OT - tech question about using wi-fi on cell phones

[Ray]

I have a blackberry that can be used for calls via both the regular cell network and wi-fi. I can turn the phone network off completely, but if I'm in a wi-fi area, I can make and receive calls. Obviously these wi-fi calls are via the internet. I'm still billed for my minutes - I guess the cell company knows that the number is in use regardless of whether its wi-fi or via cell towers.

My question has to do with international calling. It seems to me that if you're making a call over the internet via wi-fi (and the cell network is turned off), the cell company doesn't know WHERE you're calling from, just that you're calling via the internet. So, ostensibly, they should still count any such call against your minutes, but shouldn't charge you for the heavy roaming and long distance fees for international calling. I'm going to be in Mexico next week (hopefully, one of the safe parts) and am guessing that I can make calls back to the States for no additional charge if I'm only using wi-fi. Does anyone know if this is correct? Is there some way the cell provider can tell where I'm calling from if the call is going through wi-fi? They won't say - they just indicate that you can try it but they can't guarantee that you won't be charged roaming fees. Which sounds like a dodge to me - they don't want to ENCOURAGE a workaround that will cost them potential fees, but it sounds like it should work.

Do any of you technically adept folks KNOW about this? Either because you get the tech part or just from experience.

TIA for any thoughts,

-Ray

[93legendti]

I have a blackberry that can be used for calls via both the regular cell network and wi-fi. I can turn the phone network off completely, but if I'm in a wi-fi area, I can make and receive calls. Obviously these wi-fi calls are via the internet. I'm still billed for my minutes - I guess the cell company knows that the number is in use regardless of whether its wi-fi or via cell towers.

My question has to do with international calling. It seems to me that if you're making a call over the internet via wi-fi (and the cell network is turned off), the cell company doesn't know WHERE you're calling from, just that you're calling via the internet. So, ostensibly, they should still count any such call against your minutes, but shouldn't charge you for the heavy roaming and long distance fees for international calling. I'm going to be in Mexico next week (hopefully, one of the safe parts) and am guessing that I can make calls back to the States for no additional charge if I'm only using wi-fi. Does anyone know if this is correct? Is there some way the cell provider can tell where I'm calling from if the call is going through wi-fi? They won't say - they just indicate that you can try it but they can't guarantee that you won't be charged roaming fees. Which sounds like a dodge to me - they don't want to ENCOURAGE a workaround that will cost them potential fees, but it sounds like it should work.

Do any of you technically adept folks KNOW about this? Either because you get the tech part or just from experience.

TIA for any thoughts,

-Ray
Ray, I have an iphone, with service thru ATT. I looked into this re: our upcoming Israel trip. I was told that international usage is VERY expensive and was advised by the store and an Israeli customer in the store that it was better to rent a phone for Israel, rather than use my iphone and incur the international charges.
So, at least with ATT and if we can believe what I was told, they would "know" if you are in Mexico and not the USA.

[Ray]

Ray, I have an iphone, with service thru ATT. I looked into this re: our upcoming Israel trip. I was told that international usage is VERY expensive and was advised by the store and an Israeli customer in the store that it was better to rent a phone for Israel, rather than use my iphone and incur the international charges.
So, at least with ATT and if we can believe what I was told, they would "know" if you are in Mexico and not the USA.
Adam, did you ask specifically about wi-fi calling or just about international calling? I know international calling is wicked expensive on the cell network and I assume it would be on wi-fi if they know where you are. I'm just not sure they'll know where I am since its basically an internet VOIP call at that point. Does the iPhone have wi-fi - I know the first version didn't but I think the new ones do?

-Ray

[356a]

Yes, the first version of the iphone had wifi, as does the 3g version. It was not 3g, only on edge though but had wifi.

with the iphone, you can download a new app (released this week) for Skype.

Skype lets you call via VOIP (voice over internet) - and the rates for example between the US and UK are 2 cents a minute. if you call another skype account, it is free. The negative is you won't get incoming calls unless you are prepared to receive them without getting a package with a phone number on it.

ATT blocks this so it will only work when connected to a wifi network, unless you jailbreak the phone and install a program called voipover3g.

Or you can use your computer and a skype account for the same cost above.

Skype lets you buy a phone number so people can call you or leave a vm.

I dont know if there is a skype program on the blackberry go google it.

go to macrumors.com and search forum on skype for more info for iphone users.

it is a great program and service.

make sure you turn data roaming off when international or you can generate a 500 dollar bill in a week just from the phone checking in. if you unlock your iphone (which takes some work and isn't ATT approved), you could buy a SIM card in Israel for another GSM network and use it, but your simplest is to rent a phone.

[93legendti]

Adam, did you ask specifically about wi-fi calling or just about international calling? I know international calling is wicked expensive on the cell network and I assume it would be on wi-fi if they know where you are. I'm just not sure they'll know where I am since its basically an internet VOIP call at that point. Does the iPhone have wi-fi - I know the first version didn't but I think the new ones do?

-Ray
I just asked about international calling. The iphone 3G does have wifi.

[Ray]

I dont know if there is a skype program on the blackberry go google it.
I don't travel internationally much at all, so a whole separate service isn't worth it to me. Are you saying though, that if I make a call using only a wi-fi connection in Mexico that my cell provider will know where I'm calling from and bill me international rates? Or will it see this call the same way it sees a wi-fi only call I make from the corner coffee shop here at home?

And Adam, thanks for the clarification.

-Ray

[cp43]

I don't travel internationally much at all, so a whole separate service isn't worth it to me. Are you saying though, that if I make a call using only a wi-fi connection in Mexico that my cell provider will know where I'm calling from and bill me international rates? Or will it see this call the same way it sees a wi-fi only call I make from the corner coffee shop here at home?

-Ray


I'm pretty sure that you provider would be able to determine where you are, or at least which country you are in, based on your IP address. So, I would think that it is technically possible for them to charge you an international rate, for a call you make over wifi, but it sounds like they won't, based on what they told you.

Chris

[Ray]

I'm pretty sure that you provider would be able to determine where you are, or at least which country you are in, based on your IP address. So, I would think that it is technically possible for them to charge you an international rate, for a call you make over wifi, but it sounds like they won't, based on what they told you.

Chris
Oh OK - that's the information I was looking for. So, the internet cafe or hotel or whoever is providing the internet service down there will have an ISP address that they'll be able to locate (at least regarding country). I assume they will charge me international rates if they know where the call is coming from. I was just thinking (hoping?) that an internet call is an internet call and they wouldn't necessarily know where its coming from. I'm only likely to make a couple of short calls while I'm down there, so I'll do it through the wi-fi if available and will see whether they charge me for them.

Thanks much,

-Ray

[jmeloy]

Ray, with ATT you can add international calling for a 90 day period for ~45 per month. With it your cost per minute goes way down.... less than a buck a minute. Not great but significantly lower than what you pay otherwise.
p.s. on a Blackberry you do not get charged for data usage unless you OPEN a message.

[356a]

Ray, with ATT you can add international calling for a 90 day period for ~45 per month. With it your cost per minute goes way down.... less than a buck a minute. Not great but significantly lower than what you pay otherwise.
p.s. on a Blackberry you do not get charged for data usage unless you OPEN a message.


If you do this, make sure you keep the international plan in place for up to 2 months when you return, because the plan only counts when the call is billed to your carrier, not when you made it. There were many unhappy individuals who found that out the hard way.

As to the wifi rate on voip mentioned above, my guess is you will pay the same rate as the cell phone one - why wouldn't they if that is what they do in the US. Google question on the forums to get the answer.

[93legendti]

I don't travel internationally much at all, so a whole separate service isn't worth it to me. Are you saying though, that if I make a call using only a wi-fi connection in Mexico that my cell provider will know where I'm calling from and bill me international rates? Or will it see this call the same way it sees a wi-fi only call I make from the corner coffee shop here at home?

And Adam, thanks for the clarification.

-Ray
Any time.

[scottaharper]

Ray does not list the cell provider that he is using, but it sounds like the UMA functionality that TMobile provides on some of their Blackberry models. It requires server side stuff on the cell provider side (which AT&T does not provide) and special stuff in the device firmware (that is not present in the iPhone). I have just started to play with this, but I think it will provide a mechanism to avoid additional charges when you are overseas. There is a $10 per month service you can add, where you can make unlimited calls over wifi.

[gone]

Not a direct answer to your question but another alternative.

You can call AT&T and get the unlock code for your phone. Note that this will not be easy, you're going to have to push. It took me three levels of management to get my phone unlocked:


First level: "Let me tell you about the many advantages of using AT&T international service...."
Second level: "You've only had your phone for less than a month, you don't have a track record with AT&T so you'll take our expensive phone once we've unlocked it and go somewhere else". I pointed out that even though I was within the 30 days and therefore could leave, if I did so and took the phone with me I'd have to pay out the wazoo for it. Response? "Oh. I still can't do it".
Third level: Repeat arguments with levels one and two, finally said ok and helped me unlock the phone.
Total time on phone to get this done: 1 hour, 15 minutes


Alternatively, there's probably a place local to you that does it (I live in a small town and there's one about 1.5 miles away) for a fee ($25) or there are places on the web (google "unlock cell phone") that'll do it for less.

Once unlocked, go to your country of choice, buy a pay as you go SIM card and make all the local calls you want for practically nothing.