Fundraising on the Forum--Is it appropriate?

[BumbleBeeDave]

To All . . .

After watching the threads develop about the donations to the Sierra Nevada Team/Davis Phinney
foundation. I feel this is a question that needs to be politely asked and discussed.

Fundraising is a subject that engenders a lot of different feelings in different people. It often seems that groups or organizations are everywhere asking for your help, especially at this time of year. We have run stories in the paper I work for about “charity fatigue” as people are bombarded with so many messages asking for donations that they start to tune them all out, rather than considering what each charity is really about and making informed decisions as to which deserve their personal support.

But are these messages something we should have on this forum? Or should there be something added to the user agreement that either sets guidelines for doing it or just says we are not going to any more?

Here’s why I ask, and I hope I can do it without offending or insulting anyone on any side of this issue, because that’s not my intention. Promises are easy to make but often not as easy to follow through on in real life--ask any novice politician. There was seeming great enthusiasm for the idea to collect funds for the team, but then people’s differing styles and expectations took over to a degree that I think ended up creating some unintended bad feelings.

Some people sent in their donation immediately, some obviously folded it into their own monthly budgets and put it on the list to send in after they paid the rent and the electric bill--which meant they weren’t sending it in as promptly as others may have liked. Others just maybe spoke too soon and then realized they had spoken too quickly, given their finances or true feelings after later reflection. Several others began reminding donors about their commitment--a very good faith effort that seems to have backfired a bit. Some forum members--again in total good faith and generosity--offer to make up the difference, which may in itself be taken the wrong way by some others.

Anyway, I worry that such conversations, including the well-intentioned efforts of “Santa Claus” and “Satan” may make some forum members uncomfortable, feeling they are being “guilted” or humiliated into donating. Our well meaning efforts to help a cause some feel is worthwhile may end up actually driving potential or present forum members away, defeating the purpose of the fundraising effort and the forum as a whole.

Let’s make no mistake--$2500 is not a major budget item for a team like Sierra Nevada. Personally, I would almost rather just donate the money to the Davis Phinney Foundation anyway, a non-profit entity that will most likely put it to better use. After all, the cycling team IS, at it’s core, an advertising vehicle for a beer company, not a charity for the riders, who are paid employees.

But anyway, should we do this again? Is it more trouble than it’s worth? I think we should talk about it . . .

Respectfully . . . BBDave

[Andreu]

I am in no way offended by what has gone on. People can ask. I just hope there is no offence taken if they don't get the answer they want from me.

I don't think people should have to justify sending or not sending money - it is a personal choice....just like asking in the first place nor even changing their minds about donating. I think there is a genuine charitable event occurring and it is good to see. I wish sometimes I was a bit "closer to the action" but we live where we live.

I am not sure on the logisitics of getting money to the US but that said I have a list of charities and unfortunately this time around the "Serrota hosted" efforts are not on it.

The question of "outing" or "pressurising" is a tricky one and since I didn't commit to anything in the first place I don't think it is my place to comment. I do hope you reach the target and at least have a choice about what to do with the money - which is a damn sight better than raising no money whatsoever.
Good luck and hope you all have a great Christmas and New Year.
Andreu :banana: :beer:

[Smiley]

I thought this effort was more a TOKEN way to show our THANKS to Ben Serotta for making the Forum possible . The choice came down to giving to to one of either two causes that we suspected were close to Ben's heart , His bike team or a rider that meant alot to him ie: Davis Phinney . I am really not in favor of Open fund raising but that does not mean I won't contribute to a good cause. If you recall Kahuna's mother had cancer and he solicited funds for LAF on behalf of his fund raising cause . Anyway I think in my mind this effort would have meant more to me if more people gave a smaller amont rather than Sandy , Kevin and Climb bearing the brunt of the load. And I do agree with you BBDave we all have priorities that we need to address first . This is the time of year that my wife and I round out all our chairatble donatings for and send them cash . My wife knows first hand working with Special Olympics how charities have had a hard time raising money after 9-11 . So where ever you chose to give please give, cause I am sure they need your help . I know we can all help out our favorite causes . Mine will always be Humane and Rescue Societies for Cats and Dogs .

[William]

I think I summed up my feelings on the subject back in the "Santa is finalizing his list" thread. And so far I have received a number of pm's from people who agree with what I expressed. I think that it's a decent cause and if I say I will contribute, to the best of my ability I will. But if for some reason something comes up in my life that I feel is more important, then I will pass. My intention would still have been genuine. Regardless of Santa/satans intentions, I think it was in poor taste to goad and try to publicly force people to give money to the cause. Because of the "community" nature of this forum and peoples desire to join in and be a part of it, that particular tool will work on some. But in the long run you will turn off more people who were on the fence or not able to send it in yet. Or worse, make people like me, who when someone tries to force them to do something will do the exact opposite and tell you what you can do with it. But, as I said, I think it's a decent cause and I will keep my word with Serotta James & Chris to do what I offered to do.

I don't have a problem if someone asks in this setting to donate or help out with a cycling related charity, cycling is the focus of this forum after all. But in the future, I would suggest that the strong-arm tactics be dropped.

Just my humble opinion.

William

[dave thompson]

In this case I viewed the fund raising for the Sierra Nevada team as an effort for this forum to support a Serotta equipped team. The connection to the Phinney Foundation was a natural extension, to me, for the monies to go to if we couldn't raise the required amount, or if we raised more than enough. Both directions were Serotta based, and I thought would bring the forumites even closer together because of the commonality we share.\

Perhaps the Santa/Satan arm-twisting was taken personally by some, but I don't think it should diminish the thrust that we had going initially towards our goal. I mean how cool would it be to consider a bicycle racing team as "mine" and "ours"?

[Len J]

Requesting support on the site, especially for two of Ben's pet projects, is, without a doubt OK.

Following up with posts reminding people publicly of their (missed) commitments is, IMO, in very poor taste. I strongly agree with climbs original response.

Len

[Climb01742]

from a personal perspective, i saw contributing to the SN team as a way to help racers. being a pro these days is hard. even harder in america. maybe its pollyannish, but i wanted to help someone follow their athletic dream. i also wanted to say thanks to ben.

that is why i sent my check. i think most "good" intentions are very personal. doing it as a group is both cool and complicated, as we saw. i guess my two cents is...keeping charity personal and individual might be the better way to go. making it communal makes it public, and making it public makes it complicated. i'm amazed sometimes by the simple human charity we show each other. we give each other help, advice, encouragement, laughter, ribbing, and tongue in cheek hard times. when our "charity" towards each other involves money, well, it can get funky. again, personally, on the forum i might vote for our continued sharing of non-monetary charity of spirit towards each other. and keep the monetary charity personal, private and between our souls and our means. just one opinion...

[Bill Bove]

I guess I'm to blame for all this as I made the original suggestion that we do something. I may not have been clear about what I thought we should do. I thought it would be cool to raise enough money to gain a sponsorship level with Sierra Nevada and then use that spot on the team car to put a Davis Phinney Foundation ad there with a paid for by the Serotta Forum tag. That way SN got a few more bucks to help them get through the season AND the Davis Phinney foundation got some additional exposure. I thought that it would look good for Ben if the people who actually paid for his/their bikes liked them so much that they were willing to go beyond the bike purchase and help sponsor a team with a cash contribution, after all we already are sponsoring the team when we buy a Serotta or a six pack. And Davis Phinney is a cool guy. I raced against him, O.K. I was in the same race as him but a lot farther back and I'd like to help him and his cause in some small way.

But Dave, you do raise some very good issues that should be thought out.

[vaxn8r]

I think the original intent was a good one. I bet everybody thought initially it was a good one.

Where it degenerated was the follow up. Taking names, listing names, hassleing members. I'm sure some thought what they were doing was a great idea. I did not take the comments well about the forum being free and we really ought to be paying for it and if you don't donate, well, how selfish can you be? Listing donors names was even worse.

I would suggest that if there be charity requests/ideas in the future, they simply be announcements and all donors and donations be kept private. My core belief on charity is if it comes from the heart it benefits the giver and the receiver. If it's compulsory, by any means, the good feelings are destroyed, donation or not.

[Lifelover]

Following up with posts reminding people publicly of their (missed) commitments is, IMO, in very poor taste.
Len

That is the one thing that struck me the wrong way.

[Ken Robb]

I sent my $$ in to say "thanks" in a small way to Ben and all the folks at Serotta who treat us and other bicyclers so well. I thought that the initiators of this idea were like old Andy Rooney charcaters : "Hey kids, let's put on a show for a good cause".

[dave thompson]

I sent my $$ in to say "thanks" in a small way to Ben and all the folks at Serotta who treat us and other bicyclers so well. I thought that the initiators of this idea were like old Andy Rooney charcaters : "Hey kids, let's put on a show for a good cause".
Uh Ken, that's Mickey Rooney. I thought you were old enought to remember the difference between Andy and Mickey. Maybe that's what you get for riding in the sun year 'round, your brain is baked. :D

But I agree with you on the scope and intent of the original idea. Too bad it's degenerated into this. Imagine what others who are not regulars on our forums are thinking.

[Ken Robb]

Dave is right of course--I am old and I won't tell you that I got a little sun-burned today on my ride and further baked my brain. That only annoys Mr. Litespeeder. For those who have seen these movies you may remeber that Mickey Rooney's character was Andy Hardy which is all the excuse I need for calling him Andy Rooney. Maybe?

[Tom Robison]

To All . . .

But anyway, should we do this again? Is it more trouble than it’s worth? I think we should talk about it . . .

Respectfully . . . BBDave

I think the original intent of fundraising for the Sierra Nevada team was a good one. What I didn't appreciate is/was the donation badgering that started back on 12/4 by a "pushy NY lawyer" only to be continued and beaten into the ground by folks hiding behind pseudonyms (Santa and its variation). That sort of nonsense makes some folks, who would have gladly given, dig in their heels and say no. It also takes the polite exchange of ideas, so characteristic of this forum, down to a low level. I think it also serves to turn away new Serotta owners and forum members. A gently worded reminder would have been sufficient.

Should we continue fundraising? Probably not.

For me, the last time I participated in fundraising on the Serotta forum was the last time I participated in fundraising on the Serotta forum.

Tom "I don't need a pseudonym" Robison

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . everyone’s input. A few reactions . . .

--Tom R . . . I agree that the reminding people of their commitment may not have worked out for the best, but I’m also keeping in mind that I am ABSOLUTELY sure that whoever was behind “Santa” and “Satan” was acting with the best of intentions. Perhaps the best way to proceed in the future would be to skip personal reminders? The “naughty” and “nice” lists seem to be what rubbed most people the wrong way . . . :( I wouldn’t call it “pushy,” though, just a well-meaning idea that didn’t work out . . .

--Bill . . . I don’t think you are “to blame” at all. It was a great idea and still is. I just wanted to spur some discussion of whether it’s a good idea to keep doing it, because it’s one of those things that could get easily out of hand. I do the MS bike tour every year and that’s kind of my charity of choice. But there are what, now, over a thousand members on the forum? If even only 50 of them post threads asking for donations for their favorite charities, then things could get cluttered real quick . . . and I guess I missed the part about the emblem being an ad for the Phinney Foundation. I thought it was going to just be the dancing banana, which really would not have told anyone much of anything about the foundation. So I remain kind of in the dark here--does the Phinney Foundation have a logo? If they do and the intention is to use that, then what is William designing for us?

--Ken . . . It’s easy to remember the Rooney difference--Andy is the one with only one wife! ;)

Still respectfully . . . BBDave

[William]

I thought it was going to just be the dancing banana, which really would not have told anyone much of anything about the foundation. So I remain kind of in the dark here--does the Phinney Foundation have a logo? If they do and the intention is to use that, then what is William designing for us?

Yes the foundation has a logo and I've been debating on whether I should include it in the design. I'm open to suggestions on this aspect of it if anyone wishes to make a comment about it.

William

[Climb01742]

i'd vote for a simple, silly, fun, make-you-smile dancing banana.

[dave thompson]

i'd vote for a simple, silly, fun, make-you-smile dancing banana.
I thought that is what the logo was to be, "our" banana with the words 'Serotta Forum'. The Phinney Foundation wasn't ever mentioned in context of the sponsorship, only as a recipient of any funds not used for the Sierra Nevada team.

[Kevin]

I thought that is what the logo was to be, "our" banana with the words 'Serotta Forum'. The Phinney Foundation wasn't ever mentioned in context of the sponsorship, only as a recipient of any funds not used for the Sierra Nevada team.

I also thought it was going to be the Banana and the words Serotta Forum.

Kevin

[zap]

Thats one of the problems with this fundraiser. The Announcement is not clear at all what the art work is for Sierra Nevada. I asked and was referred to the original thread. I had scanned the original thread prior to my asking the question as I had not followed it earlier.

If you want my money and I ask a question(s), I expect an answer. Don't refer me to an unclear thread and vague announcement.

I also wondered what is unique about the dancing banana. Isn't it freeware?

Additionally, I did not know that one had to publicly state that one was going to donate funds to this cause in order to do so. I guess I missed that when I quickly reviewed the original thread.

To wit, successful fund raising requires..

1. Clearly stated objectives
2. Promote the fund raiser to all
3. Do not openly list names or forum ID's
4. Be delicate when seeking monies.

[kyledmil]

I don't spend a lot of time on forums because of all the crap one has to deal with. I have enjoyed this forum because of so many knowledgeable people and the intelligent, humorous posts that make looking up info even more fun. Unfortunately, even this forum can degenerate into posting that refuses to even try to understand what other members are really saying or doing. We too often want to see much more negativity in someone's joking or chiding than what is intended. A member said let's raise money for a good cause, others said great. If we were a pack of riders meeting once a week and someone was teased about money they had promised to give, I don't think it would cause such a stink, and I don't think people who view things so differently would be riding together every week. This forum has a lot of individuals that don't always, if ever (lol), agree, and that can be a big plus when one is looking for bike info, but I think we need to be careful not to take so much offense at everything that is said that we don't like. Promised to send money? Well, you did promise--of course someone might tease you about it. Wouldn't people in the real world tease you? Send $5 bucks in--I don't think many here couldn't cough that up--and be more careful about promises next time. To question whether it is appropriate for a group of people on a chat forum to be able to raise money amongst themselves because others who promised to donate and have changed their mind for whatever reason now feel uncomfortable doesn't seem fair minded. No one is going to hate you for changing it and you won't go on an ignore list. This is much like those who get offended on a regular basis by the jerk, and I can tell you, as a lurker, that I rarely, if ever, see the mean-spiritedness and deviousness that he is always accused of---it's just not there! He shoots from the hip and that's all there is to it. From now on when one gets offended why not assume that one is misinterpreting what is said first and not get mad until we know for sure. I thought the lighthearted teases of Santa and Satan were rather appropriate for a bicycle forum--we tend to be a rather irreverent bunch at times!!

[M_A_Martin]

William, Zap,

Perhaps I can help with the artwork.

I think perhaps "our banana" referenced might be the banana that our own ShinoMaster penned for the Forum's Serotta Open House Jersey. The other option would be the monkey on the back of the jersey.

I have high res images for both along with captured "dancing bananas" from the web site...

[Ahneida Ride]

William,

I was under the impression that our Icon would be the "Banana"
with the Logo "Serotta Forum". :banana:

[Russ]

BBDave has raised a good topic to talk about...

One of the reasons I sent the money yestreday was because of the way this whole thing started: It was NOT Ben or Serotta Bicycles that asked for it, but one of our fellow members (Bill Bove) that thought of an idea to say to Ben, "hey, thanks for the forum and for making great bikes...."

When Bill posted this idea, the SN Team came up, and later the DPF... I've said before that I get a bit suspicious when sending money to "charities" for a number of reasons. But, helping the SN Team was more of a "tangible" way to see that my money was spend for what it was intended.

I really I don't have a problem with anyone asking for this type of thing. I would be willing to help now and in the future, but I also have my reservations and I hope that those be respected. Not just by the forum members but by Serotta Bicyles as well.

Cheers!

[William]

Hi Ginger.

I just pm'ed you.

Thanks! :cool:

William

[bcm119]

I don't think fundraising on the forum is necessarily inappropriate, but I will say that the process of listing members who had contributed turned me off to the idea a bit. The situation reminded me a little of the Dr. Suess book about the Star-Bellied Sneetches, and I sensed some mild hazing by the sneetches with stars on their bellies.