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android
03-08-2009, 12:36 AM
So today, I decide once again to head out with a regular group ride in town. A mix of riders on mostly new expensive bikes. But one guy's chain is squealing up a storm because it probably hasn't be lubed since he bought the bike. We got one lady whose bottle cages are all bent and her bottle fell out at RR track and then we got one guy whose bottle cage actually broke off the bike. On another ride, we had a guy who ran over one of those surveying flags on the way to the start of the ride. It somehow wound up in his RD and bent it all up. Rather than go home like he should have, we're stopping every 10 miles to nurse his RD along.

Is it normal for people to have this many mechanical issues? I take care of my own bike and always give it a look over the night before. Is this too much to ask?

Steve in SLO
03-08-2009, 01:14 AM
I'd have to really like the group to continue ride with it, if that's the norm.
OTOH, it's early spring...perhaps by midsummer they'll have their bikes dialed-in.

SadieKate
03-08-2009, 01:21 AM
The next to the last time I was on a ride like that someone took a ride in an ambulance. The last time someone showed up in in cotton longjohns for a winter mtb ride in the Cascade mountains. I ended up babysitting him back to the car, riding laps back and forth on the trail because he kept stopping (without telling me) because was cramping so badly from lack of condition and cold. This only seems to happen on club rides, not with my friends, so I've gotten very hesitant to ride anyplace at all remote with people I don't know.

On the other hand, one of these friends who does maintain his bike won't deal with his ski equipment. Every time we go backcountry skiing his boots rub his feet so badly he gets incredibly cranky plus his boots squeak on the 3-pin bindings. Monday we were in the back of beyond in the heavenly silence of a high Cascade snow storm and huge hemlocks. Squeak, squeak, squeak. I wanted to slap him upside the head. Dude, use a dremel tool and take off 1/64th of an inch of that binding. Better yet, get new boots. I'm sick of your consistent crankiness. And he brought adjustable poles that he knew would un-adjust at regular intervals.

Ray
03-08-2009, 06:51 AM
Is it normal for people to have this many mechanical issues? I take care of my own bike and always give it a look over the night before. Is this too much to ask?
I'm constantly running into people on the road or in group rides who don't have the slightest mechanical clue. The lady riding with the old guy I posted about yesterday had a rear brake rubbing and didn't know from the barrel adjuster or from an allen wrench. Her pads were misaligned, were off-center, and the brake was closed up too tight. I grabbed an allen wrench and adjusted the shoes so they were both hitting the same part of the rim (one had been almost on the tire, the other hanging off the bottom of the rim), got the shoes adjusted so the rim was centered between them, and loosened her barrel adjuster. It was the one minute job it sounds like. She thought I was some sort of genius. At the beginning of group rides, there's almost a mini-mechanical seminar as some of us fix the myriad little issues that have come up on the bikes of folks who don't do their own work. I don't mind really - I'd be equally clueless on lots of other stuff, like cars! And I remember how mysterious it all was when I was new to it. But I don't do a lot of group rides so I don't ride with people like that very often.

-Ray

toaster
03-08-2009, 07:20 AM
Seems to me mechanical problems plague a group ride vary rarely. It usually has the effect of magnifying the issue where the victim gets it fixed out of embarrassment and others pay attention to pre-ride maintenance even more.

Tire/wheel problems and flats are usually more common.

BumbleBeeDave
03-08-2009, 08:46 AM
. . . She thought I was some sort of genius. . . .

You ARE a genius. We just haven't wanted to tell you because we were afraid you'd get a swelled head. :D ;)

BBD

GregL
03-08-2009, 08:56 AM
The organized group rides I participate in don't seem to have these problems. Most people who are serious enough to regularly ride with the local clubs or teams keep their bikes in good working order. Of course it's likely that in a very large group (50+ people at a summer club ride), somebody will have a mechanical of some sort. But the number of mechanicals is not very large. Usually, a "good Samaritan" will stop and help the person with the mechanical.

An anecdote from yesterday's ride. A solid group of cat 2s, 3s, and masters met for a 60 mile training ride. Almost everyone was in winter training mode, full fenders and 25-30 width tires. The only mechanicals? Two flats for the same guy who decided the roads were clean enough to break out his summer racing wheels and tires (Michelin Pro3s). He profusely apologized for his error in judgment :).

Regards,
Greg

terry
03-08-2009, 09:14 AM
here's a good one: ran across a guy who had a flat and didn't have a spare tube or a pump/co2. i couldn't help him cause i ride tubulars but i couldn't help not feeling sorry for him. he kept raving about his new trek, cost him $3K but he didn't even have any idea how to change a tire.

Onno
03-08-2009, 09:23 AM
It is really irritating riding with folks who don't take care of their bikes, and then in a sense force their problems on you. This is partly why I almost never ride in large groups.

On the other hand, weren't we all like this once? These folks are just new to the sport, as I was a few decades ago, and I remember being awed by those who knew a lot about bikes, and could quickly help me adjust or fix mine. I certainly felt guilty when I held others up, and learned quickly how to take care of my own bikes through the thoughtful and ungrumbling help of others.

thwart
03-08-2009, 09:25 AM
Well, all of these folks are light-years ahead of the idiot in the SUV who goes by way too close... :crap:

Because they've never been on a road bike and have no clue...

Ray
03-08-2009, 10:44 AM
You ARE a genius. We just haven't wanted to tell you because we were afraid you'd get a swelled head. :D ;)

BBD
Oh yeah, I'm frickin' EINSTEIN when it comes to getting a rear brake off of the rim. Relativity, however, I suck at. Relatively, of course. Some people are worse.

-Ray

caleb
03-08-2009, 11:02 AM
he kept raving about his new trek, cost him $3K but he didn't even have any idea how to change a tire.

There's a good chance that guy went back to the shop where he bought the bike and insisted they "warranty" his flat tire.

To the OP, no, I don't ride with the sort of people you describe. I know there are rides like that, but I wouldn't go on one to save my life.

As someone above mentioned, team training rides seem to not have mechanical issues. They do tend to have other issues, but at least the bikes work.

Chad Engle
03-08-2009, 11:11 AM
It is really irritating riding with folks who don't take care of their bikes, and then in a sense force their problems on you. This is partly why I almost never ride in large groups.

On the other hand, weren't we all like this once? These folks are just new to the sport, as I was a few decades ago, and I remember being awed by those who knew a lot about bikes, and could quickly help me adjust or fix mine. I certainly felt guilty when I held others up, and learned quickly how to take care of my own bikes through the thoughtful and ungrumbling help of others.

I know of folks who bring the cell phone instead of spare tubes and a pump. I don't feel bad not helping them if they're not even going to try.

Kind of my job as a dad to teach my child to change a flat on his/her bicycle isn't it?

I don't mind helping out along the bike path/road but I would find a new group to ride with if the ride was spent fixing bicycles.

rugbysecondrow
03-08-2009, 11:20 AM
Group rides are hard because they each have their own culture and norms. Some are more prone to beginners and others are tight knit and have been riding together for years. I attended a group ride once where the guys were nice and accommodating, but didn't obey traffic rules and blew through stoplights, snaked through traffic at intersections etc. Not my crowd.

There was LBS shop here in Maryland that had a huge Tuesday night supported ride that brought lots of beginners out. They canceled it due to beginner type issues (etiquette, mechanical etc.). Not certain if it is strictly a rider or an organizational issue, but I like the idea of newbies getting out and learning how to ride and tend to their equipment. These were typically new folks training for triathlons, not cyclist per se so that also impacts their level of knowledge and learning.

Cheers and enjoy the weather today!

Ti Designs
03-08-2009, 01:03 PM
The question is what is your expectation of the people you ride with? I split the rides into two categories, ones with high expectations of the other riders and ones with no expectations.

Every September the new riders for the Harvard team show up. Many of them don't have their own bikes so they borrow something, probably from someone who isn't even close to their size. They show up without air in their tires, with non-functioning bikes, dressed for weather that's long past in the season. One guy was lent shoes for clipless pedals and decided that it would be a good idea to try them out on his first ride. He fell over a lot, sometimes just on the ground, mostly on other riders, once right in front of a bus... This is what I call my Harvard education - how to deal with a hundred cycling disasters at the same time. In the end there isn't much riding going on, but it is what it is. Two weeks later we have most of the problems ironed out...

On rides with high expectations I see it as a show of respect. Being late or showing up with a bike that doesn't work means the group has to wait - there's no respect for the group in that. My bike is never in perfect working order, but ask anyone I ride with or coach if they've ever had to wait up because I had a problem with my bike - few people have even seen me get a flat tire.

I had one ride this fall that was a mix of the two types. I was back with the slow group on one of the Harvard morning rides. There were only three of them, I was riding with my hand on the back of the big guy going up the hills, just to even out the power/weight ratio of the group when my pedal spindle snapped. I quickly changed tactics and slowed down the fastest rider, and the group stayed together. The spindle had broken at the outer bearing, so as long as I didn't try to push it would stay. At the end of the ride none of them knew I had any sort of mechanical problem.

forzapantani
03-08-2009, 01:11 PM
Unless they are your closest friends...don't offer mechanical assistance. I mean, you are there to ride not work, right? (Plus, if another mishap occurs they may decide that your labor caused the issue and end up suing you)
Solo mio ciclismo

Ray
03-08-2009, 01:16 PM
Unless they are your closest friends...don't offer mechanical assistance. I mean, you are there to ride not work, right? (Plus, if another mishap occurs they may decide that your labor caused the issue and end up suing you)
Solo mio ciclismo
You are there to ride, but for some of us, part of the enjoyment of riding is the social aspect. And part of the social aspect is helping people who need help. Hell, I've been there. I've felt helpless with a flat for the first couple of months I was riding and helpless with other things a lot longer. People helped me then. I help people now. They'll help someone else later. This is a bad thing?

-Ray

CaliFly
03-08-2009, 01:57 PM
Dealing with occasional mech problems is one thing...nursing a clueless rider during one ride is another...neglecting to inform or instruct said clueless rider over multiple rides is just batty.

But as always...hors's for courses. :)

rugbysecondrow
03-08-2009, 02:30 PM
Unless they are your closest friends...don't offer mechanical assistance. I mean, you are there to ride not work, right? (Plus, if another mishap occurs they may decide that your labor caused the issue and end up suing you)
Solo mio ciclismo

If that is your attitude, then I would never want to ride with you. As a courtesy, I offer assistance to anybody I see roadside, even when I am by myself on a solo ride. I guess I would want somebody to help me if I had a problem. Some might call it karma, others might just say it is doing the right thing.

Bradford
03-08-2009, 03:28 PM
If that is your attitude, then I would never want to ride with you. As a courtesy, I offer assistance to anybody I see roadside, even when I am by myself on a solo ride. I guess I would want somebody to help me if I had a problem. Some might call it karma, others might just say it is doing the right thing.
I'm with rugbysecondrow.

I always stop and help, or at least offer assistance. Some of my most enjoyable rides have been ones where I came home with greasy hands from another person's bike. I don't understand how you could ride by someone in need or feel superior to them because of your ability to fix a bike. Strange indeed.

This attitude is one of the reasons I never ride with the first group on big rides. Too much silly attitude, not enough fun. I'll take the geeks over the hammerheads any day.

At one time, I knew almost nothing about bikes. Over the years, because people took the time to explain things to me, I became a decent shade tree mechanic. Try looking for the things you have in common with people instead of looking for ways to feel superior...you might find yourself enjoying rides a little more.

gdw
03-08-2009, 03:55 PM
"Unless they are your closest friends...don't offer mechanical assistance. I mean, you are there to ride not work, right? (Plus, if another mishap occurs they may decide that your labor caused the issue and end up suing you)"

You must live in North Boulder. :D

I hope your post wasn't serious but judging from the behavior of some, a small minority, of our local crowd it probably isn't. I always offer to help other cyclists and have found that most older experienced riders do the same.

BumbleBeeDave
03-08-2009, 04:35 PM
As a courtesy, I offer assistance to anybody I see roadside, even when I am by myself on a solo ride.

It takes only a moment to ask, even if I don't have the right tool I still have a cell phone and can at least call someone for them. Oh, AND it's just the right thing to do. Little thing called the Golden Rule, I believe . . .

BBD

palincss
03-08-2009, 05:09 PM
Is it normal for people to have this many mechanical issues? I take care of my own bike and always give it a look over the night before. Is this too much to ask?

No it is not normal. At least, not on any club rides I go on -- and I'm not talking about racers or fast riders doing serious training, either. For the most part, people are experienced, and although many don't do their own maintenance at least they know enough to bring the bikes to the shop from time to time.

I did have to help somebody -- a guy who works in a bike shop, no less: sales, not service -- recently with a brake that was dragging because it was misaligned, but almost without exception if help is required, the issue is a flat tire, and either it's someone who's never fixed a flat, or it's somebody who has tires that are so tight they can't get them back on the rim. But in general, that's rare.

Kevan
03-08-2009, 06:36 PM
they are predictable. Meaning reliable. Hey, sheet happens to all of us, but it's nice to keep it controlled.

CNY rider
03-08-2009, 07:25 PM
they are predictable. Meaning reliable. Hey, sheet happens to all of us, but it's nice to keep it controlled.


Kevan, as usual, has it nailed.
I'm entirely content to ride by myself. There are a small handful of people that actually make my rides more fun, and that's who I'm generally with if not solo. Big groups of people I don't know: just not my thing.

And I will always stop and try to help a lone rider who's down with a mechanical.

Dekonick
03-08-2009, 08:04 PM
Group rides are hard because they each have their own culture and norms. Some are more prone to beginners and others are tight knit and have been riding together for years. I attended a group ride once where the guys were nice and accommodating, but didn't obey traffic rules and blew through stoplights, snaked through traffic at intersections etc. Not my crowd.

There was LBS shop here in Maryland that had a huge Tuesday night supported ride that brought lots of beginners out. They canceled it due to beginner type issues (etiquette, mechanical etc.). Not certain if it is strictly a rider or an organizational issue, but I like the idea of newbies getting out and learning how to ride and tend to their equipment. These were typically new folks training for triathlons, not cyclist per se so that also impacts their level of knowledge and learning.

Cheers and enjoy the weather today!

Race Pace?

ksroadie
03-08-2009, 08:09 PM
...part of the enjoyment of riding is the social aspect. And part of the social aspect is helping people who need help. Hell, I've been there. I've felt helpless with a flat for the first couple of months I was riding and helpless with other things a lot longer. People helped me then. I help people now. They'll help someone else later. This is a bad thing?-Ray

...I offer assistance to anybody...Some might call it karma, others might just say it is doing the right thing.

+1 with a bullet

My LBS owner and riding buddy fumes about what he refers to as "cat whatever elitists," too cool to even acknowledge other riders along the road, let alone offer assistance. One time two such guys blew by us like we were invisible. We later encountered them stranded with a flat and out of tubes, and gave them a spare. When asked about the snub said they were training and too focused to say hello.:cool: My LBS friend figures that attitude discourages more fledgling cyclists (and indirectly damage to his business) than maniacal moms in volvo wagons and roads with no shoulders...

Encouraging newbies to our sport is good for all. Every broken down rider I ever stopped to help was very appreciative.

ti_boi
03-08-2009, 08:16 PM
The last group ride I went on was the 'advanced' group.

I got dropped big time. But they were cool dudes. :beer:

Dekonick
03-08-2009, 08:17 PM
Karma is a bitch.

I make it a point to help anyone in trouble - what is the harm? I have given away countless tubes over the years... and will continue to do so. Just today, the family was out for a stroll and my 3 year old son REALLY wanted to ride his bike (his first time - training wheels. All previous rides have been on the tricycle)

So we went out. I was careful - made sure all tires were pumped up (no easy feat as I have to use my air compressor because my hand pumps are all dedicated presta...) and the chain lubed. Helmets - check.

Well... on the ride, his seat post slid down - bike no longer fit him at all. I HAD NO TOOLS!!!

A chap came along on a early 80's Schwinn fixie and stopped to help. He loaned me an allen wrench... saved the day!

I am glad :banana: he was willing to stop and was not worried I might sue... :crap:

Fantastic day for me - 30 miles. Great ride. (despite fighting with my RD - cant seem to get it to not skip in the 17t, 19t, 21t - esp under effort - pissing me off! New cable perhaps or time for a new chain...)
Great walk with my wife and kids, and my Son had a blast on his bike (for about 15 minutes - I had to carry it the remainder. That beast weighs more than any other bike I own!!!)

:)

rustychain
03-08-2009, 08:23 PM
My kid is a psychology major. She tells me that people in groups tend to shift responsibility to others rather then step up.
I think the mean IQ level drops in proportion to the number of participants and is compounded when sporting equipment is involved. This weekend was the first warm weekend this year and I saw lots of dumb behavior from otherwise smart people. I prefer to keep my own company or just ride with a few people that I know can ride with at least the illusion of some sense

android
03-09-2009, 12:18 PM
You are there to ride, but for some of us, part of the enjoyment of riding is the social aspect. And part of the social aspect is helping people who need help. Hell, I've been there. I've felt helpless with a flat for the first couple of months I was riding and helpless with other things a lot longer. People helped me then. I help people now. They'll help someone else later. This is a bad thing?
-Ray

Wow, I didn't expect so many responses...

The ride mentioned is a "training ride" arranged by a local team, not the Sunday morning "social ride". So the expectation is that people will show up and be ready to train. For me, that means being fit enough to stay in a 18-20mph pack and have a bike that can go 60-80 miles without breaking. You don't have to pull if you don't want to and of course people will sometimes get flats. That's a normal part of riding and everybody will help and wait when that happens. And we always offer to help anybody we see out on the side of the road.

I'm talking about poor planning or maintenance, not freak mishaps here.

I rode on Sunday with the recreational crowd that was about 20 riders and we didn't have a single mechanical issue over 30 miles. There were a few slow riders, but the ride has a designated sweeper, so everyone gets back to the parking lot with an experienced escort.

William
03-09-2009, 12:23 PM
Well, I tend not to ride with people like this...

http://www.misterw.com/BM2002/bm208b.jpg


or this....



http://images.burningman.com/gallery/bucky.14710.jpg


It's just not worth the humiliation or third degree burns. :no:




William

Ray
03-09-2009, 12:24 PM
Wow, I didn't expect so many responses...

The ride mentioned is a "training ride" arranged by a local team, not the Sunday morning "social ride". So the expectation is that people will show up and be ready to train. For me, that means being fit enough to stay in a 18-20mph pack and have a bike that can go 60-80 miles without breaking. You don't have to pull if you don't want to and of course people will sometimes get flats. That's a normal part of riding and everybody will help and wait when that happens. And we always offer to help anybody we see out on the side of the road.

I'm talking about poor planning or maintenance, not freak mishaps here.

I rode on Sunday with the recreational crowd that was about 20 riders and we didn't have a single mechanical issue over 30 miles. There were a few slow riders, but the ride has a designated sweeper, so everyone gets back to the parking lot with an experienced escort.
Sorry to sound harsh - but that response wasn't to your original post, rather to another post (by someone else) that I thought WAS overly harsh. Your initial description didn't sound like a high level training ride to me, but yeah, expectations are somewhat different depending on the level of the ride. I tend to ride solo a lot and when I do group rides, I almost always back it down a level and do it for the social aspect of the ride. And on those, you can count on a few mechanicals every ride.

-Ray

vjp
03-09-2009, 12:39 PM
Well, I tend not to ride with people like this...

http://www.misterw.com/BM2002/bm208b.jpg


or this....



http://images.burningman.com/gallery/bucky.14710.jpg


It's just not worth the humiliation or third degree burns. :no:




William

NOW that is a solution for wheel suckers :D

bzbvh5
03-09-2009, 02:28 PM
Newbies should get a break. I offer some chain lube (I keep some in my truck) so the squeaks go away. I've fixed some of their flats. They need time to learn. Heck, I didn't carry a tool set for the first year I rode. Most learn quickly what needs to happen.

We've all offered some help to total strangers fixing flats willing to give a tube or some CO2. We don't even think twice about it.

People we ride regularly with don't get the same courtesy. I think some of us have someone in mind who commits these bike maintenance violations constantly. They never seem to learn because we keep bailing them out to keep the ride friendly.

If there is one of them, tell them to go to their favorite LBS, pay for a tune up and ask the salesman what else they need to keep their bike going on the road. If there are more, find a different group to ride with.

I love my group (8 to 20 people normally). Everyone is ready to ride at the appointed time (I was ready 5 minutes late once, won't do that again, it wasn't my fault honest, I felt the love) with bikes that are ready to roll. It's been almost a year. We've had five flats and one cracked rim.

mikki
03-09-2009, 03:03 PM
I'm with rugbysecondrow.

I always stop and help, or at least offer assistance. Some of my most enjoyable rides have been ones where I came home with greasy hands from another person's bike. I don't understand how you could ride by someone in need or feel superior to them because of your ability to fix a bike. Strange indeed.

This attitude is one of the reasons I never ride with the first group on big rides. Too much silly attitude, not enough fun. I'll take the geeks over the hammerheads any day.

At one time, I knew almost nothing about bikes. Over the years, because people took the time to explain things to me, I became a decent shade tree mechanic. Try looking for the things you have in common with people instead of looking for ways to feel superior...you might find yourself enjoying rides a little more.

I liked many posts here, particularly this one. My cycling education (apart from my hubby) has been from those in my club who took the time to give me valuable pointers at opportune times over the past few years and I too prefer riding with (fast) geeks over hammerheads with attitudes.

However, having said that, I was mowed down last Sept. by someone who although a member in our club, had not ridden since for some 16 months and was fatigued as a result of his out-of-condition body and stressed mind (learned this info after the crash). I broke five bones. My stupidity was riding too close to someone I didn't know and I haven't gone back to the group since. I miss them but with the law in California that absolves anyone in a group ride from liability (assumption of risk), I am very nervous about putting myself in the group again. Miss my buddies though so hope to push myself back out there this coming Saturday; though will certainly keep my distance!!

WadePatton
03-09-2009, 08:28 PM
Boya boy, have I got my work cut out for me.

Newly appointed (volunteered), first-ever, ATB ride director for our traditional roadie club. So our rides for the first season or two will be newbie/crossover encouraging. Official rides haven't begun yet, but I wrenched on 100% of the other riders' bikes yesterday. (Saturday _I_ made a trailside call to the LBS for some info on my _just now_ leaking air fork.) Thought nothing of it, but then this thread got me thinking. Heck, I've stopped in my motor vehicle to offer patches and CO2 to a walking rider. Will do it again.

I understand the bike shop canceling rides that apparently devolved into "get your bike tuned for free" rides. There is a balance.

I'll make note of how our rides progress.

Dekonick
03-10-2009, 03:56 AM
I sense oppoturnity here -

LBS sponsors rides. LBS offers $10 quick pre-ride tune-up's (nothing major - RD adjustment, perhaps quick true... etc)

everyone benefits.

:beer:

I am tired - nearing the end of a 24 hour shift...

hopefully it won't rain and I can sneak in a 30mile ride in the AM :banana:

Samster
03-10-2009, 06:35 AM
like comparing dating to an orgy. i don't ride with strangers cuz it can be strange and messy.

Ray
03-10-2009, 07:13 AM
like comparing dating to an orgy. i don't ride with strangers cuz it can be strange and messy.
I guess the only response to that is there are good orgies and bad orgies! :cool:

I tend to avoid group rides with people who are trying to be faster than they are and have no idea how to ride cooperatively in a group. They treat it like a race but with very little idea how a pack works together in a race. One of my clubs has "B" rides that are almost always like this. I did those for a year or so and hated 'em. More crashes than you could ever imagine and it was just because of overamped people with very little in the way of group riding skills and the skills they did have were null and void because they were so deep into tunnel vision. I never went down but I came close a couple of times, getting caught behind the wrong pile-up. Since then, I've backed off and, when I want to ride with a group, I ride with the B- group or sometimes even the C group. There's no pretense of speed or racing - its strictly social. There's a semblance of a group, but nobody's trying to paceline and people moving up and back in the group don't cause an immediate response and, hence, crashes. I tend to enjoy these rides a lot, although infrequently, and have never had a problem with 'em.

The "A" groups have generally really good pack riding skills (I've heard from others). I have pretty good group riding skills, but not the speed to ride with those groups. I'd be in so deep I'd be the one causing the crashes for lack of oxygen to the brain. That's on the off-chance I'd hang on long enough to cause any problems.

-Ray

palincss
03-10-2009, 07:46 AM
Since then, I've backed off and, when I want to ride with a group, I ride with the B- group or sometimes even the C group. There's no pretense of speed or racing - its strictly social. There's a semblance of a group, but nobody's trying to paceline and people moving up and back in the group don't cause an immediate response and, hence, crashes. I tend to enjoy these rides a lot, although infrequently, and have never had a problem with 'em.


Your experience is not unique. You've exactly described the club rides I go on as well. No pacelining, no racing, just fun. We too have the Hobbesian "war of each against all" group rides, in the next class up; and like you, I stay away from them.

Samster
03-10-2009, 08:25 AM
bad orgies :cool:

-Ray
oxymoron atmo.