Cyclops Powertap Questions

[dekindy]

I don't recall where, but I have seen a recommendation for the Cervo 2.4 as a wireless computer only as opposed to other brands without consideration of ever purchasing a Powertap hub. Any opinions regarding whether to purchase this for the sole purchase of using it as a wireless computer?

My LBS rents a complete Powertap package for $25 per three days of $60 for a week. I was considering renting it in March and June to measure my improvement(or lack of) during the riding season. Would this give me much beneficial information or simply be a novelty thing for me to do? How much information can be viewed on the Powertap screen without going to the effort of installing software and downloading the data to a computer? How much effort,time, hassle is involved installing and setting up the software? I have Windows XP Professional Edition.

For the cost it seems like a neat thing to do.

[rinconryder]

I would just buy the darn thing. You will need a couple of weeks at least to just play with it and understand it and then a couple of months to see the benefit - at that point you are already 600 or so deep - they sell the low end wireless model for 900 these days.

Power is an excellent training tool, but just seeing the numbers won't do much unless you actually use them to your benefit by analyzing and developing your training around them. Furthermore, you will want to get lactate testing done to find your zones and see where you should be at when you are training.

I used power for two years when training for Ironman races. It was the most beneficial thing I had and I even opted to just use my training wheel in a race over a disc because the value of having power numbers exceeded any gains I could get from a disc without power.

If you don't do the above it will just be an expensive bike computer to impress your friends, but it can also be an excellent tool if you put in the work. Just having it on your bike will not make you a better rider.

[dekindy]

I was trying to make my questions clear but I don't think that I did.

First question, I will probably never purchase a Powertap hub. What I was wondering is whether the Cervo 2.4 wireless computer would be as good or better than a Cateye, Sigma Sport, or Blackburn or even a Garmin 305 wireless computer and software analysis package?

Second question, for $25 I can rent a Powertap wheel from my LBS. It seems like measuring output over the same course 2-3 times per year would be a cost-effective method of evaluating my performance levels at various times of the year. I am not a racer but do want to improve my cycling. I am going to buy a wireless computer so that will be a sunk cost.

Can I record enough information from the Powertap computer for basic analysis or do I need to load the software on my desktop computer and download the data? If so, how much time and effort is needed to install the software and set it up and would it be worth it for 2-3 times use per year?

[jeffb]

I have been using a Cycleops Powerbeam trainer this winter. That is so far my only experience with power. However, the Cycleops Power Agent software is, I believe, the same for all Cycleops products, and it is very easy to setup and use. You may get a disc with the Cervo that contains the software and it is also very easy to download from the Saris website. As to your second question, if you comapre your power numbers to heart rate on the same course under similar conditions at various times during the year, I believe you would get helpful infornmation as to your fitness. But be careful, if you start using power, you probably will but a powermeter of some kind at some point. Jeff

[rinconryder]

Sorry, maybe I was a little confused. The computer has three displays with Watts being the largest of the numbers, speed being second and a third smallest display which is a number of things. You might be able to change the sequence but I am not sure about this - you can download the manual from the website and read about that.

1. watts: current / avg. / max
2. speed: current / avg. / max
3. multi: total miles / miles / calories burned (very accurate) / cadence / HR / Avg. HR

I know Saris sells a cadence sensor and pretty sure they sell a speed sensor (which you will need since you won't be running the hub full time). I don't know how much the computer costs separately, but if it is 200 - 300, you might want a garmin instead since you have the added benefit of mapping rides and vertical feet.

[bocarider]

I have been using a Powertap for 3 years now. Unless you are consistently training with a power meter, the intermittent testing is not going to provide you with any real benefit. Power meters are training tools, not just a measure for testing. Regular use of a power meter as part of a well designed training program is where you will see gains in power output under various testing conditions which should hopefully translate over into your racing or general riding. I do a test every 6 to 8 weeks at the end of a training block and a recovery week. I could not imagine going into the test blindly, not having the benefit of the weeks of training and data review that precedes the test – it just would not make sense as I would have no basis or benchmark against which to test. For example, if I am coming off a block of 3 x 20 mins at a particular wattage, and have been able to build up a consistent base of those efforts at a target wattage, when I do a 20 min test, I know what a 20 min effort feels like and what type of power I can average over 3 efforts, which helps me test better as I know I am not leaving anything in the tank by going out too slow or burning out by taking it out too fast. I have seen consistent improvements in my 20 min testing and significant improvements in my shorter testing over the last year.

If you are interested in training with a power meter, check out Hunter Allen and Andrew Coggins book on training with power. I learn more and more as I review the book every few months.

My suggestion is, if you don’t want to spend the money on a power meter, get a good wireless computer and a good heart rate monitor and train that way. Lots of people I ride with who are way stronger than I am get great results with that combination and saved a lot of money that I spent on my Powertap. I like using the power meter because it adds another dimension to my cycling, helps me set goals and have a consistent set of data to measure my progress. I still get dropped by the really fast guys in my Saturday ride, but I am getting better at prolonging the agony before I get dropped.

[keithreynolds]

Consider what you want to know first before buying the powertap head unit. There can be a lot of hassle getting the powertap from the shop and getting up to speed on how it works. The software allows you to see power in 1 second segments, which is far more useful than average information. The software will also tell you your best 1min, 30sec, 30min efforts (among others).

If you just record the information off the head's unit you will be limited to average power data for the ride, unless you take on the task of pushing buttons and mentally noting intervals; i.e. "the big hill", "the flat section", the "finishing mile", etc. To that end you'll just have average power for those intervals and for the entire ride. The max power shown will be for 1 second, and not that useful for what you want.

If you are not going to train with a powermeter, then I would suggest just sticking with timing yourself on a local course. You'll be able to gauge your improvements just the same and will be able to skip the ramp up time required to get used to the Saris head unit.. (figure 2-3 rides before you get used to the 2-button interface. It is not all that smart.)

Lastly, you may just want to invest $25 in a power training book first to realize what it is all about. This is one of the standards: http://www.amazon.com/Training-Racing-Power-Meter-Hunter/dp/1931382794

[Dave]

I use the wireless powertap computer with both a powertap wheel and on other bikes, with only a rear wheel mounted speed sensor ($50-60 each).

Switching from power mode to computer mode is simple. You hold down both buttons until the setup mode appears, click over to number 4, which brings up the options for power or no power display.

If power is not displayed, then heart rate is displayed at the top, where the power values normally are.

This is an expensive computer ($200-250) and it does not have all of the same features as some other less expensive computers. You can buy two sensors and also monitor cadence. If the powertap hub is used, it will display cadence with a fair degree of accuracy, by measuring the frequency of the torque impulses.

[dekindy]

Thanks everybody. After reviewing everyone's comments it does not make sense to purchase the Cervo 2.4 just to use as a wireless computer. There are plenty of less expensive models that do as much or more. It only seems to make sense if you are going to purchase the Powertap and measure power. Thanks.

From the limited comparison chart on the Powertap website, it is difficult for us novices to determine the difference between the least and most expensive Powertap model. It appears that other than the base model not having onboard analyis and heart rate(can't believe this is not included on every model) the unit axle diameter increases and weight decreases as the models get more expensive. Any other differences?

[Spicoli]

It will do everything any other wireless computer will do but costs more. Because your going to be paying for tech/options(power) you will never use since getting the hub is not in your future, then no its not worth it.

Is that what you had been looking for ;)

[dekindy]

It will do everything any other wireless computer will do but costs more. Because your going to be paying for tech/options(power) you will never use since getting the hub is not in your future, then no its not worth it.

Is that what you had been looking for ;)

Yes, I was trying to jog my memory regarding this recommendation and the cost/benefit if you were not ultimately going to purchase a Powertap. Thanks.

[djg]

Thanks everybody. After reviewing everyone's comments it does not make sense to purchase the Cervo 2.4 just to use as a wireless computer. There are plenty of less expensive models that do as much or more. It only seems to make sense if you are going to purchase the Powertap and measure power. Thanks.

From the limited comparison chart on the Powertap website, it is difficult for us novices to determine the difference between the least and most expensive Powertap model. It appears that other than the base model not having onboard analyis and heart rate(can't believe this is not included on every model) the unit axle diameter increases and weight decreases as the models get more expensive. Any other differences?

I don't know all the details, although I do have the new SL+, but it seems you have it about right -- because all the new (+) models are wireless, the big jump in functionality seems to occur between the Elite and Pro models, where the upgrade gets you onboard analysis and HR, in addition to the largest weight savings of any model change. The other differences seem mostly to have to do with construction and materials -- the change in axle diameter between the Pro and SL, and the various bits of alloy, carbon, etc. (and the ceramic bearings at the top end for anybody who wants to pay for that).

It seems to me that you're leaning toward ditching this option for a cycle computer, which makes sense to me for all the reasons stated already (basically, if there's no power measurement tool, it's a very, very pricey wireless bike computer).

[rbtmcardle]

I believe the units are all the same except weight and axle diameter

[jeffb]

I am in the process of getting powertap hub. The very lowest (in cost) model is still wired. There are 4 wireless models. The elite has a 12mm steel axle and a steel cassette body. It does not show peak power and time in power zones onboard (although these will show when you download into the Power Agent software). It does not come with a heart rate chest strap, and thus does not show HR as it comes. But it is my understanding if you have a Cycleops chest strap or purchase one later, the elite onboard computer will show heart rate. The pro has a 12mm aluminunm axle and an aluminum cassette body, thus the weight reduction. It has the onboard analysis features the elite lacks, and it comes with a HR chest strap. The sl has a 15mm aluminum axle (apparently some pro and/or very strong riders felt flex in or bent the 12mm aluminum axles) and some carbon in the hub body reducing weight. Electronically it is just like the pro. The slc is just like the sl except it has ceramic bearings.

[fierte_poser]

the pic worth 1000 words...

[dekindy]

Thanks Jeffb. I saw the chart but missed the based wired model. It appears that the chart does cover all the differences of the wireless models except for being able to add a heart monitor at a later date.

[Lionel]

I am digging out this very old thread. I am trying to figure out the differences between the Pro+ and the SL+. It seems that they are now both using a 15mm axle. So the only difference seems to be the aluminum shell versus the Alum/carbon shell for a 50g saving and $400 more.....

On the CycleOps web site they clearly state 15mm axle for both. When I look at the manual there is still a reference to 12mm for the Pro+.

Thanks

[ergott]

Seeing that chart, I am reminded that the axles were different. For that price difference, I would bet that the website has a type-o. I would simply call them up to get the real answer. They are great people to talk to on the phone.