Serotta-Seven-IF-Parlee...together, for just one night

[pdmtong]

Have you folks seen this?
You have the mike: What are your three questions?

Thursday, March 5; 6:00-9:00pm
MEET THE MAKERS
Meet custom frame builder Ben Serotta at a premier and exclusive meeting of four of the world's finest Custom Frame Builders all in one location -- Signature Cycles. Hear the story of their success building the best bicycles on the planet and what Ben, and others, have planned for the future.

The evening will kick off with a meet and greet happy hour followed by a "Makers" round table discussion and Q&A.

Ben Serotta - Serotta Bicycles
Rob Vandermark - Seven Cycles
Gary Smith - Independent Fabrications
Bob Parlee - Parlee Cycles

Schedule a custom bicycle fitting at the event and receive a complimentary, signed and personalized manufacturer's jersey upon delivery of your custom dream ride!

RSVP by February 26th to lorihoefer@gmail.com (203)-485-0500

SIGNATURE CYCLES
28 Bruce Park Ave.
Greenwich, CT 06830
203-485-0500
www.signaturecycles.com

[Smiley]

Invite Kelly Bedford to this event :)

[Ray]

Listen here at the rate Carbone Fibre is taking over the industry, a hand built steel frame and fork one day will cost you a zillion frns. Because the artisans that make these wonderful creations are becoming extinct and one day we will lament their departure.
The thing of it is that by the time "the artisans who make these wonderful creations" are extinct, the vast majority of the "we" that will lament their departure will also be extinct or quite nearly so. It will just be one very good thing that will not longer exist and will be missed by very few. Which seems unfortunate to those of us who appreciate 'em today, but won't matter to those who are left when it actually happens. So, philosophically, is it the proverbial tree falling in the forest with nobody there to hear it? And, if so, did it make a sound?

Just sayin'.

-Ray

[Ti Designs]

My three questions:

1) does Rob Vandermark really exist? I have a theory that he was blown up in an industrial explosion and the only thing left is his nose. They were planning on cloning him from the cells in his nose, but the leader's nose was stolen by a health food store owner who was frozen in the past. Well, I think it would make a good movie... Honestly, Seven Cycles is about 4 miles from Wheelworks, I see Jen and Matt all the time, I see Mike from time to time (that "Make 7-up yours" shirt is perfect for work). I even saw our rep Joe on his bike on a very cold morning. I never see Rob. Rumor around the shop is that he's scouting a new factory in China.

2) If someone askes Gary about the history of IF, will Ben answer for him???

3) When they talk about what they have planned for the future, just how far down the road are we talking?

[Onno]

This thread sounded hotter than it turns out to be. :rolleyes:

[Blue Jays]

It will likely be a packed house.

[rnhood]

I hope Signature makes a recording of the evening commentary, Q & A's, and links it on their website. They have assembled a good group of pioneers there.

[Smiley]

Can somebody ask Bob Parlee about his Asian frame fabricators and how these built bikes stack up against his US made stuff for me please.

[Steve in SLO]

"...exclusive meeting of four of the world's finest Custom Frame Builders..."

Not to nitpick, but do any of them actually build their frames?

[rnhood]

Here is a good article from Pez-Cycling (he often posts on this forum) on the Parlee Z4 and, how it compares to the higher line Parlees. I think he likes it.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=6595

[Climb01742]

"...exclusive meeting of four of the world's finest Custom Frame Builders..."

Not to nitpick, but do any of them actually build their frames?

do you mean nic-pick? :D because nic crumpton does actually build his own carbon frames with his own hands. not to take anything anyway from the "builders" above, but it is a worthwhile distinction.

[old fat man]

My three questions:

1) does Rob Vandermark really exist? I have a theory that he was blown up in an industrial explosion and the only thing left is his nose. They were planning on cloning him from the cells in his nose, but the leader's nose was stolen by a health food store owner who was frozen in the past. Well, I think it would make a good movie... Honestly, Seven Cycles is about 4 miles from Wheelworks, I see Jen and Matt all the time, I see Mike from time to time (that "Make 7-up yours" shirt is perfect for work). I even saw our rep Joe on his bike on a very cold morning. I never see Rob. Rumor around the shop is that he's scouting a new factory in China.


i think ti designs is still bitter about the time his seven was damaged and he felt the repair was not as stiff as the original... :rolleyes:

or maybe it is just because rob doesn't come to wheelworks but is going to signature cycles. it's all about the appearance fees.

[Ti Designs]

not to take anything anyway from the "builders" above, but it is a worthwhile distinction.

OK, let's talk about who does (or did) what. I have the advantage of having been in the bike industry for over 20 years in New England, I know something of the history of the four companies.

I have a number of customers who have frames built by Ben himself. My real introduction to Serotta frames was at the old Bicycle Exchange in Harvard Square, talking to this guy who has a very thick french accent, but it goes away when he gets drunk (If you knew the BiEx you know who I'm talking about). I couldn't afford a Special at the time, so I wound up with the only farmed-out steel Serotta that I know of, the Titan. Not long after that Serotta started to go beyond what most frame builders were offering with their Colorado tubeset and the S bend chainstays. I met Ben for the first time at the factory, a far cry from the modern marvel that sits in Saratoga Springs now, I think the heat for the building and the brazing equipment were one and the same. Anyway, he seemed very proud of this one upper head tube lug that had been carved away. He had the sharp focus on every little detail that any top notch frame builder should have.

Somewhere along the line Ben went from frame builder to frame company captain. The Colorado went to the C2, then C3... Titanium bikes started to show up and the hand writting was on the wall about lugged steel. I met Ben again just as the Colorado Ti came out - I sold serial #0001. It was clear that Ben's focus had shifted to bicycle design. If you think that requires little effort or thought, try this. Take any high end maker and compare their bikes to what they made 10 years ago. Last year I had the owner of Legend Ti #0018 come in and ask how he could upgrade. We looked at the new Legend, the dropouts are different, the seat collar is different - nothing that would get anyone to plunk down $4000. My point is that Ben had a real job to do, and his view of where bikes were going made that possible.

Not so long ago Serotta made the decision to enter the carbon market, I remember the posts on this forum about an all Serotta made carbon bike. This is where I think the heart of the company and Ben's real spark for frame building died. The cost of building the full carbon bikes was way too high. Investers were brought in and long term agreements went out the window. Prices of frames went way up to try to cover the equipment costs, low end frames were dropped and marketing people replaced bike people within the company.


Rob Vandermark - what can you say about Rob? If you look at a Seven catalog you'll find a time line of bicycle firsts. Rob invented the wheel, the safety bicycle, the titanium tube and pretty much every advancement in cycling technology since time began. OK seriously, I first met Rob at Merlin. Merlin, as the name would imply was a magic company. Their staff would come up with some off the wall ideas and build one in the winter months, then some of them went into production and they sold!!! The E-stay was a stupid idea, way too many tubes, way too many welds, and people were buying them up without ever having seen one. With this kind of creative freedom it's easy to see how Rob got a jump on the rest of the industry in asking "what do I really want in a bike?" Seven Cycles broke away from Merlin and started to offer what we not think of as a true custom - custom geometry, custom ride.

Rob has fallen off the earth - we don't see him any more. The Seven line had become your average high end bike line - I guess they have to do that to open more shops, but they have lost a level of communication between customer and shop and builder that I thought was their real strength. Seven is now hot on the heels of Serotta, trying to compete with the likes of Trek and Specialized in full carbon.


Bob Parlee - if you were to visit the factory floor at any of the four builders you would most likely find Bob there the most. Bob is still in the engineering phase that Ben has outgrown or been pushed out of. Bob has also found himself in the balancing act between true custom and the need to compete with Trek. His expectations of retail shops is a bit out there, but of the four he seems to have that real drive that starts someone in frame building. Selling one of his custom bikes is a lot like sticking your hand in a fan, yet I still try.


Gary Smith - can someone explain to me where he fits into this group? Is Ben bringing along his team of investors too??? Honestly, if you want to know the history of IF, ask John Barmack. If you want to know about the progression of their line ask Lloyd or Tyler or Matt - OK, maybe it's best if you don't ask Matt...


There are builders in the area, and there are builders who become more of the industry. Lots of builders never take that next step and probably don't want to. Chris Iglehart is a good example, he showed up on our north shore ride with a custom bell on his handlebars that he welded himself. Ben would never build something like that and Rob would never show up for the ride. Then there are builders like Mike from ANT who's found a market for what he likes to build. He had an open house a few months back with a factory tour which included cookies and hot apple cider, and a bike ride - my kind of event. Peter Mooney is another good example, he opted to open up the retail store so that he can continue to build lugged steel bikes as he always has.

If you're going to talk about the future of this industry with the big four (hey, can someone sneak a scale under Rob's chair, I have a theory about "company growth" numbers), ask the tough questions about competing with Trek and Specialized in this economy. Will the focus on $7000 frames keep them above the water line? Will name building with the $7000 frames and sales of the farmed out bikes work? The smaller builders have found their place. Richard Sachs has no lack of work. Peter Mooney has a retail shop keeping him afloat. AntBikeMike's clients aren't going away... So who's still around 5 years from now?

I've been around for way too long, I keep seeing the same things. It's about the people - people who ride and don't want Treks, and people who build because it's a passion for them. When Chris Chance took his company and moved to New York John Barmack visited a number of local shops and asked if there was enough interest, desire and talent to start a new company. Based on the sales of Fat Chance mountain bikes I told him there was, and within 6 months IF was formed. The people in the bike industry don't really change, they just move around a little. Long after the big money, hot new ideas are spent and gone those same people will still be here. It's not just the builders. Ask SteveP about his history in the bike industry - bring a lunch...

[johnnymossville]

This sounds like an extremely nice time. If only I still lived up in Connecticut. Darn!

[Ti Designs]

i think ti designs is still bitter about the time his seven was damaged and he felt the repair was not as stiff as the original... :rolleyes:

It wasn't a small difference. I gave them three shots at fixing the problem and I asked what it would cost to build me a new one when they couldn't fix the problem.

I like my Serotta...

[Lifelover]

With the exception of Gary Smith, I don't see how anybody can question the 'frame builder" credentials of the rest of them.

While Gary may not have the builder creds, from his post across the hall, he comes across as a extremely smart, experienced and even "handy" guy. With his background, he maybe best suited to predict the future of the cycling business.

ATMO, I would rather go to this gathering than the hand built bike show.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . why not simply go to this event and ASK THEM?

My only beef is that it's on a Thursday night. I'm not working right now--I guess I could drive down there, but I don't relish driving back to Albany at midnight. How many other people who live any distance away will have the time to get there after work and attend?

Why not on a Saturday?

BBD

[slowgoing]

What a great event. I wish it was closer.

[fiamme red]

If you look at a Seven catalog you'll find a time line of bicycle firsts. Rob invented the wheel, the safety bicycle, the titanium tube and pretty much every advancement in cycling technology since time began.These claims are false. It was Greg LeMond who invented all of those things.

http://www.greglemond.com/news.html

Greg LeMond
A Legacy of Cycling Innovation

1978 alloy seat rails

1979 superlight frame

1981 elevated seat position

1984 cycling computer, aero bike, aero helmet

1985 sport shield sunglasses, heart rate monitor

1986 clipless pedals, carbon frames

1987 carbon fork

1989 floating pedals, aero handlebars

1990 drop-in bars

1991 road racing suspension fork, titanium frame

1992 electronic shifting, downloadable bikes

1995 Develops LeMond Racing Cycles - now part of Trek Manufacturing

2002 Founds LeMond Fitness - flagship product is the LeMond RevMaster - Leading Indoor Group Cycling Bike

2005 Introduces g-force RT - Revolutionary Recumbent Exercise Bike

[David Kirk]

I invented the webbernet.

You're welcome.

Dave

[William]

I invented banjos for Squirrels.

http://www.catsclips.com/images/squirrel_with_banjo_mini.gif




William

[GuyGadois]

"...exclusive meeting of four of the world's finest Custom Frame Builders..."

Not to nitpick, but do any of them actually build their frames?

Steve, I believe that Bob Parlee makes his frames. It even says so on the bike :-)

[BumbleBeeDave]

These claims are false. It was Greg LeMond who invented all of those things.

. . . reversed threading on pedals so the left one doesn't unscrew as you ride. The rumor that the Wright Brothers invented that is just, well, a rumor. Greg actually did that 80 years before he was even born. Wow!

BBD

[Kirk Pacenti]

OK, let's talk about who does (or did) what. I have the advantage of having been in the bike industry for over 20 years in New England, I know something of the history of the four companies.

I have a number of customers who have frames built by Ben himself. My real introduction to Serotta frames was at the old Bicycle Exchange in Harvard Square, talking to this guy who has a very thick french accent, but it goes away when he gets drunk (If you knew the BiEx you know who I'm talking about). I couldn't afford a Special at the time, so I wound up with the only farmed-out steel Serotta that I know of, the Titan. Not long after that Serotta started to go beyond what most frame builders were offering with their Colorado tubeset and the S bend chainstays. I met Ben for the first time at the factory, a far cry from the modern marvel that sits in Saratoga Springs now, I think the heat for the building and the brazing equipment were one and the same. Anyway, he seemed very proud of this one upper head tube lug that had been carved away. He had the sharp focus on every little detail that any top notch frame builder should have.

Somewhere along the line Ben went from frame builder to frame company captain. The Colorado went to the C2, then C3... Titanium bikes started to show up and the hand writting was on the wall about lugged steel. I met Ben again just as the Colorado Ti came out - I sold serial #0001. It was clear that Ben's focus had shifted to bicycle design. If you think that requires little effort or thought, try this. Take any high end maker and compare their bikes to what they made 10 years ago. Last year I had the owner of Legend Ti #0018 come in and ask how he could upgrade. We looked at the new Legend, the dropouts are different, the seat collar is different - nothing that would get anyone to plunk down $4000. My point is that Ben had a real job to do, and his view of where bikes were going made that possible.

Not so long ago Serotta made the decision to enter the carbon market, I remember the posts on this forum about an all Serotta made carbon bike. This is where I think the heart of the company and Ben's real spark for frame building died. The cost of building the full carbon bikes was way too high. Investers were brought in and long term agreements went out the window. Prices of frames went way up to try to cover the equipment costs, low end frames were dropped and marketing people replaced bike people within the company.


Rob Vandermark - what can you say about Rob? If you look at a Seven catalog you'll find a time line of bicycle firsts. Rob invented the wheel, the safety bicycle, the titanium tube and pretty much every advancement in cycling technology since time began. OK seriously, I first met Rob at Merlin. Merlin, as the name would imply was a magic company. Their staff would come up with some off the wall ideas and build one in the winter months, then some of them went into production and they sold!!! The E-stay was a stupid idea, way too many tubes, way too many welds, and people were buying them up without ever having seen one. With this kind of creative freedom it's easy to see how Rob got a jump on the rest of the industry in asking "what do I really want in a bike?" Seven Cycles broke away from Merlin and started to offer what we not think of as a true custom - custom geometry, custom ride.

Rob has fallen off the earth - we don't see him any more. The Seven line had become your average high end bike line - I guess they have to do that to open more shops, but they have lost a level of communication between customer and shop and builder that I thought was their real strength. Seven is now hot on the heels of Serotta, trying to compete with the likes of Trek and Specialized in full carbon.


Bob Parlee - if you were to visit the factory floor at any of the four builders you would most likely find Bob there the most. Bob is still in the engineering phase that Ben has outgrown or been pushed out of. Bob has also found himself in the balancing act between true custom and the need to compete with Trek. His expectations of retail shops is a bit out there, but of the four he seems to have that real drive that starts someone in frame building. Selling one of his custom bikes is a lot like sticking your hand in a fan, yet I still try.


Gary Smith - can someone explain to me where he fits into this group? Is Ben bringing along his team of investors too??? Honestly, if you want to know the history of IF, ask John Barmack. If you want to know about the progression of their line ask Lloyd or Tyler or Matt - OK, maybe it's best if you don't ask Matt...


There are builders in the area, and there are builders who become more of the industry. Lots of builders never take that next step and probably don't want to. Chris Iglehart is a good example, he showed up on our north shore ride with a custom bell on his handlebars that he welded himself. Ben would never build something like that and Rob would never show up for the ride. Then there are builders like Mike from ANT who's found a market for what he likes to build. He had an open house a few months back with a factory tour which included cookies and hot apple cider, and a bike ride - my kind of event. Peter Mooney is another good example, he opted to open up the retail store so that he can continue to build lugged steel bikes as he always has.

If you're going to talk about the future of this industry with the big four (hey, can someone sneak a scale under Rob's chair, I have a theory about "company growth" numbers), ask the tough questions about competing with Trek and Specialized in this economy. Will the focus on $7000 frames keep them above the water line? Will name building with the $7000 frames and sales of the farmed out bikes work? The smaller builders have found their place. Richard Sachs has no lack of work. Peter Mooney has a retail shop keeping him afloat. AntBikeMike's clients aren't going away... So who's still around 5 years from now?

I've been around for way too long, I keep seeing the same things. It's about the people - people who ride and don't want Treks, and people who build because it's a passion for them. When Chris Chance took his company and moved to New York John Barmack visited a number of local shops and asked if there was enough interest, desire and talent to start a new company. Based on the sales of Fat Chance mountain bikes I told him there was, and within 6 months IF was formed. The people in the bike industry don't really change, they just move around a little. Long after the big money, hot new ideas are spent and gone those same people will still be here. It's not just the builders. Ask SteveP about his history in the bike industry - bring a lunch...


This one's got an early lead for Post of the Year.

[Paul Levine]

(Why not on a Saturday?)


We have changed the date to March 7th, Saturday, from 12 -3. The details will be changed on the "Events" page shortly. We will also post the details as they develop on our website www.signaturecycles.com

I also would like to personally invite Ti Designs. He could sit next to the other invited speakers and give us his perspective on the industry and its future. I am sure that we would all learn from him.

Paul Levine

[Smiley]

(Why not on a Saturday?)


We have changed the date to March 7th, Saturday, from 12 -3. The details will be changed on the "Events" page shortly. We will also post the details as they develop on our website www.signaturecycles.com

I also would like to personally invite Ti Designs. He could sit next to the other invited speakers and give us his perspective on the industry and its future. I am sure that we would all learn from him.

Paul Levine

I think having Ti Man give his perspective would make for an interesting round table discussion. We have lots of love for Ed :)

[BumbleBeeDave]

(Why not on a Saturday?)


We have changed the date to March 7th, Saturday, from 12 -3. The details will be changed on the "Events" page shortly. We will also post the details as they develop on our website www.signaturecycles.com

I also would like to personally invite Ti Designs. He could sit next to the other invited speakers and give us his perspective on the industry and its future. I am sure that we would all learn from him.

Paul Levine

Thank you so much for changing this! I am confident it will pay dividends for you and all the panelists in allowing many more people to attend. I also applaud your willingness to have a retail representative on your panel. I think it will also add a lot to have the views represented of someone who actually deals with the end user purchaser on a daily basis.

BBD

PS . . . does this mean you will no longer be selling "I Hate Paul Levine" jerseys? ;)

[Smiley]

Thank you so much for changing this! I am confident it will pay dividends for you and all the panelists in allowing many more people to attend. I also applaud your willingness to have a retail representative on your panel. I think it will also add a lot to have the views represented of someone who actually deals with the end user purchaser on a daily basis.

BBD

PS . . . does this mean you will no longer be selling "I Hate Paul Levine" jerseys? ;)


So are u for adding Ed to the round table discussions ?

[Sandy]

Hardly think that Paul Levine is actually inviting Ti Designs to participate in the panel discussion.


Sandy

[Pete Serotta]

[QUOTE=Ti marketing people replaced bike people within the company.
...[/QUOTE]


Ti, I respect your knowledge and opinions, but I can assure you the folks that work at SEROTTA are MORE cyclist than marketing... It starts with Ben and the DNA is consistent right thru Steve, Paraic, Tiffany, Dave, etc..... THEY ARE VERY CYCLIST focused riding and servicing the family of current and future SEROTTA owners...

I will not get into opinions on product and price BUT I have been riding Serottas' since 1977, They have included NOVA, CLUB, MURRAY, TI, OTTROTT, etx..... The CDA, Legend, OTTROTT and Meivici of today expanded on the DNA of the original steel and ti... If anyone wants to find out for themselves, and if they can ride a 57cm, I have a few they can ride and then drink some red and discuss with me,

Yes I am Serotta biased but those who know me, know I shoot straight and sometimes with too little diplomacy,,, Serotta are better today than they were 20 or 30 years ago... BEN does not put out a new model unless he thinks it has something more to offer.....
:beer: :beer: Come drink with me....I still have the glass you gave me at the open house..... (or non open house. ;) )

[maddog17]

I invented the webbernet.

You're welcome.

Dave


so your the guy i blame for...... well everything web related i guess. :banana: :crap:

[Ti Designs]

I also would like to personally invite Ti Designs. He could sit next to the other invited speakers and give us his perspective on the industry and its future. I am sure that we would all learn from him.

There are so many things wrong with that, I don't even know where to start. First, after 20 years in the industry I can honestly say I hate bikes. To me it's all about the rider, and I'm guessing there isn't going to be much talk about riding. My views of the future of this sport have nothing to do with what any of those builders make. I've always pushed for less expensive custom bikes for new riders who don't fit stock geometry bikes - does the name La Corsa mean anything to you? I could care less about the advantages of carbon frames, which means I have nothing to do with the future of the bike industry.

On Saturday I'm riding with the Colavita women's team which I coach. It has little impact on the bike industry, there are no carbon bikes, no claims of being the first to do anything, no door prizes and no appearance fees. And yet somehow it feels more real.

Edit: As I've been called out on this one, I had to give it more thought. The four invited guests have one distinction over other area frame builders - number of frames built. It's a distinction that I don't fit, I've done lug work for a few bikes, brazed a few tubes together, did some pretty nice finish work on a few, but built zero bikes thus far. I'm a cycling coach, I've taken lots of new riders and turned them into good cyclists - that's what I do. My first question to things like the Serotta International Fit Institute is "how many good riders have you produced?". The answer is zero, thus they have no say about what I do. I hold myself to the same standard, when I've produced my first 1000 frames I'll get into it with them.