Lance in hot water

[paczki]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr09news3

[Charles M]

Or thread Title...


French taking a Pi$$ again...

[TC Johnson]

It would not seem to unreasonable to ask for credentials from someone who wants your hair, and bodily fluids before handing them over. Perhaps the gentleman was afraid that Lance would wash away all that EPO in the shower?

It will be fascinating to see if they manage to come up with a test that will show Lance had evidence of excess oxygen use during a mountain stage.

Clearly Monty Python nailed the French attitude towards anyone not French enough: "Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!"


TC

[1centaur]

Bet there are some lawyers who would LOVE to cross-examine the tester.

"So, is there an ID system for testers that the riders have been educated about that gives unquestioned authority to take their samples?"

"No? Did you have perhaps a laminated card; you know, the sort that costs 5 Euros to make at the local Kinko's? Why did it take so long to get confirmation of your authority that Mr. Armstrong had time to shower? Surely that's not a very well thought out system. If the point is to immediately take samples without letting the subject out of your sight, it would make sense to have a fool-proof and quick ID system, right?"

"If Sylvain Chavanel was riding a race in Kazakhstan and somebody who looked like a local approached him and declared himself to be a WADA random tester and to please produce samples immediately, would Mr. Chavanel immediately surrender?" okay - cheap shot just for the sake of :p .

If lawyers could NOT make these arguments, I'll start to think Lance threw himself off the bike and faked his collarbone injury while changing the Giro route behind the scenes, like some kind of master puppeteer.

[Climb01742]

and...
one doesn't go to france to train if evading the vampires is the goal. that's what italy is for. :rolleyes:

[Keith A]

Climb -- That was funny :D

[jmgorman]

He claims that JB was making phone calls to make sure the AFLD could legitimately collect samples. It hardly seems credible to me that they didn't know the answer to this already. At the very least, they both know that officials are not supposed to let the riders out of their sight between contact and testing.

That being said, I'm confident that there is nothing that LA could have been doing in those 20 minutes to compromise the test. This sounds like he was just being a little bitch and is now going to have to deal with the drama.

[Ti Designs]

Is this really what the sport of cycling has come down to?

[Lifelover]

Is this really what the sport of cycling has come down to?

No. This is what the French have come down to.

When it comes to politics and business, the French have always been corrupt. Their dealings with Lance are more of the same.

For some reason they are not able to move on.

One of two things happened:
1. Lance won 7 tours riding clean
or
2. Lance won 7 tours while doping but was never caught.

Either way, they need to move on. They are larger responsibilities than catching Lance.

[Ti Designs]

When it comes to politics and business, the French have always been corrupt.

It's not just the French - really...

[gearguywb]

He claims that JB was making phone calls to make sure the AFLD could legitimately collect samples. It hardly seems credible to me that they didn't know the answer to this already. At the very least, they both know that officials are not supposed to let the riders out of their sight between contact and testing.

That being said, I'm confident that there is nothing that LA could have been doing in those 20 minutes to compromise the test. This sounds like he was just being a little bitch and is now going to have to deal with the drama.

"Just being a little bitch"? Touch harsh wouldn't you say? I think he should just hand over body fluid and whatever other sameples to any goofball that shows up and demands them. Whatever.

One thing about LA, there is no sitting on the fence. Either you really appreciate what he has done for cycling (and cancer research, etc) or you hate him.

[Dekonick]

"Just being a little bitch"? Touch harsh wouldn't you say? I think he should just hand over body fluid and whatever other samples to any goofball that shows up and demands them. Whatever.

One thing about LA, there is no sitting on the fence. Either you really appreciate what he has done for cycling (and cancer research, etc) or you hate him.

That is a load of crap -

I appreciate what he does for the CA community - but in the last several years, I see more harm than good coming from LA and his entourage (for cycling)

HE has more lawyers than a deer has ticks... and that is a lot of parasites!

[Samster]

HE has more lawyers than a deer has ticks... and that is a lot of parasites!now, now...

[Elefantino]

Yawn.

Somebody had to say it.

[Marcusaurelius]

The frenchies don't like lance or at least the frenchies who like cycling and want a frenchman to win the tour de france.

Also, I would even go so far as to say some americans don't like Lance for of course purely political and personal reasons. Me--I love the guy for his courage and magic he creates on a bicycle.

[Ti Designs]

I appreciate what he does for the CA community - but in the last several years, I see more harm than good coming from LA and his entourage (for cycling)


I think it's the press and those who follow every move he makes that do the harm. I haven't seen Lance on a bike since they stopped putting the tour on VHS. But I hear about his urine tests - why is that?

[victoryfactory]

Lance is just playing tit-for-tat with them
He is trying to point out how ridiculous the testing is,
while appearing to fully cooperate.

24 tests this year? that's INSANE

VF

[goonster]

I would even go so far as to say some americans don't like Lance for of course purely political and personal reasons.

There are political reasons for not liking Lance? :confused:

[e-RICHIE]

the catlin is out of the bag atmo.

[johnnymossville]

Some guy you don't know comes to your house with a needle, a piss cup and pair of scissors you'd probably wanna check if he's legit. Sounds to me like they are just looking to stir up trouble. There must be more to this story than we know because it sounds like a non-issue to me.

So he made the guy wait 20 minutes before giving him everything he asked for and now they have their tit in a wringer over it? hmmm.

[paczki]

There are political reasons for not liking Lance? :confused:

Because he's a bleeding heart liberal?
I think it's a little nutty, or suspicious, to go take a shower when a tester might be, turns out is, at the door. He sure must have been filthy.

[mister]

so what could he have done in a 20 minute period to allow him to pass the test if he shouldn't have passed it?

[sg8357]

Is this really what the sport of cycling has come down to?


The sport is in your local races, Lance et al is involved in the entertainment industry.
The ProTour is a cheap knockoff of the WWF.

Scott G.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Some guy you don't know comes to your house with a needle, a piss cup and pair of scissors you'd probably wanna check if he's legit. . . .

Given his notoriety, Lance has more reason than any other pro cyclist to be suspicious of someone showing up and claiming to be a drug tester. Given some of the truly unbelievable--yet true--celebrity stalking stories I've seen in the news over the years, I wouldn't find it unusual if he were videotaping it every time one of these guys shows up. There's simply no doubt in my mind the French cycling establishment has a vendetta against him.

BBD

[goonster]

so what could he have done in a 20 minute period to allow him to pass the test if he shouldn't have passed it?

A saline transfusion, or even drinking a large amount of water can lower the hematocrit significantly. These practices were used systemically, and successfully, in the bad old days before the EPO test, when some riders routinely had hematocrits in the neighborhood of 60. Riders needed less than half an hour to "adjust" their hematocrits.

Mind you, this kind of blood volume boosting wouldn't do much today. EPO and CERA can be detected specifically, synthetic hormones and heterologous transfusions can be found too. It is unlikely that most doping products can be made to disappear in 20 minutes

Is there a test for autologous transfusions, aside from hematocrit?

[paczki]

Is there a test for autologous transfusions, aside from hematocrit?

No.
I have no idea what twenty minutes in private could do to change a test, maybe nothing. But I do know that given that the French authorities do want to catch Lance and Astana, rightly or wrongly, if I were Lance I would not do anything that brought suspicion. In particular after he dissolved his own private super-rigorous doping program.

Don't get me wrong I admire Lance and think he's brought a lot of good to the world.

[e-RICHIE]

In particular after he dissolved his own private super-rigorous doping program.

yeah what's the back story on that?
atmo it was the mistake of the century, so far.

[ergott]

A saline transfusion, or even drinking a large amount of water can lower the hematocrit significantly. These practices were used systemically, and successfully, in the bad old days before the EPO test, when some riders routinely had hematocrits in the neighborhood of 60. Riders needed less than half an hour to "adjust" their hematocrits.

Mind you, this kind of blood volume boosting wouldn't do much today. EPO and CERA can be detected specifically, synthetic hormones and heterologous transfusions can be found too. It is unlikely that most doping products can be made to disappear in 20 minutes

Is there a test for autologous transfusions, aside from hematocrit?

Perhaps he spent the last 3 years stockpiling his own blood.

-Eric

[goonster]

he dissolved his own private super-rigorous doping program.

I can't hold that against him.

A private program has no upside. No one will pay attention to the negative results, since it's private. If anything non-standard shows up (entirely unrelated to doping) he'd be crucified.

Doping cannot be eradicated through testing.

[jmgorman]

Some guy you don't know comes to your house with a needle, a piss cup and pair of scissors you'd probably wanna check if he's legit. Sounds to me like they are just looking to stir up trouble. There must be more to this story than we know because it sounds like a non-issue to me.

So he made the guy wait 20 minutes before giving him everything he asked for and now they have their tit in a wringer over it? hmmm.

But they accepted his credentials, they were just on the phone with Anne Gripper (where has she been, anyway?) making sure AFLD had the authority to test. Of course they do, they are in France.

Anyway, this is part of the game now. In no small part because of LA's perceived doping. He knew that when he came back, that's why he announced his comprehensive Caitlin-plan (now abandoned). The top riders from Garmin and Columbia have almost certainly been tested as much as LA so far this year, so why pretend this is only about him.

[johnnymossville]

But they accepted his credentials, they were just on the phone with Anne Gripper (where has she been, anyway?) making sure AFLD had the authority to test. Of course they do, they are in France.

Anyway, this is part of the game now. In no small part because of LA's perceived doping. He knew that when he came back, that's why he announced his comprehensive Caitlin-plan (now abandoned). The top riders from Garmin and Columbia have almost certainly been tested as much as LA so far this year, so why pretend this is only about him.

It just seems to me that it's the AFLD that's making the big issue and not so much Lance. This happened awhile ago and Lance tweeted about it. I read it and he didn't seem overly concerned at the time, except mentioning the hair sample thing as something new for him. I still say it's a non-issue. I doubt the AFLD will do anything over this.

Of course, we all got sucked in to it for some reason didn't we? I guess more than anything it's hype for the sport.

[Steve in SLO]

...the French have been known to behead their enemies, stick their heads on top of posts and display them prominently during battles to dissuade further attacks. By their standards, maybe all this testing is like a freindly greeting.

[BumbleBeeDave]

yeah what's the back story on that?
atmo it was the mistake of the century, so far.

. . . that he was suspending the deal with Catlin because the anti-doping program used by Astana was just a rigorous. I'm also assuming that the team would be paying for it rather than Lance paying for Catlin. But it was definitely a PR disaster move.

I've made the observation in the past that Lance could use much better PR advisers than he seems to have. It's for certain, at least, that he could afford them. But many other celebrities, politicians and, other public figures have also made the mistake before of being unable to see what they're doing as others would see it from outside.

BBD

[e-RICHIE]

But many other celebrities, politicians and, other public figures have also made the mistake before of being unable to see what they're doing as others would see it from outside.

BBD

tell that to the boss this a.m. atmo.
nawty.

[Elefantino]

tell that to the boss this a.m. atmo.
nawty.
bet patty is kicking his *ss right about now.

[paczki]

It's for certain, at least, that he could afford them.

It's also certain he could have afforded the Catalin-program. I'm sorry but Lance is very smart, there's more afoot.

But honestly I don't really care that much. Paris-Roubaix is Sunday and it's nearly 70 in Boston. I could actually go for a ride!

[e-RICHIE]

bet patty is kicking his *ss right about now.
tramps like us, baby we were born to run around...

[MilanoTom]

Because he's a bleeding heart liberal?
I think it's a little nutty, or suspicious, to go take a shower when a tester might be, turns out is, at the door. He sure must have been filthy.

Didn't he used to hobnob with GW?

Regards,
Tom

[bzbvh5]

Here is part of the Article:

"Johan stayed with him and in his presence called the UCI to find out what was going on. We asked if it was OK for me to run inside and shower while they made their calls and the tester said that was fine."

The AFLD statement directly contradicts this, saying that, "Mr Armstrong, despite being repeatedly warned by the examiner, did not meet the obligation to remain under direct and permanent observation."

What does the AFLD sample collector have to gain by lying? Is he that interested in keeping Lance from racing on French soil? Does he not have a professional reputation?

Could Lance do something to mask a positive test in the time it takes to take a shower?

I'm thinking Lance should be given a warning and just be done with it. According to some other poster on this thread 24 non postive tests this year, that's 1 every 4 days, I'm thinking he's clean.

[paczki]

Didn't he used to hobnob with GW?

Regards,
Tom

Yeah, but he is very liberal. I see that as an upside myself. :banana:

[Charles M]

...the French have been known to behead their enemies, stick their heads on top of posts and display them prominently during battles to dissuade further attacks. By their standards, maybe all this testing is like a freindly greeting.


The last time they did that was long before the last time they were in a war... At which point they prominently displayed their raised arms and installed a new Government ;)



Lance can't win with publicity... When he hired Catlin people said "he just bought his tester..." After the first 10 - 15 out of comp tests as well as the team stuff he decided to use the system as it was testing like crazy and "he fired Catlin because something's going on..."


Lance does have good PR. He's also in a bit of a no win situation with regard to virtually anything he does. He wins and it will be because he doped. He loses and it's because he can't win without Dope. Hell if he came out and said "My favorite pet is a Puppy" the headline some place would read "Lance hates Cats" ;)

[cmg]

can't change a hair sample in 20 minutes. any news is just sellable news if Armstrongs name is on it. this will appear on my local sports news tonight at the end of the broadcast. pure filler.

[Steve in SLO]

Peztech sez:
The last time they did that was long before the last time they were in a war... At which point they prominently displayed their raised arms and installed a new Government

I sez back:
Korean War, according to a book I read some years ago...brandy, too. Those French know how to fight.

[Steve in SLO]

Here is part of the Article:

"Johan stayed with him and in his presence called the UCI to find out what was going on. We asked if it was OK for me to run inside and shower while they made their calls and the tester said that was fine."

The AFLD statement directly contradicts this, saying that, "Mr Armstrong, despite being repeatedly warned by the examiner, did not meet the obligation to remain under direct and permanent observation."

What does the AFLD sample collector have to gain by lying? Is he that interested in keeping Lance from racing on French soil? Does he not have a professional reputation?

Could Lance do something to mask a positive test in the time it takes to take a shower?

I'm thinking Lance should be given a warning and just be done with it. According to some other poster on this thread 24 non postive tests this year, that's 1 every 4 days, I'm thinking he's clean.

He sez, he sez. It'll probably never be resolved, but I can see the tester trying to cover a breech in protocol (his mistake) to keep his job. I can't see Lance being repeatedly warned, then going to take a shower anyway, uhless something COULD be covered up in 20 min. If that had happened, I would have thought the tester would have phoned home to let his superiors know of the situation.

[gdw]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZbd73qLioU&search=french+frog

[paulrad9]

The few, the proud, the french Marine Corp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZbd73qLioU&search=french+frog

French or Brits?

[edward12]

LA should have been a little more prudent. I'm sure that he undertands, as we all do, that the French regualtory folks are not going to cut him any slack for any reason.

Although LA acted quite reasonably when he questioned the identity of the tester, he acted unreasonably by leaving the room for any apprecialble length of time. Moreover, Johan should have advised him to remain in the room.

I only hope that the French act responsibly and, if no evdience of masking or a positive test, is found, drop the matter and allow LA to ride in the TdF.

[goonster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZbd73qLioU&search=french+frog

Not French, but please don't let the facts get in the way of your frogbashing . . . :rolleyes:

[gdw]

Oh well.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Lance does have good PR. He's also in a bit of a no win situation with regard to virtually anything he does. He wins and it will be because he doped. He loses and it's because he can't win without Dope. Hell if he came out and said "My favorite pet is a Puppy" the headline some place would read "Lance hates Cats" ;)

I guess you're right. You can have the best PR people in the world, but it doesn't do any good if you're not willing to do what they suggest.

BBD

[johnnymossville]

Lance has balls, well one anyway.

Men that have a set will be loved or hated no matter what they say or do. I happen to think the Lance PR machine is doing brilliantly here. They have the French Drug Dogs barking at him and it's creating so much free media and fan attention there's no way even he could afford this with all his money.

[Hardlyrob]

Since we're bashing the Francophones here. How about a little look at French Military History...(Buehler, please get the lights)

French Military History in a Nutshell

Gallic Wars: Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian.

Hundred Years War: Mostly lost, saved at last by a female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates The First Rule of French Warfare - "France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchmen."

Italian Wars: Lost. France becomes the first and only country ever to lose two wars when fighting Italians.

Wars of Religion: France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots.

Thirty Years' War: France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her.

War of Devolution: Tied; Frenchmen take to wearing red flowerpots as chapeaux.

The Dutch War: Tied.

War of the Augsburg League/King William's War/French and Indian War: Lost, but claimed as a tie. Deluded Frogophiles the world over label the period as the height of French Military Power.

War of the Spanish Succession: Lost. The War also gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved ever since.

American Revolution: In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw far more action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads to the Second Rule of French Warfare: "France only wins when America does most of the fighting".

French Revolution: Won, primarily due to the fact that the opponent was also French.

The Napoleonic Wars: Lost. Temporary victories (remember the First Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for a British footwear designer.

The Franco-Prussian War: Lost. Germany first plays the role of drunk Frat boy to France's ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.

WWI: Tied and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States. Thousands of French women find out what it's like not only to sleep with a winner, but one who doesn't call her "Fraulein." Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.

WWII: Lost. Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song.

War in Indochina: Lost. French forces plead sickness, take to bed with Dien Bien Flu.

Algerian Rebellion: Lost. Loss marks the first defeat of a Western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare -"We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese, and Eskimos.

War on Terrorism: France, keeping in mind its recent history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just to be safe.

[Hardlyrob]

This just in from Lance hisself...
http://www.livestrong.com/lance-armstrong/video/5345-update-lances-injury-response-drug/5345/

I guess this is the proverbial "Film at 11..."

Rob

[Steve in SLO]

Nice video. Lance says he expects this to escalate, and that there's a good likelihood that he may be prohibited from riding the TdF. That would be a shame on many levels.

[Climb01742]

Although LA acted quite reasonably when he questioned the identity of the tester, he acted unreasonably by leaving the room for any apprecialble length of time. Moreover, Johan should have advised him to remain in the room.

you make a very good point. regardless of how the tester acted, it would have been wise for lance to stay within sight and... sit down, stretch, relax, make phone calls, eat, whatever...but just do it within view. by going out of sight, he gave the french a molehill to make whatever mountain they wish.

[indyrider]

he was just being a little bitch and is now going to have to deal with the drama.

Actually, karma's a bitch, and I hope he gets what he deserves :no:

[r_mutt]

you make a very good point. regardless of how the tester acted, it would have been wise for lance to stay within sight and... sit down, stretch, relax, make phone calls, eat, whatever...but just do it within view. by going out of sight, he gave the french a molehill to make whatever mountain they wish.

if there's one rule that is understood by every rider in the peleton, it's that you don't disappear just before you are about to be tested- especially when you're the "most tested athlete in history". for him to even ask if it was ok to leave to room for a shower is preposterous. armstrong is not an idiot- he knew exactly what he was doing.

[Marcusaurelius]

if there's one rule that is understood by every rider in the peleton, it's that you don't disappear just before you are about to be tested- especially when you're the "most tested athlete in history". for him to even ask if it was ok to leave to room for a shower is preposterous. armstrong is not an idiot- he knew exactly what he was doing.

That only holds any water if you believe the french version of events which I do not. I believe the Lance version in which the tester gave lance permission to take a shower.

Of course the virulence of the Lance haters makes the truth seem distant and remote at times.

[r_mutt]

the french version is irrelevant. as someone who has been tested 25 times this year alone, and how many hundred times in his sporting life, he knows what the rules are- bruneel knows as well. they have been in place for over 8 years.

even if the testee said it was ok to shower (which i highly doubt as this is as basic a protocol to the test as there is), he should know better than to ask, and to actually do. the mere fact that LA says that he asked for permission to shower shows you that armstrong knew that it was a questionable action.

[jmgorman]

French Military History in a Nutshell....

Wow, did you just copy and paste that from dickipedia, or did you misrepresent it all by yourself.

[Lifelover]

Since we're bashing the Francophones here. How about a little look at French Military History...(Buehler, please get the lights)

French Military History in a Nutshell.

"......the French haven't the nature for war. Their Gallic laziness combines with their Latinate voluptuousness with the result that they would rather eat and make love with their faces than fight"

[scottcw2]

Wow, did you just copy and paste that from dickipedia, or did you misrepresent it all by yourself.

"Misrepresent"??? It was quite accurate.

[Marcusaurelius]

the french version is irrelevant. as someone who has been tested 25 times this year alone, and how many hundred times in his sporting life, he knows what the rules are- bruneel knows as well. they have been in place for over 8 years.

even if the testee said it was ok to shower (which i highly doubt as this is as basic a protocol to the test as there is), he should know better than to ask, and to actually do. the mere fact that LA says that he asked for permission to shower shows you that armstrong knew that it was a questionable action.


Well again you are of course speculating on what Lance knew or didn't know, you actually have no idea what lance what was thinking. I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt and believe his version of the events.

[r_mutt]

if lance doesn't know the protocol by now after years of cycling, he's an idiot.
lance is many things, but he's no moron.

[Walter]

What does the AFLD sample collector have to gain by lying?

If he were telling the truth then why didn't his form signed at the time of the test indicate there was a problem?

There is more to this than what has been discussed thus far here. If one believes the UCI/McQuaid statement it appears the French were way over the line here. Keep in mind that the relationship between LA and the heads of the UCI has not always been cordial. Thus, the fact they come out in support of him should have some traction.

"The French authorities decided to make up a report on the testing procedure, forward it to the UCI, knowing the UCI have no jurisdiction on the case and at the same time that report has leaked to the press. I would have to question why that is the case. Normal proceedings between institutions such as national anti-doping agencies, the international federation and WADA are normally done in a professional and confidential way until a decision or sanction has been taken. In this case it was leaked to the press and I do find that disturbing."

McQuiad also answered the comment here that LA should have known the protocol:

"The tester has to have a specific instruction that the athlete must remain under his supervision from the moment he is notified until the test is concluded. From my understanding, this was not the case. Lance Armstrong had every right to take a shower while his manager (Astana team head Johan Bruyneel) checked with the UCI that these people had the authority to take these samples. During that time his manager rang me and I put him on to our anti-doping manager, who confirmed that it (the AFLD) has the authority to take samples." (emphasis supplied).

Remember that this is the same merry band of testers whose lab chief sold the '99 results to news media outlets (in France)....and did not get fired.

It would be interesting to see how many times these same folks have tested any French riders during the same time frame and to compare it to the 24 tests (all clean) LA has been subjected to.....

[Lazarus]

What does the AFLD sample collector have to gain by lying? If he were telling the truth then why didn't his form signed at the time of the test indicate there was a problem?

Bingo