Installation information for 8- and 9-speed bar-end shifters?

[RPS]

A friend bought Shimano SL-BS77 bar end shifters for a 9-speed TT bike and needs to adjust them from 8-speed to 9-speed operation mode. Presently the shifter will run the entire range of the 9-speed cassette from the small 11T to the large 23T cog with only 7 clicks (i.e. – 8-speed operation).

Shimano labels them for both 8- and 9-speed applications but I don’t have the installation instructions for proper setup. And can’t find it on the WEB either. Does anyone know where I can find such data to forward him and/or help him?

http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/EV/bikecomponents/SL/EV-SL-BS77-1664_v1_m56577569830628723.pdf

[Ray]

A friend bought Shimano SL-BS77 bar end shifters for a 9-speed TT bike and needs to adjust them from 8-speed to 9-speed operation mode. Presently the shifter will run the entire range of the 9-speed cassette from the small 11T to the large 23T cog with only 7 clicks (i.e. – 8-speed operation).

Shimano labels them for both 8- and 9-speed applications but I don’t have the installation instructions for proper setup. And can’t find it on the WEB either. Does anyone know where I can find such data to forward him and/or help him?

Man, no idea. I've installed several sets of 9-speed Shimano barcons and a few sets of 8-speed as well. They were always different shifters. The nine speed had nine clicks and the 8 speed had eight. I've used 8 speed to shift seven speeds because the spacing was the same between 7 and 8 (with the width of the cassette changing). With 8 and 9, the width of the cassette stays constant but the spacing is different. I've never heard of a single set of indexing barcons that would work on both, except possibly with the original Dura Ace 8 speed, which had different spacing?

This is no help I realize. But I'm just fundamentally dubious about one set of shifters indexing both 8 and 9...

I'm interested in what you find out though.

-Ray

[peanutgallery]

A friend bought Shimano SL-BS77 bar end shifters for a 9-speed TT bike and needs to adjust them from 8-speed to 9-speed operation mode. Presently the shifter will run the entire range of the 9-speed cassette from the small 11T to the large 23T cog with only 7 clicks (i.e. – 8-speed operation).

Shimano labels them for both 8- and 9-speed applications but I don’t have the installation instructions for proper setup. And can’t find it on the WEB either. Does anyone know where I can find such data to forward him and/or help him?

http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/EV/bikecomponents/SL/EV-SL-BS77-1664_v1_m56577569830628723.pdf

Make sure that they are bottomed out (Lowest gear setting) before you install the shifter. It is easy to wind up in a middle gear and it screws you up later. Other than that, it is real simple to install.

[keithreynolds]

I believe mine [the Dura Ace model] had an indicator on the shifter body. In the diagram this was right where screw #1 enters; the metal loop allowed 8 or 9 speed selection (from memory).

If that is not available, you might have luck with the "Alternate Cable Routing" on the rear derailer (Position-B). See the later post with a link to Sheldon's explanation.

[RPS]

With 8 and 9, the width of the cassette stays constant but the spacing is different. I've never heard of a single set of indexing barcons that would work on both, except possibly with the original Dura Ace 8 speed, which had different spacing?

This is no help I realize. But I'm just fundamentally dubious about one set of shifters indexing both 8 and 9...

I'm interested in what you find out though.

-RayExactly Ray, since 8- and 9-speed spacing is different I’m curious how they vary cable pull per shift. Once I realized it needed one click too few, I installed an old 8-speed wheel temporarily and it worked perfectly – up and down every time. My first thought was that I was looking at an 8-speed shifter installed on the wrong bike but it was labeled 9S, so a WEB search revealed this is not a unique problem. OTOH the fixes I read on other forums didn’t really explain in detail how to switch it from 8 to 9 mode (at least not anything I could follow). I can visualize how to add or limit one extra click, but not how to vary cable pull per click. Apparently it can be done, although I don’t know how. Notice attached page list it for both 8 speed or 9 speed.

I thought Shimano would make installation instructions available on the WEB but can’t find them.

[RPS]

I believe mine had an indicator on the shifter body. In the diagram this was right where screw #1 enters, there's a metal loop that allows you to click forward or back and select 8 or 9.Are you referring to the metal loop used to switch from index to friction? If so, what do you align it against? I don't recall seeing any markings on the shifter other than the arrow to select index versus friction.

[Ray]

Are you referring to the metal loop used to switch from index to friction? If so, what do you align it against? I don't recall seeing any markings on the shifter other than the arrow to select index versus friction.
I have to admit - I haven't kept up with Shimano barcons in the past few years - my old ones just keep going and going and going, so no need to look at new ones. Did they eliminate the friction setting and just use the same loop to somehow vary the amount of cable pull between clicks? If so, I can sort of see how it would work. But losing the friction option is not a small sacrifice, IMHO, if that's how they did it. I'd still rather have to choose between an 8 and 9 speed shifter and still have friction to fall back on for the occasional use of a non-compatible wheel.

-Ray

[eddief]

i always thought these were either 8 or 9 but not both. in a brief googling exercise i did find some mention of one part number being able to do 8 or 9, but there is no other info to support this. think there are 8 speeders or 9 speeders, but not both speeders.

[RPS]

Did they eliminate the friction setting and just use the same loop to somehow vary the amount of cable pull between clicks?No, it still has friction just as before. I only have an 8-speed bar-end on my older tandem and the two look near identical. Mine is a different model and when I installed it years ago it worked perfectly from the start. There was nothing to adjust as I recall. It just worked.

[eddief]

that makes sense. friction does not care about spacing.

[RPS]

i always thought these were either 8 or 9 but not both. in a brief googling exercise i did find some mention of one part number being able to do 8 or 9, but there is no other info to support this. think there are 8 speeders or 9 speeders, but not both speeders.I went back to a 2004 Shimano catalog and they list the model SL-BS77 as a 9-speed for Ultegra -- no mention of it working as an 8-speed.

[39cross]

...Shimano labels them for both 8- and 9-speed applications ...That barcon label perplexed me as well. Here is the answer:

These shifters index as 8-speed with a genuine Dura-Ace 7400 8 speed rear derailleurs, otherwise they index 9-speeds with all non-DA and 7700 series 9 speed DA rear derailleurs.

Full explanation here: Shimano Dura-Ace Compatibility (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html)

If your friend is shifting the whole range of gears from smallest to biggest cog, what cog is he missing? If the derailleur is adjusted correctly he should hit all 9 cogs.

[RPS]

That barcon label perplexed me as well. Here is the answer:Thanks 39cross. I didn't notice if alternate cable routing, but that's one possible explanation that makes sense to me.

Somehow the derailleur is moving more than it should for each click. It's not that it's missing gears, it's just like installing a 9-speed wheel on an 8-speed bike. At the extremes (11 to 12 and 21 to 23) shifts actually work well, but in the middle nothing works right.

Thanks again -- I'll pass the information on to him and see if he can bring it over for me to look at again. I'm really curious now.

[39cross]

I have the same model barcons matched with an Ultegra 6500 triple, they shift 9 speed cogs just fine. Hopefully you'll see something when you look at the bike in person that will turn on a light. Maybe the derailleur just needs an adjustment. Good luck!

[Ray]

These shifters index as 8-speed with a genuine Dura-Ace 7400 8 speed rear derailleurs, otherwise they index 9-speeds with all non-DA and 7700 series 9 speed DA rear derailleurs.

That makes a bit of sense. IIRC, the initial Dura Ace 8-speed used the same spacing as subsequent 9-speed stuff (was that to get 8 to fit in the space previously needed for 7 speeds?). But the DA 8 speed stuff wasn't compatible with any OTHER 8-speed stuff. And good luck finding any of that stuff these days. So, effectively, they're 9-speed barcons that work with a very specific and not often seen type of 8-speed cassette.

-Ray

[39cross]

That makes a bit of sense. IIRC, the initial Dura Ace 8-speed used the same spacing as subsequent 9-speed stuff (was that to get 8 to fit in the space previously needed for 7 speeds?). But the DA 8 speed stuff wasn't compatible with any OTHER 8-speed stuff. And good luck finding any of that stuff these days. So, effectively, they're 9-speed barcons that work with a very specific and not often seen type of 8-speed cassette.

-Ray
Ray, the cassette is agnostic so to speak - there was an 8-speed uniglide hub, maybe that's what you're thinking of. It's the DA 8-speed derailleur that was funky.

Just because it seems so weird, I will quote shamelessly from the link above (to Sheldon):

The major difference between pre-1997 Dura-Ace and the rest of the Shimano lines is the cable travel of the rear derailer. Old Dura-Ace used a shorter amount of cable travel per shift. This has to do with the geometry of the cable attachment. Since the cable moved a shorter distance per shift, effects of cable friction or inaccurate cable adjustment were magnified.

With the introduction of the 6-speed 600EX S.I.S. group, they changed the cable attachment on the rear derailer, so that the cable had to move farther per shift. This reduced cable tension, reduced the effects of cable misadjustment and friction, and generally made for a more forgiving system. All subsequent S.I.S. groups matched the travel of the 600EX, and the same geometry was adapted for 9-speed Dura-Ace when it was introduced in 1997.

He put together an interesting table matching shifters, cassettes and freewheels which is worth checking out.

[mister]

you ever figure this out?

put some of these on my gf bike and they are missing an index stop or two. kinda weird. in the middle of the gears it goes to friction for a few cogs but is indexed on the lowest and highest cogs...

[nahtnoj]

I just installed a set of these yesterday. Had a sticker on them indicating they were compatible with 7400 and 7700 systems. Not sure how this is possible. I didn't think too much about it as I run them in friction mode.

Edit: I see Ray's post has the answer. I've used these in friction mode with both 8 and 9 speed cassettes, FYI.

[mister]

i'm using them on a 9 speed cassette and they aren't indexed correctly for some reason. friction is fine but i'd like to get the indexing to work...guess i'll just have to try to figure it out.

[palincss]

.

[RPS]

you ever figure this out?

put some of these on my gf bike and they are missing an index stop or two. kinda weird. in the middle of the gears it goes to friction for a few cogs but is indexed on the lowest and highest cogs...
39cross’ reference to Sheldon’s compatibility chart nailed it.

I had the owner E-Mail me a picture and sure enough the cable to the derailleur was routed as Sheldon Brown suggested for alternate use – I just didn’t even look at it assuming it had been installed properly. My bad. :crap:

The bike shop he took it to “fixed” :rolleyes: the problem by adjusting the rear derailleur at the center of the cassette so it works well in the middle where he rides the most, but is sluggish at the small and large ends of the cassette. Next time he brings the bike over for a ride I’ll fix it for him permanently by rerouting the cable.

[Brian Smith]

you ever figure this out?

put some of these on my gf bike and they are missing an index stop or two. kinda weird. in the middle of the gears it goes to friction for a few cogs but is indexed on the lowest and highest cogs...

I'd wager that her shift lever guts and/or her campag-square to shimano spline adapter (which resides between the shifter mount and the shifter itself) have at some point become some increment of 90 degrees out of phase with their stock intended positions.

If the shifter can not be installed on the adapter when the rectangular detent of the adapter is pointed straight down at the ground, then you need to rotate the moving guts of the shift lever until it can be so installed.
This problem happens most commonly when a used set of shifters is removed from the donor bike before being shifted into the fully downward position, or when the shifter is partially assembled and moved away from its stock position before the shifter mount is installed into the handlebar.