can stiffer bar/stem = numb hands?

[scpknees]

Made some changes to one of the bikes at the start of the season. added 3x 32 open pros along with a Deda Newton 31.8/thomson x4 mountain stem. I have around 700 miles for the season and im having some serious hand numbness. I did a four hour ride today and the last half hour i was having problems. Last year i could go out on a eight hour ride on any of my bikes and have no problems. So im wondering about the change i made going from a 26 bar and a ti stem that has some flex to it to a super stiff combo stem/bar. I realize i could switch bikes and see if the results are the same, but it wouldn't be totally clear due to the fact that im not letting up on riding to let the hands heal first before jumping on another bike. So has anyone made the switch to oversize bars and stem and have numbness too. any thoughts would be appreciated.
P.S. I tried this combo because i climb out of the saddle alot and thought i might like a stiffer bar/stem. I've also been fitted at a decent shop so i think im fine with bar height/reach.
thank you!

[regularguy412]

I'll ask the obvious: Is the reach and drop the same or very close to your old bars? Also, the way you have the hoods positioned compared to your old bars will make a difference. Lastly, just the sheer diameter change might make a difference. Presumably the the new bars have some type of wrap, which will also make the diameter that much larger.

I'm not offering a solution, just posing questions.


Mike in AR:beer:

[RPS]

So has anyone made the switch to oversize bars and stem and have numbness too. any thoughts would be appreciated.I think vibration affects everyone differently. In the last few years it seems I’ve become more sensitive to numbness in the hands from vibration compared to what I recall in the past. For instance, when mowing my yard with a push mower my hands tingle from the wrists to my finger tips on the inside of the palms. It normally takes about 20 to 30 minutes for the sensation to disappear completely (I’ve been meaning to wrap the bar with foam and tape).

Cycling has only caused me hand difficulties twice. The first back in 2001 when I did a long ride on a harsh-riding bike on rough chip-and-seal and it caused my index fingers to lose sensation for an extended period. Prior to that I had done many long rides on smoother roads without problems so I blamed the vibration from the rough surface.

The second incident was right after I switched a bike to O/S threadless by using a threadless adaptor (which IMO can also add “bad” stiffness). The front end felt stiffer/rougher to me and I happened to develop numbness during a week of riding on relatively rough roads. Not being a strong believer in coincidences I’m relatively sure that excessive vibration can adversely affect my hands. I’m also sure that the same amount of vibration wouldn’t affect other riders equally or at all.

[scpknees]

I'll ask the obvious: Is the reach and drop the same or very close to your old bars? Also, the way you have the hoods positioned compared to your old bars will make a difference. Lastly, just the sheer diameter change might make a difference. Presumably the the new bars have some type of wrap, which will also make the diameter that much larger.

I'm not offering a solution, just posing questions.


Mike in AR:beer:
The reach is the same. I went from a 84 to 90 degree stem and added fizik gel underneath some cinelli cork tape. I always have my ergo levers straight of the top of the bend and the angle of the bar is the same. Im always on rough roads so i can't blame it on that.

[Grant McLean]

google "Ulnar nerve" or "cycling palsy" "guyon canal"

*overuse
*compression
*inflamation

http://www.hughston.com/hha/a_15_3_2.htm

It's not likely vibration that's the cause. Mostly it's the compression of the
soft tissue that traps the nerves between the wrist bone and handlebar.

Loosen you grip, change hand positions frequently, try different gloves,
less typing helps too...

-g

[11.4]

Similar to Grant's observation, you seem to have a nerve compression problem. Not sure if it's your ulnar nerve, though. Your geometry may measure out the same, but it's rare that another pair of bars will allow you to hold your wrists in precisely the same position. If your wrists are cocked slightly differently, you can compress nerve sheaths in your wrist and create this problem. Wrist position can be due to slightly different bar shape, slightly different lever position, geometry variances, bar diameter (including issues like whether your hand shifts slightly because it doesn't want to sit on the edge of the Deda Newton cable groove), etc.

I've become more of a fan of carbon bars for no reason other than that they have shapes and profiles that can minimize such problems. Everyone has their own needs and their own experiences; you're probably just determining your own needs right now.

[scpknees]

Thank you to everyone for taking the time to respond to my questions.very much appreciated. Im still wondering if going back to a bar/stem combo that is less stiff going to produce less numbness. Like i mentioned already the season just started and im getting numbness to a level i've never had. Maybe the thomson stem is just too stiff. would i be better replacing one of the two or both? How about the angle i have the bars at. I have a slight angle to the drops which is where i spend most of my time. Little more of an angle or less?any comments again I'll take what you got.
thank you very much!

[RPS]

It's not likely vibration that's the cause. Mostly it's the compression of the
soft tissue that traps the nerves between the wrist bone and handlebar.Grant, you’re probably right that it may be unrelated, but vibration shouldn’t be disregarded too quickly for riders who ride rough roads on a regular basis. There are many studies documenting the negative effect of vibration on humans and many of those address the impact vibrating hand tools have on the hands and wrists.

Tingling, numbness, and sometimes pain are not all that uncommon. There are standards for how much vibration workers can be exposed to in order to protect them from injury.

Changing to O/S bars and stem is probably not enough of a difference to make a rider suddenly vulnerable, but it’s hard to tell how we respond to minor changes. For instance, as a runner I could do 50 percent more miles per week as long as I avoided concrete roads. You’d think that compared to the amount of cushioning that good running shoes provide the difference between concrete and blacktop pavement would be insignificant, but it wasn’t.

[ThomasAylesbury]

Disc issues in the neck show up as tingling in the fingers. Just a thought.

[rwsaunders]

Disc issues in the neck show up as tingling in the fingers. Just a thought.

Been there done that. Stretching exercises took care of the issue.

[SteveV0983]

I've had tingling and numbness in both hands for 12 years due to excessive ambidextrous mousing at my job. I do not have carpal tunnel, but do have a slight compressed neck disc and found that by doing select stretches twice a day faithfully out of a book by Sharon Butler (http://www.amazon.com/Conquering-Carpal-Tunnel-Syndrome-Repetitive/dp/1572240393/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239572421&sr=8-1), I can work and ride with minimal problem. Earlier this year I switched from a 26.2 bar to an FSA Omega Compact 31.8 bar ($40.00 at Competetive cyclist.com) and a Ritchey WCS stem ($65.00 at Performance) and I have had no problem with tingling or numbness. Honestly, I could care less how light a product is or how stiff it is - I just want it to be comfortable. On that note, many people have warned me to stay away from Thomson products because they tend to be very stiff. Also, I like a fat bar so I first wrap with Cinelli gel cork and then do a second wrap with Bontrager gel and I am quite comfortable. But I could not make it through the day without the stretches. They saved my profession and my riding. Good luck with your problem.

[Grant McLean]

Thank you to everyone for taking the time to respond to my questions.very much appreciated. Im still wondering if going back to a bar/stem combo that is less stiff going to produce less numbness.


You can switch back if you want, but it might be easier to first try some
specialized body geometry gloves. My clients have had great results with
them over the years. This is a very common problem, my staff at the shop
hear it hundreds of times.


http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCEquipExperience.jsp?eid=1366

http://www.specialized.com/bc/microsite/bodygeometry/main.html?x=y

-g

[SteveV0983]

I also agree with the post from Grant. I too use the Specialized Body Geometry gloves and they are excellent for this problem.

[Gseiler]

Hi there. I had a similar problem with Deda Newton Bars. I ride w/one layer of Fizik tape or leather, and unpadded leather palmed gloves, so I am particularly susceptible to uncomfortable bar/stem combos.

I figure that your hands are not well suited for the Deda Newton bars, and you are compounding the issue by running a Mtn Bike stem that is too rigid for a road application. I recommend finding a larger diameter bar at the top bend (something without double channels or 31.8 dia all across the top), and a road tuned stem.

My hands feel great after long days on the bike using the following combo:
Bar: PRO Vibe 7s aluminum
Stem: CNC'd road stem either Thompson X2 or Deda Newton 31.8 stem

Funny but I love the 7s Bar but hate the 7s Stem and I love the Newton Stem but hate the Newton Bar.

Interestingly, I found that my numbness and hand fatigue issues were not related to things being too stiff, but rather to a combination of the bars being too skinny on the tops (due to the double channel), and the bars being too flexy vertically. The skinny top bends in the bar dug into my palms making my hands go numb or worse excruciatingly painful. I switched to a PRO Vibe 7s bar (Aluminum) and I have never been more comfortable. The bar is 31.8mm all across the top, and around the bends (but not in the drops) so there is more surface to put the heel of your palm on, and less point pressure anywhere on your palm. I tried a bunch of bars, but since the switch to the PRO Vibe 7s, my hands have never gone numb or fatigued. (detail trick: The graphics on the aluminum PRO Vibe 7s bars are terrible ! ! ! Lacquer Thinner takes the graphics off with a little effort)

I also found that a road tuned stem helps. Stems like the Thompson X4 that are designed to be used with suspension forks are like trusses. I love it on my Mtn bike but would never put it on my road bike. A road stem should have great torsional stability but some give vertically. I still prefer the CNC'd stems like Deda Newton 31.8 and Thompson X2 road stem which seem to be very stiff torsionally, but pleasant vertically. Additionally, the mass of the stem seems to reduce the transmission of high frequency vibrations. Although I love the Vibe 7s HANDLEBAR in aluminum, I would stay away from the Vibe 7s STEM which is vertically harsh, and not impressive torsionally due to a narrow clamping surface.

Have a good ride.