hors category and climbing [Archive]

Sandy

01-12-2004, 04:09 PM

Dust that critter off! If it is your size, go for it. The Hors is a great bike! Smiley, who owns one, will surely comment when he reads this. All I can say is that I watch the lean 175 pound Smiley motor away from me as we are climbing hills. But then again, the local box turtle, Terrible Tom, keeps pace with me up steeper hills. There are no more Hors bikes with the DKS rear, since there is no longer the DKS rear, partially because Serotta didn't do a very good job presenting the DKS system. It is both a performance and a comfort additon to an already wonderful bike. Negotiate, negotiate, and buy that lonely, unhappy critter. Better hurry before Smiley beats you to the punch! It must fit or else it is all a big waste of time.

Sandy

Smiley

01-12-2004, 06:07 PM

There are some that say they can feel the rear flex on an ALL out of the saddle climbs, I can't since I spin up them hills, comes from all the Tandem riding I do where out of the saddle work is limited. Its not the climbing thats makes the Hors perform to its intended duty its all the other stuff like going down hill fast and carving a turn with your butt firmly planted with no rear wheel skip. The Hor's becomes a rare collectors item as you won't find a THING that performs anywhere close to this bike. Different strokes for different folks.
What size bike does yourr dealer have as I would be very interested if its 58 or 59 cm so please write me off-line in my mailbox and let me know or give me that LBS is name. thanks Mr Climb .

MarinRider

01-12-2004, 08:42 PM

The post from the previous forum was by me.

I had climbed extensively on my Hors both in Europe and in the States. On long climbs it actually help you spin by allowing you to sit in the saddle a little longer. I also set my Mount Washington PR of 1:15:30 on my Hors in 2002, which is over 5 minutes faster than on my rigid bikes. You will notice a little lost of energy on short power bursts on small inclines but the benefit far outweights the cost imo.

Having lived and rode in the Boston area for over 5 years, Hors is a great bike for the rough roads there. It is not "plush" like some dual suspension mountain bikes but you will feel fresher on long rides.

dnovo

01-12-2004, 09:46 PM

The one Climb mentioned is too large for me, and a road, not a Cross, or I would have been there in a flash. Any Hors Cat sounds great, particularly a Cross version which should be very sweet indeed. (I think Dave mentioned to me there were only a dozen or so built, so they are rare among the rare.)

Proof that merit alone does not sales make. Too bad, and hopefully, Serotta will at least maintain the elastomers in stock for a while for those lucky enough to own these bikes. Dave N.

Wanker

01-12-2004, 09:50 PM

There is some minimal rear end flex when climbing out of the saddle. Albeit negligable in the scheme of recreation cycling. To me, the advantages of the Hors Cat far exceed any disadvantage. If you are a heavy weight and live in a hilly region, the Hors Cat MAY be too flexy on climbs. Don't ask me what too heavy is; I'm 5'11" and 165 and the DKS works great for me. If the bike fits and the price is right, you got my approval to join the exclusive Hors Cat club!
I've had my Hors for four years and I still can't wait for my next mount! The Hors is exceptional on long rides, and is really effective in dealing with chip seal surfaces. Don't let me mislead you here, the DKS does not completely eliminate chip seal vibration, but it sure helps. It's greatest strength is chewing up "S" turns while flying down hills. Definately a WOW experience. I'll tell you this much, it took me a few thousand miles to truly appreciate the many attributes of my Hors. The first season I got my Hors, it was all I rode. It wasn't until I started riding my ol' lugged steal bike again, that I could really discern the HUGE differences between a traditional frame and the Hors Cat. Conversely, riding the Hors makes me appreciate the traditional lugged steal frame all the more.
A bicycle's feel is so subjective. For me, my experience with the Hors Cat has opened my eyes to the possibilities of trying other fine lugged steal bikes. For now, the Hors Cat is the bike that all my future bikes must measure up to; it has piqued my appetite to try more bikes. I lust for more!

wanker

Smiley II

01-13-2004, 07:37 AM

I own Hor's Categorie serial # 53 , I had demo'd the prototype at the factory before its unveiling. I knew it looked like a winner to me anyway. It was not till Ben dropped by on his way to see his daughter that I saw his Hor's Cat that he had, a production model with the Red/ Yellow Sizzler paint scheme that my wife knew I needed one. I had to sell my Legend Ti to buy this bike , sorry I parted with the Legend because its serial # was # 25 . My MTB frame a TiMax has a BB serial # of 43 so I am one to jump on Serotta innovation in a hurry.
I wonder how many Hor's Categorie frames were sold during their production run, I am still not happy that they dropped the Hor's name due to the inability of people to pronounce the name properly or maybe to simplyfy the name to a Legend with a DKS rear end. I hope that if we keep bring up this DEAD issue with all its virtues that maybe one day soon Serotta will bring this bike back to life. I am trying so hard to purchase an Ottrott DKS cause I know that this set up will be NIRVANA. Now where is Serotta Allison when you need her to read something, maybe I'll copy her this note.
I hope you all can help explain the virtues of this bike every chance you get. Where's AJ when you need him. Thanks Dave Kirk for your steady input on this subject.

Wanker

01-13-2004, 12:21 PM

Hi Smiley II,

I had the opportunity to test ride a Ottrott ST for an awesome 65 mile test run last summer. Talk about no wasted energy ascending hills! Compared to my Hors or any other bike I've ridden, well there's no cmparison - so far. The Ottrott enabled me to tirelessly hammer on all the hills. It was fun to say the least. However, I found the Ottrott to be rather harsh on the flats and decents in comparison to my Hors and Raleigh Pro. In general, the Ottrott ST performed like all the Serotta's I've ridden should - excellent! Just be careful of what you wish for. What you may gain in stiffness, you may sacrifice in overall comfort.
My wife, on the otherhand, absolutely loved the Ottrott ST she tested. Her regular bike is a Trek 5200 with a triple crank - the Ottrott had a double with a rear end big gear of 26, I think. By the end of her ride I was really concerned. I thought for sure she was going to insist on ordering a new Ottrott right then and there! No need for a triple with the Ottrott! She handled the long climbes with ease on her 90 mile test ride. Unlike me, she was able to control her lust for a new bike - at least for now. (I'm always lusting for other bikes!)
An Ottrott with DKS, dunno. It would be nice to test ride one. I've always said, you only live once. Indulge yourself if you can swing it. Whatever floats your turd - as my daughter says.
By the way and for the record, the Hors Category IS a beautiful bike and is a incredible work of technology. It doesn't make me feel like the odd man out because Serotta discontinued the Hors. I feel very lucky to have one.

wanker

Ken Robb

01-13-2004, 12:37 PM

Chuck Moore loaned me his H'ors for a week and I think I rode it 200 miles or so. I didn't notice any drawback climbing and I loved it on fast bumpy descents(La Jolla Shores Drive). Too bad it was 57cm and I need 60 or 61cm. I think the look would grow on me. If you find one your size I think you should give it a try. If you don't over-pay I would bet that you can sell it to someone else if you don't fall in love with it yourself. Make sure it has the appropriate elastomers for your weight for a valid test.

Smiley II

01-13-2004, 01:26 PM

I rode Ben's Ottrott ST with Ksyrium wheels , so I know what your saying . I have spoken to the only authority I know of that owns an Ottrott DKS , Ron Kiefel and he loves his. I ride my Hor's with the only worthy wheels I know of , Mavic Helium's and its truly a magic carpet ride for me, I don't want to go harsh as I did own Stupid Mavic Cosmic's when they were the Fad du Jour . I know what the Ottrott brings to the table about BB rigidity and torsional stiffness. I think this frame would climb by itself.

I want an Ottrott DKS , is this too much to ask for in life. I feel very lucky to own my Hor's Categorie frame and will never part with it. Take that to the bank.

dave thompson

01-13-2004, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by Smiley II

..... I feel very lucky to own my Hor's Categorie frame and will never part with it. Take that to the bank.

Dang!

Ken Robb

01-13-2004, 01:36 PM

Don't give up on Smiley's ride yet. He used to say the same thing about threaded F1 forks.

Johny

01-13-2004, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by Smiley II
I rode Ben's Ottrott ST with Ksyrium wheels , so I know what your saying . I have spoken to the only authority I know of that owns an Ottrott DKS , Ron Kiefel and he loves his. I ride my Hor's with the only worthy wheels I know of , Mavic Helium's and its truly a magic carpet ride for me, I don't want to go harsh as I did own Stupid Mavic Cosmic's when they were the Fad du Jour . I know what the Ottrott brings to the table about BB rigidity and torsional stiffness. I think this frame would climb by itself.

I want an Ottrott DKS , is this too much to ask for in life. I feel very lucky to own my Hor's Categorie frame and will never part with it. Take that to the bank.

A few months ago, there was a mint 53cm Ottrott DKS (only 300 miles) on eBay and with all the bells and whisles (Camy Record Carbon...) for only 4 grands ("buy it now" price). Not sure it fitted my riding style, I did not try to grasp it. It of course went to a lucky guy... Hey, are you there to give some comments?

David Kirk

01-13-2004, 03:09 PM

How cool is it that even after its death the Hors Cat is still a topic of conversation ?

I hope that if you want a DKS that you continue to let Serotta know your desires. Be patient and maybe if you ask nice they'll bust out the old tooling and make another batch.

Dave

Smiley II

01-13-2004, 03:13 PM

I tried over dosing those guys and gals with Cookies over the holidays and that did not work. Whose pockets I got to grease Dave. I want a DKS Ottrott !! Or how about a Ti DKS rear end Coupled to a steel front end built by Kirk ? Interesting as I get both my frames built as one.

dnovo

01-13-2004, 04:59 PM

Jeez, just what I need, another bike. After reading all of these notes, and looking at the photos I took of the Hors Cat Cross bike, I called my friends at Albertos and we did some hot and heavy negotiating. Since that bike fits me other than needing to change the stem to a slightly higher one, it should be at Casa Novo this weekend.

Darn it guys, stop, my wife will divorce me at this rate. Dave N.

Smiley

01-13-2004, 05:02 PM

This maybe your most prized possesion. It will ride like no other bike in your stable. A nice winter riding rig as after all its a cross geometry. Nice find, and interested to hear your views on the ride.

dnovo

01-13-2004, 06:33 PM

Thanks, Captain my Captain. Its no doubt something I was fated to do one day, particularly in light of my other three Kirks. Oh well, it is a Cross bike, so since I only have one of those (Gunnar) it's far easier to try to persuade my wife I 'needed' the Hors rather than rationalize another road bike. (Yeah, sure, who am I trying to kid! She's gonna kill me no matter what I say.)

Dave N

Sandy

01-13-2004, 08:06 PM

It certainly seems that Serotta does a magnificent job in producing bikes that its customers want, and I am certainly not privy to their reasoning as to what they do and why they do it. However, there are certainly some individuals who really want to purchase a Serotta with a DKS rear. I know that Smiley really wants an Ottrott DKS and M A Martin has said the same, I believe, but I think her real interest, if I am not mistaken, is a Legend DKS (Hors, I guess). I wonder if Serotta would perhaps say that they are willing to produce a limited number of DKS bikes, if in fact a real interest is shown, perhaps secured by a deposit. It would certainly make some REAL cycling and Serotta enthusiasts very happy, which could only help the already wonderful image that Serotta possesses.

Mr. Ben Serotta, how about a limited production of those wonderful DKS Serotta bicycles???

Give the DKS another chance. Perhaps market as a performance and a comfort addition.

STill Serotta Sandy

Sandy

01-18-2004, 01:05 PM

Wanker,

There could be a few resons why you found the Ottrott ST harsh in the flats and descending. You did not mention that the bike your wife tried seemed to have that Effect on her. The Ottrott comes in 4 levels of stiffness- soft (really not soft), medium, firm flex, and stiff. The ST rear comes in two levels. The chainstays can be regular or oversized. I weigh 210 plus now, and I have the firm flex, oversized chainstays and the softer of the two seat stays. I do not find the bike too harsh at all.

Wheels and tires make an amazing difference on ride quality and the psi used in the tires is critical. Even wheel roundness is quite important. Perhaps you were riding an Ottrott ST not quite suitable to your weight.

Sandy

Sandy

01-18-2004, 01:11 PM

As I was writing a response to Wanker's post, I was thinking about the other comments on this thread on the Hors, and I was wondering if anyone addressed any of their comments to Serotta or Ben Serotta concerning their desire to having another chance of obtaining a bike with a DKS rear?? Seems like quite a shame to me, as the Hors and the DKS rear simply have a stellar reputation. Maybe Serotta would let Dave Kirk put on a DKS rear if they are not interested.

STill Serotta Sandy

marvl

01-18-2004, 06:00 PM

After reading all these comments, I realize how lucky I am to have the HORS CAT. DKS CROSS #006. I't encouraged me to continue riding after my back surgery.
Thanks Smiley

marvl

Climb01742

01-18-2004, 06:03 PM

on this thread, admitting you have a hors is dangerous. just don't give out your address. like jimmy hoffa, it may just disappear one night. :beer:

Wanker

01-18-2004, 08:17 PM

The Ottrott ST that I test rode was said to be a medium ride - regular sized chain stays, with campy euros wheels and I think continental gp 3000 tires. My Hors Cat has campy nuecleon clinchers with conti gp 3000 tires. The wheels look very similar. Harsh is perhaps too strong of an adjectve when describing the ride of the ottrott st. Let's put it this way, my Hors Cat rides much smoother than the Ottrott ST I test rode. Hope that's better. On the other hand, the ottrott st climbes hills much better than my Hors does. Please don't get me wrong, I liked the Ottrott just fine, I just didn't feel compelled to buy one. - I do agree with you that the Ottrott st that I rode may not have been a correct match for me. I'll have to try another one!
- My wife, on the otherhand, absolutely loved her test ride and wouldn't stop me if I got her one. - I bought her something better though - a CSI!

wanker

Ahneida Ride

01-18-2004, 08:29 PM

Mr. Kirk

Yea Dave, I also vote for the return of the HC or DKS.
I would love to test ride a 64 or 65 DKS.

Has Serotta built any DKS's in larger sizes ?

Smiley

01-19-2004, 06:45 AM

Why do you think I want a Ottrott DKS so bad, its like a Reese's Cup , Peanut Butter and Chocolate in the same candy. Think DKS and Carbon in the same frame. Torsional rigidity and smoothness all in one frame. Now please don't get me wrong as the ST works just dandy but imho not as smooth as the DKS. I guess I am fortunate to have purchased a Hor's Categorie as well as having influnenced the sale of no less than 6 other lucky owners of this frame, my buddy MarvL being one lucky person to own one.

Sandy

01-19-2004, 06:56 AM

Hey Smiley, I don't own one. Will you GIVE me one for my next birthday, my good friend???

Gloria, throw out the kitchen table and make room for a new Serotta with a DKS rear. I think that Smiley is going to GIVE me one. What a fine friend he is, indeed!

STill Smiling Smiley Smiles STill Serotta Sandy

Wanker

01-19-2004, 12:46 PM

I guess I missed something in this thread. Is the DKS no lnger available on the Ottrott too? DUH!?
The Ottrott with DKS would look way cool! Though, for me it's too hard to imagine what the difference in ride would be in comparing it to the Hors Cat. Has anyone on this forum ridden a Ottrott DKS?

Wanker

Smiley II

01-19-2004, 12:52 PM

when they killed the DKS they killed it all. No DKS no matter what you call it. I did speak to Ron Kiefel who owns a Ottrott DKS and he likes his ( I think he knows what he's taking about with bikes?) and I maybe tempted to make him an offer for it.

Wanker

01-19-2004, 01:06 PM

Next time you talk to Ron, it would be great to get a more detailed
impression of his Ottrott DKS, especially in comparison to his Hors Cat.

Wanker

Smiley II

01-19-2004, 01:33 PM

I think the DKS is on the Ottrott and thats all he has, thats not to say he has never ridden an Hor's in Ti , but since I am trying to buy this bike off of him I don't want him to think its really that nice or I am desperate to buy it. Let sleeping dog lay Wanker. I've gotten a better verbal review from him on his rig.

Wanker

01-19-2004, 08:32 PM

You're right, let that sleeping dog lay.
I think ron k. owned a hors Cat back in 2000; at least according to the serotta 2000 catalogue. There's picture or Ron putting his Hors Cat through through it's paces...

wanker

Stewball

01-20-2004, 12:15 AM

Sorry it took so long to jump on this thread. I still believe the Hors should be carried as an exotic. You pay yer money, you wait the time, (it could be a very long time but, it's worth the wait). Those that would order the Hors are probably serious riders (don't ask how I got one) that have other bikes to ride.
Folks like Mary Ann have a valid reason for the bike, it's better on their bodies and it handles like no other bike made, (and the poor girl waited so long to order that perfect bike). The patent proves it; there are no alternatives. This shouldn't be thought of as a run of the mill bike, it's special, it was never marketed as the bike for everyone, (hell, it was never marketed-apologies if there was a plan I never heard of).
If the bike is made for the rider, a true custom, the loss of power in the sprint isn't that noticeable and I've never felt any loss up a grade. If the rider specifies a ride, Kelly will make that ride possible, want it stiff, order it.
The roads in Nevada aren't as nice as those in Arizona and the hills are steep and winding. The Hors is sucking up everything we encounter. I hope to become a better rider as the bikes capabilities are far superior than mine.
Smiley, one of these days we�re gunna get a ride in; perhaps get the other exclusive members of the Hors Catagorie to jump in. Would you folks like to ride up and down Mount Charleston? Just don�t drop me to fast.

Have fun,
A. J.

Smiley

01-20-2004, 05:56 AM

I think your 100 % correct , Serotta should build these as limited production runs maybe one time per year that way they get their backlog up so the can mass produce these special framesets.
I don't know if you've heard the news that Brother Novo has just secured himself another steal of a 2002 Hor's Cat racing frame. With that said I have nominated him to be our new spokes person since he has now found religion in the Hor's Categorie bicycle. If I was Dave I'd put the finest Brooks saddle on that baby and ride it with a smile on my face. Desperatly seeking an Ottrott with DKS rear end. Is somebody out there reading these posts in Serottaville? If so bring it back please. You've got my depost on one once you do.

Stewball

01-20-2004, 08:56 AM

There aren't many but, it's always been that way with quality, (not quantity).

Daves cross bike causes a huge void...I'm not comfortable without it...hmmmm...the thought of a stiff Ottrott DKS was there but the good folks at Serotta were kind enough to save me the money.

As we keep bringing up the subject we get others that hook on and understand the design. There are at least three people that would purchase the rear from these posts a lone, (M_A, Smiley, and the guy on dnovo Hors post from the UK, oh and there was someone asking about a very large one too). Keep piling on, we're looking for a kind soul to autherize the number (which we don't know) to be built. Yea, I know, they won't produce them no matter what...but, it would be nice.

The weather makes more and more people realize they can ride cross bikes during the normal down time if the bike fits well. Those that do get out there will find what mtb people have found, you get good handling skills from bad conditions, (helped Lance). My Hors has found its way off the road many times, keeping me from being a hood ornament.

Be careful &
Have fun,
A. J. :crap:

Climb01742

01-20-2004, 09:00 AM

i spent yesterday at my LBS scheming how to make an hors they have work for me -- but TT is just too long -- and my guy there gave me his take on why ben stopped making 'em. the folks who supplied the various parts for the DKS had to raise their prices. so much so that it would have added hundreds of dollars to the frames price. ben still believes the technology is good, but it's just too tough to build them for a reasonable price. at least that's what i was told.

MarinRider

01-20-2004, 02:12 PM

I spoke to both Ben & Lori about the DKS last year while they were in town for SF Grand Prix.

They both had great things to say about the DKS, specially Lori who raced extensively on her Hors.

What it came down to, it seems to me, was a pure economic and business decision. There were not a lot of demand for the DKS and its parts were expensive to fabricate. At the same time, the demand for Ottrott was/is taking off and its parts are more readily available and perhaps less costly, it made sense for Serotta to focus its energy and resources on the new model. As a business person and an accidental economist I understand and appreciate the circumstance.

I would even guess that a limited run of the DKS is not a compelling proposition for Serotta. The opportunity cost to make a run of 10 DKS bikes would far out weight whatever profit Serotta can make out of this exercise. Now if we can go to Ben and say that we have 100 firm DKS orders I am sure that he would think twice...

Of course, Ben can always just make (or allow Dave to make) a few DKS bikes for our limited demand because he is being a nice guy. I am all for that too.

Stewball

01-20-2004, 10:15 PM

So...raise the price.

What'll it be?

There is another thing about exotic$.

(Someone had to ask)

Kevin

01-21-2004, 05:46 AM

If it is only about money, then Serotta should simply raise the price. They could also do what Chris King does with its Ti headsets, have one or two "runs" per year. If you want DKS you can order it now, but it won't be manufactured for up to a year depending upon when the manufacturing run takes place. Between raising the price, and manufacturing them as a group, I am sure that Serotta can earn a profit. In addition, these actions will really make the DKS an exotic.

Kevin

Climb01742

01-21-2004, 07:27 AM

playing out the economic "what if"...

serotta, like every company, has finite resources. deciding the best use of those resources becomes a question of marginal utility. ben would have to weigh the marginal utility of a DKS run (short- and long-term) vs. the marginal utility of ottrott production, or legend production, or whatever. finite resources would, i think, argue that the best marginal utility lies elsewhere. (whew. would my college econ profs be proud of me now or horrorified?)

Stewball

01-21-2004, 08:45 AM

Have to agree, economic view points are logical. Glad I got that out of the way.

This board is not so much the logic as the PASSION is what drives us, (no disrespect to y'all) . The passion to push this point, the passion to wake at a ridiculas hour to get some riding in, the passion to pay a stupid amount of money for what our parents bought us for a coupla hundred dollars, the passion to have the best equipment under the not so best body for the job :banana: , let's face it, we're not here because we want what others have. We want the best for the job, (even if we're not qualified for the job).

That cross bike is buggin me. And maybe a really stiff OttRott with DKS is a good idea for those special moments. I'm starting to hate Stewball, (speaking of passion)

Gotta go...the Tour de Phoenix is ten weeks out and it's time to train!

Ah, Passion. :crap:

Wouldn't it be nice to be the reciever of money you can sit on for a year before delivering your product to those who must wait. It too would be nice to be the actual guy in the factory for whom all these rich snobby people must wait before he will ply his art.

Have fun,
A.J.

Sandy

01-21-2004, 08:59 AM

They aren't all rich.
They aren't all snobby.
Some rich are snobby.
Some rich aren't snobby.
Some not rich are snobby.
Some not rich aren't snobby.
Some rich are passionate about cycling.
Some not rich are passionate about cycling.
The list goes on.....

I own a Serotta Ottrott ST.
I am very passionate about cycling.
I am richer than many and poorer than many.
I certainly hope that I am not perceived as a snob.

Rich Snobby People- What was your point???? Was it really necessary?

Wanker

01-21-2004, 11:21 AM

I detected that Stewball was communicating with tongue in cheek.
There is not one poster here that is snobby - except for the jerk!
Just kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wanker

Stewball

01-21-2004, 08:36 PM

Dear Sandy, (really)

I don't mean any harm, I was speaking tonge in cheek. As long as I've been on this board there are many people which I find to be more human, (not snobby) than any others I've met in my business. You are one of the most special people I've had the pleasure to communicate with. I still hold special the card you sent almost a year ago during my run with pneumonia. The signatures gathered on that card were of special people that care and share my passion for cycling, (and there are so many more of us that wish we could be near you to share a mile or two, you're fun). Hope you'll understand that I too, am from a very ...well, we didn't have stuff, (at all). My Hors Catagorie represents a large portion of my yearly income. The people making our bikes at the Serotta factory probably don't share the pessimistic view I portrayed when writing the previous post, I'm sure they're proud of their product and grateful for the people riding their creations.

I have been in the high end automotive business for many years. Our customers regularly put down thousands of dollars, (at times fifty to several hundred) for automobiles they will not see for over a year or more. At times we've had to require a recommitment (even more money) from them and they don't even ask for an eta.

My mission was to state that those who desire exotic things will often pay and wait.

Have fun,
A. J.

Sandy

01-22-2004, 12:25 AM

Dear Stewball, (really)

Sometimes I am too sensitive as to what people say. If someone owns a really nice bike, it does not make them rich or snobby, as you know, and I guess I get tired of hearing people saying it so often. I appreciate your post. Sorry that I was so sensitive. Interestingly, I have become a more sensitive person since cycling has become a passion of mine.

Sorry, So Sensitve STill Serotta Sandy