Rapha

[palincss]

There's been a good amount of discussion about Rapha on the forum. However, I haven't ever seen mention of their selling goods made in China. Thought you might find this blog entry of interest:

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008/06/why-rapha-is-made-in-china.html



Attention : This maybe a spoiler for some but there are reasons to change the mindset.

UK based Rapha is made in China. Now its easy to get all offensive about that. China, while competitive, has also shown in the past how to make poor quality products, sometimes even dangerous to health.

Well, if you're thinking just in terms of manufacturing costs, yes, products should be cheap.

But there's more to the story. Think about it. There are many luxury brands out there that are made in China but they get back home here or elsewhere and are slapped with the most insane prices one'll ever see. I hear one of them is Banana Republic. They're so expensive for the common man that one can sell his house and sit on the street with a new BR Tuxedo.

One side of the truth is how you market yourself, who your customer base is, what your product is and what materials it uses, and knowing that someone will pay that much for it.

Seriously, Rapha seems very much for the upper high class cycling enthusiast. You don't see many Raphas around nor the Space Trooper-like Assos for that matter. So if you don't like it, don't buy it. If you have fashion sense and don't mind putting down the extra dollars, get one for the thrills.

Clearly only you must know whether something is for you or not. Not everything out there will fit you, your face, your body type. Face it, its harsh reality.

The other side of the truth is that operating in China has many advantages, far outside simply manufacturing costs. Its actually a combination of many factors. One huge advantage is having access to internal markets and having a good logistics and IT infrastructure already in place.

You must have a solid reason to go to China, instead of just wanting to take advantage of low labor costs.

Anyway, I also can't imagine why people think just because manufacturing was cheap in China ten years ago, its the same today.

Energy prices are increasing and so are costs. Its a dynamic situation here. Today, you can't see China as the same source of cheap manufacturing that it was a decade ago. Simply said, China's manufacturing competitiveness is coming under fire. Now I'm not going to sit here and explain all the facts, but to get a some clue, you must read "China's Shifting Competitive Equation" (pdf file) by the American Chamber of Commerce in China and Booz, Allen & Hamilton.

I hope you get an idea of where I'm going here. Chinese made products can have quality too, thats one side. And low manufacturing cost is not the only advantage in China, and even those things are changing fast now, thats another side. Still, inspite of these setbacks, the location that is China is pretty darn competitive.

So anyway, quickly, why is Rapha made in China? Simple no-brainer - Its not profitable for them to produce in the UK.


Read this email to the company by a customer. A short, to the point reply from Rapha follows.


Hello,

I am an avid cyclist and a customer of yours, I purchased the tricolor jersey and the merino classic jersey a while back. I was surprised after washing my garment for the first time, to see a tag of which materials were used, and the production land. I was amazed that it said Made in China, I paid top money to purchase your items as I understood they were hand made in the UK. I am also a bit puzzled about the price, how can a jersey be worth 120 UK pounds, when the labor cost in China is about 1 percent of that. Is the mark up just a marketing scheme. I am sorry to say that I will not be shopping from you guys again.

Kind regards,
Raffaele G.



The Reply from Rapha :


- Forwarded message ----------
From: Simon Mottram
Date: 17-Jun-2007 23:43
Subject: Re: Great products but...
To: Raffaele G.
Cc: Enquiries


Hello Raffaele

Thanks for getting in touch and for buying our products.

We manufacture some garments in China because the quality the factories offer there is first rate and they are very reliable producers. The cost price advantage is a secondary issue.

If you've ever tried to have products made in the UK, you'd apreciate how hard it is to get craftsmanship and reliable delivery. I wish it was otherwise.

Our high prices come from the expensive fabrics and trims we use, not from a 'marketing scheme'. We have yet to make a profit (but are working hard at changing that).

Thanks again for getting in touch. If you have a problem with Chinese manufacture I don't suppose I will have changed your mind. But I hope I have clarified why and how we use factories there.

Kind regards

Simon

Simon Mottram
Managing Director

R A P H A
Performance Roadwear
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

http://www.rapha.cc/

[djg]

I dunno. I don't manufacture anything, either here or abroad, but both the initial bit and the Rapha note seem partly reasonable and partly dubious. My impression is that it's just right that China's a big place comprising many manufacturing options of varying quality, including some of high quality. I suppose it's also right that there have been changes, both worldwide and in China, that have had a bearing on the cost of doing business here or there, as well as the cost of doing business and transporting goods around the globe. There remain, for many, all sorts of questions that might be raised about mainland China labor and manufacturing practices. In addition, it seems entirely dubious that cost advantages in Chinese manufacture are merely secondary considerations for GB (or EU or US) firms deciding to move manufacturing there. I'm not saying that folks should not buy Chinese made goods -- I'm sure that there are many such things in my house and a few on my bikes (even if the frames were built in the US). For all I know, the Rapha stuff might be really terrific. I'm just sayin' . . .

[LO^OK]

It's all about greed, or if you prefer the sanitized euphemism, "maximising returns". It is true also that nothing (almost) is produced in the UK anymore which has lasting effect on infrastructure, professionalism and working culture. Hey, forget about Rapha and the English. I remember a couple of years ago an Armani "Collezioni" ready to wear jacket carried "Made in Turkey" label. The jacket's paper said something in the lines of "Produced with the design know how of Giorgio Armani S.p.A. Milano". Clever, no? One can't argue with that.

[93legendti]

Rapha's pockets don't sag. Rapha rocks.

[Kirk007]

Rapha's pockets don't sag. Rapha rocks.

I here it's the bamboo fibers interwoven with the sportwool that gives them their form, and that with climate change the bamboo in China has particularly dense cell structure that makes it ideally suited for bicycle garb for cyclists who are generally regarded as sorta uppity.

[goonster]

The jacket's paper said something in the lines of "Produced with the design know how of Giorgio Armani S.p.A. Milano".

That's like a German-engineered BMW assembled in Spartanburg, SC.

After reading (http://www.amazon.com/Gomorrah-Personal-Journey-International-Organized/dp/0312427794/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232740373&sr=1-1) about Chinese labor in the Campagna Camorristi sweatshops, 'Made in Italy' tags don't really give me those warm fuzzy feelings anymore. :(

[Louis]

What's Rapha?

Never heard of them. Do they make bike stuff?

[40x14]

Here's a link to their $125 gloves (http://www.rapha.cc/index.php?page=42). The rapha site clearly says, "Made in England" when in fact it is not. The Rapha criterium gloves are made in India. A photo is attached to demonstrate.

Although I prefer to buy goods from countries where workers rights are protected, I wouldn't have a major problem with it if the website didn't say the products are made in the UK.

I have a rapha jacket and love it. It is made in Vietnam.

[dsteady]

Rapha's pockets don't sag. Rapha rocks.

I knew there was something we could agree on!
:D

dn'l

[amator]

Country of origin aside, the high(er) price of Rapha coupled with an above average quality product and savvy advertising and marketing has launched it steadfastly into the high end niche.

If it were priced to be competitive to with say Nalini, it would lose the desirability factor.

[johnnymossville]

Made in barefoot tamped dirt floor sweatshops or not, I'd slather myself in the stuff given the opportunity.

[Pete Serotta]

I like the RALPHA stuff but am too cheap to buy it AND CYCLESPORT does not sell it. Since they do not sell it, I have much less temptation....Maybe PAULE will bring us some in SOLVANG :p (free of course)

[Johny]

I like the RALPHA stuff but am too cheap to buy it AND CYCLESPORT does not sell it. Since they do not sell it, I have much less temptation....Maybe PAULE will bring us some in SOLVANG :p (free of course)

Hey you only need one Rapha jersey and one bike, remember? :)

P.S. Since I had bought enough Rapha jerseys when they were on sale (cheaper), I don't feel much temptation either these days. One of the things I don't agree is current Rapha pricing policy. I mean Sterlings are down but they insist that they don't have to adjust prices according to the current currency. And yes they are expensive but still worth it (I mean their jerseys).

[93legendti]

I knew there was something we could agree on!
:D

dn'l
Actually, I was being "ironical". I think their "sport wool", which is 50% wool (or less), is too expensive for me. REAL wool jerseys don't stink after you wear them. "Plastic" jerseys do. I have some blended wool jerseys and they stink after a ride just like 100% poly jerseys. If Rapha's jerseys don't stink after a ride, that's great.

[jpw]

Isn't there some enterprising fellow in Shenzen doing rip-off 'Lapha' on the cheap?

[GuyGadois]

What? I don't believe a word. Next thing they are going to tell us is that our "Made in the USA" bikes were assembled in Taiwan. Don't believe the truth. :no:

-GG-

[amator]

designer marketing=designer prices

[tylercheung]

I think right now (or at least maybe last year) the technical expertise available in China, at least in terms of textiles, is much greater than that available in the US, mostly because since everything in the US was outsourced, the tech and expertise here was allowed to lag. At least that is what the party line is saying. I really like the Nau and Patagonia stuff, but they make everything in China, mostly. Some factories in Taiwan, Vietnam, Japan, except I think anything with polartec in it is made somewhere in Canada. They sell for quite the premium too (sigh...)....

as an aside, the patagonia stuff is probably more bombproof than nau, but the Nau stuff is really awesome - light, warm and really stylish. not hardcore biking but pretty practical, IMHO. I know i'm just foolishly tossing my money away but heck...

[paczki]

Nau stuff is really awesome - light, warm and really stylish. not hardcore biking but pretty practical, IMHO. I know i'm just foolishly tossing my money away but heck...

I have two Nau jackets I love, but I bought them when I thought Nau was going out of business. Didn't they?

[Chad Engle]

[QUOTE=40x14]Here's a link to their $125 gloves (http://www.rapha.cc/index.php?page=42). The rapha site clearly says, "Made in England" when in fact it is not. The Rapha criterium gloves are made in India. A photo is attached to demonstrate.

Although I prefer to buy goods from countries where workers rights are protected, I wouldn't have a major problem with it if the website didn't say the products are made in the UK.

I have a rapha jacket and love it. It is made in Vietnam.[/QUOTE

This is an outright lie (regarding where the gloves are made), just a little different than "marketing".

[daker13]

I really like the Nau and Patagonia stuff, but they make everything in China, mostly. Some factories in Taiwan, Vietnam, Japan, except I think anything with polartec in it is made somewhere in Canada. They sell for quite the premium too (sigh...)....

I like Patagonia stuff too - I marvel at the jacket I got from them now nearly 20 years ago and going strong. I'd like to hear them address their manufacturing, as it sounds out of sorts with the philosophies they're filling their catalogs with.

Too bad they don't make a biking jacket.

[tylercheung]

I have two Nau jackets I love, but I bought them when I thought Nau was going out of business. Didn't they?

they were resurrected by Horny Toad - I think they are a subsidiary now but it looks like most of the original guys and gals are still there.

although it looks like they are still begging for people to buy there stuff so no telling how long round 2 will last...

[GuyGadois]

[QUOTE=40x14]Here's a link to their $125 gloves (http://www.rapha.cc/index.php?page=42). The rapha site clearly says, "Made in England" when in fact it is not. The Rapha criterium gloves are made in India. A photo is attached to demonstrate.

Although I prefer to buy goods from countries where workers rights are protected, I wouldn't have a major problem with it if the website didn't say the products are made in the UK.

I have a rapha jacket and love it. It is made in Vietnam.

This is an outright lie (regarding where the gloves are made), just a little different than "marketing".

+1

[happycampyer]

Maybe it's part of Rapha's retro myopia that they think that India is still a colony of England. :)

[majl]

Too bad they don't make a biking jacket.

I went overboard with Patagonia during their most recent sale. While not labeled as a cycling jacket, this one works really well. Windproof panels on the front and breathable through the back. It fits slim and is long through the back. I picked up both the pullover and full-zip versions.

http://www.patagonia.com/web/us/product/product_focus.jsp?OPTION=PRODUCT_FOCUS_DISPLAY_HAN DLER&style_color=24990-792&ws=true&patcatcode=WEB_SPECIALS&searchkeyrefferer=shop.jsp&encodedsearchkey=OPTION%3DESHOP%26S%3DSALE%26psDri lldown%3Dtrue%26PC%3DSPECIAL%26N%3D4294967289%2B30 016611%2B30017353%26psPageNumber%3Dall

[th_boone]

Yep. I was going to mention that Patagonia jacket as well. They are doing an awesome job of addressing and explaining where and how things are manufactured.

Smartwool will be leaping into the cycling market soon, I hear. Be on the lookout for more outdoor industry companies making the leap.

[rnhood]

$125 for a pair of cycling gloves.....ROTFLOL!!!!

[dsteady]

I like Patagonia stuff too - I marvel at the jacket I got from them now nearly 20 years ago and going strong. I'd like to hear them address their manufacturing, as it sounds out of sorts with the philosophies they're filling their catalogs with. . . .

Patagonia, and other companies who care to, have the ability to contract with Asian factories whose practices are consistent with their own company values. Patagonia has been a leader in this area, which is not surprising. I believe Nau has a similar approach to their garment contracts in Vietnam. The idea that Asian-made products are necessarily negligent of human rights and fair wages is not always true.

Patgonia's labor statement. (http://www.patagonia.com/usa/patagonia.go?assetid=37494)

[caleb]

Patagonia, and other companies who care to, have the ability to contract with Asian factories whose practices are consistent with their own company values. Patagonia has been a leader in this area, which is not surprising. I believe Nau has a similar approach to their garment contracts in Vietnam. The idea that Asian-made products are necessarily negligent of human rights and fair wages is not always true.

Patgonia's labor statement. (http://www.patagonia.com/usa/patagonia.go?assetid=37494)

If you're interested further, pick up "Let My People Go Surfing". Very worth the time, and a great articulation of some of the ethical dilemmas business people find themselves in because of globalization.

As far as companies that source from Asia, I would put Patagonia among the best in openness, self-awareness, and self-criticism. I don't hesitate to buy from them.

[Z3c]

Can someone explain to me why, in this day an age, anyone cares where something is made? If it is made to the quality represented what else matters?
IMHO, made in Asia is more likely to represent quality than just about anywhere else unless it is a small volume crafting situation..

Scott

[GuyGadois]

Can someone explain to me why, in this day an age, anyone cares where something is made? If it is made to the quality represented what else matters?
IMHO, made in Asia is more likely to represent quality than just about anywhere else unless it is a small volume crafting situation..

Scott

For some items Asia makes quality items. But, overall, the quality of items made in China represent the lower end. Why would people care where things are made? I think it is important to as your are supporting the company, business, their manufacturing and the country of origin. Many companies still use labor that would be considered slum wages or slave labor in this country. All it takes is a trip over to China to understand how employees are treated by manufacturers. We are half a world away over here so the problems feel so distant.

[R2D2]

......
IMHO, made in Asia is more likely to represent quality than just about anywhere else unless it is a small volume crafting situation..

Scott

I totally disagree.
I've had more junk from China that doesn't fit together, is crooked etc.
In bike related stuff there are tons of graphics miscentered. Handle bars are the worse. I don't even use graphics to allign bars anymore. I measure and find the center and remark.
It's like they never heard of using a jig to make sure each part comes out the same. Seems to be free form...........
I'll take German products anyday over made in China.

[Z3c]

For some items Asia makes quality items. But, overall, the quality of items made in China represent the lower end. Why would people care where things are made? I think it is important to as your are supporting the company, business, their manufacturing and the country of origin. Many companies still use labor that would be considered slum wages or slave labor in this country. All it takes is a trip over to China to understand how employees are treated by manufacturers. We are half a world away over here so the problems feel so distant.

So what would you suggest one should buy? People jump up and down about stuff like this and then they get in their SUV by themseleves and race from stop light to stop light. Complaining is not a positive contribution. Who are we to judge what the wage level should be in a given industry/country or whatever? We cannot impose our standard of living elsewhere; it simply doesn't work that way. There will always be variance; everyone is not paid the same anywhere, certainly not here. The entire world will never be able to afford a Serotta..
I think people confuse complaining about something with doing something about it. Being sympathetic is not the same as helping. Essentially, this whole thread is pointless as it offers nothing proactive.

[MarinRider]

Plenty of people are willing to pay a premium for iPhones, iPods, MacBooks and Thinkpads that are made in China. Some of these stuff are higher quality than anything coming out of Gemany or Japan.

BTW, everyone singles out Rapha, but no one points out that Assos are no longer Swiss made but are mostly made out of Eastern European countries.

When was last time that Bulgaria was recognized as a manufacturer of quality goods?

Rapha and Assos sell and market quality goods that functions better than, say, Earth Wind and Fire. I have stuff from all 3 brands; it's all good.

[Z3c]

I totally disagree.
I've had more junk from China that doesn't fit together, is crooked etc.
In bike related stuff there are tons of graphics miscentered. Handle bars are the worse. I don't even use graphics to allign bars anymore. I measure and find the center and remark.
It's like they never heard of using a jig to make sure each part comes out the same. Seems to be free form...........
I'll take German products anyday over made in China.

I totally agree that the typical German product is well made but I don't think many folks would be riding carbon bars if they were only made in Germany. Have you price a pair of Schmolke bars lately? That is more like comparing an Audi to a Kia; you cannot have the same expectation for both vehicles.

The key here is that you get to buy whatever you want; if straight graphics matter to you, make your choices from there. For many, they don't care/notice, they just want a carbon bar for $150..

The global economy allows for both which is how it is supposed to be.

[Z3c]

Plenty of people are willing to pay a premium for iPhones, iPods, MacBooks and Thinkpads that are made in China. Some of these stuff are higher quality than anything coming out of Gemany or Japan.

BTW, everyone singles out Rapha, but no one points out that Assos are no longer Swiss made but are mostly made out of Eastern European countries.

When was last time that Bulgaria was recognized as a manufacturer of quality goods?

Rapha and Assos sell and market quality goods that functions better than, say, Earth Wind and Fire. I have stuff from all 3 brands; it's all good.

Does Earth, Wind and Fire make jumpsuits with rhinestones for riding? J/K, I think you mean Earth, Wind & Rider..

[MarinRider]

Does Earth, Wind and Fire make jumpsuits with rhinestones for riding? J/K, I think you mean Earth, Wind & Rider..

Yup, that small place out of Cambridge, not the old school soul stuff

[johnnymossville]

as far as the Rapha Criterium gloves go. They clearly state the following.

...stamped Rapha logo made in England.


Hey, at least the logo designer is from England. Works for me! :beer:

[fiamme red]

BTW, everyone singles out Rapha, but no one points out that Assos are no longer Swiss made but are mostly made out of Eastern European countries.Do you have a source for this? I know that Assos has its "S-Series" (e.g., bib-shorts retailing for $90 (http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/181,1232X_Assos-S-Series-Cycling-Bib-Shorts-For-Men.html)) manufactured in Hungary or Romania, but I thought that they made everything else in Switzerland.

[MarinRider]

Do you have a source for this? I know that Assos has its "S-Series" (e.g., bib-shorts retailing for $90 (http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/181,1232X_Assos-S-Series-Cycling-Bib-Shorts-For-Men.html)) manufactured in Hungary or Romania, but I thought that they made everything else in Switzerland.

Pretty sure my 851 jacket is from Bulgaria.

[erector]

I've talked with a number of assos, and exte ondo reps, and over 90% of their lines are made in "EU" countries, which essentially means their shops on the EASTERN side of Europe, Bulgaria, Ukraine, etc. Lots of stuff may be designed in Swiss-chocolate-land or Spain (for exte ondo), but the manufacturing happens else where.

[erector]

for the original starter of this thread, I had a similar complaint about Rapha a while back, which you can check out. a lot of good replies on that thread.

I have a pair of rapha gloves, they say made in England, the stitching isn't THAT great, but in comparison to others, it's good. I also have jerseys and a jacket, and I do have to say, china or not, the product is good.

[40x14]

My reason for posting the photo is that Rapha states boldly that the gloves are made in England, when this is completely untrue. If they did not make this claim it would not be a problem by me. But the web site has made this claim for about a year and the gloves still say Made in India.

My jacket is made in Vietnam. Boohaa, so what. Well... labor practices in Vietnam may not be so good. In fact there was a big campaign to boycott Nike for it's labor practices in Vietnam a while ago, based on the fact that, "there was difference between the practices in Nike's factories in Vietnam and what Nike told American consumers about its labor practices." (link ( http://www.icmrindia.org/casestudies/catalogue/Business%20Ethics/Nike%20Labor%20Practices.htm)).

So I can only trust that Rapha is trying to do right by it's workforce, but the fact that they make false claims about country of origin already leaves a bad taste.

Are work practices in Eastern Europe and Spain/Portugal any better or worse than in the EU or the US? I don't know the answer to that, but India and Vietnam are both places where the factory owners can set the terms and conditions of labor if they want to.

I'm not denying that quality goods can come from anywhere in the world. It's more of a moral question, if one cares about such things.

[MarinRider]

I am not going to defend false advertisement; it's just wrong and Rapha should correct it.

Staying with cycling products for a moment, Rapha makes some good stuff, so does Assos, and other European high end manufacturers. I try to use the best product that meets my needs, regardless where it is made. Globalization is common practice, it is a reality, and I think we are better off for it.

I worked in developing countries in previous years, lived there, made friends with factory workers, ate dinner at their homes, met their kids. I would say the great, great, majority of them appreciate the economic opportunity. Their lives are better today than 10 years ago, than their parents', their grandparents' lives. Sure they do not have the same rights as we do here; we should encourage them to get there overtime. Sure there are exploitations but resorting to protectionism is not the answer. It is very hard to talk about unionization when one has to worry about feeding your kids through farming and working off the land.

It is a good thing that millions, if not billions of people in Asia and Eastern Europe are no longer in danger of yearly starvation. This happened in the last 20 years, in our generation.

[caleb]

Who are we to judge what the wage level should be in a given industry/country or whatever?

Are you suggesting that we (all of us) are not entitled to judge whether we wish to support a set of political, labor, and gender relations?

I'm willing to say that we all have a responsibility to critically evaluate what we're buying. I'm not the best at it, but that makes me guilty rather than innocent.

[R2D2]

[.

[R2D2]

I totally agree that the typical German product is well made but I don't think many folks would be riding carbon bars if they were only made in Germany. Have you price a pair of Schmolke bars lately? That is more like comparing an Audi to a Kia; you cannot have the same expectation for both vehicles.

The key here is that you get to buy whatever you want; if straight graphics matter to you, make your choices from there. For many, they don't care/notice, they just want a carbon bar for $150..

The global economy allows for both which is how it is supposed to be.
Dude:
You said Asia represented quality. Now you're saying it's just cheap.
Pick one.
As far as graphics, when it is a graphic that is intended to position the bar and is off center, then the product is defective and qualifies as junk.
They could save a lot of money just not wasting the time and effort to put them on incorrectly.

[sloji]

We are half a world away over here so the problems feel so distant.

America is the world.

[Z3c]

Dude:
You said Asia represented quality. Now you're saying it's just cheap.
Pick one.
As far as graphics, when it is a graphic that is intended to position the bar and is off center, then the product is defective and qualifies as junk.
They could save a lot of money just not wasting the time and effort to put them on incorrectly.

Not really; less expensive does not mean "cheap". A Kia will get you where you are going as will an Audi. Quality is in the eye of the buyer; others would rather have a well made bar and measure it upon installation. Lots of folks measure them anyway. I bet your bars are not exactly centered; does that make your installation sub-par? No, if you are happy with your bike that is all that matters. Some folks are willing to spend a lot of time measuring such things, others not so much.. Neither camp is right/wrong.

We are a funny nation; you call bars with poor graphics junk; the next time you are driving, look at the quality of the placement of lettering on American cars..

My only point with respect to this thread is that you cannot condemn a product based upon where it was mfg'd. There are quality items and junk coming out of factories all over the world.

[R2D2]

Not really; less expensive does not mean "cheap". A Kia will get you where you are going as will an Audi. Quality is in the eye of the buyer; others would rather have a well made bar and measure it upon installation. Lots of folks measure them anyway. I bet your bars are not exactly centered; does that make your installation sub-par? No, if you are happy with your bike that is all that matters. Some folks are willing to spend a lot of time measuring such things, others not so much.. Neither camp is right/wrong.

We are a funny nation; you call bars with poor graphics junk; the next time you are driving, look at the quality of the placement of lettering on American cars..

My only point with respect to this thread is that you cannot condemn a product based upon where it was mfg'd. There are quality items and junk coming out of factories all over the world.


My bars are within a milimeter. Bet away. I see bars a centimeter off all the time.
My only point is to point out the highest defect rates and poorest standards of manufacturing are in China.
Dog food
Bad milk
Parts that don't fit
Lead paint
Counterfeit products and medicine.
We have surrendered to the cheapest price.
Quality is not in the eye of the beholder.
It is a measurable fact. Is it built to the design spec or not.
America doesn't manufacturer sheet anymore.
But there was a time when some of the best machinist and tradesmen lived in the USA.

But this is getting us no where.

Peace...........

[tylercheung]

A lot of it also depends on how much the companies are willing to work with Chinese manufacturing partners and how rigidly to spec the production. If they work at finding a reputable builder and spec things appropriately, obviously quality is going to improve. if they aren't willing to put in that time and expense, you get lousy products.

A lot of it is perception...people, esp the german car snobs, like to bash Hyundai but I think nowadays the Koreans are the tops in car production quality, having surpassed toyota and honda recently. Definitely less mechanical failures than the germans.....

[johnmdesigner]

If the Rapha ad shown here in this thread is genuine it would be considered false advertising (in America).
My Assos jacket is indeed made in Slovenia. The Assos tag states that the jacket is "Swiss Design".
As to the quality of products produced overseas it is ultimately the responsibility of the parent company placing the order to assure that the products are being produced to an acceptable level of quality.
As a designer I have had the opportunity of overseeing product production in the US, Europe and Asia. I can assure you that all of these manufacturing zones are capable of producing high quality products. It is the oversight of the parent company placing the order that determines the quality.
If you design something and then just turn it over for manufacture and walk away you cannot guarantee the outcome. :crap:

[johnmdesigner]

If Mattel imports toys to the US with lead paint on them it is Mattel's fault. They either failed to use proper supervision or they put profit above responsibility.
This kind of stupidity can happen anywhere.
You need only to go back 100 years in the history of the US to find tainted milk, meat, and asbestos. It has taken us a long time (and many mistakes) to develop laws to protect the consumer. Most Asian manufacturing countries have only been serving the global economy for 20-30 years and their governments have had little interest in protecting their citizens. The recent tainted milk scandal in China has provoked an outrage in that country that wouldn't have happened without global coverage of the incident. The government has been forced to admit that standards were lacking.

[GuyGadois]

America is the world.

I think there would be a few billion people who disagree.

[GuyGadois]

This kind of stupidity can happen anywhere.
You need only to go back 100 years in the history of the US to find tainted milk, meat, and asbestos..

Or a few weeks to find tainted peanuts.

[sloji]

Did a nice ride with Rapha, like the clothes, need to correct their ad.

[GoJavs]

Anyone have experience with their country jerseys? I'm 5'11" 165 lbs. Average build. Will the medium fit well? Also, how thick is the jersey? I'll be riding it here in Florida in everything from 50 to 90 F weather....Well, I've other jerseys but...

[JohnHemlock]

Can someone explain to me why, in this day an age, anyone cares where something is made? If it is made to the quality represented what else matters?
IMHO, made in Asia is more likely to represent quality than just about anywhere else unless it is a small volume crafting situation..
Scott

+1, why would gloves made by some guys who would otherwise be on the dole in Sheffield better than something made in Jiangxi province?

[whforrest]

The world will always look for the cheapest sources of labor. China is starting to use Vietnamese labor. It is what it is.

At some point I wonder if the us and britain will someday actually have to start making things again. Probably not as long as we continue our #1 export which is debt.

The big trend is "designed in Switzerland"

[Pete Serotta]

There are quality items and junk coming out of factories all over the world.

Yep, depends on the price point and audience that the "maker" is addressing.
:) :confused: :crap: And then marketing makes it "all good"!!!!