View Full Version : OT: Pegoretti
Check out videos 1 and 4 (the other videos I'm sure you've all seen) and check out the new paint schemes for 2005. Enjoy!
http://www.tiramisu.co.uk/pegoretti/index.php
Saluti,
Antonio :beer:
John H.
11-28-2004, 09:36 AM
Dario was here in Marin County CA. this fall.
A local guy that I know had the opportunity to get personally fit by Dario (and get the resulting bike from the fit).
He decided to get an Altec Orbea instead??? What a bonehead.
John,
To the guy that bought the Orbea instead of the made-to-measure (by Dario no less!) Pegoretti, all I can say is, you can take the horse to the water, but you can't make it drink! :no:
Antonio :beer:
Climb01742
11-28-2004, 09:59 AM
friday rode my marcelo. today rode cckmp. thank you, dario!
chrisroph
11-28-2004, 10:12 AM
I've got a 58cm yellow palosanto ridden only a couple of times that I would let go if anyone is interested. Too many bikes! Email chris@northwestlaw.com if interested.
you suck, climb! :p
just teasing! :) That's awesome that you have the opportunity to ride two distinct Pegoretti models! That's so cool!
I noticed in video #1 how Dario welds his frames just a little bit at a time, taking care not to concentrate the heat for too long in one area and that he welds his frames "free", that is, the frames are held in a clamp at the seat tube to allow the free to naturally move as the heat is applied, so as not create any built-in stresses in the frame. Awesome!
Antonio :beer:
Dario made this too...
it's in my basement...uhhh...painted,
dbrk
dbrk,
:no: :no: :no: , I don't think Alberto would appreciate that. ;)
Antonio :beer:
I hope to go all the way to hell clutching this frame in my cold, dead hands. Of course, I will need more arms than Lord Shiva if I am to clutch as many bikes as I would like to take with me to hell. At least it will be warm there. I wonder if it is half as windy as it is here today?
rode Dalberto's bike yesterday, a true pleasure,
dbrk
?, windy in the underworld... where, oh where do yo think all
that warmth comes from?
heres your sunday joke:
bad man dies
sent to hell
upon arrival shrugs _eh _ doesnt seem tooo bad, guys just
hanging out, standing around drinking coffee, eating donuts,
knee deep in human excrement, that part really smells, but hey
donuts + coffee _ like i said doesnt seem tooo bad.
well Hades slides on over + welcomes him pointing to the coffee +
donuts, an invitation to partake .... 10 minutes go by and an old fashioned
work whistle blows, followed by the devils asst yelling out, "OK everyone,
COFFEE BREAKS OVER, BACK ON YOUR HEADS!"
chrisroph
11-29-2004, 09:28 AM
For those who expressed interest in my palosanto, I need another cable to connect my camera to the computer. I'll send you pictures tonight.
dbrk,
:no: :no: :no: , I don't think Alberto would appreciate that. ;)
Antonio :beer:
Why? Since the 70's or even earlier Masis have been made by numerous subcontractors. Heck, I even built a few.
Curt
Why? Since the 70's or even earlier Masis have been made by numerous subcontractors. Heck, I even built a few.
Curt
Heck, and that Goodrich is a _real_ slouch, lemme tell'ya'...:-)
Masis built by Pegoretti, Joe Starck, Curt Goodrich...geez, what is NOT to love about these bikes?
dbrk
round
11-30-2004, 05:34 AM
Is The subject lifted by Anthony very interesting! what do you forum guys think of not knowing were youre frame is build....and then if you have the choice whats more important, the label on the tubes, the country of origin or the quality?Why do the big names have their bikes build by contractors and dont build them them selfs? and why dont they want you to know about it ?
Dario
Andreu
11-30-2004, 05:41 AM
I suspect most of it is in the mind for 90% of bike buyers.
If you think you are on a handbuilt with nice labels then you will feel a little bit more comfortable or go a bit faster.
I have yet to "sample" a hand-built bike (i.e. the same guy who puts on the labels builds the bike), however, so I maybe talking out of my a**e.
A
Do you care that Serottas are built in the Serotta factory? What if all of them were not? Would this matter to you? The quality of the build of course points to the builder but the design of the bike, the fittings, the _brand_ is what you know you are getting. The notion of the one person artisan was largely a fiction until RichardSachs and others invented it from the ideal they had in their heads (of something that largely never existed!) Not even Rene Herse or Alex Singer built all of all of their bikes. This is a recent notion, I submit.
dbrk
not about to tell where my CSi was made but it wasn't in NY, I bet the farm and, btw, we have a farm!
LegendRider
11-30-2004, 07:12 AM
There is a short article on Pegoretti in Velonews from 2001 in the link from the OP. It states that they make 1,000 frames a year. Is that correct? If so, it seems hard to believe Dario can build them all. Does he have help? I have a Fina that I love, but I'm curious to know if Dario's hands actually touched it.
It is my understanding that Dario builds all of his frames and some for others too. How does he do that? Now somemight take umbrage with the idea that they can do things this fast or that fast somehow suggests a diminishment of quality. Quite the contrary. I have a pal who can go into the full scorpion posture (this is a yoga move that puts the soles of your feet on your head) from dead cold. Lots of virtuosity comes this way...fast, perfect from the get-go, looking nearly effortless to those who have not those skills or gifts. Keats wrote the major odes in less than three months. Dario welds like Keats.
dbrk
e-RICHIE
11-30-2004, 07:38 AM
pals 'n gals...
interesting thread you have here; it's close to my heart, too.
so close, in fact, that i went to my blogsite http://richardsachs.blogspot.com/
and found an entry that is relevent enough to cut and paste
here. it was from a CR list thread a few years ago in which this
"who actually built my frame...?" subject had a head of steam.
take your phone off the hook and read this:
i'm miffed at all this preoccupation regarding whether
or not alberto works on or builds any bikes bearing his
family name. i'll extend this to all brands where the
marque is renowned but the goods are made by "the staff".
why do we care? a mr. martin does not make martin guitars.
franke muller doesn't sit at a bench and make his own watches.
no one named hermes toils to make the fine leather
goods bearing that name. etc. etc.
alberto masi is the second generation owner of a near-fifty
year old family business in a very competitive industry. i never hear
stories about faliero making frames; he may once have. and
then as any smart businessman would, he probably had a
plan to have his notions and designs executed by various
staff members over the years. in many examples, the end results
may be superior BECAUSE of this. some people are better
as chiefs than as indians. you wouldn't expect the chef in a four
star restaurant to be cooking your meal. chef means chief. and
as the case may be the chef more likely will create a menu,
choose purveyors, teach underlings shortcuts...no different
than the namesakes of the frame making concerns whose
wares we all like to discuss. none of these guys EVER professed
to doing the work on the frames bearing their names. my guess
is that they can't understand why anyone would think they should.
these people manage their business like any of you who have
a staff working for you manage yours.
it's different for some of us in the usa because unlike our
european counterparts, NONE OF US was born into a
family whose business was bikemaking. we all chased after it
for a variety of reasons; i suspect many of these reasons overlap
for some of us. i have taken 5 trips to italy since i began my
business in framemaking. i have been at all the so-called great
shops: tomassinni, cinelli, losa, picchio, scapin, paletti, romani,
freschi, pogliaghi, derosa, and 3 times to the vigorelli where
alberto goes daily to do who-knows-what...what we do in the usa
bears NEARLY NO RESEMBLANCE to ANY of the shops. most
'framebuilders' i've met with over there can't understand why any one
would care to do all the work that is normally entrusted to the
people on staff.
i do all my work. brian does his. peter does his. and there
are likely others who may be added to this small list. but we're just
blips on the screen. and the screen consists of dozens-no, make that
scores of factories which, for decades, have built some really
nice frames in production environments that many of us have
mistakenly thought were hand made, or custom made, or made
one at a time...i doubt it ever was that way in the first place!
i remember my first trip to milan in 1979 when most of this
would sink in to my psyche for the first time. i couldn't believe
the contrast between what i was doing in connecticut and all
the 'industry' of it all that i was exposed to. however, the one place
that did have the fuzzy feeling was the atelier on via arona where
faliero and alberto went daily to 'give their orders'... unlike
all the others, except for maybe the suburban shop of gianni losa,
it felt like a 'laboratory for art', rather than a machine shop that made
frames-as the others all seemed.
i once thought that the person whose name appears on the frame
ought to be the maker. or should have made some of it. after that first
trip i realized i was projecting my own values on these people
i had never met and had little in common with, excepting that we
all were kinda in the same business.
thanks for bearing thru to the end of this long diatribe.
my question was: 'why do we care who does the work? ',
in case you forgot.
bostondrunk
11-30-2004, 07:51 AM
How can dario possibly build all his own frames, never mind frames for others. I mean, is it possible for one person to completely build several frames by hand in one day??
From the posts I've seen here, between twizzler and bathroom breaks, doesn't it take e-ritchie 2.5 months to build a frame?? ;) :p
Andreu
11-30-2004, 07:57 AM
........in other industries (food) that "brand" or "marque" and what it stands for (values) means a lot to consumers. Sometimes the value is real (quantifiable) sometimes not. Mr Mars never made (even in the original factory in Slough I suspect) Mars bars...but that doesn't actually matter..he set the rules (in terms of quality, flavour etc) and at the time....he bought the best raw materials at the best price to give the consumer a great chocolate milk shake flavour in a filled bar at the best price.
A clever bike builder doesn't need to be there... he just needs to set the rules (and I mean rules in the broadest sense of the word in terms of builiding and creating, managing people etc). He has taught everything he knows about bike building to the guys and girls in the workshop. The really clever guys can lie on a beach in the sun and communicate they´re ideas via internet and phone and source materials from Hong Kong.
Is Mr Purdey (of-gun-fame) still building his guns...they may even be sourced from south Korea?....quite frankly ma' dear I don´t give a damn.
A :beer:
Thanks Sr. E-R for the last post and kind of setting the record straight (or at least my personal record on my planet)!
....and now my Spectrum Super awaits the apologies,
you may send them now or give them at the next gathering.
as always, indebted to those that love the library,
csb
e-RICHIE
11-30-2004, 08:00 AM
BD-issimo writes:
"How can dario possibly build all his own frames, never mind frames for others. I mean, is it possible for one person to completely build several frames by hand in one day??"
the question should be, why does anyone even care?
this sentiment is not aimed at dario-issimo or at any
builder; i am simply wondering about consumers that
feel things are somewhat awry if they "discover" that
their beloved touchy-feely handmade bicycle was made
by someone other than the man whose name is on the
downtube.
W:DW;)W
W:DW;)W
W:DW;)W
W:DW;)W
W:DW;)W
bostondrunk
11-30-2004, 08:01 AM
....and now my Spectrum Super awaits the apologies,
you may send them now or give them at the next gathering.
as always, indebted to those that love the library,
csb
Lovingly made by the boys at Merlin Metalworks.
Actually a really nice frameset, IMHO, and Tom is a great guy. Much better choice than a Legend, and better value. :beer:
bostondrunk
11-30-2004, 08:03 AM
BD-issimo writes:
"How can dario possibly build all his own frames, never mind frames for others. I mean, is it possible for one person to completely build several frames by hand in one day??"
the question should be, why does anyone even care?
this sentiment is not aimed at dario-issimo or at any
builder; i am simply wondering about consumers that
feel things are somewhat awry if they "discover" that
their beloved touchy-feely handmade bicycle was made
by someone other than the man whose name is on the
downtube.
W:DW;)W
W:DW;)W
best (ie. favorite) frameset I ever rode was a Colnago Conic. I have a feeling it may not have been Ernesto who did the welding..... :crap:
e-RICHIE
11-30-2004, 08:07 AM
Andreu-issimo wondered...
"Is Mr Purdey (of-gun-fame) still building his guns..."
not a chance.
that company is owned by the richemont group and can
afford to lose money on 24 or so bespoke guns a year,
all the while being propped up by the other branded
articles also part of the purdey empire as well as from
serving the better good of adding cache to the parent
company's roster.
Andreu
11-30-2004, 08:11 AM
I think I can rest my case.
e-RICHIE
11-30-2004, 08:14 AM
Andreu-issimo,
for the benefit of the others...
http://www.richemont.com/brands/allbrands.php?brand=purdey
no one named winston ever made a winston fly rod
e-RICHIE
11-30-2004, 08:20 AM
wasn't the name a contraction (?) of
the two partner's names???
Hi All,
hmm, quite an interesting thread we have here. First off, I don't think it is right to turn this thread against Dario. From all accounts that I've read (and believe me, I've left no stone unturned) about Dario Pegoretti, his annual frame production is about 500, not the 1000 frames that Velonews took a SWAG (scientific wild *** guess) at. It is entirely plausible that Dario and his brother Gianni can produce 500 frames per annum.
It is my understanding that Gianni handles most of the business end, while Dario focuses on building the frames. Keep in mind that PegorettiCicli is a small, two man shop, that up until about 5 years ago focused on building frames for pro teams as well as doing contract work for other marques. To paraphrase e-richie-issimo, Pegoretti is too a blip on the radar screen, but it seems that now due to the huge popularity of the brand, they are now flying same skies as jumbo jets Colnago, De Rosa, Pinarello, etc. As to Pegoretti's far reaching popularity, just read a quote from the Jan/Feb issue of Bicycling (hi, my name is Antonio and I sometimes buy Bicycling Mag. Hi, Antonio!), "As Ferrari, Pegoretti and Cipollini all prove, a powerful engine and a sexy profile are not mutually exclusive." Selene Yaeger The word's out on the street about the quality of Pegoretti's and even Bicycling has tuned into it.
As to Masi, that's been their business plan for a long time now, to outsource their work to a number of highly skilled artisans all over Italy and the US. It's really no secret, but (Marlon Brando's voice) out of respect to Alberto, I like to keep these things inside the family. ;) Seriously though, the work of Masi and all the other big players in the Italian bike industry is something different compared to the work of an artisan builder.
If I may say so, guys like Dario, Richard, Peter, Roland, Brian, Chris, Tom, etc. are guys that live, breathe and love bicycles; guys that have a passion for the sport and their craft and pour themselves into their work. That's what you are buying when buy an artisan built anything, you buy a piece of that builder's love of their work and devotion to their craft, you buy their skill and their care, their philosophy, opinions and experience about what they do. To me, that's something that can't be outsourced.
Antonio
Antonio, that's well said but real world experience tells me that it's not plausible that one person can build 500 frames annually even if someone else takes care of business matters. Especially when you look at the Pegoretti line that involves many different models and sizes. Even with an outlandishly appointed shop this wouldn't be possible without at least a couple more bodies or decreasing the man hours in each frame. Given what I've seen in the Pegoretti frames, the frames are well made so if annual production is around 500 Dario most likely has a small staff of 2 to 3. With all that said, I don't want this to sound like a slam against Dario. I dig what he's doing. I'm just trying to put a realistic view on this.
Curt
dirtdigger88
12-01-2004, 09:03 AM
So does this mean that Ben didn't build my bike? :confused:
say it isn't so........................................... :crap:
jason
Kevan
12-01-2004, 09:14 AM
should just stand at the end of the production line and leave a greasy thumb print on the top tube of each bike frame so its new owner can relax knowing his steed had indeed been touched by the master. :D
Matt Barkley
12-01-2004, 09:16 AM
Dario can easily build 500+ frames a year. Chill-out peoples! :beer: I average 3 beers an evening, so what is the big deal? You do the math. - Matt
Trust me I'm chilled. What makes you so sure that he can single handedly build 500+ annually? Other than you read it on a website. You know like you've worked in a bicycle production environment. I don't really care who makes his bikes or how many people work there but I can't stand hearing urban legends. Shall we explore the whole Merlin/Lightspeed thing again? <grin>
Curt
Matt Barkley
12-01-2004, 02:13 PM
cpg - urban legends / myths - I could make up a few - but we have other forumites for that. I just know what I know. If you know what these guys are actually doing in their shops from start to finish you know what some guys are capable of. Start to finish a frame like Douglas's takes a few days. You also have paint. E-Ritchie doesn't even do everything - to finish. For some mitering, and finishing work and paint work can be done by others (for most all it is) - Matt
Too Tall
12-01-2004, 02:21 PM
Dario, build a bike for my wife please.
Serotta PETE
12-01-2004, 03:29 PM
Lovingly made by the boys at Merlin Metalworks.
Actually a really nice frameset, IMHO, and Tom is a great guy. Much better choice than a Legend, and better value. :beer:
:beer: Lets discuss this over some drinks...will make quite a debate
ericmurphy
12-01-2004, 03:46 PM
I never assumed, when I ordered my Legend, that it would actually be welded up and painted by Ben (or by Kelly, for that matter). For one thing, I assume that the different disciplines it takes to make a Legend (swaging the tubes, mitering them, welding them, polishing the welded frame, and then painting it) are probably mastered by different people at Serotta, and most of them are people we'll never hear about.
But what I did expect, when I ordered a Serotta frame, was that Ben, and Kelly, and others, had spent a great deal of time, effort, thought, and planning into building my bike. If I ever became committed enough to riding to think I could do justice to one of Mr. Sach's fine machines, I would know for certain that he personally had done all the work on the frame (other than painting it?). But I never assumed that of Mr. Serotta's bikes. However, I trust Ben and his fellows to build every bike they sell with as much care, thoughtfulness, and integrity as they can muster. And every time I take my Legend out for a ride, I can feel the benefit of their efforts in every pedal stroke.
dave thompson
12-01-2004, 03:57 PM
I never assumed, when I ordered my Legend, that it would actually be welded up and painted by Ben (or by Kelly, for that matter). For one thing, I assume that the different disciplines it takes to make a Legend (swaging the tubes, mitering them, welding them, polishing the welded frame, and then painting it) are probably mastered by different people at Serotta, and most of them are people we'll never hear about.
But what I did expect, when I ordered a Serotta frame, was that Ben, and Kelly, and others, had spent a great deal of time, effort, thought, and planning into building my bike. If I ever became committed enough to riding to think I could do justice to one of Mr. Sach's fine machines, I would know for certain that he personally had done all the work on the frame (other than painting it?). But I never assumed that of Mr. Serotta's bikes. However, I trust Ben and his fellows to build every bike they sell with as much care, thoughtfulness, and integrity as they can muster. And every time I take my Legend out for a ride, I can feel the benefit of their efforts in every pedal stroke.
Very nicely said!
bostondrunk
12-01-2004, 04:00 PM
However, I trust Ben and his fellows to build every bike they sell with as much care, thoughtfulness, and integrity as they can muster. And every time I take my Legend out for a ride, I can feel the benefit of their efforts in every pedal stroke.
Have you considered writing for Bicycling magazine?? ;)
ericmurphy
12-01-2004, 06:27 PM
Have you considered writing for Bicycling magazine?? ;)
Is that an insult? :-)
I.e., have you looked at Bicycling Magazine lately?
BigDaddySmooth
12-01-2004, 07:19 PM
This whole subject has produced quite a debate. People glow over their Colnagos, DeRosas and the like and only a fool believes Ernesto or Ugo did the welding. Now on the other hand, I firmly believe Dario buit my Fina, but I won't bet a paycheck on it. Would it be any less if the truth was someone else built it while Dario supervised? I doubt it. However, my Strong and my Della Santa I would make the bet. I personally met Carl and although I've yet to meet Roland in person, I must have talked to him a dozen times so I'm sure he and only he built my frame (someone else painted it). Does that make them better. Heck yeah! :beer:
Keep in mind that although Pegoretti offers numerous steel and AL models, I don't think he produces each model in each size for stock. A call to your local Pegoretti dealer or to the distributer Gitabike will reveal that not that many Pegoretti's are immediately available from stock. I imagine that Dario produces stock frames based upon demand and I would guess that currently the frames most in demand are the Big Leg Emma, Marcelo, Fina Estampa and Luigino.
I don't doubt for a second that all the frames are built my Dario and Gianni, but it wouldn't matter to me one bit IF they employed some extra assistance to help in meeting the demand. I don't think it would take away from the frames one bit IF a few extra hands helped in finishing the frames. IF they hired a person or two to handle the braze-ons and file the frames, that would not detract one bit from the final product, IMHO.
Antonio :beer:
BigDaddySmooth
12-02-2004, 07:47 AM
Antonio,
You got that. It would make no difference to me if someone helped build my Fina.
When are you going to get a DS? His frameset price went up but he is still less than most of the other marque builders out there. And the ride is well, compared to the Fina, if I had to chose, it would be the DS. :rolleyes:
Now that we've settled the issue of brand integrity, as it were (meaning it matters less who is building than that it is built to its standards), I think we are looking at difference in cultures. I think we north Americans (though the Canadians always strike me as eminently more sensible than...well, let's not go there...) tend to think that building fewer bikes means making better bikes. I think the Italians think it is the other way around. Now there's some sense to both views; the first is the artisan concept, the second based on greater volume is "we are so good we can make lots that are just as perfect as the next." Does anyone remember that Colnago video where the steel bikes are on a rotisoirre (spelling is optional on that one...), moving along like an assembly line? I am sure that Colnago though that that was swell, a signal of their superior technology. But that notwithstanding, it's my considered opinion that Dario doesn't build anything like 500 frames a year with the name "Pegoretti" on them Who says 500? Gita? Do you think they really know? No, I think that 500 is said because of this "more is better" notion. I'd venture to say Our Man Dario actually builds far, far fewer and likely does it all himself, that is, with Gianni involved. I know he doesn't paint but that's another story entirely.
dbrk
who thinks fewer is better and that more is better only when better is better
e-RICHIE
12-02-2004, 08:54 AM
"fewer is better and...more is better only when better is better"
dbrk-issimo...
get this on a t-shirt asap!!
e-RICHIE
ps
:cool: :cool: :cool:
:p :p :p
:D :D :D
arrange disorder
Well said brother Douglas. It seems to me the people that are so convinced of the magical number of 500 frames singlehandedly built by Dario haven't actually built a frame before. I'll say it again, I don't care how many bikes Sir Pegoretti builds but urban legends bug me. If people had actual building experience it would be clear to them that this magical number isn't possible without help or by cutting corners. I think Dario does a nice job on his frames so either he works alone and builds less or he has a small staff to allow for the magical numbers. That's just a reality of manufacture. If someone has practical experience or evidence, I'd love to hear it. As a point of perspective, I can't think of one builder in this country that's capable of 500 frames singlehandedly. Somebody used e-Ritchie as an example of a single builder. He's a pal so I'm sure he won't mind if I said but he couldn't even come close. This isn't a rip on his abilities just a reality. Tig construction can greatly reduce build times but that's still not enough to reach the magical number. Now factor in a mix of materials. Different cutters are needed for aluminum vs. steel which slows productions times due to equipment tear down. Throw in a brazed frame and either that's built in a seperate jig or massive cleaning is needed because flux contaminates tig welds like nothing you've seen. It will leave a joint unweldable. All this slows production. Of course, some of this could be avoided by having a staff or a shop that has lots of redundant equipment but builder friends of mine that know Dario say his shop isn't set up that way. So all of this points to either smaller numbers by the solo maestro or larger numbers produced with more bodies. That's just the way it is even in Italy. With all of this said, Pegoretti's are cool bikes but let's attempt to get past the hype.
Curt
Matt Barkley
12-02-2004, 11:30 AM
CSBCurt and all,
"Get past the hype." Yeeeeeeaaaaahhh Boyeeeee!!!. Last year Pegoretti Bros. built 733.5 frames. How do I know this exact number? Hey man!, this is the stuff of legends. Urban and rural Italian Countryside.
Seriously though. I don't know much about anything, but even I can see how (a builder) can built a butt-load of tig and a few brazed frames in a given year. With help cutting and mitering tubes and setting them in jigs, and someone else painting them. Especailly with years and years of experience. Heck - that leaves time for a few rock-star-like vacations and plenty of beer (as I fequently like to mention.) :beer:
I know I know. Who cares how many.? Who cares who is actually building. Who cares how appropriate. Who cares where it is made. Who Cares? Blah Blah Blah. Retro appropriate??. Come on!? Time for a ride.- Matt
I talked to Ben at the S.F. GrandPrix last year and the topic of bike welding came up. Ben mentioned that they had a great demand for CIII bikes and that he came out of retirement to weld some frames together. So some lucky or unlucky recipient out there has a 'true' Serotta.
I have heard that in Taiwan some of the welders do 10 or more frames per day. Of course they are not cutting the tubing of doing any finish work. This was in a Bridgestone catalogue (?) in reference to 'experienced' American frame builders. The author made the point that in Taiwan you needed 10,000 frames or so to get 'good' or at least good enough to command the highest piece commission. The reference was used in advertisement of the latest Bridgestone, which was the MB 0 (zip), a tig welded Ritchie logic tubing bike vs. the normal Bridgestone robot welded lugged bike.
The irony was that Bridgestone had a horrible time with the zip's breaking due to welding problems and they discontinued them after about 1,000 bikes.
I'd take a Sach's any day of the week. My acupuncture colleague used to ride a Sach's bike 20-25 years ago. He got measured at a bike store in his home state of N.Y. and took a chance on a young 'local' frame builder. After 5 years or so of racing and training the bike he sold it for some reason. Currently, he rides a Saratoga frame which is a steel frame that Serotta builds and sells to City Cycles in S.F.
STEEL IS REAL
Cheers,
Kane
the jerk would guess that his pal dario makes at most a few hundred frames a year. dario doesn't employ anyone else, it's him and his brother. 500 hundred is way too high. they are made in batches though so its not like he's doing a steel frame first, then a fina then a luigino...so he makes what he makes, and the difference between a frame dario puts his own name on versus one he puts someone else's name on, is that little bit "extra" that extra 10% as dario put it to the jerk. in the jerk's not so humble opinion there is no finer bicycle marque in the world than pegoretti.
jerk
Matt Barkley
12-07-2004, 10:56 PM
Hear, hear! :beer:
vaxn8r
12-08-2004, 01:12 AM
I don't know squat about who makes how many frames...but I have seen shops with a bunch of Pegs sitting on the floor. They sell them on-line...my guess is waaaaaayyyy more than 500. But just a SWAG.....
shaq-d
12-08-2004, 09:38 AM
ICurrently, he rides a Saratoga frame which is a steel frame that Serotta builds and sells to City Cycles in S.F.
hey, this is interesting information. i was wondering about that, since ebay currently has a saratoga frame which the seller claims is a serotta. i thought it was a fraud, but apparently not.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=22681&item=7118370632&rd=1
sd
Ken Robb
12-08-2004, 11:38 AM
It looks like it is not Colorado Concept tubing--it looks untapered in the photo. I remember Serotta's Classique model of a few years ago which was not CC tubing and this could be the equivalent frame. Pretty nice.
the finest in soviet titanium ben assures you....
vaxn8r,
It's very possible (and likely, IMHO) that the shops you have seen with many Pegoretti frames to sell have been accumulating them for more than one season, after all, Pegoretti frames have been distributed in the States for more than five years now.
Antonio :beer:
BumbleBeeDave
12-08-2004, 09:01 PM
. . . is giving me a headache!
I think Eric said it best . . .
<< But what I did expect, when I ordered a Serotta frame, was that Ben, and Kelly, and others, had spent a great deal of time, effort, thought, and planning into building my bike . . . . . I trust Ben and his fellows to build every bike they sell with as much care, thoughtfulness, and integrity as they can muster. And every time I take my Legend out for a ride, I can feel the benefit of their efforts in every pedal stroke.>>
Well said!
It seems just the tiniest bit anal to me to be giving so much skull-sweat to wondering about whether The Ben himself (or The Dario, or The Luigi, or whoever . . . ) actually welded my frame--UNLESS the builder makes that claim publicly. I see here that e-richie-issimo publicly states that he does all his own work and I don’t doubt him. But are there other so-called “custom craftsmen” who have announced publicly that they do ALL the work on EVERY frame that has their name on it? Does Dario claim this?
Additionally, I’ve been trying to find some way of getting Dario to attend TdFL next summer so that we can find out if he got the inspiration for the Big Leg Emma from looking in the mirror! ;)
BBDave
Not that my opinion is anything but an opinion from a dedicated lover of lugged steel...The latest iteration of Cinelli Super Corsas, whoever makes them, won't win over many who know what they love about lugged steel, not because they aren't nice bikes but because they aren't quite nice enough. What I mean is that hardcore lugnuts either want something quite special (for which they will pay...or not) or they will look on the used market where there are lots (and more everyday) lugged steel bikes that can be had for a song because they are so out of fashion. So you see folks plunking down the Jacksons for the ones that have tons of class and style, like e-richie, dario, Rivendell/Goodrich, Hampsten Giro'88, Spectrum, Mariposa, Vanilla, et.al. (so, so many!! 'Tis the best and worst of times!) or pursuing the honest oldies (especially Masi, Colnago, and that rarest of all Confente). But, to be honest, even at about 1K these perfectly rideable, likely pretty nice, not at all shabby Cinellis are a bit dear for not being special enough, more a neat old decal and cache than anything to make a fella' jump. Just one fella's thought and I have not one bad thing to say about these bikes, having seen two from the GVH and elsewhere in the past few years. I don't know if this makes enough sense.
dbrk
it's not about being retro, it's about riding what you love that makes you really happy, of course...
siena01
12-12-2004, 06:23 PM
Cool subject this one. My wife and I visited the Pegoretti shop this past summer. While on vacation in Venice we took a train into the hinterlands of Northern Italy so Dario could measure me for a frame. Haven't bought the bike yet but that's another story. The real story is that I was able to see the Peg shop firsthand. I don't know whether I would call it -- to use an e-richie-ism -- a laboratory of art but something more like a machine shop gone awry. Blaring Black Crowes, in-process frames everywhere, helter skelter layout, and THREE guys doing what they do best ... building killer racing bicycles. Note -- THREE guys -- Dario, Gianni, and another guy with whom I only exchanged pleasantries not names. I don't know quite how this info fits into the debate but thought I'd share.
CarbonTi
12-12-2004, 11:48 PM
Agree with most of what dbrk mentioned about modern SC's. I have one bought from GVH 2 years ago, bought with no illusions as to receiving exemplary craftsmanship in the build or the finish. Gruppo could have churned these SC's out by the thousands but they still pretty much have the geometry of the Cinelli SC's of yore (I have two Super Corsa's from the early 70's glory days and near as I can tell, the modern SC geometry has a bit shorter chainstay but the rest is as it was). And that geometry still makes for a great ride.
The magic is in the elixir of geometry numbers that Cino, Faliero, Ernesto, Dario, e-Richie and select others have worked up. The construction and presentation are important too but without the geo's to start from you have nothing. So a modern SC isn't very dear to obtain but it brings more ride to the table than many brands of modern bikes with crappy geos.
Of course, you can still take a good bike and screw it up by setting it up wrong but my SC is run with a 140mm 1A so that's crisis averted. My Luigino is set up with a 135mm 1A. Without getting into Stem Wars, these bike really do handle better set up in the way of the jerk. Oh well, my 2 lira.
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