How many geometry changes

[Mikej]

For those of you who have purchased custom frames over the internet or telephone (no lbs liason), about how many blueprint / drawing changes does it take to get everything where you want?

[cmg]

For those of you who have purchased custom frames over the internet or telephone (no lbs liason), about how many blueprint / drawing changes does it take to get everything where you want?


took about 4 drawing changes. sent him a geometry drawing of what i was thinking. the tweaking began.

[LegendRider]

I got a Parlee through a LBS, but they did nothing aside from place the order and take my money (by the way, that's not meant as a criticism - just statement of fact). I dealt directly with Parlee and it took three revisions for us to agree on geometry. They sent me a PDF of each revision to review. They were a pleasure to work with.

[Peter P.]

One or two e-mails/phone calls. I have a good understanding of geometry and frames though only from a bike geek perspective, but I already know what fits me and/or what I want.

With my most recent purchase, I sent the measurements of myself and my current bike, the builder sent me a spec sheet with geometry changes that weren't unusual and I wanted to try something different so I approved his design choices with the only spec I was interested in changing being the seat tube length.

The frame is a mountain bike and the builder clearly wanted to make the frame as small as possible to utilize maximum seatpost extension, which would have been about 2" smaller than my current bike. My concern was, with a pump mounted under the top tube I might knock it off the bike when trying to extract a bottle from the seattube mounted cage. We split the difference and settled on a frame 1" smaller than my current frame.

I HIGHLY recommend you DO pay attention to things such as braze-ons; how many, what kind, and where they are located. Also things like-do you need seat/chainstay bridges and the fork crown drilled for fender mounts? Did you specify eyelets anywhere? If it's a steel fork, does the fork come with lawyer tabs on the dropouts by default? Don't ask me about my experience with this stuff; I may start to cry...

I won't tell you the entire story of my current custom frame purchase until AFTER it arrives but I WILL tell you this: I received the frame just over two weeks ago, was entirely dissatisfied with it, shipped it back to the builder to correct the mistakes/blunders, Fedex destroyed the box by the time it was returned to the builder; the builder filed a damage claim but instead Fedex RETURNED THE FRAME TO ME, and now I'm in the process of RETURNING THE FRAME BACK TO THE BUILDER so he can properly file the damage claim.

I promise to post the whole sordid tale AFTER the frame finally arrives.

[Charles M]

Well I tried a couple of times to out think Kelly Bedford and Paraic...

Total drawings after a fit in the ranch house? 1

Stupid foolish attempts at tweaks by me? 3


Really the contact points didn't change at all, but depending on the builders understanding of their material AND what they can change in ride quality through tube set manipulation it might actually take a few, but the better the builder AND CUSTOMER the fewer the drawings... You have to know what you want and not waffle too... every new waffle is a new plate.

[Peter B]

I sent Dazza my position and intended purpose and he built me a bike. He nailed it. Find someone you trust and then trust them.

[fixednwinter]

With Hampsten Cycles, it took about six or seven drawings for my first frame with Steve a couple of years ago. All done over e-mail, with a call here or there.

With the upcoming frame from them, it took about three drawings.

Trust and familiarity between Hampsten Cycles and myself accounts for the quicker turn-around the second time.

[Len J]

I know my measurements cold....I know what bike geometry has worked for me...I know what I don't like aesteticially.....I know what handling characteristics I like/want.......I send all to the builder I trust.......clarify with a phone call/couple of e-mails...sit back & anticipate.

The more you know...the easier it is.

len

[palincss]

I dealt directly with Parlee and it took three revisions for us to agree on geometry. They sent me a PDF of each revision to review. They were a pleasure to work with.

What sort of geometry changes were made? And why three revisions? Did you change your mind, or were their proposals not satisfactory until after repeated iterations?

[dmgry]

I have three customs from three different builders. I don't have a clue about geometry. I discussed with the builders what I wanted from the bike and left it up to them. They each asked for various measurements from me and info about prior bikes, what I liked and didn't. Each builder nailed what I wanted and I have been very happy.

Part of what I am paying for with a custom is their knowledge and expertise which I don't have, but they do. If you choose a reputable builder I would leave it up to them.

Dave

[weaponsgrade]

I'm puzzled by the comments regarding multiple back and forths on geometry between you and the builder. I have a general idea of how changes in geometry can affect one thing or another, but "signing off" on some specific geometry seems like such a farce. I mean as a nonbuilder can you really distill what you want down to the geometry?

I have two bikes from two different builders and close to getting a third custom frame. In each case all I said was what type of riding I intended to do, size of tires I wanted to run, etc. I'd also echo the comment on thinking exactly what kind of braze ons you want, cable routing, fenders, or other custom touches or finishes.

I think part of the responsibility lies with the builder to ask you these types of questions too. For example, I spec'd a braze-on FD. Builder asked whether I was going to run a compact or standard. Reason: the braze-on needs to be placed a bit lower on the seat tube for the compact; it also looks nicer if the FD is about centered in the braze-on slot. It's obvious now, but back then it didn't readily occur to me and I'm glad I was asked.

[1centaur]

With Parlee and Moots I gave the specs to the LBS who sent them in. Both came back with slightly different specs on a sheet and wanted sign-off. I said no, do what I want and they came back with the right numbers on round 2. There was no attempt to tell me my numbers were not right or suboptimal, nor should there have been because they were not unusual, so I think the first attempts were mistakes.

With Nick Crumpton, I said what I wanted both times (slightly different angles on bike #2) and he came back with perfect spec sheets for sign-off first time in each case. The first time I had a phone conversation with him before sending specs and the second time it was e-mail only, in part because he knew how well the first bike worked out. I hope NAHBS is in New England soon so I can meet him in person and thank him for his fine work.

[jmeloy]

I'm puzzled by the comments regarding multiple back and forths on geometry between you and the builder. I have a general idea of how changes in geometry can affect one thing or another, but "signing off" on some specific geometry seems like such a farce. I mean as a nonbuilder can you really distill what you want down to the geometry?

I have two bikes from two different builders and close to getting a third custom frame. In each case all I said was what type of riding I intended to do, size of tires I wanted to run, etc. I'd also echo the comment on thinking exactly what kind of braze ons you want, cable routing, fenders, or other custom touches or finishes.

I think part of the responsibility lies with the builder to ask you these types of questions too. For example, I spec'd a braze-on FD. Builder asked whether I was going to run a compact or standard. Reason: the braze-on needs to be placed a bit lower on the seat tube for the compact; it also looks nicer if the FD is about centered in the braze-on slot. It's obvious now, but back then it didn't readily occur to me and I'm glad I was asked.
I told Zanc what my current rides were and what I liked and disliked about both. He asked for measurements and built it and just killed it. Trust the right builder.

[Hardlyrob]

I told Zanc what my current rides were and what I liked and disliked about both. He asked for measurements and built it and just killed it. Trust the right builder.


This exact process worked with Dave Kirk - I sent him my fit numbers (thanks TiD), and told him what I liked / didn't about my current stable, how I intended to use the bike, lug preference, braze on's etc. He sent back a set of numbers - I asked one stupid question, and he built me the best bike I've ever ridden. I have no idea what the tubes are etc. and don't care.

Trust the builder - it's their job to know.

Rob

[mschol17]

My answer is as few as possible. The only geometry changes on my incoming frame were due to me not being clear about a couple things.

I think that one should go with a builder they trust and let them handle the details.

[Ti Designs]

I know my measurements cold....I know what bike geometry has worked for me...I know what I don't like aesteticially.....I know what handling characteristics I like/want.......I send all to the builder I trust.......clarify with a phone call/couple of e-mails...sit back & anticipate.


I'm puzzled by the comments regarding multiple back and forths on geometry between you and the builder. I have a general idea of how changes in geometry can affect one thing or another, but "signing off" on some specific geometry seems like such a farce. I mean as a nonbuilder can you really distill what you want down to the geometry?


I see this kinda like that customer that comes into the shop looking for a comfortable saddle. They don't know what saddle they're on, but they're gonna poke and bend a number of saddle to see if they can figure out which one is going to be best for them. And then there are the guys who say "I use X saddle, I've worn out my old one, need a new one."

[cmg]

first i sent the geometry i was thinking, then builder asked about dimensions on current bikes, then asked what i didn't like about them. Then the builder asked me where i wanted the contact points. it was so simple, how far do want the saddle from the BB center, how far to the bars, what stem do you want to use, lenght of cranks, type of saddle, seat post. sent the drawing to me, i sent back some questions. 4 drawings later it was done.

[the punisher]

i got some kind of fit kit book/paper something or another with the seven cycles info pack in which you actually take your own measurements and send them in but nothing came of it then as money limitations rendered me specialized. not complaining either, i love my ride!

seven is coming down the line though. or a litespeed. one of those two ti's.

[the punisher]

i doesn't serotta have something like that or is it all internet and phone related detailings?

[mister]

i sent a few emails to some UK builders to see about getting an audax type frame while the pound was low.
no replies.

i thought about it a more, decided this would be a bike i would ride a long time so i called a builder i met a while back. asked about the process. thought about it another week then decided to call and get it all started.

we talked about the philosophy of the bike over the phone. i have a good grasp on angles and such but i didn't bother with saying anything about the design i had in mind. just mentioned roughly the seat tube length and tt length.
he worked out a design after i sent him some measurement of my three bikes and some good pics of them.
he went with the dimensions i mentioned to him, then we decided to shorten the seat tube by a cm because the lugs we ended up going with have a small extension.
we decided to shorten the chainstays by a half centimeter.
left angles and rake as he designed.
told him use whatever tubing he wanted, no need to stay with a specific brand.

that's it.