Hey Dave Kirk ?

[Smiley]

Whats the deal with the patent on the DKS rear end. How long does it stay in Serotta's domain and can it be copied by others. Sometimes great inventions only catch on once copied. During your development of said invention were you looking at other variations of spring leaves and any other tid bits your not bound by as I would sure hate for the goverment to audit your tax returns. Thanks

[David Kirk]

Hello there,

You know, I'm not sure how long it lasts.....and I'm not sure it matters to me frankly.

I won't be doing anything that would fall under thier patent just out of respect. It's true that I did the work but I was paid well for it and now Ben owns the idea and that's how it is.

The only way I would do DKS bike is with Ben's permission. I've asked a few times and never gotten an answer so I'm taking that as a "no".

I think your best chance of getting a new DKS is convincing Serotta that there is a market. How many folks out there in forum land are ready to throw down for one ?

Dave

[Johny]

"The only way I would do DKS bike is with Ben's permission. I've asked a few times and never gotten an answer so I'm taking that as a "no"."

Maybe I am not as interested as Smiley and others in a DKS. However, it is difficult for me to reason why Ben does not let this patent go if he does not want to use it. Does he want to sell the patent? Sorry, I see it as a waste of such a good idea.

[jl123]

In my work I think about legal and ethical issues (I write software) all the time. In my work I always try my harest to understand the other guy's side- looking for any rationale another person might have for acting/thinking in a particular way.

I'm trying to imagine Serotta's position on this. They might want to hold the patent, so possibly one day they could re-introduce a new iteration of DKS. Another possibility is they might want to merely keep the exclusivity of being the only manufacturer who builds such a suspension system as on the ST bikes- and try to keep anyone else from even entering the zone of a DKS like system; as a marketing decision. (like Audi and Subaru with 4WD) Or last they may indeed want to keep the patent (like was written in the prior post) so they can keep the option of selling it to one of the big bike corps.

With all this in mind, I still see not ONE logical argument (unless its personal) for keeping the patent from a longtime and loyal employee who invented it, and who now as a very small production builder might like a legal contract that allows him to build such bikes in very small numbers. Not to mention the fact that Kirk could further develop the system so that it actually works better, for both companies benefit.

With a well written legal contract, and small production numbers, Kirk cycles would pose absolutly no threat to the (whether to the patent, marketing/economic) legitimacy or future profit of DKS. In fact if one were to be a real stickler about it they could even stipulate that the contract must end upon the sale of the patent. Kirk's use of the DKS system in limited numbers poses no legal, ethical or economic threat to Serotta at all. Psychology though is another thing altogether.

[M_A_Martin]

Dave,
I was fiddling with buying a DKS before my motorcycle accident. I really appreciate the engineering that went into the design.

Perhaps I'm the only one ready to put cash down on a DKS bike. And I would not purchase a DKS that was built by say....Trek...Good news for others who want a Hors is that they are starting to appear on the used market (I asked Kelly if they'd chop the head tube off a used DKS and shorten the top tube on the bike to fit me...No.)

Not much of a market eh?

Mary Ann

[dbrk]

As I recall, several companies have licensed the Moots YBB system, so there is fine precedent in the cycling community for different companies using the ideas/patents/bits of another. This was, I believe, Merlin who was also using Cannondale headshocks or something too.
Why not a DKS on a DK bike?

Well, I want one of the curveystay MRBs but I'm not in a position just yet to plunk down, so I'll stay quiet. We got some dirt tracks and roads here in the FingerLakes that would be just right for a fatter tire road bike with that rear...

To M.A.: you will get about 90% more suspension than you currently have by going to a bigger tire, like a Rivendell Roly Poly. This may not be your style but it is surely more like the solution to cushier. Tires are about half of the story, ask any hardcore mtn biker or Sheldon, Grant, et.al. Just a thought.

dbrk

[mtflycaster]

Looks to me like the patent issued August 29, 2000 and was filed April 10, 1998. So, it should be good for 20 years from the filing date. Not sure if there are any foreign patents issued.

Patent number is 6,109,637 and you can find it at www.uspto.gov.

Interesting to look at.

Pete

[Smiley]

Are you sure , the Wright brothers would have owned aviation with a 20 year patent life. I thought it was 7 years ? Not a patent attorney though, I also thought drug patents were longer. Please someone set me on the correct path.

[dnovo]

Come on, Smiley, stop pushing for more DKS frames. Don't want to dilute the value of the few that were built, do we? Dave ("I got mine") N.

[Smiley]

I thanked Todd when I got the news ( the death of DKS ) realizing that the value of my bike went UP. I regret not placing an order that day for an Ottrott DKS. I realize that an Ottrott ST would be fine for me but since I have ridden both the DKS rear and the ST rear , I'd much prefer the DKS and I have said that to anyone that has asked me. This is not to imply for one second that the ST stay pivoted ala the DKS is not a fine invention its just to say that in this engineers mind the DKS is much better for its intended purpose.
One day Dave you and I will remember this thread because this system in some new form will be re-introduced on a bike, well laugh and say we said so.

[Stewball]

An aspect of a true exotic is low production volume, along with high tech material and a design no one else should attempt. Not everyone can craft something that is truely special. It takes a gifted team to make such a dream (ride) come true. I thank the designer and the team that made my Hors Catagorie and wish them both success.

Almost every time I take a road ride the question will come up, "What's with the back of your bike?". The answer will usually get a, "good idea" response. This isn't a bike for everyone but, there are those that do understand it, (particularly chasing it down a challenging grade of old road).

Although I wouldn't buy another Hors, (you won't separate me from this one ever) my vote would go to continuing the line on a, "you might have to wait a long time for this" basis. It's an exotic, you don't rush good food.

Have fun,
AJ
Who believes in Mercedes for the safety and Ferrari for the fun. Yea, I ride a Hors.