Funny how Titanium fever has died

[Smiley]

Is it because of Carbone or is it due to the new Steels being so much lighter and livelier or is it just like your parents old Cadillac. Your thoughts please.

[92degrees]

I just bought custom Ti. I like the ride. I'm not interested in fashion or trends.

[slowgoing]

I like titanium more than ever and my next frame will be titanium.

[Ahneida Ride]

I am still a TItanic guy, but I can attest that steel is for real.

Steel will always be the reference point, the gold standard.

[RPS]

They can last nearly forever. Maybe owners that bought them are so happy they don’t need to replace them. ;)

[1centaur]

Why was Ti popular in the first place: lighter than steel, won't corrode, new, hard to work with, theoretically a different ride quality.

Now: Not necessarily lighter, paint looks better, the NAHBS ethos boosts steel, not new, carbon rides even more differently, still on the expensive side vs. steel.

Squeezed into niche appreciation.

[William]

I am still a TItanic guy, but I can attest that steel is for real.

Steel will always be the reference point, the gold standard.


That Legend is buttery smooth....but not stiff enough for me. :)





William

[CaliFly]

I just picked up a CdA and looooooove it. But I can't find it in myself to sell my Concours. Yes...steel is real...but Ti is a great buy!

:beer:
CF

[Viper]

I am still a TItanic guy, but I can attest that steel is for real.

Steel will always be the reference point, the gold standard.


You tell the man, Blue Horseshoe loves Anacot Steel.

http://www.entertonement.com/collections/1262/Wall-Street

:beer:

[GuyGadois]

Dare I say I love my Ti bike as much or more than my steel or carbon bikes. I REALLY love how Ti is virtually indestructible. I can ride it in the rain or mud and throw it in the car and not worry about scratches. Can you do that with carbon?

-GG-

[CNY rider]

I have a Ti Legend that is wonderful.
I just got a ridiculous good deal on a used cross version of the same across the hall.
It definitely seems Ti has lost some of its panache.

The big question, that probably drives Ben and other Ti masters crazy: Is this a cyclical thing that will turn around, or a secular change that means Ti just fades away with time?

[Ozz]

discussed here several years ago:

"Ti Obsolete?" (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=11548&highlight=titanium)

I figure it is just a material and it has appropriate applications.....like my Legend. :beer:

[Keith A]

I just got a ridiculous good deal on a used cross version of the same across the hall.So you are the new owner of this great looking frameset :)
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/7200/p1020111jg8.jpg

[Climb01742]

my new spectrum is making a believer of me.

carbon and new steels have more top of mind awareness these days. ti seems a bit forgotten. but if you ride a ti bike from someone who really knows the material, zowwie wowwie. it's good.

[saab2000]

I'm keeping this one for a while because Merckx so knows how to design a bike. But I'd love to try the exact same design by a 'premium' builder. Litespeed did a good job, but this is still a budget frameset. But it fits and handles so well! It's staying for now.

I still like the industrial look of Ti. I just haven't fallen for the ride of it.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3132/3250295195_611d9949c7_b.jpg

[Spicoli]

:banana:

[dekindy]

Dare I say I love my Ti bike as much or more than my steel or carbon bikes. I REALLY love how Ti is virtually indestructible. I can ride it in the rain or mud and throw it in the car and not worry about scratches. Can you do that with carbon?

-GG-

I got tired of scratches and chips. I love my bare TI Legend.

[William]

Dare I say I love my Ti bike as much or more than my steel or carbon bikes. I REALLY love how Ti is virtually indestructible. I can ride it in the rain or mud and throw it in the car and not worry about scratches. Can you do that with carbon?

-GG-


Indestructable. Doesn't rust. Lasts forever. Last bike you'll ever need....Doh! :crap:

If the industry moved to Ti only, how long until they're begging you to buy a new bike? It'll be just like that gum commercial to get you off your old ride...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojgi16des-U



William ;)

Look over here!! :banana: Steel is real again! Plastic is fantastic! :banana:

[katematt]

Look over here!! :banana: Steel is real again! Plastic is fantastic! :banana:

And Aluminum's foolinum

[OldDog]

my new spectrum is making a believer of me.

carbon and new steels have more top of mind awareness these days. ti seems a bit forgotten. but if you ride a ti bike from someone who really knows the material, zowwie wowwie. it's good.


My 1995 Specturm Ti is running strong. The clearcoat is a bit tattered and could use a repaint. If so, orange. I'm on the 2nd round of Campy parts. Got my $ worth from this frame...zowwie wowwie!

[tuscanyswe]

I cant say enough good things about TI and i dont like carbons. Still building my first modern steel so vertict still out for me on that one.

But i c newish manufacturers having a TI model for 09. Who decided the fever died? I still c alot of fever and ppl talking bout getting a ti bikes around here (sweden). Is it just the guys in here (forum) who allrdy had 3 ti bikes that feels the fever is dead? Or am i just clueless?

[false_Aest]

If I can ever afford a new frame I will get a Ti frame.

I don't know who will make it. But whoever it is will make it gnar-gnar.

[SoCalSteve]

I love my Moots Compact -SL and my Serotta Hors Categorie...

Both great bikes!

Just sayin'

Steve

[Mshue]

I have a couple of buddies who ride Ti. They'll talk about other materials as if there's a chance they would consider steel or carbon, but I don't believe 'em. Seems like those who ride Ti absolutely LOVE it.

Me, I've got a steel Zank that's fantastic, but I'd love to try a Moots someday.

[93legendti]

I'm keeping my Legend and Spectrum Ti. They both get ridden as much as my Ottrott and JKS Terraplane.

[R2D2]

Is it because of Carbone or is it due to the new Steels being so much lighter and livelier or is it just like your parents old Cadillac. Your thoughts please.

Ti got really expensive and in short supply the last couple years.

[Johny]

I have a Ti Legend that is wonderful.
I just got a ridiculous good deal on a used cross version of the same across the hall.
It definitely seems Ti has lost some of its panache.

The big question, that probably drives Ben and other Ti masters crazy: Is this a cyclical thing that will turn around, or a secular change that means Ti just fades away with time?

Congrats Eric! That's a really HOT bike. Fender and rack mounts...so nice. You know I didn't pull the trigger 'cause I already have a moots. :)

I still have 5 titanium bikes: legend, concours, moots cross, colnago ct-1, and an unbuilt merlin (pre-litespeed). Titanium makes a lot of sense especially when you ride your bikes hard in harsh environments (and don't wanna spend too much time cleaning the bikes).

[Smiley]

Ti got really expensive and in short supply the last couple years.


Ti has gotten really expensive and Steel has looked pretty dam good as compared to it. Also you can't beat Carbone from any price point. Most people don't know good or bad carbone as its al carbone. Stainless steel you'd need to ask Jack Brunk about that one :)

[alancw3]

it's all about carbon. the next "latest and greatest". personally i don't buy it for the non-professional racer who isn't given bikes to race with limited a life cycle. do i see steel, stainless steel or titanium making a comeback? no! carbon is so much easier to work with for the bike manufacturer's. so they will continue to push it.

[jhcakilmer]

Heck, when I actually get out of school and get a job my second custom frame will be Ti.....I love the stuff!!!

[Lifelover]

Is it because of Carbone or is it due to the new Steels being so much lighter and livelier or is it just like your parents old Cadillac. Your thoughts please.


The VAST majority of buyers are your average cyclist who ride bikes and don't hang out talking about bikes on the internet. Clearly carbon in the material of the day for them.

The custom builders like steel because from a construction standpoint, it's more diverse, maybe easier to work with and is cheaper. Uppity forum folks like us admire (rightfully so) the builders and crave what they make. We are a very, very small segment of the market.

I think there is a mid section of the market that still longs for Ti.

I would love to see real numbers, but I suspect that if you only consider $1200 plus frames, Ti out steels steel 3 to 1.

[amator]

Is it because of Carbone or is it due to the new Steels being so much lighter and livelier or is it just like your parents old Cadillac. Your thoughts please.

Concours Ti and its an exceptional ride at ANY time rain or shine.

Lets wait for that elusive Responsorium to replace it

Normal Steel is still great stuff tho...

[Ray]

my new spectrum is making a believer of me.

carbon and new steels have more top of mind awareness these days. ti seems a bit forgotten. but if you ride a ti bike from someone who really knows the material, zowwie wowwie. it's good.
Congratulations Climb - didn't realize you'd gotten a Spectrum. I personally have been very happy with steel and ti and imagine I could be happy with carbon or alu, but haven't spent any real time on either (although I did have a carbon Trek mtb for about a year). But its all about the fit and the design. My main ti Spectrum blows away any other bike I've owned. I don't think its because its ti - I think its because of Tom's fit and design. I've had other ti bikes that I liked but didn't love and steel bikes that I dug every bit as much. But I never had a custom designed and fit by a master before. Makes all the difference.

I'll third the motion - zowwie wowwie!

-Ray

[avalonracing]

I used to have a Ti Serotta that I sold to a friend. He sold it to another friend. I rode it last spring and remembered what I was missing. I had a case of Ti Fever.

Since then I bought a Merlin CR Works and a Seven Sola MTB. My fever is now under control.

[JBone]

Although I'm getting a new CF, I love my custom Holland Ti! :) Will probably do steel next.

[bhungerford]

I've been considering one, what I'd like is a Ti road bike with full fenders at a reasonable price. I've been having fun on my Surly Cross Check with full fenders this winter, but wouldn't mind having something that i know can't rust, is lighter, and something with tires in the 700x28 range. I currently have 700x32 on the Surly as it's primarly a commuter and want something a bit 'cushy' for that job.

basically want a winter bike i can ride without worrying abuot it at all, and will have fenders to keep me a bit dryer.

so my very short list so far is: Moots :p

[Climb01742]

My main ti Spectrum blows away any other bike I've owned. I don't think its because its ti - I think its because of Tom's fit and design.

agree wholeheartedly. tom just flat out nailed the ride characteristics i asked him for. what seems to create cycling magic is a builder who really knows how to use a particular material: tom knows ti. folks like dario, richie, dave and kelly know steel. nic c knows carbon. there's nothing magical about material, but knowledge is pretty darn magical.

[Keith A]

there's nothing magical about material, but knowledge is pretty darn magical.+100

[Blue Jays]

Love my titanium without reservation. It's light, strong, stiff, and attractive. Mine is clearcoated, so it's a breeze to clean. Titanium fever hasn't diminished.

[Ray]

agree wholeheartedly. tom just flat out nailed the ride characteristics i asked him for. what seems to create cycling magic is a builder who really knows how to use a particular material: tom knows ti. folks like dario, richie, dave and kelly know steel. nic c knows carbon. there's nothing magical about material, but knowledge is pretty darn magical.
I think Tom knows steel pretty well too FWIW. I know a number of people around here who have steel Spectrums and are just as enamored as I am with the ti. If I had any desire or room in my basement or budget for ANOTHER nice frame, it'd probably be a steel either from Tom or Dave Kirk. But I have no such problems!

-Ray

[fiamme red]

As technology improved and high-quality carbon fiber frames became cheaper and cheaper to make, titanium frames diappeared from the pro peloton, and those people who like to ride what the pros ride now are on carbon.

[saab2000]

Ti was a fad among pros because at first it was lighter than the available steel. But today's modern steels are just as light as Ti was then. And carbon has trumped both for pro usage.

Ti will not be coming back to the pro peloton. Neither will steel.

[fiamme red]

Ti will not be coming back to the pro peloton. Neither will steel.Is aluminum disappearing from the peloton too? I think it is.

http://www.roadbikeaction.com/fly.aspx?layout=content&taxid=67&cid=1063

[avalonracing]

Pros bikes are disposable. They don't pay for them, they thrash them for a season and then pass them along. After my first year of amateur racing and seeing how the bikes get thrashed I decided that I would never buy a bike from a racer.

At the same time I used a Klein for a few seasons of hard racing and it is still going strong.

[pdbrye]

Ti I lust for:

Spectrum
Hampco Strada Bianco

Both are on my short list :)

[Peter P.]

Titanium was eclipsed by carbon because they can invent new, annual "excuses" (read: tube shapes and carbon layups) with carbon then hand off the product to marketing to dream up some ad copy to explain why you should throw away last year's frame for this year's revolutionary improvement.

The weight savings of carbon is meaningless and titanium offers much better survivability/durability. And all this is coming from someone who isn't interested in riding titanium.

[abqhudson]

Have owned carbon, steel, aluminum and combos - for me, my Serotta Ti with carbon seat stays rides the best of them all.

[zap]

Not really. I never rode a ti bike that I liked. All were too soft in the rear.

Plus ti breaks faster than you can say heart break. Too many failures among my friends.

Next purchase........something in carbon or a Pina Dogma (magnesium).

PS-light light steel is best left for the ladies.

[Blue Jays]

"...Plus ti breaks faster than you can say heart break. Too many failures among my friends..."What brands were your friends riding? Teledyne Titans?

[znfdl]

I sold my first Ti frame after riding it 120K miles.

My second Spectrum Ti is nicer than the first and it is my first choice. Incredible ride and comfortable for endless miles.

My second choice is my Vanilla.

No plastic bikes in this household.

[chuckroast]

I have noticed that bikes seem to come and go from my garage. But the one that doesn't leave, and won't leave, is my Serotta Ti. Like a great marriage, I plan to grow old(er) with it.

[Dekonick]

A master can make a material do what they will...

A Chinese factory can make carbon bikes at price point that it doesn't matter... plastic wins.

I prefer Ti, but love steel too.

:beer:

Personally I will buy the master, not the material. I will listen to the master, and contribute as appropriate.

For now, that leaves steel, or a spectrum ti. I already have 2 legends (DKS)

[Dazza]

Good Grief

[caleb]

Ti will not be coming back to the pro peloton. Neither will steel.

I think ti's absence in the pro peloton has more to do with cost of manufacture and the lack of sponsors willing to provide teams with ti bikes than it does with the suitability of the material or even pros' desire to ride carbon.

For example, when Basso was serving his suspension he rode a ti Seven.

http://wheelsuckers.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/0328081100a.jpg



http://wheelsuckers.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/basso.jpg


I think ti could make a comeback if carbon becomes more expensive or ti becomes cheaper.

[pmac]

I got a new Legend in late December (all Ti based on suggestions here) and think it's great. I'm looking forward to getting a steel bike for comparison some time in the future (a Kirk tops the list), but it's hard to imagine being much more pleased.

Paul

[Jeff N.]

They can have my Holland Ti when they pry it from my cold, de.....well, you know. Jeff N.

[Elefantino]

I own two ti Serottas and have to say that titanium, as a frame material, sucks. And it makes me very angry.

I have purchased an average of 1.428571 frames/bikes a year for the past 10 years and began each year with a pledge that I would buy no new bikes/frames that year. As I took each pledge, I knew deep inside that I would break it when something sparkly came along. Which is, of course, what happened. Every year.

I made the pledge again this year, the first year I've done so as a two-ti owner. And somehow I know deep inside that I will not, repeat not, break the pledge this year. My ti bikes are, um, all I need. (OK, so the economy may have something small to do with this. Work with me here.)

Bottom line: Titanium fever, still very much alive, has killed my bike-purchase libido.

Is there a pill for this problem?

[dekindy]

$2,395 for a Heritage Collection Ti road frame/fork seems like a great deal considering a Fierte Ti lists for $3,513. I don't know what other Ti options are availabe in the marketplace. However, the Heritage Ti seems like it might be one of the best values around for a new, quality frame with a warranty.

[paczki]

I always find it weird how people use "plastic" pejoratively on these threads. Carbon isn't plastic, obviously, but if they made a bike that rode nice out of plastic I'd consider buying it. Or bamboo. Or even flax seed. :banana:

[djg]

Smiley, you know that a great bike can be built out of Ti pipes by somebody who knows what he or she or they are doing and, equally, that there are many mediocre carbon bikes out there (and some lousy ones). Steel? There are people building fantastic steel bikes but there's nothing magic about the stuff and the reverse "steel is real" fad has reminded us that, back in the day, the really good bikes were steel, the really ok bikes were steel, and the really crap bikes were also steel. Carbon has the popular rep of the latest/greatest wonder material and there are, in fact, some killer carbon options out there -- people looking for the latest/greatest sub 1000 gram frame are going to buy carbon and people who decide what to buy based on a 90 word review in bicycling magazine are also going to buy carbon. As for manufacturing, I gather that certain sorts of things with carbon can be labor-intensive and pricey, but that basic manufacturing is relatively inexpensive, perhaps especially relative to Ti, which has gotten expensive -- Serotta told me that they dropped the HSG Ti, which I really like, in part because it was expensive to build, relative to carbon, for which many people were willing to pay more money. Some of the new steel pipes are cool and, yeah, I could get a 54 cm frame to come in right around 3 lbs, which is competitive with Ti frame weights, even if we're supposing that a few ounces matter much one way or the other. I think that, for a lot of folks, the nice thing is that, in steel, one could get a great made-to-measure frame at a relatively favorable price. To put it in Serotta terms, I might prefer a CDA at 2300 bucks to a Legend at 4,200 - 5K or so and feel that I'm giving up little to nada in performance. But at equal dollars, I'd take the Legend.

[paczki]

$2,395 for a Heritage Collection Ti road frame/fork seems like a great deal considering a Fierte Ti lists for $3,513. I don't know what other Ti options are availabe in the marketplace. However, the Heritage Ti seems like it might be one of the best values around for a new, quality frame with a warranty.

+1 :banana:

[fourflys]

Or bamboo.

Calfee does and, by his estimations, it rides just as well as his carbon bikes...

[zap]

What brands were your friends riding? Teledyne Titans?

None of us are that old.

Most were built in TN but have seen others fail.

Hey, I know, it's all sort of silly as it's more about the fabricator than the material.

Zin-You're a third of the way there with the carbon composite fork. Adding a fine carbon composite frame is much like having Williams-Selyem zin with a fine meal next to the fireplace and........

[sg8357]

Good Grief

Yeah, I'd never buy a Picasso, I only like paintings done in tempera using
ostrich egg binder.

Scott G.
This message sent via clay tablet.

[mwaldhopkins]

I've been dubbed a "Ti Whore" which is probably a suitable description.

I've been racing for many years and have gone through a lot of bikes, giving steel, Al, and C a shot. In my mind, nothing compares to Ti. I (now) refuse to buy into the myth that I need the stiffest, lightest thing out there. I'm a big, strong guy and have never had any flex issues with the Legend Ti, and a single extra pound means nothing. I'm done with Asian, disposable, bubble-gum frames. They are flashy and pretty when new, but the love affair never lasts. I always go back to my true love- boring, industrial Ti which will look and ride the same for your kids as it did for you.

[Ahneida Ride]

I own a Legend and I've demoed a Ottrott, Meivici and a CSi ...

They are all great bikes. I can't honestly say that one is better
then another. It's really comes down to personal preference.
They all have a certain sweet spot. One is bound to speak to ya.

I love my Legend. Perhaps the best all around bike out there. ;)

My next adventure will be into lugged steel from the Master himself,
Mr. Bedford.

[PhatMatt]

When I had it built for me I asked the crew at IF to mimic the ride of my favorite steel bikes as closely as they could on my new Ti Crown Jewel. Since I had that image/idea in mind when I took delivery and started riding the snot out of it I have always thought that I ended up with exactly what I had asked for...a ti bike that feels like steel. Does it really? Who knows but I loved how it rode 6 years ago and it rides the same way today.

As an added bonus I can sneak out on a 35 degree sunny day on the slushy and salty and sandy roads of Boston and muck this bike up without too much worry about effecting its life-span.

Really from a standpoint of practicality, sexiness, and ridability what's not to like?

[Tobias]

Blondes, brunettes, or redheads? :confused:

Most of us find excitement in variety – it’s natural -- but the bottom line remains that below the surface they are 99 percent the same. It’s just a freaking bike. Given time we’ll get bored with just about anything.

BTW, I find it preposterous to assume titanium can’t make a very stiff bike. Material properties – density, stiffness, and strength -- are somewhere in the middle between steel and aluminum, so how can we have stiff steel and aluminum bikes and not be able to make one out of titanium? It doesn’t make sense.

The most common and valid argument against titanium stiffness -- where there are clearance limitations at the chainstays – should make us ask how aluminum gets around it. An identical part made of ti is stiffer than if out of aluminum.

Also, what causes a lot of failures is the foolish pursuit of light weight frames. When weenies try to build 12-pound bikes using 2-pound titanium frames they are asking for failures. To blame the material is absurd.

[texbike]

I've had several Ti bikes and haven't been super impressed with any of them except for one. My favorite was a Colnago MonoTitan that was built as a rain/beater bike.

However, I like natural Ti and sold the Colnago instead of stripping its Art Decor paint. I picked up a Vamoots to replace it toward the end of last year and have been riding it quite a bit since then.

At first I wasn't crazy about the Moots, thinking that it wasn't nearly as stiff as my C40 or MXL and that it didn't handle, accelerate, or climb as well as either of those two. However, I like the value proposition of Ti and decided to stick with the Moots since it did fill the bill as a bike to keep the C40 and MXL out of nasty weather. I've slowly grown to appreciate it more each ride.

It still isn't as good as the Colnago or Merckx in my opinion, but it gets the job done and looks nice.

Texbike

[palincss]

Plus ti breaks faster than you can say heart break. Too many failures among my friends.


My 1991 Ti Spectrum is still going strong after 18 years. I find it pretty hard to accept the idea that "titanium breaks faster than you can say heartbreak".

Whose Ti? Broke how?

[palincss]

Bottom line: Titanium fever, still very much alive, has killed my bike-purchase libido.

Is there a pill for this problem?

Yes, Cialis: so you can ride hard all weekend long.

[Ray]

Yes, Cialis: so you can ride hard all weekend long.
If you find yourself experiencing a ride that lasts longer than four hours, call your Doctah!

-Ray

[avalonracing]

Blondes, brunettes, or redheads?

Yes, please.

[Keith A]

If you find yourself experiencing a ride that lasts longer than four hours, call your Doctah!Silly me...I thought that was the goal...on the other hand, maybe your "training partner" might not agree :D

[CNY rider]

If you find yourself experiencing a ride that lasts longer than four hours, call your Doctah!

-Ray



interesting line that one.
I rarely prescribe that stuff, but when I do I tell the patients specifically NOT to call me if their pecker won't go down after 4 hours. :p
Like, what the hell am I going to do about it?

[Ray]

interesting line that one.
I rarely prescribe that stuff, but when I do I tell the patients specifically NOT to call me if their pecker won't go down after 4 hours. :p
Like, what the hell am I going to do about it?
Get back in there and keep working it until it does go down.

Or take two aspirin and call me in the morning?

-Ray

[Slave2Gus]

interesting line that one.
I rarely prescribe that stuff, but when I do I tell the patients specifically NOT to call me if their pecker won't go down after 4 hours. :p
Like, what the hell am I going to do about it?


Call "ask a nurse"??

Wrecked on my ti Merlin this weekend. I'm a bit scraped up but the bike looks fine. Maybe I would be a bit worried if it were carbon. Or maybe not.

[rockdude]

Ti can be built to ride anyway you want and they are forever bikes. For my liking, no other materal compares.

Ti Bikes I currently own.

Seven Alaris- ready to be built
Serotta Legend- 56cm (Main ride)
Serottta Legend- 57 TT (For Sale)
Serotta Hors Categorie CX- Smoooth as a flying carpet, I love it.
Moots Cinco-MTB
Litespeed Obed-SS
Lightspeed Vortex 56cm (For Sale)

The only one that is flexy is the Obed but I like the ride because it smoooths out the rough rides. I have heard of Obed cracking but I have not had any problems and it is 13 years old.

[ti_boi]

I was with a friend who I am encouraging to buy a road bike...and he is looking at Carbon. The owner of a bike told me that "no one" is working with Ti anymore....of course I laffed and said.....I know someone who is.... :rolleyes:

[Keith A]

Call "ask a nurse"??Just make sure you don't get this one...

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e233/johnnyboltz/nurse.jpg

[rePhil]

I have said many times...I will never part with my Moots willingly.
I like the dropouts and large chainstays.
It's as stiff as I will ever need. The older I get the more overrated stiffness is.
I like the industrial finish and rust is no longer a concern.

[Blue Jays]

If someone is having "flex" and/or "breakage" problems with a titanium frameset they obviously made a tragic research decision when purchasing.
I can put more than 600 pounds on a leg sled and haven't encountered so much as a hiccup from my titanium bike.

Love that steel, carbon fiber, and aluminum, too. Titanium really speaks to me, though.

[soulspinner]

Yes, please.

Yeah, who said its gotta be or...

[znfdl]

None of us are that old.

Most were built in TN but have seen others fail.

Hey, I know, it's all sort of silly as it's more about the fabricator than the material.

Zin-You're a third of the way there with the carbon composite fork. Adding a fine carbon composite frame is much like having Williams-Selyem zin with a fine meal next to the fireplace and........

When Kellogg starts making Carbon frames, maybe. I think that I can wait a long time ;)

As a side note, I replaced the fork on my first Spectrum Ti 4 times and 3 groupos, but the Ti kept on a rolling.