Leg Speed Goal

[keno]

One of the drills we do in training is a series of 10-minute sets at a comfortable cadence, say 90rpm between the efforts, containing six or so ramp ups, e.g. at 1m, 3m, 4m30s, 6m, 7m30s, and 9m45s, within the 10 minutes. Each ramp up is 5s/5s/5s in increasing intensity. While these can be done in any gearing, I am interested in easier gearing. Today, we were in 53/19.

The best I can usually come up with at peak rpm is in the low 150s in this gearing. It may sound nice but doesn't compare to my training partners Jay @ 170, Steve @ 190 and Chris @ 205. These numbers are on indoor trainers using our own bikes and Cateye 1000s.

As a goal, I would love to improve 5-10% over time. Are there any drills beyond the ramp ups themselves that will help me achieve this goal? Are there form and technique pointers that may help? I understand that talent in the form of muscle structure, fast and slow twitch, has much to do with this, but I am sure that I can improve, even as a slow twitch guy.

keno

[Ray]

Get a fixed gear with about a 65 inch gear and point it down about a 6-8% grade.

I'd never gone through the "bounce zone" which happens somewhere around 125-130 rpm until I got a fixie - I'd start bouncing and then back off. With the fixed, it was like going through the speed of sound - things would get really choppy and bouncy and then you'd break through it and everything would smooth out. I was regularly doing about 170 rpm and got to where I could maintain that for a couple of minutes. I wasn't generating power at those speeds - just trying to stay on top of the pedals. But I noticed the difference when I got back on the geared bike after my first winter of riding fixed. I've heard of track sprinters getting well over 200. I never approached that. I'm not a particularly strong rider, but I did get my cadence up pretty high from riding fixed. I have no idea if I could have gotten to those kinds of cadences without the forced discipline of a fixed gear. But it wasn't terribly difficult with one.

Hint - have a front brake on the bike. You'll use it the first few times you attempt those kinds of rpms.

-Ray

[paczki]

One-legged drills. Go in a much lighter gear, lowest one you got. Pedal slowly for a minute on each side, then spin. Repeat and lengthen.

[fiamme red]

Why would you want to pedal at such high cadences, unless you're competing in roller races?

But Ray is right, if you want to learn, get a fixed-gear and ride fast downhill.

[Ti Designs]

One-legged drills. Go in a much lighter gear, lowest one you got. Pedal slowly for a minute on each side, then spin. Repeat and lengthen.

Grasshopper has learned well... (and he can spin)

First the why: Smooth leg speed is the key to efficientcy at all cadences. Hop on a trainer, warm up, then bring your cadence well beyond your normal cruising speed and watch your heart rate climb. Working on your pedal stroke and pushing up your comfortable cadence over time will allow you to sit at that high cadence with a lower heart rate. So, you're working less to turn the pedals and more to power the bike. A super high cadence is simply an indication that all the transitions from muscle group to muscle group are timed right.

Next, the fixed gear answer: The fixed gear doens't make you any smoother, it simply forces your legs to go 'round faster. Best case scenario, you learn how to relax your muscles as the pedal is on it's way up, so it doesn't lift your body weight off the saddle in what Ray calls the bounce zone. There is efficiency to be gained in learning this because it is wasted energy, but there's a danger as well. This forced fixed gear learning is taking your feet and rapidly spinning them in circles. The body has it's defenses, of of which is called a pull reflex. When the tension on a muscle is suddenly changed it contracts. If you can't stop this from happening, and you can't control the speed of the pedal, the tendon attachment points are often the weakest link.

Now the real answer: Get on the bike on a trainer, put it in the smallest gear you have. First pedal with both feet, watch the angle of your feet, notice that you never point your toes down - same thing needs to happen during the one legged pedal drills. OK, now clip out with one side and put your foot on the trainer behind you. With the other foot, don't think about powering the bike, think about slowly tracing the circle the pedal goes in with your foot - no changes in speed anywhere in the circle. You're going to find two things. First, everything you learned before is now wrong - you were always fighting gravity, now it's helping a little too much. You'll need to control the speed on the way down and your hip flexors need to work overtime on the way up. Second, there are probably dead spots. This is where you start figuring out the firing order of the muscle groups - you need to keep it slow here, but increase the gear. The down part of the pedal stroke gravity is taking care of - don't worry about it. The bottom of the pedal stroke is hamstrings. Think about putting a little bit of force on the ball of your foot and try to pull your foot out of the back of the shoe. This happens from 4:30 to 7:30, it helps to have a mirror next to you to see what's really going on. At slower speeds you can feel which muscle group is working, if your hamstrings are still active past 7:30 you're pulling back on a pedal that's no longer going in that direction. As the pedal is on it's way up the hip flexors are working - as soon as you start this you'll know which muscle group that is. DO NOT overwork the hip flexors when you start this. I take no blame if you can't walk up stairs later. The hip flexors need to fire all the way to 12:00, but the quads need to fire from 11:00 to 2:00. This is kinda like rubbing your stomach and patting your head at the same time, you need two muscle groups overlapping when they fire. With the quads, think of pushing forward over the top, not down. You should hear the sound of the trainer as you accelerate over the top, that sound should be centered at 12:00. Most people find they accelerate the pedal to 3:00. This is like the first time you swing at a baseball pitch, you wait for the ball to get to you and then swing - too late! If you want your quads to center the force at 12:00 you need to think about starting sooner and ending sooner.

With practice you'll find you can trace the pedal circle without any thunking noises or hesitations within the pedal stroke. With a lot of practice you almost have to try to make it thunk. Now comes leg speed work. Do one minute on each side of the one legged pedal stroke drill. Then clip both feet on, do the exact same thing you were just doing - getting the pedals over the top of a circle, but drive out the speed. At some point you will find you start bounging, so back it down a bit. It's one minute each leg, one minute both feet on driving it out, one minute rest, repeat. With each set you'll find you get a little smoother and a little faster.

Yes, the saddle is very uncomfortable while you do this, there's nothing I can do about that.

[Mshue]

[/QUOTE]Now the real answer: Get on the bike on a trainer, put it in the smallest gear you have. First pedal with both feet, watch the angle of your feet, notice that you never point your toes down - same thing needs to happen during the one legged pedal drills. OK, now clip out with one side and put your foot on the trainer behind you. With the other foot, don't think about powering the bike, think about slowly tracing the circle the pedal goes in with your foot - no changes in speed anywhere in the circle. You're going to find two things. First, everything you learned before is now wrong - you were always fighting gravity, now it's helping a little too much. You'll need to control the speed on the way down and your hip flexors need to work overtime on the way up. Second, there are probably dead spots. This is where you start figuring out the firing order of the muscle groups - you need to keep it slow here, but increase the gear. The down part of the pedal stroke gravity is taking care of - don't worry about it. The bottom of the pedal stroke is hamstrings. Think about putting a little bit of force on the ball of your foot and try to pull your foot out of the back of the shoe. This happens from 4:30 to 7:30, it helps to have a mirror next to you to see what's really going on. At slower speeds you can feel which muscle group is working, if your hamstrings are still active past 7:30 you're pulling back on a pedal that's no longer going in that direction. As the pedal is on it's way up the hip flexors are working - as soon as you start this you'll know which muscle group that is. DO NOT overwork the hip flexors when you start this. I take no blame if you can't walk up stairs later. The hip flexors need to fire all the way to 12:00, but the quads need to fire from 11:00 to 2:00. This is kinda like rubbing your stomach and patting your head at the same time, you need two muscle groups overlapping when they fire. With the quads, think of pushing forward over the top, not down. You should hear the sound of the trainer as you accelerate over the top, that sound should be centered at 12:00. Most people find they accelerate the pedal to 3:00. This is like the first time you swing at a baseball pitch, you wait for the ball to get to you and then swing - too late! If you want your quads to center the force at 12:00 you need to think about starting sooner and ending sooner.

With practice you'll find you can trace the pedal circle without any thunking noises or hesitations within the pedal stroke. With a lot of practice you almost have to try to make it thunk. Now comes leg speed work. Do one minute on each side of the one legged pedal stroke drill. Then clip both feet on, do the exact same thing you were just doing - getting the pedals over the top of a circle, but drive out the speed. At some point you will find you start bounging, so back it down a bit. It's one minute each leg, one minute both feet on driving it out, one minute rest, repeat. With each set you'll find you get a little smoother and a little faster.[/QUOTE]

This is very helpful. If I didn't live in Wisconsin, I'd sign up for one of your pedal technique classes. I noticed your comment regarding the toes never pointing down when pedaling with both feet. Just to clarify, then, is the foot to remain level thorughout the pedal stroke so that the toes are never pointing up or down?

[/QUOTE]Yes, the saddle is very uncomfortable while you do this, there's nothing I can do about that.[/QUOTE]

I've done some one-legged pedaling and can attest to this.

[Ray]

Grasshopper has learned well... (and he can spin)
I wouldn't even begin to argue with the substance of anything Ti recommends. I'm quite sure he's absolutely right.

But, I can guaran-damn-tee one thing thought - riding a fixed gear is roughly 3427 times more fun than doing one legged drills. Maybe even 3428. And to quote from what must be some sort of ancient Confucian philosophy, 'if you want to learn the game, you must play for more than you can afford to lose' (I 'spose you can insert a 'grasshopper' here too). Riding a fixie downhill at speed can put you in that zone. One legged drills on a trainer are never any more dangerous than horribly embarrassing!

-Ray

[fiamme red]

I wouldn't even begin to argue with the substance of anything Ti recommends. I'm quite sure he's absolutely right.

But, I can guaran-damn-tee one thing thought - riding a fixed gear is roughly 3427 times more fun than doing one legged drills. Maybe even 3428. And to quote from what must be some sort of ancient Confucian philosophy, 'if you want to learn the game, you must play for more than you can afford to lose' (I 'spose you can insert a 'grasshopper' here too). Riding a fixie downhill at speed can put you in that zone. One legged drills on a trainer are never any more dangerous than horribly embarrassing!

-RayI'll accept that one-legged drills are good for you, but if I had to spend my winter months doing them on the trainer, I'd go out of my mind. :crap:

[paczki]

I'll accept that one-legged drills are good for you, but if I had to spend my winter months doing them on the trainer, I'd go out of my mind. :crap:

You start to look forward to them. Really :banana:

[Dekonick]

OK - Ti Designs makes a lot of sense here. How would you translate this advice for spinscan on a computrainer?

I learned when I first used a computrainer that I actually had dead spots - and did not realize it - much better now, but a long way to go.

What should one look for? Are you better off using a fixed gear on the computrainer while working on your leg spin? How about a spin bike for the flywheel effect?

I am continually amazed at the depth of your knowledge.

Dek

[TAW]

For the sake of discussion, :) if the greatest power in the stroke is produced from (say) 1:00 to 5:00, are we applying power in the upstroke (7:00-12:00) or simply unweighting the pedaling on that side, since the other leg would then be applying power?

Thank you

[mike p]

I'm sure some very good advice here. One thing not talked about is plain old genetics. Anyone that can spin over 200 is blessed with mucho fast twitch muscles. Not to say everyone can't improve.

Mike

[paczki]

For the sake of discussion, :) if the greatest power in the stroke is produced from (say) 1:00 to 5:00, are we applying power in the upstroke (7:00-12:00) or simply unweighting the pedaling on that side, since the other leg would then be applying power?

Thank you

I'm merely grasshopper, but I'm pretty sure Ed will say unweight the pedal. Unweighting is a big part of a smooth pedal stroke. Very Tai Chi.

[Ti Designs]

For the sake of discussion, :) if the greatest power in the stroke is produced from (say) 1:00 to 5:00, are we applying power in the upstroke (7:00-12:00) or simply unweighting the pedaling on that side, since the other leg would then be applying power?


Two answers. The simple one is that the hip flexors are only there to unweight the pedal on the way up. The alternative is to push one leg over the top with the other one, wasting energy in the process. The more complicated answer has to do with the muscle firing sequence and the direction of force that results from it. Humans are ground based creatures, you're always looking to support your body weight on the ground. As a result, you're looking to support your weight on the pedals, and the body doesn't much care which pedal. The body is also wired in such a way that each pivot is moved by two muscle groups, and when one fires the other relaxes. Hip flexors move the hip as do the glutes. Hip flexors fire, glutes relax. When people get to a hill they think "push harder", but what they really do is push down longer. As soon as the hip flexors get into the action this problem goes away. Another part of the pedal stroke that benifits from the direction of force generated by the hip flexors is at the top where the quads kick the pedal forward. If you draw an arc around the knee you'll notice that the curve is in the wrong direction, you're trying to cut into the circle instead of going around it. The hip flexor firing all the way to 12:00 is what allows the quads to start working at 11:00.


As for training devices, I try to eliminate all inertia or flywheel effect. Small gear, low speed, the leg is moved by the muscles, the rider learns a timing sequence. Spinning bikes with 40 pound flywheels are much like fixed gears going down a hill - it's more of a test than a teaching device. In my job I deal with lots of people who do Spinning classe with injuries from the flywheel yanking their legs around.

About the fun factor, I don't see the 3427 times more fun on a fixed gear claim being backed up by the data. Last Saturday I was out on my fixed gear, John was on his, along the way I saw two of my other students on theirs. On the other hand I had 8 people in pedal stroke class on Monday, and while doing an AT test on one rider I noticed the other 7 were doing one legged pedal stroke drills without my having to ask...

[Sandy]

Question- You state that you start with the lowest gear on the bike. I found last year, when using the trainer some, that the lowest gear initially felt too low because the lower the gear the more obvious the dead spots in your pedal stroke. If I would pedal in a significantly large gear, I did not feel any dead spot, although I knew that it existed. Starting in the absolutely lowest gear would be frustrating and discouraging as it was significantly more difficult to make the stroke smooth while using one leg. By warming up and then starting the one legged pedalling routine in a very low but not the lowest gear, seemed easier to do and then as I improved some, it seemed easy to translate into the lowest gears. It is as if the muscle groups remembered what they did in the slightly larger gears and translated that to the couple of lower gears. Do you need to start at the very lowest gear?


Spinning Sandy

[Sandy]

keno,

I would assume that you have a smooth and fluid pedal stroke because of your effort and emphasis on the details of such in your quest to improve your cycling. If that is the case, is it possible that you are more limited than some for future improvement relative to increased max cadence, since you are at a point at which you have an already excellent pedal stroke and perhaps you might be limited more by muscle fiber type or some other inherent factor? Don't know, just asking.

Cyclists gravitate to a cadence that works for them. Smiley seems to always push a large gear at a relatively low cadence. I tend to be all over the place, both in gear size and cadence. I remember many moons ago that you had a very nice pedal stroke at a consistent and reasonably high cadence.


Sandy

[Sandy]

About 5 years ago, I used did a lot of spin classes one winter. I was simply amazed at the cadence some of the women had, some of whom never rode outside. They were using low resistance, but had remarkably high cadence. My cadence in almost all of the classes was towards the upper end of the class when seated. When off the saddle, my cadence was always one of the slowest if not the slowest in the class. My on saddle cadence did not compare to the aforementioned women, a couple of whom seemed to have feet that moved in a blur. I could never understand how they could do it. I would guess that their cadence at times was easily 170, probably significantly more at times. They were normally smaller women who might bounce/move slightly in the saddle but they sure had a super fast cadence.


Sandy

[Ti Designs]

Question- You state that you start with the lowest gear on the bike. I found last year, when using the trainer some, that the lowest gear initially felt too low because the lower the gear the more obvious the dead spots in your pedal stroke. If I would pedal in a significantly large gear, I did not feel any dead spot, although I knew that it existed. Starting in the absolutely lowest gear would be frustrating and discouraging as it was significantly more difficult to make the stroke smooth while using one leg. By warming up and then starting the one legged pedalling routine in a very low but not the lowest gear, seemed easier to do and then as I improved some, it seemed easy to translate into the lowest gears. It is as if the muscle groups remembered what they did in the slightly larger gears and translated that to the couple of lower gears. Do you need to start at the very lowest gear?


Sandy,

Starting in the lowest gear is often harder because what you're doing is removing everything that would mask a less than perfect pedal stroke. There's a reason you find it harder than doing it with just a little resistance. Your body has two feedback systems, one is based on where your limbs are staticly, the other is based on the muscles pushing against something. The first method is pretty poor in most people. Close your eyes, flail your arms around, then stop and try to guess how far apart your hands are - you'll probably be off by more than you think. If you don't push against something you're just not sure where your feet are, or which direction they're moving in. Add just a little resistance and you know where you are and which direction you're pushing in. To start out, I'll use both, the nothing gear being the final test for having a true, round pedal stroke.

[andy mac]

I heard during the Tour Downunder Lance rode hills on his big ring.

Is that normal training for him or is he switching it up?

:beer:

Andy

[keno]

what do you intend when you say "drive out the speed"?

Very helpful information. While I focus on the "pulling up" phase of the stroke regularly, even though my stroke is quite smooth, I haven't done it at minimal resistance. I did a little work on it after reading your posts, and the flaws jumped right out. My coach (the real deal - world record hour 55+, world and national track champ age category, etc.) said that the toughest drill he ever had to do was spinning without a chain.

Thanks for your input.

keno

[keno]

I try not to engage in thinking that speaks of limits. Smooth is nice, but smoother is nicer. There is little that cannot be improved.

Of course I know that there are natural limits from a variety of sources, but in my life I have never ceased to be amazed at how far I am from those limits. When I started training last year I was amazed that I could hit 135; before long I hit 154. Who knows what's out there for me? Intuitively, I know there is much more than I now experience.

keno

[Ti Designs]

Drive out the speed means pick up the cadence evenly just to the point where you start to bounce in the saddle. At that point, with your hands on the tops, pull in slightly, tighten the abs (this stabalizes the hips in the saddle), think of turning circles faster, not pushing harder. You should find from a stable base you can increase the cadence just a bit more.

I would have to agree that zero resistance spinning is as hard as it gets. Back when I was doing roller races the end of my trainer workouts were where I pulled to resistance unit off the wheel, then turned the pedals at 160 RPMs for 3 minutes at a time - I was damn smooth then. Last winter I had a back injury which left me in rebuilding mode all summer, so when I got around to checking how smooth I was it was shocking to see the glitches. I've been working hard on my pedal stroke for over a month now, it's coming back...

If you find you're smooth, but the RPM's just aren't there, it may not be technique. Muscles have a limit to their reaction time and firing speed. I've worked with riders who were perfectly smooth at 120, but much faster than that and they simply could not keep up with the pedals. Keep in mind that the fast cadence is a test of efficientcy within the pedal stroke and means nothing if you can't add power to it. If you can't fire the muscles where they have mechanical advantage, the higher leg speed is pointless. Blame your parents and move on...

[Sandy]

I try not to engage in thinking that speaks of limits. Smooth is nice, but smoother is nicer. There is little that cannot be improved.

Of course I know that there are natural limits from a variety of sources, but in my life I have never ceased to be amazed at how far I am from those limits. When I started training last year I was amazed that I could hit 135; before long I hit 154. Who knows what's out there for me? Intuitively, I know there is much more than I now experience.

keno

Undoubtedly you will be able to improve some for several reasons, probably the most important being your wonderful approach in doing such. I might have the potential to improve my max cadence more than you, as undoubtedly your pedal stroke is vastly better than mine, as are undoubtedly every other aspect of your cycling. Hence, in a simple incremental change, I might be able to improve more, just because I would have so much more to improve on, as the gap would be so much larger. My point being, of course, that the ultimate increase that you might be able to obtain might be somewhat limited because of the gain you have already made with your present smooth pedal stroke. But your intuition says that you can improve significantly more, so I assume that it is the case.

A suggestion- Switch bikes one day on the trainers and see if the results are the same. I know that you use the same computers, but it might be interesting to try it, assuming that you could set up the other bike or bikes reasonably close to what you might want, just for the test.

One last comment- Steve and Chris are really fast, as you know.


Slow Serotta Spinning Sandy

[1centaur]

...but don't blame your parents until you've tried for at least a week :)

[zap]

Snappy spinning Sandy. Come over with both bikes and so that we can analyze and work on your spin and start on that improvement plan so that you will be snappy speedy sandy by springtime.

[false_Aest]

Seriously.

Thanks to Ti and everyone else for this thread.

[keno]

the two bikes I now ride, a Look and a Fuji, are set up almost identically and perform the same way.

If the Steve and Chris you refer to are the ones I mentioned, Steve is faster than just about anyone, certianly 50 or better, and Chris is best in the training room. I can handle him on the road.

keno

[dekindy]

This discussion is very timely for me. I am just starting Arnie Baker, MD's High Intensity Training (HIT™) For Cyclists . His Standard (3-Month) HIT™ Program begins with high cadence drills for every session and the first six weeks includes isolated leg training beginning with a low resistance drill followed by moderate resistance and then low resistance again. I was sure he knew what he was talking about but it is good to find other knowledgeable trainers that agree.

[fiamme red]

Question- You state that you start with the lowest gear on the bike. I found last year, when using the trainer some, that the lowest gear initially felt too low because the lower the gear the more obvious the dead spots in your pedal stroke. If I would pedal in a significantly large gear, I did not feel any dead spot, although I knew that it existed. Starting in the absolutely lowest gear would be frustrating and discouraging as it was significantly more difficult to make the stroke smooth while using one leg. By warming up and then starting the one legged pedalling routine in a very low but not the lowest gear, seemed easier to do and then as I improved some, it seemed easy to translate into the lowest gears. It is as if the muscle groups remembered what they did in the slightly larger gears and translated that to the couple of lower gears. Do you need to start at the very lowest gear?I'm not a coach, but my advice for someone who has been off the bike for a long time would not be to start with one-legged drills. You should start regaining fitness first, then you can worry about your form later.

[Sandy]

I'm not a coach, but my advice for someone who has been off the bike for a long time would not be to start with one-legged drills. You should start regaining fitness first, then you can worry about your form later.

Thanks. You are certainly correct. I plan to simply spin easily for a while, and build that up to say 30-45 minutes per session, with low gears. I am sure that is how Ti wants me to start. After I get some fitness, I will do the one legged drills or whatever Ti Designs says.

THANKS!


Sandy

[fiamme red]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=262800&postcount=25