighteenth Century Problems require Eighteenth Century Solutions!

[texbike]

I think the military knows where the pirates are coming from (i.e. which ports). I wonder if the answer is to blockade those ports. Tough issue.

Direct attacks on pirate ports or blockades could negatively impact too many innocent people.

Personally I think that this is an easy issue to address. The bad guys are in the boats that attack the ships. If a boat approaches and fires on a ship, it seems pretty clear that THOSE guys need to be smoked. Private security would be perfect for this.

There has been HUGE incentive for these pirates to attack vessels in the past without much downside. If a few of their ships/boats are sunk and a number of their "co-workers" get taken down in the process, it would cause them to rethink their attacks.

It wouldn't address the underlying lawlessness and poverty in the region, but it would help reduce the piracy issue.

Texbike

[RPS]

Don't negotiate and make them know that they will be shot on sight.I agree the only way to stop them is to never negotiate; hence make their efforts pointless. However, I think it’s reasonable to expect pirates will escalate in an attempt to get what they want which will in turn cost many innocent lives. In the long run it's the right thing to do IMHO.

Didn’t pirate ships that approached the area a few days ago have hostages onboard to prevent an all out attack by the Navy? I didn’t hear what happened with them, but if I was a pirate that’s what I would do – I’d surround myself with human shields.

[Lazarus]

We don't have good history in Somalia. Americans couldn't find it on a map, nor recall the ugly scene that took place within the lands of Somalia back in 1993 with Blackhawk Down. Civus Romanus used to mean something.

[Birddog]

What is amazing to me is that the Somalis are able to pull these hijackings off with boats and equipment like this. It appears they use outboards and yet they still range several hundred miles from the coast.
http://d.yimg.com/bg/p/090405/afp/iphoto_1238934909365-1-0jpg.jpg
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/11/21/pirate2460.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-KrcV2IhOYM/R_pxo-MbFBI/AAAAAAAAAXw/VGqXdoCRumI/s400/Somali+Pirates.jpg
http://pursuethepassion.com/journey/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/somali-pirate.jpg

Birddog

[caleb]

It seems odd to me that ships haven't begun to hire private security yet. I'm guessing that a whole lot of ex-Marines could be rented for the price of a single ransom.

[caleb]

It appears they use outboards and yet they still range several hundred miles from the coast.


They launch the small boats from large ocean going vessels.

[dogdriver]

I used to live in a similar world-- stay where you belong and we don't have a problem, but cross a "line in the sand" and I'm going to kill you. Its a pretty simple duality, and one in which the players behave well once they know the rules. These jerks are preying on the fact that most merchant ships either can't defend themselves or aren't adequately defended in international waters. The solution to this problem is easy. Pick up a defense team at one end of the Strait, drop it off at the other, the shipping company pays the cost. Get the word out to the locals that any craft within, say 500 yards, without clearance ,dies. Period. Game over. Kind of like imposing a 20 year mandatory jail sentence for drunk driving-- no one drives drunk any more. Remember, the Somalis aren't doing these hijackings for any idealogical reason-- its all about income. Raise the cost of doing business beyond any expectation of profit and the business model fails.

A cheery message for Monday morn, Chris

[texbike]

I used to live in a similar world-- stay where you belong and we don't have a problem, but cross a "line in the sand" and I'm going to kill you. Its a pretty simple duality, and one in which the players behave well once they know the rules. These jerks are preying on the fact that most merchant ships either can't defend themselves or aren't adequately defended in international waters. The solution to this problem is easy. Pick up a defense team at one end of the Strait, drop it off at the other, the shipping company pays the cost. Get the word out to the locals that any craft within, say 500 yards, without clearance ,dies. Period. Game over. Kind of like imposing a 20 year mandatory jail sentence for drunk driving-- no one drives drunk any more. Remember, the Somalis aren't doing these hijackings for any idealogical reason-- its all about income. Raise the cost of doing business beyond any expectation of profit and the business model fails.

A cheery message for Monday morn, Chris

Perfect, simple, easy solution!

Texbike

[1centaur]

It's sometimes easy to forget the difference in tactics when dealing with money vs. ideology. Raise the cost of business - good thought. Though on the merchant side, the owners have an incentive NOT to hire security (and cut margins) if they think the odds of hijacking are low or they get to free-ride on the potential for security that other ships pay for - oh their lucky crew members. Kind of like the air marshal concept - is there one on board or not? Would be interesting to set up surveillance on the pirates at the port where the security force would board, because they'd have an incentive to know which boats did and which boats did not. Good money for that kind of information.

Some day we'll have satellites that shoot lasers at pirates. No more patrolling a million square miles of ocean in boats.

[seattle]

This is a complicated issue. The Somali fishermen who have turned to piracy, many have seen their livelihoods undercut by overfishing, much of it by foreign fishing boats that work the same waters and employ more complex equipment to harvest fish. See http://apps.carleton.edu/campus/sustainability/Shrinkingfootprints/?story_id=504543. Once again we see that blatant exploitation of the environment has side costs and effects that need to be taken into consideration. Not that it excuses their actions.

Arming merchant sailors is not a great idea -- most of the sailors themselves do not want to turn to this option for many reasons.

Of course I'm relieved the good captain was rescued and amazed at the skills of our Naval marksmen.

[Ray]

Perfect, simple, easy solution!

Texbike
I have a theory that's turned into a belief that problems with easy solutions almost never make world headlines. They get solved. Its the thorny complicated stuff that doesn't get solved that rise to the highest levels of decision making. Some problems can never be solved, only managed. I'm not sure if this is one of them or not, but if its solvable, the solution won't be perfect, simple, or easy or it would have happened by now.

-Ray

[coopdog]

NPR had a good interview this morning with an expert in maritime things. His points were:

1. There are 20,000 sea going vessels within reach of Somali pirates at any given time. So the odds of a successful boarding by pirates is still very low.
2. There is no universal or maritime law regarding arming merchant marines. Some countries may not allow ships to port if they've armed the crew.
3. The merchant marines don't want to be armed. They feel piracy is a government issue and that securing safe shipping lanes is under the purview of the navies.

[coopdog]

I have a theory that's turned into a belief that problems with easy solutions almost never make world headlines. They get solved. Its the thorny complicated stuff that doesn't get solved that rise to the highest levels of decision making. Some problems can never be solved, only managed. I'm not sure if this is one of them or not, but if its solvable, the solution won't be perfect, simple, or easy or it would have happened by now.

-Ray

Excellent point.

[39cross]

So what happens the next time these guys capture an American crew - will it be ransom or revenge?

[bozman]

methinks revenge:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/13/somalia.pirates.revenge/index.html

GREAT work by the SEALS. They are some of the best at what they do.

[Tom]

So what happens the next time these guys capture an American crew - will it be ransom or revenge?

There are very, very few American crews. Most ships are registered to countries with cheap license fees and a striking absence of safety or security regulations. Most crews are Filipinos and from other countries with few resources and fewer expectations of protection by their employers. The ships and cargo are insured. The crews are expendable. John McPhee wrote an excellent piece on this years ago, how the cargo fleet was in such shape that it was not unheard of for a ship simply to break in two from old age and go down in minutes.

An American crew on an American flagged ship, especially one with DoD contracts like Maersk, and the crew coming from the maritime academy with anti-piracy training, some of the paranoids assumed that it was a stalking horse for the US government. Apparently not so, I understand the ship was on loan to an aid program or something like that. Not that holding up food aid to the starving would be a propaganda thing or something like that.

[rwsaunders]

No more room for diplomacy in that area of the world. Not my quote, but I've always liked this....."Diplomacy" is the art of saying "Nice doggie" until you can find a big enough rock.

[johnnymossville]

I'm so happy this ended well. That Ship's captain is a real hero, and those Navy Seals did a great job doing what had to be done.

[texbike]

I have a theory that's turned into a belief that problems with easy solutions almost never make world headlines. They get solved. Its the thorny complicated stuff that doesn't get solved that rise to the highest levels of decision making. Some problems can never be solved, only managed. I'm not sure if this is one of them or not, but if its solvable, the solution won't be perfect, simple, or easy or it would have happened by now.

-Ray

Ray,

I may be oversimplifying this in my typical Texas fashion, but I think it depends on what you see as the problem here. If you view the problem as the act of piracy off of the Somali coast, it seems that an outsourced, on-board security force paid for by the shipping companies on their most vulnerable vessels would help "manage" (but not completely solve) the problem. Much like an air marshall as another poster suggested.

If you view the problem as something more (such as the factors driving the piracy), then you will not have an easy solution.

Texbike

[Ray]

Ray,

I may be oversimplifying this in my typical Texas fashion, but I think it depends on what you see as the problem here. If you view the problem as the act of piracy off of the Somali coast, it seems that an outsourced, on-board security force paid for by the shipping companies on their most vulnerable vessels would help "manage" (but not completely solve) the problem. Much like an air marshall as another poster suggested.

If you view the problem as something more (such as the factors driving the piracy), then you will not have an easy solution.

Texbike
I agree that the suggested method might be the best way to manage the problem. But the more I hear of the underlying issues associated with shipboard security (leaving aside the HUGE underlying problems with Somalia), the more I think its not going to go away anytime soon. Air marshall types of folks might have some deterrent effect, but given the number of ships and the various levels of "vulnerability" it might also just shift it to different ships. I don't know. But my basic point still stands - it ain't easy or it would be taken care of by now. None of this is a recommendation that we shouldn't TRY to solve it, just that its gonna be difficult and will probably have a number of setbacks among whatever progress is made.

-Ray

[Dekonick]

Another solution is convoy shipping. Send a millitary escort with a convoy - that is how the Brits did it and it worked. The problem is it raises the cost of doing business. It is a big ocean. There are a lot of ships.

[Tobias]

Another simple solution is the old "we'll kill ten of yours for every one of ours". When people know you really mean it, it works wonders.

[ridefixed]

Another simple solution is the old "we'll kill ten of yours for every one of ours". When people know you really mean it, it works wonders.

I fail to see how this addresses the issue in any meaningful or intelligent way.

[csm]

I fail to see how this addresses the issue in any meaningful or intelligent way.

seriously? there are at least 3 pirates who will not be taking the bounty of the seas anymore.

[Kirk007]

seriously? there are at least 3 pirates who will not be taking the bounty of the seas anymore.

but given the underlying problem there are many desperate folks willing to take the place of those three. I'm guessing that until the underlying issues are addressed this won't go away. There are so many examples around the world of this phenomena.

That said my brother in law is in marine cargo. His company has been putting armed personnel on their ships for a number of years. One ship has been approached 13 times, and the pirates steered away each time a line of fire was laid across its bow. Deterrence can work. Going one for ten with desperate populations where life is cheap seems to me to be a fast path to ugly escalation and another hotspot for breeding terrorists who hate America.

Finally, the overfishing of the worlds oceans is another one of those pesky environmental issues that is going to really bit us in the a** soon if we don't come to grips with it.

[majorpat]

One point to remember is that a merchant ship has a miniscule crew compared to a Navy vessel. I think the Alabama had 19 crew members. You have to remember that you need one watch running the ship (bridge, engine room, deck, communication, etc) while another watch eats/sleeps. A Navy ship has folks to do all these things as well as monitor sensors (radar, sonar, radio comm) with crews also assigned to weapons systems. Heck, there are even enough guys to man 360 degree watches. It may be that many a merchant vessel is boarded before they knew they had company.
Anyway, hats off to the SEALS for the good work, I once trained as a maritime special purpose force and believe me, in-extremis hostage rescue usually does not go this well. Good shooting.
Pat

[vqdriver]

It's a good thing Perry, Campbell and Mikelson weren't the trigger men.

Birddog

+1 :D

[Jeff N.]

I'm wondering what weapons the SEAL marksmen used to waste the scum. I'm guessing they used some version of the Remington M-700 heavy-barreled bolt action rifle, probably in .308 Winchester (7.62x51). Or maybe .300 Winchester Magnum. Night scopes of some sort for sure. That weapon in the right hands is very deadly. Those SEAL's should be given some sort of an award by the president himself. Jeff N.

[ridefixed]

seriously? there are at least 3 pirates who will not be taking the bounty of the seas anymore.

I understand that, and I am glad that the situation turned out that way. Do you think we should find 7 more and execute them?

[Dekonick]

Piracy on the high sea's has always been death by hanging.

Arrrgh.. matey!

[csm]

I understand that, and I am glad that the situation turned out that way. Do you think we should find 7 more and execute them?
if those 7 take another ship or crew hostage then yes I think that could be a favorable outcome.

[Climb01742]

combating piracy isn't an either/or situation, is it? yes, there are multiple problems at work here (somalia is a failed, lawless state; the oceans are over-fished; a criminal element has taken to kidnapping and ransom as a career option). to whatever extent we can, we should try to help solve them all but that doesn't preclude a well-placed round to the head to solve one part of the problem at one moment. force meeting force sure doesn't solve every problem but it does have its place within our list of options. tactical solutions are still solutions. especially if you were the captain and his family.

our wish to solve the bigger problem shouldn't stop us from solving a smaller real-time problem.

[William]

if those 7 take another ship or crew hostage then yes I think that could be a favorable outcome.


Don't do the crime if you can't do the time...~no~, don't do it!


And that's the name of that tune...

http://i1.iofferphoto.com/img/1162105200/_i/15046938/1.jpg




William

PS: Mrs. William is in Marine cargo. Some ships are armed, and this has been going on for years, not just a recent phenom. As I mentioned in a previous thread: A telecommunication company had cable laying ships placing cables on the ocean floor off the coast of Somalia a few years back. They hired a private security company for protection while doing the work. The cables made it to the bottom of the ocean...as well as a number of pirates. That's life on the high seas in many areas of the world.




William

[Lazarus]

Will Obama pull a 1993 Blackhawk down? These pirates and their weapons come from Somalian land. Will the chronic (three more ships taken today) piracy become a clear and present danger? Will Jack Ryan be on standby?

[93legendti]

I'm in Israel and spent the day with special forces who have trained with Marines and Navy Seals. The abilities of the elite fighters of the US/Israeli armies are beyond my comprehension, but they certainly have my respect and
admiration.

[RPS]

I fail to see how this addresses the issue in any meaningful or intelligent way.Harsh, crude, or severe measures aren’t necessarily ineffective, meaningless, or unintelligent. Maybe unjust, immoral, and/or unethical, but those are different issues.

Sometimes to stop a problem we have to get our hands dirty. It’d be nice if we could talk them to death, but that doesn’t always work with lawlessness.

[William]

Another U.S ship attacked.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30204891

They were fired upon but were able to evade them to prevent boarding. The the captain who had been held hostage was still aboard the Destroyer that responded to this attack.




William