Need help with carbon frame [Archive]

weisan

12-01-2004, 12:20 PM

I need some serious help from my very knowledgeable Serotta buddies here. Recently, I acquired a faceless/brandless carbon frame, not sure who the framemaker is or what year it was made. The seller has no clue whatsoever. We have contacted some insider folks like Calfee and they suspect that it is an early Lemond prototype or something made by Peugeot. Nobody has a definitive answer to our question. So, if you can figure this out, you are smarter than anyone of them :D besides, this can be fun.

I have one other issue with this frame. It did not come with a seat collar. I have scrounged everywhere on the Internet but couldn't find one that will fit nicely on this seat tube. It has an internal diameter of 26.6 mm. Most of the clamp-type collars out there has too much stack height. I am at a loss as to what I can do in order to clamp a seatpost. As you well know, no seatpost, no ride. :butt:

Below is a slew of pictures for your viewing pleasure...and most helpful insight. Any suggestions? Anybody?!!! Pleeeeeassssseeee.....
Please stop reading the Jerk's posts, let's use some of the bandwidth and our collective wisdom over here to help out a poor soul who just want to ride his bike. :D

Much Appreciated!!!
weisan :beer: :p ;) :banana:

Picture #1: Seat collar
http://www.alicehui.com/serotta/carbonframe/carbon_seat.jpg

Picture #2: Bottom Bracket
http://www.alicehui.com/serotta/carbonframe/Carbon3.jpg

weisan

12-01-2004, 12:24 PM

Picture #3: Dropouts
http://www.alicehui.com/serotta/carbonframe/carbon6.jpg

Picture #4: Full Bike
http://www.alicehui.com/serotta/carbonframe/carbon8.jpg

weisan

12-01-2004, 12:26 PM

Picture #5: Headtube
http://www.alicehui.com/serotta/carbonframe/Carbon5.jpg

Picture #6: Flip side of the bottom bracket
http://www.alicehui.com/serotta/carbonframe/carbon4.jpg

dave thompson

12-01-2004, 12:54 PM

weisan:

I have seen this somewhere, though I can't remember where. I *think* it was sort of a 'do-it-yourself' frame kit, but at my age things have a tendency to get fuzzy real fast. I'll do some searching and see if I can dig it up. In the meantime, you might post your query on the Frameforum, which is a gathering place for frame builders and those who are interested. http://frameforum.net/forums/index.php?act=idx

weisan

12-01-2004, 12:59 PM

Dave, thanks for responding. DIY kit??? Tell me that's not true!!! I would let the neighborhood bully ride this before I go anywhere close to the bike. :p :D Naw, I like to live dangerously....only when it comes to bike stuff, I tend to go wild sometimes. Thanks for doing some more diggin' on my behalf, I appreciate it very much. I will check out frameforum.

regards,
weisan

Kevan

12-01-2004, 01:06 PM

I thing this is a garage built, by the guy next door, sorta thing.

How about... I hesitate to offer... a hose clamp. Or see if there is a model clamp out there that can be bored to fit or then there is always custom built.

Upon second inspection of your seat tube cluster, I think you might be in for real trouble, there's no way to secure the collar to the frame unless you figure out a shim, or resurfacing the cluster to add space for the collar. Good luck on this one!

dave thompson

12-01-2004, 01:15 PM

I thing this is a garage built, by the guy next door, sorta thing.

How about... I hesitate to offer... a hose clamp. Or see if there is a model clamp out there that can be bored to fit or then there is always custom built.
Get in touch with Nick Crump at Crumpton Composite Cycles (http://www.crumptoncycles.com/) and ask for his help in the indentification of your frame.

pale scotsman

12-01-2004, 01:17 PM

Looks like it was built with an internal expander seatpost in mind, ala Singer. Hopefully someone will point you in the right direction unless you want to bond a carbon post in it! ;)

Kevan

12-01-2004, 01:20 PM

I was thinking the same as Pale , but CF tubes ain't built for such.

weisan

12-01-2004, 01:31 PM

Thanks Dave. I just contacted Nick and post a question on framebuilder forum. I suspect this is the first drop into a large pond that will bring me closer to fulfilling my dream of building my own frame. ;)

Pale and Kevan: thanks for looking out to my best interests. hmmm...what kind of superglue or epoxy should I use? :banana:

weisan

bostondrunk

12-01-2004, 01:38 PM

weisan

12-01-2004, 01:51 PM

Have you been drinking again, drunk-man??!! I appreciate you chiming in. ;)

Richard

12-01-2004, 01:55 PM

I can't be sure from your pictures, but does this frame have water bottle bosses or rivnuts? Am I seeing rear brake cable guides on the lugs? I hope so since I don't see them on the top tube. The picture is not entirely clear. Also, have you strung it off to check alignment?

weisan

12-01-2004, 02:10 PM

Hi Richard, I have noticed that two things are missing from this frame which could mean it's an unfinished work. You are right, the bosses are not on the downtube plus the rear derailer cable stopper is not on the chainstay. I know...when I first noticed these last night, I thought that was pretty lame piece of work...heee...heee....I promise I would do much better than that when I start my framebuilder business, any orders anyone??? ;)

None of these "flaws" are catastrophic, short of paying up $$ for someone to fix it, I found a couple of old-school clamps that can easily fulfill the same functions. So, that's not a problem. It's the seat collar that I haven't figured out a way around it. Maybe Nick can help me out. The good thing is he is living in Austin, my hometown. :D All I want is to build this bike up and ride it...and then fall off the road holding on to one of the lug pieces. :banana:

Kevan

12-01-2004, 02:18 PM

setting the seat post to the desired height and then drill a hole thru the frame and post, then thru bolt them together.

I think that's what Sandy did with his 'rot. :D

Louis

12-01-2004, 02:24 PM

weisan

12-01-2004, 02:35 PM

setting the seat post to the desired height and then drill a hole thru the frame and post, then thru bolt them together.

I think that's what Sandy did with his 'rot. :D

Kevan, again, my wife and kids are most thankful to you for ensuring that I live a longer life. ha!

weisan

12-01-2004, 02:35 PM

You could give your knees and your cardiovascular system one heck of a workout by using this as your "ride standing the whole time" bike.

Just think of the grams you'd save - no seatpost, no saddle...

Louis

Louis, what if I forgot sometimes and sit back down, will it cause any irreparable damage??? :confused:

bostondrunk

12-01-2004, 02:51 PM

Not sure what you paid...........but you could re-sell it on ebay and buy a real frameset? Lots of decent frames out there in the $500 range. Like on gvhbikes, etc.

weisan

12-01-2004, 03:08 PM

Not sure what you paid...........but you could re-sell it on ebay and buy a real frameset? Lots of decent frames out there in the $500 range. Like on gvhbikes, etc.

Oh yeah, then it becomes somebody else's problems. :D You are genius, you know that, drunk-man?!!! No offense. I know you are just kidding and trying to be helpful. Naw, what I pay for this frame is not enough to buy even one hoop of the wheelsets that get tossed around here for discussion. If everything else fails, I just keep it for sentimental value and a reminder while I am wielding my future frame to make sure I include all the bosses/cable stops/seat collars etc. :p

zap

12-01-2004, 04:05 PM

Louis

12-01-2004, 04:18 PM

Louis, what if I forgot sometimes and sit back down, will it cause any irreparable damage??? :confused:

Weisan,

I'm not sure how much damage that would cause, but I can assure you that you'd never forget again...

Louis

dave thompson

12-01-2004, 04:27 PM

wow..

Dave might be right. i wonder if its a diy kit from some carbon manufacturer based in ...az(?) I think someone has an ugly tandem kit too.

is that top tube inserted correctly into the headtube lug?

bonding a seatpost might be the only solution.
Zap: That Arizona connection rings a bell.

I wonder if this guy (http://www.arizonatandems.com/) dabbled in solo bikes, or could help weisan identify the frame?

scottaharper

12-01-2004, 04:41 PM

The tubes and lugs look sorta like this tandem manufacturer:

http://www.arizonatandems.com/

I think that he also makes/made singles.

Scott

David Kirk

12-01-2004, 05:05 PM

weisan

12-01-2004, 05:37 PM

Hey There,

Bummer about the frame...I see it as an opportunity to learn something and gain some experience. Why not finish it? You've got nothing to lose and working with epoxy and pop rivets ain't exactly rocket surgery.

I'd reshape the top of the seat tube so a collar fits and then epoxy and rivet on some cable guides and take it out and see how it is.

It's better than staring at it for years until you throw it into the dumpster.

If you need help sourceing anything let me know.

Dave

Dear Dave,

Like you, I see this as an opportunity, not as a problem. That's the reason why I keep doing crazy things like these. Thanks for volunteering your help, I will be knocking on your door soon to get some tips from an esteemed master builder. Can you teach me how to do a terraplane on the carbon tube? ;)

weisan

weisan

12-01-2004, 05:56 PM

Zap: That Arizona connection rings a bell.

I wonder if this guy (http://www.arizonatandems.com/) dabbled in solo bikes, or could help weisan identify the frame?

Thanks Zap, Dave, and Scott. I will give ariZONA a ring. :D

Kevan

12-02-2004, 07:18 AM

contact Calfee and see if they would be willing to sell you some of their cf cable guides.

weisan

12-02-2004, 09:40 AM

Thanks Kevan.

Bob from ariZONA suggested that I look out for a quill type internal expanding seatposts that might fix the problem I have.

Anyone has any idea what he is talking about or where I can find one of those?

Thanks!

bostondrunk

12-02-2004, 09:56 AM

I believe someone also mentioned that the quil/expanding type of seatpost may break the carbon tubing. Those posts were originally meant for steel frames like the Mosers that Gatorade/Bugno used to ride..

Vancouverdave

12-02-2004, 09:59 AM

Depending on the seat tube inside diameter, could an internal-expanding seatpost be used? These aren't real easy to find, and it's not a good match with carbon material but it could be one possibility.

weisan

12-02-2004, 10:04 AM

Thanks Boston and Vancouver, y'all great pals!

I think the quill type seatpost might just work, if only I can find them. I look around on the web but nothing so far. I am concerned about the carbon stress point as well...one possible solution is to use a metal shim insert before putting in the quill expanding seatpost. Not the most elegant solution but better than performing any irreversible aka destructive work on the frame, which I am tempted to do last night (spread epoxy on the seatpost and stick it in there permanently)...like my friend John said: Haste makes waste....I managed to stop myself before disaster strikes. :D

JohnS

12-02-2004, 10:08 AM

Why would you buy a cf frame that you know nothing about? It was cheap, so what, there was a reason for that.

weisan

12-02-2004, 10:25 AM

Why would you buy a cf frame that you know nothing about? It was cheap, so what, there was a reason for that.
John, thanks for asking. Well, before I share the thoughts that went into my buying process, please note that this is entirely personal preference, likes/dislikes, illogical thinking, etc. But I would tell you the price is a factor. It was cheap to begin with. But other things that come into play is my illogical side that is willing to take a fair amount of risk going after no brand names products. I just want to give it a try. As long as it doesn't burn a big hole in my pocket, anything goes for me as far as bike stuff is concerned. As I was explaining to Bill Bove earlier this morning, some of the things that I do may not make any sense to anybody, but to me it does. I cannot easily explain it. It's in my psyche. A while back, there was a post by Climb about exploring some back roads in the neighborhood just for the fun of it...well, I dig that too. :D It's just me. And I freely admit, it's perfectly illogical...and in most cases, simple pure stupidity...but...it makes sense to me...erhhhh! :confused: :crap: :no: I don't know. :p It may seem like I am bring it upon myself all these problems that I am facing now (which is true) but I am also learning alot....like is there really a quill-design seatpost that exisits....possibly getting some **free** framebuilding tips from Dave Kirk....on and on and on...the bottomline is: my style of purchase is not for everyone...it takes a certain madman to want to do it again and again and again...I take them all in good cheer. :D

weisan

Ken Robb

12-02-2004, 10:57 AM

I'm not brave enough to risk a face-plant riding a carbon frame that I know nothing about.

weisan

12-02-2004, 11:10 AM

Thanks Ken. I know where you are coming from...and believe me, that concern is close to my heart too. I will take the necessary precautions...if only I can get to build it up and ride...

Kevan

12-02-2004, 11:57 AM

I'd be real careful about that expansion post against a cf tube...

CF is amazing stuff, but realize those tubes were built to address particular stresses, and I don't believe the post you're considering is one of those stresses it's willing to accept, unless possibly if the expansion takes place at the cluster. I'm willing to bet that as you cinch that post a crack will develop on the ST, basically destroying the frame. I'm with Kirk, you'd be better off trying to wrap new CF over the current cluster and model it to suit a new collar.

If you're strongly fixed on the expension idea, then I would suggest that you consider sendind down a hardwood dowel cut to the correct length first, to keep the post from dropping further in. That way the tension you apply is only to prevent the post from twisting.

weisan

12-02-2004, 01:55 PM

Thanks Kevan for the friendly warning. I take them to heart.

Any more ideas, people? How about some rubbery thingy that will fit both materials? A pipe coupling or fitting? ....come on, let's think outside the box. :D

There's this guy who live across the street. I always see him working on something in his garage workshop. I have seen truckloads of motorcycle riders, drag-racers who come knocking on his door to ask him to do some kind of custom work....maybe it's time to pay him a visit. ;)

weisan

12-02-2004, 08:18 PM

Blastibob, my good pal called this post the "carbon headache"...I like to think of it as "carbon fun" :p

Just on the side, I have emailed Dave Kirk, Tom Kellogg and Kirk Pacenti (also members of this forum). All of them have been exceedingly generous in giving me their time and advice. Thanks to all!

One final note: I happened to look more closely at the Calfee Luna...it looks very similar in terms of the collar design I would need. Can anyone who owns a Calfee Luna verify this for me? I have emailed Craig from Calfee, hopefully he will write back soon. BTW, my outer-to-outer diameter of the seat tube is almost 35 mm, while the inner diameter is close to 26.8 mm.

In the meantime, just for fun, check this out:

A Calfee Luna (found this in Kahuna's old forum gallery)
http://www.alicehui.com/serotta/calfee/luna.jpg

Now, compared to what I need:
http://www.alicehui.com/serotta/carbonframe/carbon_seat.jpg

What y'all think?

dave thompson

12-02-2004, 08:42 PM

Weisan: I took my wifes' Luna off the wall and took some pics of the seat tube/collar area. It appears that there is a CF tube inserted and bonded to the seat tube, and within the inserted tube there is a metallic (aluminum?) sleeve that is also bonded. At the very least to have a seat collar work, you would have to have the top of the seat tube reduced so the seat collar would have a place to grasp. And there would have to be a vertical cut made in the seat tube so when the collar is tightened, so it could reduce and tightly grip the seat post.

It sure looks like it would be much easier for a 'permanent' mounting of the seatpost via epoxy, through-bolting or some sort of combination.

weisan

12-02-2004, 08:45 PM

Hey Dave, I can't thank you enough. No more questions. Tomorrow is a new day and Master Dave Kirk is going to share with me the secrets of building Terraplanes. Stay tuned! :p

weisan

12-02-2004, 10:38 PM

http://www.alicehui.com/serotta/carbonframe/seattube.jpg

http://www.alicehui.com/serotta/carbonframe/seattube2.jpg

http://www.alicehui.com/serotta/carbonframe/seattube3.jpg

slowgoing

12-03-2004, 01:04 AM

Two words: trainer bike.

xlbs

12-03-2004, 09:34 AM

Greetings all. I've been lurking for some years now, but haven't posted for various reasons, most of which have to do with the high quality of others' postings...

I have a suggestion that may appeal with respect to this little frame/seat post dilemma:

1) find an old quill stem and cut off the stem to leave a vertical expanding wedge device. File, grind, or machine the new device so that it will fit inside an

2) old seatpost with thick sidewalls, reamed out to accept the vertical quill, and cut off for appropriate length, then slotted to accommodate a seat-tube collar, fit collar around the bottom section of this modified seat-post.

4) apply small amounts of grease on all appropriate places including the threads on the expander bolt, the inside of the frame, and the inside of the reamed out seat-post.

5) find a shim to insert into the seat collar (in the frame) to the depth of the lug.

6) insert the new/old quill into the shim and tighten the stem bolt gently until this device is firmly affixed to the frame with the depth of insertion to the mid-point or lower point of the lug for maximum resistance to expansion.

7) slide the re-manufactured seat-post onto this vertical "stem/quill" to mate with the top of the (pre-measured for the appropriate saddle-height) frame and tighten the seat-collaronto the split seat-post.

8) ride gently to test your hours of admittedly experimental work.

Feedback?

Enjoying an inch or so of snow in Canuck country north of the 49th.

weisan

12-03-2004, 09:48 AM

Slow: Two words...Thank You.

xlbs: WoW! I know my post can draw out the very best in this group! ...Or was it the inch of snow??? :D You will be happy to note that another great mind lurking here have also suggested this option. ;)
Sounds very doable. Thanks! And please post more often, we can benefit from your thoughts and ideas.

xlbs

12-03-2004, 09:57 AM

Weisan:

glad to add...

weisan

12-03-2004, 03:05 PM

For the benefit of those who are keeping up with this thread, I am posting a suggested solution from Kirk Pacenti. I have shared his concept with both Tom Kellogg and Dave Kirk. Both of them gave it a big thumbs-up. ;) The biggest benefit of this concept is that it doesn't involve any cutting or shearing into the carbon tube which might affect its integrity. Well, the hard part is to find the appropriate titanium tube and a machine shop who can do the work. Dave suggested that I contact Strong or Serotta to see if they can find something in their scrap bin. :D
I will keep everyone posted when this is all said and done....regardless of whether I fail or succeed. Thanks for all your help, concerns, and insight.

tata for now,
weisan

From Kirk Pacenti:
1. Buy a 6" x 1.125" x .065" length of 3/2.5 Titanium tube.
2. Have 5" of the OD turned (or better yet center-less ground) to 26.4mm
(1.039").
3. Slit the un-ground end 3/4" for clamping slot.
4. Bond ground end into frame with 3M Scotch-Weld DP 420.
5. Use a standard 28.6 seat post clamp.
6. Insert a Wound Up 25.4mm carbon post.
7. All done, happy riding.

Kevan

12-03-2004, 03:20 PM

that might work too. :D

Excellent!

dirtdigger88

12-03-2004, 03:22 PM

weisan-

I can see it now- this is going to be just like any project I start. "Look what I bought super cheap- now how much cash will I have to sink into it to make it work. Oh, more that I would have spent on the right thing in the beginning" :p Best of luck, I feel your pain. It now becomes a mission to make the damn thing work. I know I have been there. :crap:

Jason