Response to bike fit question

[BenSerotta]

Dear Mr. Goodman......

I have read your postings, the responses and conducted extensive discussions with staff members here with whom you have communicated over several months.

What I have found is somewhat different from the picture which you portray. We have made every effort to try to understand and accommodate your concerns. We produced a product which was accurately delivered to a requested specification and with which you were reportedly initially very happy.

Fit/position is dynamic. Some cyclists, though it is rare, maintain a similar level of fitness and positioning over many years, while others need annual minor changes over every season (of which I am an example). Still other cyclists, though again a relative few, require major changes over a fairly short period of time due to rapid changes from one or more of the following factors: change in fitness, flexibility, weight or other physiological changes that can be brought on by disease or trauma.

We have offered the services of our SICI National Fit Center to help evaluate what may or may not have changed since you first placed your order and more importantly what the best solution may be get you to the best position now. We have asked you to forward a video disc from your most recent fitting experience but we've not yet received that from you.

We stand behind our product and SICI stands behind its fitting programs. It is the most highly regarded program in the industry, it was the original fit school and continues to evolve offering the most advanced programs.

However, like any other educational program, we can only control the quality of our program, not the quality that our students deliver. Just like working with any trained contractor, whether an architect, physician or PT, the quality of the service can and will vary. For this reason, I always recommend obtaining referrals from satisfied customers, just as I do in selecting a professional service provider.

Serotta stands behind its work and we do have a history of doing whatever is reasonable to help ensure that our customers have received the quality of product and service that they've paid for. As mentioned previously, we are happy to continue to work with you directly to achieve an accurate and fair result with you. However, we require your direct and reasonable effort to achieve the same with us.

We are the only company that I know of which hosts a forum such as this-allowing open uncensored questioning and or criticism. I do this simply because it reflects my company's sincerity and openness in a manner that others are rightfully afraid to expose themselves to. This policy will not change for us, except in circumstances where our sincerity and integrity is not met by the forum participants.

So, Mr. Goodman, from this point forward, you are welcome to address your concerns directly with Pete, who will follow through with our staff until your circumstances have met a fair conclusion.

Thank you for your cooperation,
Sincerely,
Ben Serotta

[rnhood]

Nice response. Lets hope Mr. Goodman follows through so he will be a happy customer.

[malcolm]

Hard to find fault with that. I would say the ball is in his court.

[Pete Serotta]

Allen and I have exchange phone mails.... I will get him to send via "snail" mail, a copy of the video.

Additionally, Ben has offered to provide a new fit in Saratoga and adjustment of his bike, so we can get to the bottom of the problem.

April/May is a wonderful time in Saratoga and I there is a good chance I will also be able to be up there for some "hill" miles and wine with the gang.


Allen, before we use snail mail - try to send on pmckeon@bellsouth.net... for I also did not get your attachments at Serotta.com. Additionally Paraic and I looked, to insure it was not caught up in the spam filter,.....


I assure you we will get to the bottom of the fit.


Thanks Pete

[rwsaunders]

Ask and ye shall receive, Mr. Goodman.

[dave thompson]

I've reaffirmed why I like Serottas: "It's the company dammit!"

[Len J]

Look up class in the dictionary..........

it will probably have a link to this thread.

Len

[Climb01742]

Look up class in the dictionary..........

it will probably have a link to this thread.

Len

and look up "gentleman". you'll find ben's picture.

[false_Aest]

While I'm not stoked by the price-tag of Serottas, I am quite stoked by this type of response from Serotta to its customers.

I hope Serotta has this type of stance for all of its products (from $24k frns down to their "el-cheapo" bikes)


Cheers,
Tizzle (the Poor)

[palincss]

Look up class in the dictionary..........

it will probably have a link to this thread.

Len

+1. You betcha.

[dekindy]

I think we have all learned a lesson from this. Send them to Serotta Pete for help. We don't need to debate these situations. Ben Serotta and his staff will go out of their way to accomodate customers. It will be interesting to see how this transpires. There may be something wrong with the frame or a component. Or the customer's position may have changed.

I am just thankful that I have Bicycle Garage Indy, Frank Radaker keeping my position correct on the bike, the many good BGI mechanics maintaining my components, and the good folks at Serotta standing behind my bike with a warranty and crash protection. All I have to do is ride!

[Louis]

However messy these things seem to be when they are hashed out in the open for all to see and criticize (aside: I think it's unfortunate that some try to do this to hold the company's reputation hostage on the forum) I have to believe that in any objective measure in the long run Serotta comes out looking good. No reasonable person could follow this forum over time and doubt Serotta's commitment to producing bikes that meet their customer's highest expectations.

Louis

(who is bummed that he did not have a chance to chat with Ben during NAHMBS '09)

[SoCalSteve]

I think we have all learned a lesson from this. Send them to Serotta Pete for help. We don't need to debate these situations. Ben Serotta and his staff will go out of their way to accomodate customers. It will be interesting to see how this transpires. There may be something wrong with the frame or a component. Or the customer's position may have changed.

I am just thankful that I have Bicycle Garage Indy, Frank Radaker keeping my position correct on the bike, the many good BGI mechanics maintaining my components, and the good folks at Serotta standing behind my bike with a warranty and crash protection. All I have to do is ride!

+1!

I had an issue with my Ottrott. I contacted Pete and the next thing you know, Ben Serotta is on the phone with me...

We chatted at length about my Serotta, Kelly Bedford, his building 10 CSI's, his coming to SoCal on business and pleasure, etc, etc, etc...and he put my mind at ease over the Ottrott issue.

Next thing you know, there is a box at my front door from Serotta filled with all kinds of fun Serotta schwag..Socks, baseball cap, stickers, calender and the item that Ben said he was going to send me (bearings for my ST stays).

Did I get great customer service? Hell yeah!!

Thanks Pete (for making the call to Ben) and thanks Ben (for going out of your way to help me and send me nice schwag). :banana:

Steve

[Bruce K]

Whatever changes Serotta as a company may have gone through over the years, one thing remains the same....

They are wholly devoted to producing the best product and the best customer service in the cycling world.

And Ben and all his employees "get it".

Period.

It's why I own the bikes I own.

BK

[Elefantino]

This is why I am proud to be a Serotta owner. Yes, the bikes are great, and I feel great when I'm on mine, but how cool is it to know that the name on the downtube means something special?

Thanks, Ben, for allowing us to be part of your "family."

Mike

PS: How come Mr. Brill GETS ALL THE SCHWAG?!?!

[Ahneida Ride]

We are the only company that I know of which hosts a forum such as this-allowing open uncensored questioning and or criticism. I do this simply because it reflects my company's sincerity and openness in a manner that others are rightfully afraid to expose themselves to. This policy will not change for us, except in circumstances where our sincerity and integrity is not met by the forum participants.


This takes guts. Most other corporations would have censored this by now.

When I was out looking for a frame/fork, Everyone raved about the
"competition". This spooked me. No-one is perfect. After about
6 months of lurking here, I concluded that the vast majority are very
satisfied with Serotta. Hence I made the leap and I never looked back.
Best purchase I ever made.

Serotta and every other bike company .... is between a rock and a hard
place.

Option 1 is to only do fittings at the factory and/or use a very limited #
of fitters throughout the country. Sales plummet.

Option 2 is to establish a fitting program and train LBS staff how to fit
thus increasing profitability and performance for all, but also subjecting
any emerging bike company to increase risk.

------

Working with a small builder may mitigate some risk, but does not eliminate
it either.

[kbone]

Serotta = HOT = Honest, Open, and Transparent

[Ozz]

Dear Ben:

I agree with Len, first class all the way!

Tailwinds,

[paczki]

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[rcnute]

That Ben guy writes real good, too.

[avalonracing]

It isn't very likely that you would get a response like that on a public forum from many other bicycle companies.

This forum is truly unique... and Ben, this forum helps sell bikes too. I know it for a fact.
Thanks!

[Ken Robb]

I made my living my whole life except time in the Army as a salesman. The best training I ever had taught us that settling complaints to the customer's satisfaction was the BEST sales technique/program by far. Once they KNOW you will back them 100% it's almost impossible for a competitor to win their business. Good job Ben. I'd hire you if I was still a sales manager.

[don compton]

Dear Mr. Goodman......

I have read your postings, the responses and conducted extensive discussions with staff members here with whom you have communicated over several months.

What I have found is somewhat different from the picture which you portray. We have made every effort to try to understand and accommodate your concerns. We produced a product which was accurately delivered to a requested specification and with which you were reportedly initially very happy.

Fit/position is dynamic. Some cyclists, though it is rare, maintain a similar level of fitness and positioning over many years, while others need annual minor changes over every season (of which I am an example). Still other cyclists, though again a relative few, require major changes over a fairly short period of time due to rapid changes from one or more of the following factors: change in fitness, flexibility, weight or other physiological changes that can be brought on by disease or trauma.

We have offered the services of our SICI National Fit Center to help evaluate what may or may not have changed since you first placed your order and more importantly what the best solution may be get you to the best position now. We have asked you to forward a video disc from your most recent fitting experience but we've not yet received that from you.

We stand behind our product and SICI stands behind its fitting programs. It is the most highly regarded program in the industry, it was the original fit school and continues to evolve offering the most advanced programs.

However, like any other educational program, we can only control the quality of our program, not the quality that our students deliver. Just like working with any trained contractor, whether an architect, physician or PT, the quality of the service can and will vary. For this reason, I always recommend obtaining referrals from satisfied customers, just as I do in selecting a professional service provider.

Serotta stands behind its work and we do have a history of doing whatever is reasonable to help ensure that our customers have received the quality of product and service that they've paid for. As mentioned previously, we are happy to continue to work with you directly to achieve an accurate and fair result with you. However, we require your direct and reasonable effort to achieve the same with us.

We are the only company that I know of which hosts a forum such as this-allowing open uncensored questioning and or criticism. I do this simply because it reflects my company's sincerity and openness in a manner that others are rightfully afraid to expose themselves to. This policy will not change for us, except in circumstances where our sincerity and integrity is not met by the forum participants.

So, Mr. Goodman, from this point forward, you are welcome to address your concerns directly with Pete, who will follow through with our staff until your circumstances have met a fair conclusion.

Thank you for your cooperation,
Sincerely,
Ben Serotta
your reponse truly reminds we( cycling communty) about how committed that your company is in delivering a wonderful product. keep doing what you doing!
sincerely, don c.( a former serotta owner and a future owner)

[Sandy]

Ben's response is as articulate, gracious, accomodating, genuine, sincere,and open as one could possibly produce. Truly a gem of a response.


Sandy

[Ray]

Yeah, total class. To the extent that using so many fitters from so many shops is a weakness, this kind of remarkable customer service is a huge plus that would mitigate any of my concerns if I ever buy another road bike. I'm not an owner, but I'm proud to hang out here (and thankful for the opportunity).

-Ray

[Climb01742]

this is one more example of why this forum, and its openness, is a huge net plus for serotta. let it all hang out. because in the end, class rises to the top.

in the end, all each of us wants is to be treated right. to be valued as a customer. ben and serotta do this. whatever other flies in the ointment there may be, this final, ultimate customer service is serotta's ace in the hole. well played.

[Ti Designs]

Fit/position is dynamic. Some cyclists, though it is rare, maintain a similar level of fitness and positioning over many years, while others need annual minor changes over every season (of which I am an example). Still other cyclists, though again a relative few, require major changes over a fairly short period of time due to rapid changes from one or more of the following factors: change in fitness, flexibility, weight or other physiological changes that can be brought on by disease or trauma.


When I say something like that (in a far more blunt fashion) I get flamed from all directions. When Ben says it, it's pure class...

So, now that we know that fit is dynamic (so says Ben), how can any fitter or fit studio clain to put a rider in the "perfect position" in a couple of hours, and then build a custom frame for that fit, assuming it's going to change?

[soulspinner]

This thread leads to trust-which is needed when selling any product. Well done Mr Serotta, and with tact. Hope ya dont get into politics and stop building bikes.. :beer:

[bhungerford]

good point Ti...i think you'd probaably agree our fits we do in a few hours are a starting point, and will hopefully give said cyclist(or rider :p ) a frame that will last for quite awhile, but at some point they will have to get a new frame, and in between those frames, we need to do everything we can to get them back in each year to tweak their fit...at least thats what i think. a fit should end in a long relationship that is constantly evolving.

but this forum rocks for all that was said already :beer:

[palincss]

good point Ti...i think you'd probaably agree our fits we do in a few hours are a starting point, and will hopefully give said cyclist(or rider :p ) a frame that will last for quite awhile, but at some point they will have to get a new frame, and in between those frames, we need to do everything we can to get them back in each year to tweak their fit...at least thats what i think. a fit should end in a long relationship that is constantly evolving.

but this forum rocks for all that was said already :beer:

Yes, bodies evolve. 10 years age and a bit of osteoarthritis can really mess up your fit. In my case, I needed to raise the bars almost 5".

But, barring accidents your arms and legs aren't going to change length greatly over time, so the changes due to aging generally are going to be within a relatively narrow range. For most of us, those changes will fit within the range that standard frames can accommodate with changes in bars, stem and seat position. So if you start out with a frame that fits spot on within the center of that range of adjustment (and if it's a custom frame, why shouldn't you?) then there's a reasonable chance those changes can be accommodated without having to replace the frame.

Of course, cut fork steerers and stems that can't be raised do complicate the picture; but forks are not frames, and forks can be replaced if necessary.

And, of course, tastes and needs change over time, too; and bikes are pretty specialized. The road racing frame that might be perfect for fast club rides in pace lines doesn't usually make a good platform for self-supported tours or off-road rambles.

[victoryfactory]

Only a company owner who is secure in his own product's design and value
can respond to a complaint in public in that fashion.

As a small company owner myself, I know that being in the position to be able
to make those kind of responses when needed is the result of many years of
taking care of business the right way, and building up a s-load of good karma.
And it gives you a warm feeling too, so don't feel sorry for Ben. It is it's
own reward.

I am also proud to wear the Serotta logo on my bike. It means something. Something
that the average person may not recognize, but those who know do....
(and I generally rip all logos off my stuff when practical)

VF

[William]

Class. :beer:



William

[thwart]

Class. In a word.

Who else would foot the bill for a Forum with so many posts that frequently support competing products... ?

[MarleyMon]

So, now that we know that fit is dynamic ..., how can any fitter or fit studio claim to put a rider in the "perfect position" in a couple of hours, and then build a custom frame for that fit, assuming it's going to change?
I hear you, coach. I would no more pull out my 2 year old fit sheet and send it to a builder I just met at NAHBS, than I would sign off on a build for a 5k frame after a 2 hour session. My fitter was upfront about a Serotta fit being a starting point, a base measure, and valid for that point in time. Since I wasn't going custom at that time, he gave me a lot of of possibilities and encouraged me to test ride and come back to him about those experiences.
At NAHBS this weekend I really looked for a builder to start a relationship with regarding a new bike build. I would surely want to ride with them, and not just once, before ponying up. The hunt is the fun for me.

I hope this particular matter is solved soon and to everyone's satisfaction.

[Samster]

.

[deechee]

I think we have all learned a lesson from this. Send them to Serotta Pete for help.

If this is the answer, why not put his email address on the "Contact Serotta" page?

For the average consumer, are we saying first line support is "info@serotta.com", and if that isn't adequate, the backdoor level 2 support is emailing Pete? If you don't mind my asking, what *is* Pete's job title? Ombudsman?

I understand that a customer's first line of support should be their dealer, but I think there are too many examples on this forum where people deal with Serotta directly. There's a discrepancy between the service the average customer can leverage, versus the many (on this forum) with personal relations with employees. I think a public and even policy for all would help clarify a lot of these debates on this forum about whether Serotta has excellent service or not.

[Pete Serotta]

That is my title......YEP!

A good question was brought up - why not have a name of Site instead of just "info". Like most companies, there are personal changes and thus the name would change. That is why we use "info" Info is Serotta_Dave... He then sends notes to me (for FORUM) or gets Paraic, Steve, and others involved.

The instances where I get involved are usually the International where we do not have a dealer or where a dealer is not close to the owner. As a last resort, someone might contact me for they know me. The local dealers handle 99.999% of the activity. Serotta_DAVE and team handle the .001% exceptions that that do not have a dealer solution. I get involved in the .000000001% ones.


Lets just look at some figures to support what I am saying....Lets say 2000 frames/year are sold (i do not know the exact ##). they add 5 years of sales - so that would be 10000 frames and lets say 20% of those resale so that would equal 12000 owners of Serottas over 5 years..... Overt the past three years, if I have been involved in 20 assists that would be alot. (that is one thousand of a percent over 3 years.) To me that shows very good customer support on SEROTTA and the SEROTTA dealer network...

ALso keep in mind that many of my "involves" are finding old decals or parts for our friends across the pond or in far away US places/

Another item...how many Mfts will try to provide specs on used bikes? That takes time and research but "a SEROTTA frame is ALWAYSa member of the family"

Yes, I am biased but when my friends who work very hard at having happy customers are "tagged" with less than excellent service, I get my "irish" up.

Every Serotta owner or potential owner is entitled to EXCELLENT service.... Many on the forum can support what I am saying for they have seen BEN do anything that is close to reasonable in order to put that smile on the rider!!! :D


If this is the answer, why not put his email address on the "Contact Serotta" page?

For the average consumer, are we saying first line support is "info@serotta.com", and if that isn't adequate, the backdoor level 2 support is emailing Pete? If you don't mind my asking, what *is* Pete's job title? Ombudsman?

I understand that a customer's first line of support should be their dealer, but I think there are too many examples on this forum where people deal with Serotta directly. There's a discrepancy between the service the average customer can leverage, versus the many (on this forum) with personal relations with employees. I think a public and even policy for all would help clarify a lot of these debates on this forum about whether Serotta has excellent service or not.

[Ahneida Ride]

That is my title......YEP!

Lets just look at some figures to support what I am saying....Lets say 2000 frames/year are sold (i do not know the exact ##). they add 5 years of sales - so that would be 10000 frames and lets say 20% of those resale so that would equal 12000 owners of Serottas over 5 years..... Overt the past three years, if I have been involved in 20 assists that would be alot. (that is one thousand of a percent over 3 years.) To me that shows very good customer support on SEROTTA and the SEROTTA dealer network...



Yea ... Oz been hanging here since the pre-Kahuna days ...
That's well over 12,00 bikes. Complaints are few and far in between.
I can only conclude that Serotta is doing something right. Given the
openness of this Phorum and it's members

[djg]

If this is the answer, why not put his email address on the "Contact Serotta" page?

For the average consumer, are we saying first line support is "info@serotta.com", and if that isn't adequate, the backdoor level 2 support is emailing Pete? If you don't mind my asking, what *is* Pete's job title? Ombudsman?

I understand that a customer's first line of support should be their dealer, but I think there are too many examples on this forum where people deal with Serotta directly. There's a discrepancy between the service the average customer can leverage, versus the many (on this forum) with personal relations with employees. I think a public and even policy for all would help clarify a lot of these debates on this forum about whether Serotta has excellent service or not.

Well, what does this mean exactly? Most of us don't actually have complaints about our bikes. Those who have issues may get them resolved through their dealers. Sometimes something goes wrong and the ordinary channels don't work, and then somebody may turn to the company directly. I actually had an issue with a fork I received directly from Serotta and I was able to resolve that issue to my satisfaction directly, with a couple of e-mails. Please don't ask me to rehash the particulars because I do not have a complaint -- there was a little bump in the road in one transaction and they smoothed things over in exactly the way I hoped and it's all good. In this case, we seem to have an unusual situation. A customer complains that he had a poor -- inappropriately poor -- design solution provided by a shop that went out of business. He went here and there and, eventually, more than a year after acquiring the bike, contacted Serotta directly, and did not immediately receive a happy solution to his problem. But according to Ben -- and I really have to believe him here -- Serotta has been attempting to get more information from the customer so that they can work something out. I really cannot pretend to have any inside information on all the ins-and-outs of this transaction, and I really hope this does work out for all involved. I'm not saying that this post represents the unique unhappy customer. But why would we imagine that there's an issue so general here that it requires an "even" policy statement from Serotta?

[deechee]

Every Serotta owner or potential owner is entitled to EXCELLENT service.... Many on the forum can support what I am saying for they have seen BEN do anything that is close to reasonable in order to put that smile on the rider!!! :D

Thanks Pete.
I suppose I had a skewed view of the proportion of cases where you got involved since I've been reading many posts on this forum for some time now.

As you mention you do make special cases for those of us who might not be able to deal with the dealer route. I think your offer to help should be more public than to individuals who have to read the forum. That's all.

[deechee]

But why would we imagine that there's an issue so general here that it requires an "even" policy statement from Serotta?

If you look at the responses on the original thread, you'll see many posts telling the OP to contact name@serotta.com. Many also state having successful interactions with soandso@ serotta. Sounds to me like people have inroads beyond the "info@serotta.com" which is the contact information listed on the webpage. If this is information to be shared as freely on the forum, why not on the webpage for all interested parties to read? Maybe the OP might not have opened this thread if he had this information available to him first? Maybe if more people had the contacts people on the forum do, there would be even more people touting the virtues of Serotta?

And fyi, I've had two dealings with Serotta go slightly sour. They were both resolved in the end. With your story and the other post, sounds like Serotta could improve their service a little. Everyone has room for improvement.

If I didn't believe in Serotta, I wouldn't have just bought my third Serotta (CXII).

[bhungerford]

when i got my CDA, it was damaged, and it wasn't really clear whether it was from how it was packaged or just shipping damage....anyways, called my dealer as soon as i found out (it wasn't readily apparent until trying to install the rear wheel)...shipped it back the next day, and other than a little extra waiting, the issue was resolved to more than my satisfaction with probably a little profit taken off from both the dealer and Serotta for the repair.

Anyways, just seems like all the experiences that i've had with Serotta or their dealers have been very positive. Seems like they all try and stand by their products and treat their clients with respect and bend over backwards when necassary to fix any little issue. like it was said before "class" sums it up best

oh, and the CDA is one heck of a bike!

[rugbysecondrow]

Thanks for the open letter.

I think what it highlights to me is that Serotta does their best for there not to be problems, but if there are, they stand behind the customer to resolve the issue. As a customer, that is all we reasonably ask for. The expectation of perfection 100% of the time is unrealistic, but the expectation of good service 100% is very reasonable. That is what Mr. Serotta highlights in his open letter to the forum and that is what Serotta Pete has offered multiple times.

Cheers

[Ti Designs]

good point Ti...i think you'd probaably agree our fits we do in a few hours are a starting point, and will hopefully give said cyclist(or rider :p ) a frame that will last for quite awhile, but at some point they will have to get a new frame, and in between those frames, we need to do everything we can to get them back in each year to tweak their fit...at least thats what i think. a fit should end in a long relationship that is constantly evolving.


To quote Serotta Andrew, we get 'em in the ball park. The Serotta fit school (at least the ones I went to) teaches limitations of the human body, which is the basis for a non damaging fit. So far we have in the ballpark and safe - a very good start. What a fit can't cover in two hours is changes over time or dynamics of pedalling.

To use myself as an example, I was fit at the Serotta school by students, critiqued by the whole class under the supervision of the Serotta fitting staff. One of the numbers is over 10cm from where my own bike is set up. That's not really in the ball park. My bike position is based on years of small changes, riding time to adapt and testing. It took me a number of years before I came to my position on the bike. Just to be fair, I planned to give the Serotta position a two week test. After a week I couldn't ride at all...

So, it becomes a question of who really needs a custom and when it's safe to order one. Designing with a clean sheet of paper is the domain of those who don't find themselves anywhere near the hump on the bell curve. It's an experiment, but if nothing else is going to work it's the only way. I've sold a number of custom bikes to clients who don't fit on anything stock. The ones I continue to work with I've made changes in position over time. I can proudly say I got 0.0% perfect... As for those who can fit on stock geometry for a first bike, why go custom?

I have nothing against custom bikes - I ride a custom Serotta myself. But I must point out one other factor of the custom vs. stock bike argument - value. Building a custom frame for someone who has a known, stable position has value - comfort over hours and seasons of riding. Building a custom bike for someone new to the sport who could fit on a stock geometry offers little value, as the post that started this clearly showed.

[Peter P.]

Who is this guy who has only five posts and writes like he owns the place?!

;-)

[capybaras]

When I say something like that (in a far more blunt fashion) I get flamed from all directions. When Ben says it, it's pure class...


Well, like with anything one must consider the source. :fight: :banana:

[soulspinner]

Who is this guy who has only five posts and writes like he owns the place?!

;-)

:)

[Pete Serotta]

Status Update:

I have talked to the gentleman in Atlanta. We have offered him an evaluation in Saratoga with Paraic. Since this is quite a distance, he has decided to have a dealer do a "dartfish" on the bike with him on it. Once Paraic receives this via CD (mail) he will give him a call and discuss some recommendations.


If he comes up to Saratoga, and Ben is in town. a ride and lunch will also be the order of the day.... :bike:

[palincss]

What is a "dartfish"?

[happycampyer]

Dartfish is really elaborate video-analysis software.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDxbcf8DQ1s

http://www.dartfish.com/en/media-gallery/videos/index.htm

Check out "stro motion" and "tracking" in the "by technology" drop-down.

[djg]

If you look at the responses on the original thread, you'll see many posts telling the OP to contact name@serotta.com. Many also state having successful interactions with soandso@ serotta. Sounds to me like people have inroads beyond the "info@serotta.com" which is the contact information listed on the webpage. If this is information to be shared as freely on the forum, why not on the webpage for all interested parties to read? Maybe the OP might not have opened this thread if he had this information available to him first? Maybe if more people had the contacts people on the forum do, there would be even more people touting the virtues of Serotta?

And fyi, I've had two dealings with Serotta go slightly sour. They were both resolved in the end. With your story and the other post, sounds like Serotta could improve their service a little. Everyone has room for improvement.

If I didn't believe in Serotta, I wouldn't have just bought my third Serotta (CXII).

Sorry if I seemed antagonistic. You're under the impression that problems are not infrequent; I'm under the impression that they're less common. But neither of us really knows the frequency of issues or the time it takes to resolve most of the ones that occur. It seems that we're both, in the end, happy customers.

I never had any frame design issues anyway -- my Serottas are stock, and work just as I'd hoped.

[Smiley]

Certainly our own Pete as in Serotta Pete right here. Pete has contacts nobody else has and he gets it done :)

[Jeff N.]

In a word.

Who else would foot the bill for a Forum with so many posts that frequently support competing products... ?
ARTICULATE would be another word. And PRECISE! Jeff N.