Tyler Hamiltons day off or (How I got to ride with Tyler)

[SoCalSteve]

Hi all,

In and around Los Angeles, it is not unusual to see the Rock Racing team training or even just individuals (or a couple) riders out training. On a couple of occasions I have tried to keep up with them and do for about 15 seconds and then they just ride off...You'll never realize how fast pro riders really are until you actually see them in a race or try to keep up with them. It just doesnt compute on TV.

Anyway, I was out doing my normal 30 mile ride to the beach and back today when I spotted about 5 riders wearing Rock Racing kits coming towards me. I see that one of them is Tyler Hamiltom.

So, what do I do...I turn around and start following them figuring I would keep up for about 15 seconds and then I'd turn around and continue my ride...

Well, this was a bit different. They were riding REALLY slow! So slow that I was able to catch up to Tyler and I was about to pass him (yes, pass Tyler Hamilton) when I slowed and just said hello, how ya doing? Nice weather...To my surprise, he was really nice, warm, friendly and inviting...I ended up having about a 10-15 minute chat while riding with him and his group through Marina Del Rey into Venice.

He introduced me to all his group and he explained that he was just doing a very slow recovery ride and that he had been training hard for the last 4 days and he started Rock Racing training camp tomorrow and then was racing in the Tour of California.

Get this, the people he was riding with were: 1.) a very pretty young woman who he said was the president of the mens clothing division of Rock Racing and was her 3rd time on a bike. 2.) The producer of the Rock Racing TV ad spots and 3.) (your gonna love this) the designer of the Rock Racing cycling kits...I bit my tongue as I my mother taught me if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all.

After a few minutes of riding with him and telling him what I do (turns out he is a fan of Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles) I just sort of looked at him and smiled and said...Boy your heart rate must not be over 100. He smiled back and told me that sometimes the best way to recover is to ride really slowly and that he was just enjoying the scenery and the beautiful weather.

My ride today is something I will never forget. How often do you get to ride with a pro cyclist (and winner of an Olympic Gold medal)?

As I left them, I wished him luck in the race and told him I'd see him on TV.

Fun times!

Steve

[saab2000]

Cool.

And enough to make folks believe that not all accused cheaters are the moral equivalent of homicidal baby eaters.

[93legendti]

Very cool!

[avalonracing]

Cool.

And enough to make folks believe that not all accused cheaters are the moral equivalent of homicidal baby eaters.


Hey, no one saw what he had to eat after the ride. Bwwwaaahahahaaa!

[Viper]

Get this, the people he was riding with were: 1.) a very pretty young woman who he said was the president of the mens clothing division of Rock Racing and was her 3rd time on a bike. 2.) The producer of the Rock Racing TV ad spots and 3.) (your gonna love this) the designer of the Rock Racing cycling kits...I bit my tongue as I my mother taught me if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all.

Tyler gets a little bit of a free pass. For some reason the dope-talk focuses on Lance, Landis and others. Hamilton's gold medal is iron pyrite and having your lawyers claim you might be a chimara is cheesy. Tyler was out with three backstage groupies. Biting one's tongue versus speaking the truth are two different things; I'd have passed on a stroll with Tour of Qinghai Lake champion and Team Cheese. Then again, it's California so the rule books are different.

[cloudguy]

I passed Tyler too (going uphill even) north of Boulder on Left Hand canyon road. They do ride sloooow sometimes. I didn't have the courage to say much other than "Hi".

[false_Aest]

What kind've sunglasses was he wearing???

[mgm777]

I have had random encounters with Tyler riding around Boulder on a few occasions. He always has been super nice and cordial with me. No arrogance whatsoever. Whatever he did or didn't do, he served his time.

[fourflys]

I got to meet Tyler at Interbike last year and he was really nice, very warm and inviting. He seemed very appreciative of the fan support that was there and the support of him being back. I also got to meet Christian VandeVelde and was just as nice, talked to me about his kids when he saw my wife and baby taking pics.

Me and Tyler
http://threeflys.smugmug.com/photos/380874681_idbE8-S.jpg

Me and Christian
http://threeflys.smugmug.com/photos/380874524_X4KRU-S.jpg

Very cool day for me!

[SoCalSteve]

Tyler gets a little bit of a free pass. For some reason the dope-talk focuses on Lance, Landis and others. Hamilton's gold medal is iron pyrite and having your lawyers claim you might be a chimara is cheesy. Tyler was out with three backstage groupies. Biting one's tongue versus speaking the truth are two different things; I'd have passed on a stroll with Tour of Qinghai Lake champion and Team Cheese. Then again, it's California so the rule books are different.

Too bad, as you would have missed out on riding with a man who has paid his debt and whether you believe it or not, won the OLYMPIC GOLD MEDAL fair and square!

When will you ever have the chance to ride with a Tour De France stage winner, Giro De Italia stage winner, Tour De Romandie overall winner, Dauphine Libere overall winner and now he is the United States Road Race cycling champion? (I am sure I missed a few).

As for rule books and California, ours must be tainted by all the sunshine and beautiful weather we are having...

Just sayin'

Steve

[bironi]

Sounds like you had a great day Steve. I hope you are able to get out on the road to watch some of the tour in your sunny state. It looks like great terrain and a beautiful ride on the tele. :beer:

Byron

[Tom Byrnes]

Great story, Steve. Tyler was riding in the South Bay Donut Ride on Saturday in Palos Verdes. A few La Grange members also got to ride and chat with him. Nice guy.

Best,

Tom

[conorb]

Cool story, thanks for sharing.

I've always considered Tyler one of the "good guys" regardless.

conorb

[paulandmonster]

im glad you had a chance to ride with tyler and that you were lucky enough to get him on a slow day. ive ridden with many guys and been around many teams. i have yet to run into any prima donnas. theese guys for the most part dont make much and are pretty happy just to be rocgnized. but i have to say when they decide to go theres really not much you can do other than apreciate the dedication it takes to get that fast.

[William]

Very cool. :cool:

Thank you for sharing.




William

[soulspinner]

Good 4 you man. For some reason I have a soft spot for Vandevelde and wish he could win a big one. Nice to know Hamilton is a human being. Hes been through a lot and Ill say it again-you never know what you woulda done in his shoes no matter what you say on a chat board. The image of him with a busted up shoulder in the tour was epic stuff.

[LegendRider]

And enough to make folks believe that not all accused cheaters are the moral equivalent of homicidal baby eaters.

This is a good point. People are complex - Tyler could be both a super nice guy and a former doper - they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. In fact, judging by what I've read, that's probably as good a description of him as there is!

[Cantdog]

I saw him in Colorado one time, on one of those dead straight roads west of Longmont. It was an ungodly hot day in 2005 and I was struggling to finish a ride that started in Rustic and was to finish in Boulder. I was all set to call a friend to come pick me up when I saw a Phonak rider coming towards me, sitting up, on a TT bike. Sure enough it was Tyler and he waved as we passed. Gave me just enough energy to finish the ride.

[Flat Out]

To the OP. Great story. Thanks.

[goonster]

having your lawyers claim you might be a chimara is cheesy.

His lawyers never claimed he might be a chimara, chimera, mandrake, cerberus, or even a griffin.

Get it straight . . . :rolleyes:

[paczki]

I've never heard anyone say that Tyler Hamilton was anything less than a swell guy.

[Ahneida Ride]

When will you ever have the chance to ride with a Tour De France stage winner, Giro De Italia stage winner, Tour De Romandie overall winner, Dauphine Libere overall winner and now he is the United States Road Race cycling champion? (I am sure I missed a few).

Steve

Mt. Washington Race ????? I think Tyler won that too ! ;)

[texbike]

This is a good point. People are complex - Tyler could be both a super nice guy and a former doper - they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. In fact, judging by what I've read, that's probably as good a description of him as there is!

This statement is probably about as close to reality as you can get.

I've always liked Tyler and was really rooting for him in the 2003 TdF when we went over to follow it. Regardless of whether he doped or not, I was impressed by his tenacity and commitment to continue racing in face of the injuries that he suffered. He still has my respect for that!

I'm not sure if you have read the wikipedia entry for Tyler, but it is really quite damning in my opinion regarding the doping allegations.

As a sidenote, I was recently in the market for a nice Look 381 or 481 and ended up buying one of Tyler's 381s from the 2003 season.


Cheers,

Texbike

[Auk]

And Liege-Bastonge-Liege, among others.

[BumbleBeeDave]

His lawyers never claimed he might be a chimara, chimera, mandrake, cerberus, or even a griffin.

Get it straight . . . :rolleyes:

I am so tired of people seizing on this and using it to ridicule him. If I am remembering correctly, some medical expert he consulted for his defense mentioned there were a number of possible explanations for mixed red blood cell populations and that an en vitro chimera could be one of them. Media then seized on it and treated it as an accomplished fact that Tyler himself had made the "claim" and that it was a legit part of his defense. This was never true, but it's exactly the kind of under the table public relations/legal smear I've seen so many times in journalism. Though it's very hard to ever prove where rumors of this type originate, it's exactly the kind of stunt a savvy lawyer or PR operative would use to prejudice the public against the person whose reputation they are trying to savage. :no:

I also agree with LegendRider that Tyler could very well be a very nice guy and a doper. Why do so many people think the two are mutually exclusive? :crap:

BBD

[SoCalSteve]

I am so tired of people seizing on this and using it to ridicule him. If I am remembering correctly, some medical expert he consulted for his defense mentioned there were a number of possible explanations for mixed red blood cell populations and that an en vitro chimera could be one of them. Media then seized on it and treated it as an accomplished fact that Tyler himself had made the "claim" and that it was a legit part of his defense. This was never true, but it's exactly the kind of under the table public relations/legal smear I've seen so many times in journalism. Though it's very hard to ever prove where rumors of this type originate, it's exactly the kind of stunt a savvy lawyer or PR operative would use to prejudice the public against the person whose reputation they are trying to savage. :no:

I also agree with LegendRider that Tyler could very well be a very nice guy and a doper. Why do so many people think the two are mutually exclusive? :crap:

BBD

I think the key here is that he may have been IN THE PAST, he paid his debt and now has the right to race as a professional again. Some people have retired and given up on the sport after being given suspensions...

Go Tyler!

Steve

[Viper]

His lawyers never claimed he might be a chimara, chimera, mandrake, cerberus, or even a griffin.

Get it straight . . . :rolleyes:

"Working under the assumption that Hamilton did in fact have a mixed RBC population in his body on September 11, 2004, the next part of his defence focused on other causes of said population. Both disease and bone marrow transplant were "ruled out as having a zero probability", leaving Hamilton to argue that he had a 'vanishing twin', that transferred some of its RBCs to Hamilton while he was in the womb, but disappeared in the first trimester of pregnancy; or that he is a human chimera, with a natural mixed RBC population."


Q: What was the deal with the chimera defense? You were ridiculed over claims that the presence of foreign blood could have been due to an embryonic twin that your body absorbed in the womb.

A: "The media latched on to that as my whole defense. It wasn't. I'm not chimeric. It came from a scientist and was given as just one of many examples of how there can be a false positive. But there are other ways—technical errors, lab errors."

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:vyPK5Qc8IwkJ:www.tdfblog.com/2005/05/new_york_times_.html+tyler+hamilton+chimera&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:yOqH5IrYt5sJ:grg51.typepad.com/steroid_nation/2007/03/tyler_hamiltons.html+tyler+hamilton+chimera&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:LwHW5pXDxjsJ:www.cyclingnews.com/news.php%3Fid%3Dfeatures/2005/hamilton_decision+tyler+hamilton+chimera&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:No489DAOSSsJ:outside.away.com/outside/culture/200703/tyler-hamilton.html+tyler+hamilton+chimera&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=us

[Viper]

I'm not sure if you have read the wikipedia entry for Tyler, but it is really quite damning in my opinion regarding the doping allegations.


+1, agreed.

And they're not merely allegations or accusations. Tyler Hamilton is a convicted cheater. And that's a fact. Cyclists and society can view him as a nice cheater, but the law views him simply as convicted...a nice guy who was found guilty.

I am sure jail cells are filled with really nice drug dealers, murderers, rapists and pedophiles.

Nice has nothing to do with it, it being The Law.

Tyler Hamilton might be nice, do I have to care about that? He's a New England native and gets a free pass cause he had a nice dog and his wife left him?

"It goes against everything I've ever seen or known from the guy. But the rest of us at the Olympics passed the test. Why didn't he? I'm sick of people who cheat, sick of cleaning up their mess and trying to explain it. There is heavy evidence against him. With that much evidence, I don't know how he's going to get out of it."
~Bobby Julich

Tyler didn't get out of it.

Barry Bonds = A scumbag cheater

Tyler Hamilton = Gets a free pass cause he's a nice guy?

Nope. And that's why they call it dope.

Bobby Juclich? Now there is a nice guy atmo:

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:nkmKLbMC5cAJ:sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2007/news/story%3Fid%3D2941115+bobby+julich+never+cheated&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

[Tailwinds]

I met him, too. He was very nice.

[paczki]

I also agree with LegendRider that Tyler could very well be a very nice guy and a doper. Why do so many people think the two are mutually exclusive? :crap:

BBD

+ lots

I'm nice and I am also a dope.

[Sandy]

Steve gives a wonderful summary of a chance meeting and riding with a superior cyclist, depicting him as "really nice, warm, friendly, and inviting.." Why not accept the OP as it was clearly communicated without bringing up the negatives/failures of the individual. We are all human and none of us are perfect. Who among us have not made mistakes in our past? Why detract from an excellent post by Steve? I don't get it.


Sandy

[SoCalSteve]

Steve gives a wonderful summary of a chance meeting and riding with a superior cyclist, depicting him as "really nice, warm, friendly, and inviting.." Why not accept the OP as it was clearly communicated without bringing up the negatives/failures of the individual. We are all human and none of us are perfect. Who among us have not made mistakes in our past? Why detract from an excellent post by Steve? I don't get it.


Sandy

Gets it!

Thank you Sandy. Believe me, the farthest thing from my mind when I was riding with him was about his doping scandals. All I could think about was that he is a pro cyclist with many great wins (including an Olympic Gold medal) and how much heart he has and how we rooted for him when he won the mountain stage in the TDF when he had a broken clavical.

Again, thank you Sandy (the Henry Kissinger of the Serotta Forum).

Steve

[jhcakilmer]

+1, agreed.

And they're not merely allegations or accusations. Tyler Hamilton is a convicted cheater. And that's a fact. Cyclists and society can view him as a nice cheater, but the law views him simply as convicted...a nice guy who was found guilty.

I am sure jail cells are filled with really nice drug dealers, murderers, rapists and pedophiles.

Nice has nothing to do with it, it being The Law.

Tyler Hamilton might be nice, do I have to care about that? He's a New England native and gets a free pass cause he had a nice dog and his wife left him?

"It goes against everything I've ever seen or known from the guy. But the rest of us at the Olympics passed the test. Why didn't he? I'm sick of people who cheat, sick of cleaning up their mess and trying to explain it. There is heavy evidence against him. With that much evidence, I don't know how he's going to get out of it."
~Bobby Julich

Tyler didn't get out of it.

Barry Bonds = A scumbag cheater

Tyler Hamilton = Gets a free pass cause he's a nice guy?

Nope. And that's why they call it dope.

Bobby Juclich? Now there is a nice guy atmo:

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:nkmKLbMC5cAJ:sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2007/news/story%3Fid%3D2941115+bobby+julich+never+cheated&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Man, I hope you've never cheated, or lied......kind of hypocritical to go off on an individual that you've probably never met, and definitely have a small understand his character........but guess what, he's human.....sorry to break it to you, but we're all imperfect.

He served his time (and lost 2+ years, in possibly the prime of this career).....so I'm always one to give a guy a second, or third chance, especially those that "seem" modest, and accomodating as Tyler is.........

I don't know you viper, but sometimes you can really go off on your "high horse"......lets try to keep all this in perspective.

"we tend to judge others by their actions, and ourselves by our intent".....we should be cautious about how we "perceive" each other

[BumbleBeeDave]

+1, agreed.

And they're not merely allegations or accusations. Tyler Hamilton is a convicted cheater. And that's a fact. Cyclists and society can view him as a nice cheater, but the law views him simply as convicted...a nice guy who was found guilty.

I am sure jail cells are filled with really nice drug dealers, murderers, rapists and pedophiles.

Nice has nothing to do with it, it being The Law.

Tyler Hamilton might be nice, do I have to care about that? He's a New England native and gets a free pass cause he had a nice dog and his wife left him?

I have always been under the impression that one of the prime reasons behind our judicial system and the sentences it assigns to convicted offenders is to rehabilitate the offender so he doesn't go out and commit the crime again. Regardless of whether the offender admits to his crime publicly or not, the presumption is that when he gets out of jail he won't do it again and deserves a second chance to live a useful and productive life.

Unfortunately, it doesn't often work that way. Many people seem to believe that once convicted, the offender will never again be trustworthy, nice, productive, or any of the other presumed qualities of a productive citizen. ONE mistake or crime ruins them for the rest of their lives in EVERY aspect, not just whatever area they committed the crime in. CYO (convicted youth offender) laws in some states acknowledge this very fact--there's a stigma attached to a conviction that can follow the youthful accused their whole lives. Unless they gain CYO status upon satisfactory completion of their sentence and the record is cleared, they will go through life paying the price again and again for an original mistake whenever they apply for a job, for a loan, or when people in their new town, club, or relationship find out they're an "ex-con."

Those judgmental people that make it so difficult for ex-offenders to succeed would seem to include you, judging from what you have posted. sounds like you'd be perfectly happy to watch him going through life paying the price over and over and over. Regardless of whether he did dope or not--and I believe he did--Tyler HAS served his sentence. I think he deserves a chance to prove he can race clean and once again be an inspiration. In fact, that's exactly what he's done the past year. You have doubts he raced clean in the Tour of Qinghai Lake or the US nats? I don't. Apparently from the way you refer to it the Tour of Qinghai Lake is just some little Cat 5 race or something. I guess that also means you or I could have gone there and raced successfully? I doubt it. Do you feel the same way about the US nats?

I'm no longer a Tyler apologist. I think he did dope. Exactly when besides during the Olympics? I don't know. Nor do I particularly care. He served his sentence, possibly also lost his marriage and certainly huge amounts of his personal assets, and he deserves to have people like you cut him some &$#% slack. Only Jesus could possibly measure up to the standards of perfection that you seem to be applying to Tyler.

BBD

[Viper]

I'm no longer a Tyler apologist. I think he did dope. Exactly when besides during the Olympics? I don't know. Nor do I particularly care. He served his sentence, possibly also lost his marriage and certainly huge amounts of his personal assets, and he deserves to have people like you cut him some &$#% slack. Only Jesus*** could possibly measure up to the standards of perfection that you seem to be applying to Tyler.

BBD

Is this. That Tyler Hamilton has never apologized.

I don't forgive blindly, I ain't Jesus (who was a liberal hippie). I'm a bigger fan of Jesus' dad, who did indeed see things in black and white. If ya really wanna get Biblical on me at least post some pics of Charlton Heston, Moses.

According to you I should feel sorrow for a doper and the things he's lost? Get real. Or don't. But don't tell me how and what I should think or say or feel.

I have no pity for any man who cannot man-up, face the facts, face the judge and most importantly face the mirror and say, "Folks, fans of cycling I apologize to you. I spent $50K on dope, drugs and I cheated. I was sentenced, banned for two years. I'll be back in two years, clean and look forward to that day."

Without those simple, magical words, he gets no respect nor any admiration from me.

Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis have not admitted nor apologized. They get nothing from me and yes, I'll raise my chin and nose at folks like them and wouldn't have it any other way.

And believe this BBD, anything I say on this forum, I'd say to Floyd or Tyler face to face. Yeah they'd kick my arse on the bike, but off the bike, my words have more wattage then both those cats put together. People don't deserve slack as you say, they have to ask for it and it comes in the form of two words, "I'm sorry." It's how I was raised and it's how I roll.

Wrong:

http://watergate.info/nixon/73-04-30watergate-speech.shtml

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:k39mWt4yFg4J:www.europeloton.com/2008/10/tyler-hamiltons-long-road-back-rock.html+tyler+hamilton+admits&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/18/AR2007051802147.html

Wronged, but righted:

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:31EJtsJvCWsJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle+saul+of+tarsus&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

http://legalball.com/MLB_News_Jason_Giambi_Steroids

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/12/sports/othersports/12cycling.html?_r=1&hp&ex=1158120000&en=505b581f8eea7486&ei=5094&partner=homepage

http://www.training4cyclists.com/bjarne-riis-admits-epo-abuse/

http://www.velonews.com/article/12213

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21138883/

*** = I'm not saying Tyler needs to change his middle name from Saul to Paul, but it's not a bad idea at the next press conference :D At the least, he should see the light and grab the mic atmo:

"Then one day, while Saul was on one of his journeys of persecution, as he was nearing Damascus (seen in photograph), he suddenly found himself surrounded by a very bright light. He fell to the ground and heard a voice from the heavens say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?"...Saul, the man most Christians of the time may have considered to be somewhat of a monster, had reached his day of conversion - in no uncertain terms! He was literally knocked down on the road to Damascus and directly called by God. He thereafter became known as Paul."

:beer:

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/saultars.htm

[jhcakilmer]

Is this. That Tyler Hamilton has never apologized.

I don't forgive blindly, I ain't Jesus (who was a liberal hippie). I'm a bigger fan of Jesus' dad, who did indeed see things in black and white. If ya really wanna get Biblical on me at least post some pics of Charlton Heston, Moses.

According to you I should feel sorrow for a doper and the things he's lost? Get real. Or don't. But don't tell me how and what I should think or say or feel.

I have no pity for any man who cannot man-up, face the facts, face the judge and most importantly face the mirror and say, "Folks, fans of cycling I apologize to you. I spent $50K on dope, drugs and I cheated. I was sentenced, banned for two years. I'll be back in two years, clean and look forward to that day."

Without those simple, magical words, he gets no respect nor any admiration from me.

Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis have not admitted nor apologized. They get nothing from me and yes, I'll raise my chin and nose at folks like them and wouldn't have it any other way.

And believe this BBD, anything I say on this forum, I'd say to Floyd or Tyler face to face. Yeah they'd kick my arse on the bike, but off the bike, my words have more wattage then both those cats put together. People don't deserve slack as you say, they have to ask for it and it comes in the form of two words, "I'm sorry." It's how I was raised and it's how I roll.

Wrong:

http://watergate.info/nixon/73-04-30watergate-speech.shtml

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:k39mWt4yFg4J:www.europeloton.com/2008/10/tyler-hamiltons-long-road-back-rock.html+tyler+hamilton+admits&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/18/AR2007051802147.html

Wronged, but righted:

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:31EJtsJvCWsJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle+saul+of+tarsus&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

http://legalball.com/MLB_News_Jason_Giambi_Steroids

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/12/sports/othersports/12cycling.html?_r=1&hp&ex=1158120000&en=505b581f8eea7486&ei=5094&partner=homepage

http://www.training4cyclists.com/bjarne-riis-admits-epo-abuse/

http://www.velonews.com/article/12213

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21138883/

*** = I'm not saying Tyler needs to change his middle name from Saul to Paul, but it's not a bad idea at the next press conference :D atmo:

"Then one day, while Saul was on one of his journeys of persecution, as he was nearing Damascus (seen in photograph), he suddenly found himself surrounded by a very bright light. He fell to the ground and heard a voice from the heavens say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?"

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/saultars.htm


Man, most of what you've said makes little sense.....seems as though your just using this forum as your personal "soapbox". Remember this is "just" cycling, and this thread is just one guy's experience about his connection with a fellow cyclist.

Plus, if your going to be quoting scripture you should really walk the walk, and not just use singular paragraphs that don't represent the totality of the whole (plus, ironically it was God that blinded Saul, not another man....so who are you, can you really self rightceous). The bible emphasizes (Christ, Paul, etc) mercy, and forgiveness exceedingly more than "fire and brimstone". Is it your personal vendetta to make sure people are "honest" and repentant?

[Viper]

Man, most of what you've said makes little sense.....seems as though your just using this forum as your personal "soapbox". Remember this is "just" cycling, and this thread is just one guy's experience about his connection with a fellow cyclist.

Plus, if your going to quoting scripture you should really walk the walk. The bible emphasizes (Christ, Paul, etc) mercy, forgiveness, etc...more than "fire and brimstone". Is it your personal vendetta to make sure people are "honest" and repentant?

I defer the personal attack and offer this. I could do this all day. I'll outlast your personal attacks. I attack Tyler and you attack me. Defend Tyler. I'll wait.

PS. There are many people who have said, "Tyler needs to apologize." And there are many people who agree with me 100%. Or maybe 99%. And if not, I do not care. If Barry Bonds is a scumbag, then Tyler is too. As you sow so shall you reap. I believe Tyler Hamilton to be a coward. Sue me. Just get a really good lawyer.

[jhcakilmer]

I defer the personal attack and offer this. I could do this all day. I'll outlast your personal attacks and drive you mad. I'm trying to save you from yourself. Read you personal attaks towards me and check yourself. I attack Tyler and you attack me. Defend Tyler. I'll wait.


Personal attacks?? I haven't called you a moron, or an idiot, or degraded your intelligence........just seems as though you want to start an argument, or some drama.

I also don't need to defend Tyler, there is nothing to defend......he made a mistake......paid for it....period. What's more to talk about???

We just need to becareful about how hard we judge others......Christ really primarily attacked the Pharisees for being legalistic, and judgment of those they saw as not practicing orthodoxy/orthoproxy or being less perfect then themselves.

Signing off!!

[Viper]

Personal attacks?? I haven't called you a moron, or an idiot, or degraded your intelligence........just seems as though you want to start an argument, or some drama.

I also don't need to defend Tyler, there is nothing to defend......he made a mistake......paid for it....period. What's more to talk about???

We just need to becareful about how hard we judge others......Christ really primarily attacked the Pharisees for being legalistic, and judgment of those they saw as not practicing orthodoxy/orthoproxy or being less perfect then themselves.

Signing off!!

When Tyler and Floyd admit their guilt, drop me a PM.*

PS. Maybe we ought to be more aware, plain-spoken and more direct. It goes both ways. We're in a Recession and every mouth breathing American watching cable news is angry wanting to know why people didn't speak up before this happened!

PSS. Re-read your posts, "Man, most of what you've said makes little sense.....seems as though your just using this forum as your personal "soapbox"... and look at your own element of...judgement! The very thing you snipe against, you have done.

* =

"Marion Jones’ voice never wavered, her reserve never faltered as the words rang out in the silent, stately federal courtroom. She was a liar and a cheat, she told the judge, her eyes never straying from his face.

And so ended years of angry denials by one of the world’s most celebrated athletes.

The owner of three Olympic golds and two bronze medals, Jones came clean Friday and admitted she used steroids. She pleaded guilty to lying to federal investigators when she denied using performance-enhancing drugs, then announced her retirement in a tearful apology outside the U.S. District Court.

“It’s with a great amount of shame that I stand before you and tell you that I have betrayed your trust,” Jones said, her voice cracking as her mother stood behind her, a strong and supportive hand on her shoulder.

“I have been dishonest and you have the right to be angry with me. I have let (my family) down. I have let my country down, and I have let myself down,” she said, pausing frequently to regain her composure. “I recognize that by saying I’m deeply sorry, it might not be enough and sufficient to address the pain and hurt that I’ve caused you.

“Therefore, I want to ask for your forgiveness for my actions, and I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me.”

The calm strength she’d displayed in the courtroom was gone, washed away by a flood of tears. She embraced her mother, who told her daughter, “Good job.”

The two then climbed into a black limousine with one of Jones’ attorneys and drove away, not taking any questions."

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/21138883/

So jhcakilmer when you accuse me of standing on a soap box, I counter that I stand on granite, diamond even...you state, "I also don't need to defend Tyler, there is nothing to defend......he made a mistake......paid for it....period. What's more to talk about???"

For the ninth time: Tyler (and Floyd) needs to admit the truth, acknowledge their actions, accept the blame and apologize. An apology costs nothing, but it's worth a whole lot.

[johnnymossville]

I wouldn't mind riding with Tyler, or Floyd, or any one of a bunch of pro riders if I was lucky enough to be out there on the same road as them some day. That's a really cool story!

[johnnymossville]

as a designer, I probably would've loved chatting with the riders he was with too!!

[rockdude]

I have rode with Tyler several times here in Boulder. Each time he has started a conversation with me. He has giving me pointers and encouraged me when I need it. From a personal side, I respect him and think he is one super nice guy. From a professional cycles side, I see him for what he is, an outstanding cycles who has won many great events and I respest what he has done regardless of his errors. I hope to see him win some more races this year. GO TYLER!!!

[Sandy]

I defer the personal attack and offer this. I could do this all day. I'll outlast your personal attacks. I attack Tyler and you attack me. Defend Tyler. I'll wait.

PS. There are many people who have said, "Tyler needs to apologize." And there are many people who agree with me 100%. Or maybe 99%. And if not, I do not care. If Barry Bonds is a scumbag, then Tyler is too. As you sow so shall you reap. I believe Tyler Hamilton to be a coward. Sue me. Just get a really good lawyer.

The basic point is that Steve was relating an enjoyable, and rare for most cyclists, interaction with Tyler. Whether he needs to apologize or is a coward or whatever may or may not be true and is certainly most debatable, but focusing on that debate on this thread takes completely away from the spirit of Steve's initial post. That debate would best be presented in a thread independent of this one.


Sandy

[jhcakilmer]

PSS. Re-read your posts, "Man, most of what you've said makes little sense.....seems as though your just using this forum as your personal "soapbox"... and look at your own element of...judgement! The very thing you snipe against, you have done.




Viper, I have re-read my postings, and I do apologize, that was hypocritical of me. I should have expressed myself in a less accusatory/critical manner.

Also, I don't take much stock in "singular" moments, I appreciate someone admitting a wrong, but what impresses me is how they change (if they change), and live there life after the mistake. We learn more from what we do wrong, than from what we do right!

[Viper]

The basic point is that Steve was relating an enjoyable, and rare for most cyclists, interaction with Tyler. Whether he needs to apologize or is a coward or whatever may or may not be true and is certainly most debatable, but focusing on that debate on this thread takes completely away from the spirit of Steve's initial post. That debate would best be presented in a thread independent of this one.


Sandy

It's Tyler's fault, nobody else's. This stance of yours is a scary, slippery slope. Imagine the next Lemond thread? People have bumped into him and opinions fly around, plural. They become a mudfest, depending on where you stand. Armstrong? Are you going to remove any and all debate in an Armstrong thread? Shh, we can say only nice things people, shhh.

Will you be consistent? Moreover, there has been a rebirth of political correctness of late. It's back, bigtime. The Fairness Act, heard about it since the am of January 21st. I believe political correctness to be audacious; it's risky and weak to subject a conversation to the lowest common denominator. Next will be dogs. Nobody can post about that recent Pit Bull attack in a Sandy dog thread. St. Patrick's Day? No Protestants can post in any thread related therein.

Think about this monster before you open the roof and let the lightning into the labratory.


Viper

PS. I <3 King. I hate pit bulls, but King is your doggie.

[Viper]

Viper, I have re-read my postings, and I do apologize, that was hypocritical of me. I should have expressed myself in a less accusatory/critical manner.

Also, I don't take much stock in "singular" moments, I appreciate someone admitting a wrong, but what impresses me is how they change (if they change), and live there life after the mistake. We learn more from what we do wrong, than from what we do right!

You are a top notch person. I apologize if I was rude.

I am consistent. I should eat more fiber and vegetables, I know, but when it comes to issues like the one we're discussing, you'll see I am consistent. I had the opportunity to take steroids many times. The offers were there, it was the drug du jour. I didn't. And if I did and I was caught, I'd admit & apologize.

Geoffrey: You fool! As if it matters how a man falls down!

Richard: When the fall’s all that’s left, it matters a great deal.

[BumbleBeeDave]

The basic point is that Steve was relating an enjoyable, and rare for most cyclists, interaction with Tyler.

. . . I've never heard a story from a cyclist who had an encounter with Tyler who didn't find him to be friendly and engaging--though I know that's not quite the way you meant it, Sandy.

I think Viper does have a point--an apology would be nice and would do a lot to help Tyler's reputation with many people. But I'm also sure there are a great many people who would still fit into the camp of condemning him no matter that he did apologize. For them every "Attaboy!" Tyler has ever earned since he first climbed on a bike is wiped out forever by that one "Oh ****!" Such people tell us far more about themselves through their condemnation than they tell us about Hamilton.

If Viper is serious about a sincere apology wiping the slate clean, then I stand corrected on that count. But keep in mind that an apology is not required from the UCI's disciplinary system. He served his suspension--that's all that is required--and he seems intent on redeeming himself by letting his legs do the talking. While I probably wouldn't go into business with him and would have some serious doubts about him marrying my sister, I do feel that we should give him a legit chance to rehab his image on the bike.

Oh, and Viper, I hereby challenge you to make 25 consecutive posts without either A) posting a "Battlestar Galactica" or "Star Wars" related photo OR B) using an example from either series to illustrate a philosophical point! :rolleyes: ;)

BBD

[Flat Out]

Oh, and Viper, I hereby challenge you to make 25 consecutive posts without either A) posting a "Battlestar Galactica" or "Star Wars" related photo OR B) using an example from either series to illustrate a philosophical point!

Yeah. That schtick's getting sort of tired. If we have to spend more than 10 minutes to figure out a connection between cylon babes and Tyler Hamilton it really wasn't worth the effort for you to paste the pictures up there in the first place was it?

[Viper]

While I probably wouldn't go into business with him and would have some serious doubts about him marrying my sister, I do feel that we should give him a legit chance to rehab his image on the bike.

BBD

Can I marry your sister! :beer:

There is the court of law and then people's court, the feelings of the fans. I was a big fan of Ivan Basso when he was the deal. He seemed to be a gifted cyclist and someone who'd win often. He was then snagged, caught, but he also admitted and apologized. Guess who I root the most for? The cowboy (or cowgirl) who fell off their horse and got back up. I'd love to see this dude rock in 2009:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/riders/2009/diaries/basso/?id=basso0901

The OP had a good day, a nice moment and good for him. My two cents on Hamilton won't impact his memory of that day. At least I don't think so.

[SoCalSteve]

Can I marry your sister! :beer:

There is the court of law and then people's court, the feelings of the fans. I was a big fan of Ivan Basso when he was the deal. He seemed to be a gifted cyclist and someone who'd win often. He was then snagged, caught, but he also admitted and apologized. Guess who I root the most for? The cowboy (or cowgirl) who fell off their horse and got back up. I'd love to see this dude rock in 2009:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/riders/2009/diaries/basso/?id=basso0901

The OP had a good day, a nice moment and good for him. My two cents on Hamilton won't impact his memory of that day. At least I don't think so.

I mean this most respectfully, your two cents or ever your two dollars mean nothing to me 99% of the time.

And, I did have a great day. Riding at the beach in 75* weather(in February) , feeling one with the bike and as an added bonus, getting to ride with a pro cyclist, doesnt get much better than that!

I imagine most people will never be given that chance (and even if they were, they would never be able to keep up-those boys are FAST).

My two cents,

Steve

[Viper]

I mean this most respectfully, your two cents or ever your two dollars mean nothing to me 99% of the time.




See now. This is where you go again and in the process...you only make yourself look the part. How smug..."I mean this most respectfully, your two cents or ever your two dollars mean nothing to me 99% of the time."

Steve, Steve, Steve when you insult someone, you don't preface it by saying, "Respectfully". :rolleyes: It's trollish, be manly about an insult!

I don't have to help you...you've done it yourself. From looking at your bikes and exposed seatposts, I believe you're a tall man. Maybe 6'2"? Right now and moving forward, you've lost about a foot. And Steve, let the internet-rule apply: ask yourself, would you be so smug in person? I think we both know the answer. :)

“Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.”
~Albert Einstein

[davidlee]

Viper's posts kinda freak me out.
Major thread drift material, always..

I've always heard Tyler is a cool guy . Cut 'em some slack man.

davidlee

[1centaur]

Steve:

Did you find yourself pedaling smoother when riding with a pro?

[Flat Out]

I mean this most respectfully, your two cents or ever your two dollars mean nothing to me 99% of the time.

Amen to that, Steve.

And props to Tyler and his foundation for helping people like myself who have MS to keep riding... and keep moving.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Can I marry your sister! :beer:

. . . then go for it! Just keep in mind her present husband may have something to say about it. He's a rather, um, large man and drives a forklift in a tractor factory in rural Kansas.* :eek:

*--Of course that's true! could I make up something that wacky? :D

BBD

[Viper]

Amen to that, Steve.

Excuse me, have we met? I'd like to at least exchange a brief hello first, before a troll pops up out of nowhere.

Seems some adults here are acting their shoe size, not their age. As for my posts taking you ten minutes to figure out, can't help you there. It's Darwin in action.

I think Tyler Hamilton is a loser. Insult me for it, or sue me LOL. :)

[SoCalSteve]

Steve:

Did you find yourself pedaling smoother when riding with a pro?

Very funny that you should ask this...Ever since Swoop said I may want to really look at the way racers sit on a bike-ride, I have been really in tune with watching others ride, especiallly racers...

That being said, my first reaction was to just ride behind him, watch his form, pedaling stroke, etc. (for the 15 seconds I would be able to keep up with him) and then turn back and finish my ride...

What ended up happening was that he was so nice and engaging, I never even had a chance to watch his form-stroke, whatever...

Kind of funny!

Steve

[e-RICHIE]

Very funny that you should ask this...Ever since Swoop said I <cut>


swoop has a new advice column coming out atmo.
you won't wanna miss it.
just sayin'.

[Flat Out]

Excuse me, have we met? I'd like to at least exchange a brief hello first, before a troll pops up out of nowhere.

Seems some adults here are acting their shoe size, not their age.

I think Tyler Hamilton is a loser. Insult me for it, or sue me LOL. :)

I don't need to insult you. Your own posts do the damage just fine. And yes, I'm a troll. Waiting. Biding my time. Until this. My 232nd post to finally make my move.

[Viper]

I don't need to insult you. Your own posts do the damage just fine. And yes, I'm a troll. Waiting. Biding my time. Until this. My 232nd post to finally make my move.

Please pal, that's my line. Get some original material. Okay, since the Mods are allowing insults this Monday, okay. Fine. This little mob of you and Steve, please. Smurfs, you missed the Smurf Village two roads down. Go grab your Tyler Hamilton coloring book and stay within the lines with those crayons. Tyler couldn't stay within the rules though.

How would you feel if you had cancer? If you had cancer and some cheeseball like Tyler Hamilton popped EPO for fun, for sport. Drugs invented to save lives from cancer being abused by cyclists. But you don't have cancer, so it's cool then, what Tyler does.

What if EPO was a drug for MS? Would you have a differing view of Hamilton then?

[Flat Out]

Please pal, that's my line. Get some original material. Okay, since the Mods are allowing insults this Monday, okay. Fine. This little mob of you and Steve, please. Smurfs, you missed the Smurf Village two roads down. Go grab your Tyler Hamilton coloring book and stay within the lines with those crayons. Tyler couldn't stay within the rules though.

How would you feel if you had cancer? If you had cancer and some cheeseball like Tyler Hamilton popped EPO for fun, for sport. Drugs invented to save lives from cancer being abused by cyclists. But you don't have cancer, so it's cool then, what Tyler does.

What if EPO was a drug for MS? Would you have a differing view of Hamilton then?

My view's as simple as this. I'd have no beef with you if you didn't crap on this gentleman's thread about an enjoyable day that he saw fit to share with the people on this forum. For whatever reason there's something inside you that felt that this was the time and place for you to lay waste to all things Tyler. Well, it was the wrong place. Wrong time.

There's no what if's there's only what is.

[Viper]

My view's as simple as this. I'd have no beef with you if you didn't crap on this gentleman's thread about an enjoyable day that he saw fit to share with the people on this forum. For whatever reason there's something inside you that felt that this was the time and place for you to lay waste to all things Tyler. Well, it was the wrong place. Wrong time.

There's no what if's there's only what is.



If you spend more time in forums or internets, happens all the time. Someone posts a pic of their Colnago with Ultegra components. One might post how they think it'd look better with Campy. Does the one who posted the pic cry to their mommy? Is there a mommy.com on the internet?

You'd know that Lemond threads start with the best of reasons. Someone rode with Greg Lemond here or there and guess what? The pro-Lance, anti-Lemond posters peek into the thread.

The OP bumped into Hamilton and three wanna-be's or whatever's they were. He bite his tongue cause, "His mom said don't say something unless it's nice."

I'm not riding with Hamilton right now. And I have an opinion on him. It is absurd, ridiculous to imply that one cannot post their thoughts on Tyler Hamilton in a Tyler Hamilton thread. What's weak though is a few who cannot debate Hamiton, attack the one who posted his opinion.

Perhaps. Perhaps your personal attachment to Hamilton occludes the notion that...other people have opinions of him too! You felt it was the wrong place and time for another human being to post about Hamilton? Call me on my cell, I'd like you to help me put together my outfit for tomorrow. And gentleman? Are you referring to Steve who showed up ten minutes ago spewing salt? I just need to know the PC rules here. I'd take your post, change a few nouns, pronouns and ask, if there is something inside you preventing a discussion of Hamilton?

Again, for the ninth time: People bash Subarus in Subaru threads, Lemond in Lemond threads, Lance 24/7 and guess what? Some people on the internet are allergic to peanuts. Wow.

[e-RICHIE]

If you spend more time in forums or internets, happens all the time.
atvo atmo.
just sayin'.

[andy mac]

If you spend more time in forums or internets, happens all the time. Someone posts a pic of their Colnago with Ultegra components. One might post how they think it'd look better with Campy. Does the one who posted the pic cry to their mommy? Is there a mommy.com on the internet?

You'd know that Lemond threads start with the best of reasons. Someone rode with Greg Lemond here or there and guess what? The pro-Lance, anti-Lemond posters peek into the thread.

The OP bumped into Hamilton and three wanna-be's or whatever's they were. He bite his tongue cause, "His mom said don't say something unless it's nice."

I'm not riding with Hamilton right now. And I have an opinion on him. It is absurd, ridiculous to imply that one cannot post their thoughts on Tyler Hamilton in a Tyler Hamilton thread. What's weak though is a few who cannot debate Hamiton, attack the one who posted his opinion.

Perhaps. Perhaps your personal attachment to Hamilton occludes the notion that...other people have opinions of him too! You felt it was the wrong place and time for another human being to post about Hamilton? Call me on my cell, I'd like you to help me put together my outfit for tomorrow. And gentleman? Are you referring to Steve who showed up ten minutes ago spewing salt? I just need to know the PC rules here. I'd take your post, change a few nouns, pronouns and ask, if there is something inside you preventing a discussion of Hamilton?

Again, for the ninth time: People bash Subarus in Subaru threads, Lemond in Lemond threads, Lance 24/7 and guess what? Some people on the internet are allergic to peanuts. Wow.

Yep, just what the world needs, more bashing.

:argue:

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . Nice to see you here again--atmo! ;) :beer:

The rest of you guys--please cut it out. I'd be thrilled to encounter any pro cyclist--doper or clean--while out on one of my rides. It would be a memorable experience and give me something to think about either way.

I don't agree overall with Viper, but he certainly has a point about the apology thing. But it's definitely not "Insult Monday" on the forum. So everybody please tone it down a notch. I will contribute my part by shutting my big mouth . . . :no:

I thank you, my sister thanks you, and Viper will thank you and me for us not telling my brother-in-law he wanted to marry my sister! :eek: :D

BBD

[e-RICHIE]

. . . Nice to see you here again--atmo! ;) :beer:

The rest of you guys--please cut it out. I'd be thrilled to encounter any pro cyclist--doper or clean--while out on one of my rides. It would be a memorable experience and give me something to think about either way.


ahem - i let you ride near me at the ramble atmo.
sheesh, bee.
where's the love atmo?

[Viper]

Yep, just what the world needs, more bashing.

:argue:

New Rules: :rolleyes:

1). Threads were bashing is not allowed will contain the new Fairness Act. Such threads will contain the legalese, "ATNO: No bashing allowed. All posts within must agree to all. No individual thought allowed. According To Nobody's Opinion"

2). Threads were bashing is allowed will contain the new Unfairness Act. Such threads will contain the legalese, "ATYO. Bashing is really just another man's opinion. We all learned this in first grade on the playground. Individual thought welcomed. According To Your Opinion."

The next person who bashes Lance Armstrong is banned from the internet.

:beer:

[Sandy]

Just how do you type so fast and never make any spelling and/or grammatical errors? And post so often in a thread? And include so many links too? Have you been cloned? 1,000 Vipers....oh boy....now that is scarey!! :rolleyes: :)


Scared Sandy

[Viper]

atvo atmo.
just sayin'.

they can close down gitmo, but not atvo.
just sayin' yo.

[BumbleBeeDave]

ahem - i let you ride near me at the ramble atmo.
sheesh, bee.
where's the love atmo?

. . . that horrible navigational error you made at D2R2 that I promised not to tell anyone about.

Oops-mo . . . :rolleyes:

BBD

[e-RICHIE]

. . . that horrible navigational error you made at D2R2 that I promised not to tell anyone about.

Oops-mo . . . :rolleyes:

BBD


it was the absolut bro.
too much. too early atmo.
ps i was fillin' in for doogie howser when you was nothin'.

[Viper]

Just how do you type so fast and never make any spelling and/or grammatical errors? And post so often in a thread? And include so many links too? Have you been cloned? 1,000 Vipers....oh boy....now that is scarey!! :rolleyes: :)


Scared Sandy

:beer:

I used to be a huge fan of TH. I was bummed out by the scandals. Watched the Athens Olympics live. Oh well. Most of the internet is frothing from the mouth for a Lance positive test. They should think about that when defending Tyler and Landis.

just sayin'

[e-RICHIE]

just sayin'

doodemo -

[ti_boi]

Dude! That is amazing. Love it.

Tyler is a badass....and a dog person.

Both huge pluses in my book.


:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

[jeffg]

doodemo -

Sorry is all you can say .... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHCd5AEN5po)

[Viper]

Sorry is all you can say .... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHCd5AEN5po)

Amazing rendition. Thanks. Bless the Big Man.

[rounder]

:beer:

I used to be a huge fan of TH. I was bummed out by the scandals. Watched the Athens Olympics live. Oh well. Most of the internet is frothing from the mouth for a Lance positive test. They should think about that when defending Tyler and Landis.

just sayin'

I was bummed out by tyler also. i fell in love with the tdf and bike racing long ago. it just seemed refreshing that fairly cool and intelligent bike folks could make a decent living knocking themselves out racing bikes...compared say to greedy athletes in the high profile sports and rock stars. I know that bike racing has always been a tough sport and that riders would do what they could to survive. One of the things i liked about tyler (and also julich and hincapie) was that they were doing well based on hard training, sacrifice, and talent. i really like bike racing. would not brag about the sport...but would always discuss current status of the tdf with anyone who was interested. it was cool (to me) to follow in velonews writeups from tyler about how he was doing and tugboat too. it was a major letdown to me when he was (sort of) busted on drugs. it would not have been so bad if he were the only one. the part i did not like was, it seemed like every year someone got busted and this time (tyler), someone cheated that i really had faith in.

[Viper]

I was bummed out by tyler also. i fell in love with the tdf and bike racing long ago. it just seemed refreshing that fairly cool and intelligent bike folks could make a decent living knocking themselves out racing bikes...compared say to greedy athletes in the high profile sports and rock stars. I know that bike racing has always been a tough sport and that riders would do what they could to survive. One of the things i liked about tyler (and also julich and hincapie) was that they were doing well based on hard training, sacrifice, and talent. i really like bike racing. would not brag about the sport...but would always discuss current status of the tdf with anyone who was interested. it was cool (to me) to follow in velonews writeups from tyler about how he was doing and tugboat too. it was a major letdown to me when he was (sort of) busted on drugs. it would not have been so bad if he were the only one. the part i did not like was, it seemed like every year someone got busted and this time (tyler), someone cheated that i really had faith in.

+1. I wanted to believe. I defended them and the sport. Tyler was like the Richie Cunningham of the sport.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2e4NlnLr28

Looking forward to ToC.

[mikki]

This is a good point. People are complex - Tyler could be both a super nice guy and a former doper - they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. In fact, judging by what I've read, that's probably as good a description of him as there is!

I didn't read this entire thread, but can relate to the above. I was honored to be Tyler's massage therapist for his California aspect of the THF MS fundraiser a couple of years ago, immediately after his "conviction". Met Tyler, his dad (danced with him...a real character) and his female manager (prior to his new racing group). Had breakfast with him and 15 fundraisers. It was a blast!! Must say he was convincing in his sincerity professing innocence. But I've been taken in by a therapist who worked for my business that I trusted totally. It turns out she was soliciting our clients for her own business for nearly the whole time while appearing to care about us. Couldn't see it in her at all. Perhaps it was the same with Tyler, I don't know. He certainly seemed genuine.

Whatever, I think he has done his time and that he is a good person. Perhaps his values have changed now and if he DID dope at an earlier time in his life,if now faced with the same situation WOULDN'T dope. We all make mistakes in our life, don't we? It's just that some mistakes are published whereas the rest of us are able to keep our mistakes relatively quiet.

[Pete Serotta]

Mikki, you need to come to SOLVANG with us..... :)


PETE

[Pete Serotta]

:no: :no: or :butt:

If you spend more time in forums or internets, happens all the time. Someone posts a pic of their Colnago with Ultegra components. One might post how they think it'd look better with Campy. Does the one who posted the pic cry to their mommy? Is there a mommy.com on the internet?

You'd know that Lemond threads start with the best of reasons. Someone rode with Greg Lemond here or there and guess what? The pro-Lance, anti-Lemond posters peek into the thread.

The OP bumped into Hamilton and three wanna-be's or whatever's they were. He bite his tongue cause, "His mom said don't say something unless it's nice."

I'm not riding with Hamilton right now. And I have an opinion on him. It is absurd, ridiculous to imply that one cannot post their thoughts on Tyler Hamilton in a Tyler Hamilton thread. What's weak though is a few who cannot debate Hamiton, attack the one who posted his opinion.

Perhaps. Perhaps your personal attachment to Hamilton occludes the notion that...other people have opinions of him too! You felt it was the wrong place and time for another human being to post about Hamilton? Call me on my cell, I'd like you to help me put together my outfit for tomorrow. And gentleman? Are you referring to Steve who showed up ten minutes ago spewing salt? I just need to know the PC rules here. I'd take your post, change a few nouns, pronouns and ask, if there is something inside you preventing a discussion of Hamilton?

Again, for the ninth time: People bash Subarus in Subaru threads, Lemond in Lemond threads, Lance 24/7 and guess what? Some people on the internet are allergic to peanuts. Wow.