richie's nagasawa [Archive] - The Paceline Forum

CarbonTi

12-17-2004, 04:56 PM

Incredible work. Beautifully thinned lugs leading to perfect shorelines. All lug-to-metal transitions showing perfect 90 degree steps in the metalwork. Perfect flowing compound curves in the lug points.

Great choice of silver to highlight the crisp lines around the lugwork.

Oh man, the lug-nuts must be howling on this one. Nagasawa-san is for real, my goodnes that is incredible work.

Excuse me, I'm going to take a cold shower now.

e-RICHIE

12-17-2004, 04:57 PM

here more

e-RICHIE

12-17-2004, 04:59 PM

here here more more

oracle

12-17-2004, 05:22 PM

velly velly pletty, e-LICHIE!

Climb01742

12-17-2004, 06:14 PM

hey, you learned how, richie! but how about a full frame shot? please... ;)

Len J

12-17-2004, 06:29 PM

That is amazing..........more....more.....more.........

Love the Bottom Bracket.

Len

Serotta PETE

12-17-2004, 06:38 PM

Very nice frame...........will you have it built up by Monday? Spokes is on his way up!!

e-RICHIE

12-17-2004, 06:40 PM

oooooooops.
i just found a scratch.

only fckaking wit ya...

SPOKE

12-17-2004, 07:30 PM

Richard,
too cool! the lug work is really nice! I hope you really enjoy it. i can see why you have a deep appreciation for his work.

e-RICHIE

12-17-2004, 10:31 PM

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bobbesrs/album?.dir=5ec9&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bobbesrs/my_photos

or

http://tinyurl.com/4db5t

"more pics to follow"

yahoo pic sites are traffic dependent.
if "busy", save link and return later.
e-RICHIE

weisan

12-18-2004, 07:30 AM

Richie-san, since you took a few shots of the exquisite box, I will volunteer to do a bit of translation here. I can't read Japanese, but some of these characters are chinese.

On the frontal view, the top says "Competition Bikes...", the bottom half, as most of you would figure out, is Nagasawa-san's address and phone #: Memorize this 0729 (77) 7047. ;)

Ths side view simply says: "Handle with Care. DO NOT TILT."

So, there you have it. It's a normal box just like any other box that a bike comes with. Nope, Nagasawa-san absolutely did not include any special instructions for assembly or rituals you need to perform prior to unpacking the box. So, you are okay there. Now, kindly fold it into half and head it up for the recycle bin!!! :D

I CANNOT believe you actually land that puppy on the ground with its very nice BB against the asphalt. Hurry up, check for scratch marks! :crap: I probably care more about that than you do.

I wish I could join in the chorus and say how cool this bike is but honestly I can't tell other this is an otherwise perfectly well-made bike, it's probably plain ignorance on my part. So, Richie-san, I have one favor to ask. When you are ready, can you give us a run-down on the things you notice that are unique about Nagasawa as seen through your lens? It would be quite an education for some of us who are just starting out to appreciate the art of traditional framebuilding. Thank you!

weisan

Serotta PETE

12-18-2004, 07:37 AM

oooooooops. Tape :bike:
i just found a scratch.

only fckaking wit ya...

Just some left over adhesive from the tape :)

dbrk

12-18-2004, 07:49 AM

Wow.
I wait. 'Been more than a year now...worth the wait, as the pictures show.

not so many things in this world are made this well, imho,

dbrk

Redturbo

12-18-2004, 07:56 AM

The simple little things like the attention to details in the packing and shipping, speaks volumes.

Enjoy it e
turbo

Andreu

12-18-2004, 08:12 AM

One of the few bikes I have seen here which I keep returning to look at. I actually questioned the colour.... for about 2 seconds....then decided it was OK....about 10 seconds later....I thought it was cool....30 seconds....beautiful.
Love the attention to detail. It just looks better every time I look at it.
- Why the Italian flag on the headtube decal?
Oh well back to dreaming.
Thanks for all the photos.
A :beer: :beer:

zap

12-18-2004, 08:42 AM

That looks really nice.

dbrk

12-18-2004, 08:56 AM

- Why the Italian flag on the headtube decal?
Oh well back to dreaming.
Thanks for all the photos.
A

I am speculating but if you go back and look at older Nagasawa examples you find only bikes in the Italian race bike and track traditions, nothing like French randonneuse as you might see with Toei (such as this: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/cycle/days/zitensya/syoyuimpre/toeisuporu.htm). The Japanese are keen on tradition, as we all know, and get them onto something with specificity, detail, refinement, and long-standing methods and outcomes and, well, you have French bikes better than the French and Italian bikes better than the Italians...cars better than the Americans, etc.
We all know this story. Methinks that it is the strong Keiran racing tradition plus a love of all things Campaganolo. Note: you don't find Sachs bikes with anything but Campagnolo groups when they come out of the House of Chester from richie-samo.

dbrk
remember the California flag on the Bstones? A sort of tongue in cheek to this tradition of flagging bicycles...

p.s. Link here to the famous Singer example found on at least half a dozen Japanese websites: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/cycle/days/zitensya/syoyuimpre/singer.htm

Climb01742

12-18-2004, 09:02 AM

[QUOTE=dbrk]Note: you don't find Sachs bikes with anything but Campagnolo groups when they come out of the House of Chester from richie-samo./QUOTE]

at some distant day, there will be at least one sachs sporting not an ounce of campy...e-richie, i'll thumb wrestle you over camy v. shimano!!! :p ;) :D

coylifut

12-18-2004, 09:49 AM

to use Shimano that is.

e-RICHIE

12-18-2004, 09:57 AM

that's konrad - twice u.s. team member
for jr world championships...

DfCas

12-19-2004, 07:11 PM

The writing that looks like 7's and L's and t's is Katakana (one of the Japanese alphabets..I'd have no hope for the Chinese characters the Japanese use,but the simple Japanese at the top says fureemu (frame).

Underneath Nagasawa samas name says nagasawa reeshingu (racing)
saikuru (cycle/s).

Man,my Japanese is rustier than my trainer bike.

Dan Cas

David Kirk

12-19-2004, 07:14 PM

It's a stunning bike. I hope the weather holds and you get a chance to put a few miles on it.

Enjoy,

Dave

e-RICHIE

12-19-2004, 07:43 PM

kirk-issimo
i have no plans to ride it. no immediate plans, that is.
it's a beautiful frame, its maker is rich with history. to have
this here after wanting one since the 70s (see story) is
enough - for now, at least. who can say if that will change?
e-RICHIE

David Kirk

12-19-2004, 07:59 PM

I understand..........you want to appreciate it's beauty and simple elegance. I feel though that a bike can't really be appreciated without riding it. The bike will be even more beautiful when viewed in full context........on the road and in motion. It was meant to be ridden.

I'll bet Mr. Nagasawa would agree.

Dave

e-RICHIE

12-19-2004, 08:05 PM

"...you want to appreciate it's beauty and simple elegance. "

it's way more than that - almost to the point that these
things don't matter at all. this is the sum total of wanting
something that was out of my reach for almost 25 years;
these frames drew me in in the late 70s. i've seen fewer
than 5 in person all these years. as i noted, this man has
"muse" qualities to me; i'm not sure if this is very well
articulated.

regardless, it seems like the more i try to explain this, the
more complicated it gets. it was a gift that i was able to
receive the frame. it's more a cerebral exercise than one
that involves getting "stuff".

e-RICHIE

David Kirk

12-19-2004, 08:16 PM

That makes sense and I see your point. I hope you enjoy the bike for many, many years in whatever way pleases you.

All the best,

Dave

GoJavs

12-19-2004, 09:53 PM

e-Ritchie,

If it makes you feel better, you are many a lugged-steel lover's muse! God, if I could convince my wife to let me get on that list... :crap:

bags27

12-19-2004, 10:01 PM

Maestros Sachs and Kirk,
There are very few of us who do not (and who is so base who would not?) lust after one of your own creations. Your candid and elegantly simple generosity towards the work of another master is...well...almost embarrassingly inspiring. It doesn't happen often enough in this world: this was a precious exchange.

GoJavs

12-19-2004, 10:08 PM

Ditto for me. Mr. Kirk, your work is something to behold!! :p

Peter

12-19-2004, 10:38 PM

Ironically, much of the awe and enthusiasm e-RICHIE expresses for his Nagasawa is the same as what many of e-RICHIE's fans express for HIS frames.

I DO wonder if he feels the same about his customers who I often suspect spend more time gawking at the aesthetic of their Richard Sachs than they do riding it; does he wish his customers would get more enjoyment out of their Sachs by using it more then just staring at it? At least that's the impression I get from some of what he's written.

I agree with what David Kirk is saying about the frame "being viewed in full context...". From what I gather about Nagasawa, purchasing a frame is similar to purchasing a Sachs in that most of the dimensions are for the builder to decide and not the customer. It is that eagerness to ride the bike and see how Nagasawa/Sachs has interpreted the measurements to produce a frame which rides in a particular fashion which makes it exciting for the customer as well as an artistic expression (as far as the ride qualities go, not the aesthetic aspect).

Since Richard is no doubt quite experienced in building frames to fit HIMSELF, it would be interesting to see how he reacts to riding a frame built by someone else as THEY (Nagasawa) interpret his measurements, presuming the Nagasawa was built in the "made to measure" fashion. How will the Nagasawa experience influence his future framebuilding?

For what it's worth, the photos of the Nagasawa certainly show gentle beauty in the simplicity of the lugs and the clean work. But compared to American frames, it's definitely lacking in quality paint detail work such as the yellow accents, and the downtube decal lacks the legibility, as well as the artistic eye-catching quality of American designs. My statement is not meant to denigrate the Nagasawa as much as it is to compliment American builders' eye toward attention to detail, and that includes Messrs. Sachs, Kirk, Kellogg, Weigle, and perhaps some others.

Some builders, including some American ones, miss the boat when it comes to decals. I think I read somewhere a framebuilder mentioned one of the best pieces of advice he received was to first design a proper decal scheme, and I can't agree more with how far it goes to making an attractive, complete package.

Andreu

12-20-2004, 02:18 AM

I think some things go beyond explanation. Like the sum of the parts is worth more than the individual components.....or something like that.
A :beer:

Climb01742

12-20-2004, 05:35 AM

i may be shallow but i very much agree with peter's comments on decals. a naked frame, when well made, is a simple elegant piece of sculpture. what a shame, then, when a set of ugly decals is put on it. it's like a chef who creates a delicious dish but then sloppily plates it. the final visual presentation of a frame or a meal or a piece of architecture or a frame on a painting or whatever has, for me, a huge impact on the finished total of creativity. i very much appreciate that a) serotta has a logo i like and b) that they allow us to choose how many we put on our frames. the fact that my CSi only has logos on its seattube contributes greatly to its understated look, IMO.

e-RICHIE

12-20-2004, 07:16 AM

"Ironically, much of the awe and enthusiasm e-RICHIE expresses for his Nagasawa is the same as what many of e-RICHIE's fans express for HIS frames."

many thanks!

"I DO wonder if he feels the same about his customers who I often suspect spend more time gawking at the aesthetic of their Richard Sachs than they do riding it..."

wrong! bad assumption.

"does he wish his customers would get more enjoyment out of their Sachs by using it more then just staring at it? At least that's the impression I get from some of what he's written."

not relevent - i don't build frames for builders!

"From what I gather about Nagasawa, purchasing a frame is similar to purchasing a Sachs in that most of the dimensions are for the builder to decide and not the customer."

the client should choose the dimensions?!

"How will the Nagasawa experience influence his future framebuilding?"

it will keep me on my toes.

"But compared to American frames, it's definitely lacking in quality paint detail work such as the yellow accents..."

huh?

"... the downtube decal lacks the legibility, as well as the artistic eye-catching quality of American designs."

it could be the japanese design influence some japanese are known to adhere to.

"I think I read somewhere a framebuilder mentioned one of the best pieces of advice he received was to first design a proper decal scheme..."

i assume you mean "after" he has mastered building.

Big Dan

12-20-2004, 07:29 AM

I really like the frame and really like the paint job. Who wants a Nagasawa that looks like a Serotta or any other brand? :confused: That's just the paint, let's not get into geometry, angles and other topics... :crap:

I like Serotta's that look like Serotta's
Sachs that look like Sachs and Nagasawa's that look like Nagasawa's. :bike:

Too Tall

12-20-2004, 07:31 AM

YOU were gyped mannn. He left cut out tons of metal and tried to hide it with paint! Even the BB is full of holes :rolleyes: hehe.

It warms my heart that you can do this for yourself. Check out E.Richissisan all grown up :)

Do you a favor. When it feels right and nobody is around take it for a good hard ride and don't tell a soul.

Andreu

12-20-2004, 07:50 AM

"Since Richard is no doubt quite experienced in building frames to fit HIMSELF, it would be interesting to see how he reacts to riding a frame built by someone else as THEY (Nagasawa) interpret his measurements, presuming the Nagasawa was built in the "made to measure" fashion. How will the Nagasawa experience influence his future framebuilding?"

is THIS a joke?

weisan

12-20-2004, 08:01 AM

Thanks Richie-sawa, your post prompted me to learn more about traditional framebuilding. And so, I did a couple of google search and landed in places like Rivendell's website.
It opens my world to a new set of terminology.

When they talked about lug brazing....
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/bikes_riv3.html
-- "making sure the silver �crosses the cope.�...."faith-based brazing"...."leading with the flame" etc.

Fork construction....fork bending, the crowns, location of rear brake bridge, dimpled-looking forged dropouts etc

I think at the end of the day, the author sums it up pretty well: "There�s still no magic involved in the making of a super fine lugged steel frame, but it certainly takes a particular combination of talent, care, aptitude, and experience."

Observing time-honored traditions, appreciating the beauty of simplicity, lost in time constantly pursuing one's art and pushing the boundary....I think these are all good.

Richie-sawa, thanks again for sharing this special occasion with us, sorry to make you explain yourself on certain things, you don't have to but you did because of generosity of the heart, enjoy! :p

weisan

jerk

12-20-2004, 08:42 AM

e-richie,
you done right....hey stupid question for ya' 126 or 130?
jerk

e-RICHIE

12-20-2004, 08:48 AM

126.0054328mm

i had this frame spec-ed for early 80s sr parts.

dgauthier

12-20-2004, 02:05 PM

"... the downtube decal lacks the legibility, as well as the artistic eye-catching quality of American designs."

it could be the japanese design influence some japanese are known to adhere to.

Absolutely.

IMHO one of the best aspects of this frame are the decals. They really emphasize the frame's country of origin, and (for myself, at least) seem to communicate a rich racing heritage.

The design aesthetic is completely different from American frames, however, and this must be what confuses some people. For those persons, I suggest taking a good long look at the four photos of the shipping carton, and stare at the Nagasawa logo, along with all the Japanese characters. Now look at the frame again, and the beauty of the decal designs will be more obvious.

thesource

12-21-2004, 05:22 PM

The Italian flag on the frame is Mr.Nagasawa's way of showing his appreciation to Mr. De Rosa, who he worked for as a young man.

e-RICHIE

12-21-2004, 05:37 PM

...and for pogliaghi before that.

slowgoing

12-21-2004, 05:41 PM

Since he apparently still rides, I bet the two of you could have negotiated a straight frame swap just for the experience of it all. He might admire your work as much as you admire his.

e-RICHIE

12-21-2004, 05:45 PM

"Since he apparently still rides..."

how do you know that?

slowgoing

12-21-2004, 05:54 PM

from the brochures on the links. Of course, maybe they're outdated and he doesn't and I'm wrong. On the other hand, maybe he'd just like one to hang on the wall and admire all day long, crazy as that sounds.

e-RICHIE

12-21-2004, 05:59 PM

those are 80s brochures.
the pics are of nakano.

jerk

12-21-2004, 07:29 PM

e-richie-you got all the parts you need? jerk's holdin if you need some super record. NOS kid NOS.
jerk

e-RICHIE

12-21-2004, 07:43 PM

nosnos?

jerk

12-21-2004, 07:51 PM

yup. new old stock...in boxes and stuff......its amazing what you can trade your secret identity for. (that's a joke folks....the jerk bought this stuff with cold hard cash.) lemme know. (the jerk was saving the stuff for mrs. jerk's christmas present but she's getting a photo shoot at sears with santa and couple pairs of aluminum pants instead. plus the luigino is 130 spacing and the mrs. hates downtube shifters no matter how pretty they are.)
jerk

saab2000

12-21-2004, 07:59 PM

The coolest downtube shifters ever are the C-Record retrofrictions. I have 4 sets. I gave away a set once to someone on the condition that if he ever stopped using them on his Stowe that he must give them back. He still uses them.

The Simplex/Mavic/Spidel retrofrictions might be cooler. But they are really not.........

e-RICHIE

12-21-2004, 08:16 PM

jerk
i'm all ears.
talk to e-RICHIE via my secret email
addy that i gave you.
e-RICHIE

dbrk

12-21-2004, 08:58 PM

The coolest downtube shifters ever are the C-Record retrofrictions. I have 4 sets
The Simplex/Mavic/Spidel retrofrictions might be cooler. But they are really not.........

No. The coolest ever really are the Simplex/Mavic/Spidels BUT the C-Rec retrofrictions really really work better, none has ever worked better, not even close. But cool is in the combination of the aesthetic and that tear-drop just easily carries the day {add to this that they are French, which serves to annoy by definition those who...well, I'll not finish that sentence for fear of gratuitous calmuny...) Function on the C-Rec retros is indeed far superior and I LOVE mine. I hoard a meager three sets to SAAB's four. There aren't many things in life worth hoarding, still fewer of things still actually made, like a Sachs, Nagasawa, Rivendell, pair of Aurora Shoes (aurorashoes.com), Dugast sew-ups, or a Brooks saddle...geez, actually there are more than a few things, come to think of it... SAAB, you once again impress me as a man of real taste and it is a good thing that the world is big enough to have TWO BEST EVER downtube shifters. The ordinary Super Records were, like the Nuovo Records, never that great seeing as how the slipped---though I think Record was Record and "Super" did not apply to the shifters? Could be way wrong about that...I'm a user, not a timeline historian of bike parts.

Richie, that Nag just rocks. I've looked at the pictures about a million times.

dbrk

e-RICHIE

12-21-2004, 09:30 PM

someone just asked me privately about the tubing
used and - not to my own surprise - the subject of
tubing and brand NEVER came up during all the
correspondance it took to order this frame. yikes!
i have no idea what it is made of.

ah - bliss.

jerk

12-22-2004, 06:03 AM

dbrk

12-22-2004, 06:11 AM

While I am busy getting in trouble on another thread I might as well get in trouble on this one: it's 'cause the tubes don't matter.

Of course a builder like Nagasawa uses fine quality bicycle tubing, as does, say a builder like RichardSachs. But about a gazillion times more important than the tubing is the design ---then add in fit and wheels and you have more than 95% of the ride quality. Even the beautiful finish and aesthetics don't add to the ride, as we all know, but they don't hurt, anymore than, say, the incredibly handsome, wonderful looking tubes we see on some Famous Builder's bikes don't hurt and add something great to behold. Tubes are so far down the list of things that matter at this level of bicycle that, well, I'd'a not asked either. In fact, I've not asked, though I may be dead before my Nagasawa shows up...'least that's certain once the flak for this post starts to fly...:-) [N.B., that is a "retro" friction smile, not one of those indexed over on the right side there...]

dbrk

Climb01742

12-22-2004, 06:27 AM

douglas, perhaps the issue isn't "does tubing matter or not?" but rather, "of all the things that impact how a frame performs, where does tubing rank?" tubing matters, i think, but much less than geo...or the right wheels...or... :rolleyes:

shinomaster

12-22-2004, 11:54 AM

That is one obviously stellar frame. How are the lugs made so thin? How much does the frame weigh ? ( it looks very light)

e-RICHIE

12-22-2004, 12:00 PM

1) laborious hand-filing* by a skilled metalsmith.
2) i have not weighed it.

e-RICHIE

*the lugs are filed, not the hand.

flydhest

12-22-2004, 12:35 PM

paengn

12-22-2004, 11:06 PM

Awesome!!! Love the color!! Congrats and Happy Holidays, E-Richie

dnovo

12-24-2004, 06:27 AM

Sorry to chime in so late, been busy at the office. I am privileged to own some of Nagasawa's superb bikes, and have shared them with you all on this forum before. Congrats to Richard on his new ride. I too haven't any idea what tubing he uses, and didn't ask when I ordered my first one or bought the other two 'off the rack.' I leave this to the master builder, just as I deferred to Dave Kirk when he built my frames and as I am doing now with Richard, who tells me I am 'getting close' on my Sachs frame.

Hey, if I had the expertise to tell someone in their league what to use, I'd be torching frames rather than feasing torts.

Merry Xmas all. Dave N. (who was #(*&^% insane and out riding for the last hour in -4 here in frigid SE Wisconsin. Assos' finest helped, but I still feel like a frozen dinner after a hot shower and three cups of tea.)

Climb01742

12-24-2004, 06:32 AM

dave n, happy holidays and in 05 hope your workload lessens, so you can do something much more...hang out here! :beer:

saab2000

12-27-2004, 10:07 AM

I must take this opportunity to thank Mr. Dee Bee Are Kay for his most kind and gracious comments regarding my sense of taste. If only he knew how tasteless I can really be at times..... :D

Oddly, I felt as if I were nearly alone in the world in getting excited about sort of obscure things like downtube friction shift levers and toe clips and proper straps, etc. I am not a retro grouch, if you will, but I enjoy the history of cycling as much as its present and future. I own several "old" bikes from the '80s with "older" technology and enjoy riding them very much. I am perhaps more racing oriented than Douglas in my tastes, but I appreciate fine machinery regardless of its mission. And he seems to own much fine, unique machinery.

At any rate, since I discovered the Serotta Forum, I realise that there are others with this affectation for uncommon cycling components and manufacturers. I feel comfortable browsing and participating here. We all owe Ben Serotta and his company a large debt of gratitude for having this public forum on which we can discuss cycling and I will once again say that it is because of Serotta's confidence in the product that he allows other possible competitors to openly discuss cycling here. Bravo, Ben! Three cheers! :beer: :beer: :beer:

The reason that this response to DBRK's post is so late is that I have been flying almost non-stop since then. I thought that I had it tough flying over Christmas and with all the delays and problems and all. Then I saw the news and saw that many of my airline's competitors had it much, much worse than I did.

I have 3 days off now and will be monitoring this forum whenever I am not riding!