PDA

View Full Version : Butted Spokes and their effect on ride


MIN
03-20-2009, 03:48 PM
Question for the wheel dorks:

All else being equal, does an ultra butted spoke (Sapim Laser, DT Rev) yield a different ride or lateral stiffness than a mild butted spoke (DT Comp.)?

I'm getting a custom wheelset built this weekend and I'd like to understand my options better.

caleb
03-20-2009, 03:54 PM
Question for the wheel dorks:

All else being equal, does an ultra butted spoke (Sapim Laser, DT Rev) yield a different ride or lateral stiffness than a mild butted spoke (DT Comp.)?

I'm getting a custom wheelset built this weekend and I'd like to understand my options better.

My intuition is to say "yes". DT Revs are "springy", and, if I understand correctly, they have a higher resistance to breaking while having a greater ability to stretch.

I might be totally wrong as this is just the folklore I've inherited, so someone who knows what they're talking about please chime in...

For what it's worth, my favorite training wheelset is 3x 32h Record/OP/Dt Rev. I'm 145-155 pounds, and they seem solid, but noticeably less harsh than thick spokes laced to a deep metal rim (ie CXP 33).

MIN
03-20-2009, 04:02 PM
I've decided on 28-hole Open Pros, brass nips and Chris King hubs. Just wondering what spokes to get.

caleb
03-20-2009, 04:05 PM
How heavy are you, and how many miles will you ride them per year?

jlwdm
03-20-2009, 04:06 PM
I would hope the person building the wheels could answer this question for you. The rims, hubs and spokes should have some synergy. An experienced wheelbuilder should know what works best together.

Jeff

victoryfactory
03-20-2009, 04:06 PM
Spokes get tension from pulling, not pushing. So
if the butted and non butted spokes are
strong enough to be tensioned the same,
the ride would be the same, no?

VF

caleb
03-20-2009, 04:10 PM
Spokes get tension from pulling, not pushing. So
if the butted and non butted spokes are
strong enough to be tensioned the same,
the ride would be the same, no?

VF

I don't think so. Imagine it in terms of larger wires: a guitar string and a steel cable. Tension them both to the same level. Pluck them. Do they sound the same? Of course not; their difference in size makes them transmit force and vibration differently.

It seems that the same sort of difference (although to a lesser degree) would apply to spokes as well.

With all sorts of metal, it's not just about the tension.

MIN
03-20-2009, 04:21 PM
I am 160-170 lbs weight, riding about 7000-mi per year over gnarly terrain.

My wheelbuilder seems ambivalent to the spoke choice, conceding that they are all great, hence my question here.

sam.g
03-20-2009, 04:24 PM
I've two sets of Open Pro's. First set built by Colorado Cyclist with Ultegra hubs and straight 14 guage spokes, 32 3 cross. Second set hand built by my lbs with D/A hubs 14/15 DB spokes, 32 3 cross. Absolutely no descenable difference IMHO.

Sam in Cincy

MRB
03-20-2009, 04:36 PM
My experience has been that double butted spokes don't necessarily ride nicer, but the wheels seem to be stronger in that they stay true.

Be carefull not to go silly light on the spokes, because you won't have a stout enough wheel for crits, off-road hill climbs, and the like. (high torque situations)

My favorite spokes are Wheelsmith db 14/15 ss.

Have you thought about building the wheels yourself? It is a real kick to do it, especially when many many years later they are still going strong. Not really that hard, buy the spokes and parts at an LBS. If you think it is too hard, consider copying a wheel that you already have that is similar.

HTH

dekindy
03-20-2009, 08:44 PM
I have seen the analogy that spokes are butted for exactly the same reason that tubes are butted. Put the material where the strength is needed most. Is this true?

RPS
03-20-2009, 08:50 PM
All else being equal, does an ultra butted spoke (Sapim Laser, DT Rev) yield a different ride or lateral stiffness than a mild butted spoke (DT Comp.)?Everything else being the same (same rim, hubs, number of spokes, lacing, etc.), using spokes that are less stiff will make the wheel less stiff both laterally and vertically. These spokes have less metal and will stretch under load a greater amount (whether difference in ride is appreciable is debatable). They do save a little weight.

I use 14/17 front and non-drive rear, with straight 14 on rear drive side. At 150 pounds its more than I need with 28 front and 32 rear.

RPS
03-20-2009, 08:54 PM
I have seen the analogy that spokes are butted for exactly the same reason that tubes are butted. Put the material where the strength is needed most. Is this true?Strength is a factor, but they both also affect relative weight and relative stiffness.

regularguy412
03-21-2009, 12:25 AM
I purposely used DT Revolutions 3x 32h on the IRO high flange hub fixie wheels I built with the intent to soften the stiffness of the ride of the DT Swiss RR 1.2 rims. This is the only set of 1.2s I've ridden. I knew I'd be in the saddle a lot on the fix and wanted a bit of cushion. My OPs with 14/15s and 3x seem to be only bit stiffer and I'd lay that off to the spokes, since the OPs have a semi-aero profile.

Mike in AR :beer:

gman
03-21-2009, 12:26 AM
I am 160-170 lbs weight, riding about 7000-mi per year over gnarly terrain.

My wheelbuilder seems ambivalent to the spoke choice, conceding that they are all great, hence my question here.

I would find a different wheel builder.

Just my 2 cents...

cycling55
03-21-2009, 07:32 AM
I have built a wheelset with mavic gl330 28f/36r with rev. spokes and personally like them a lot.
IMO your front 28 spoke wheel with rev. will not be a problem but the rear 28 spoke wheel with rev. may not have the stiffness in the rear you may want when under acceleration. I would use the rev. front and back and if you are not happy with the rear just rebuild the rear with different spokes.

Gothard
03-21-2009, 04:21 PM
My 2-cross front King/Open Pro with Revolution spokes is more confortable than the exact same wheel built with Evolution spokes. I weigh 200. Same tire/tube/bicycle.

ergott
03-22-2009, 06:51 AM
Based on the rims/spoke count you are using (and you weight), use the Revolutions in the front and Competitions in the rear.

cmg
03-22-2009, 11:32 PM
Revolutions or DT Swiss XL14 or sapims 2x in the front, Revolutions or XL14 on the non-drive side 3x, DB14 on the drive side 3x, if you want a really strong rear then use DB14 on both sides. There is a noticeable difference. The DB14 are lighter and just as strong as competitions.

Samster
03-23-2009, 11:59 AM
i've never been fine-tuned enough to be able to tell. only thing i know is that i like box section better than "v", and tubs feel nicer than strap-ons.

MIN
03-23-2009, 01:38 PM
I decided on DT Competitions as opposed to Revolutions. (3x)

I forget to mention that this build was for a 700c disc-braked bike which would subject the hub to torsional forces. Seemed the sensible way to go for a high-mileage beater wheelset.

Thanks for the opinions fellas.