Winnowing the Chaff, Another Era Ends [Archive]

dbrk

11-25-2004, 08:06 AM

The news arrived this week that TA is finally discontinuing the Cyclotouriste crankset, also know by its proper identification ProVis 5 for its five pin rings. This crankset (or its Stronglight 93/4 equivalents) graced many, if not most, great French bikes of the classic era. It fell out of use with modern front derailleur bikes because of its exceptionally low Qfactor and angles; some comment that the rings flex, but that's never been my experience. Then last year Mike Barry discovered a solution using a bit called the Etiole that makes the Cyclotouriste work perfectly on a modern bike. This bit was discontinued before the crankset, so we stocked what was left. I am hoarding one and using one on the new Pegoretti Luigino. It is a beautiful, elegant, not carbon looking thing. If it weren't for Phil Wood, Andre Dugast, and Grant Petersen and a few others (I mean not to list frame builders but parts suppliers/designers, like Brooks, Carradice, etc.), I think I would just week inconsolably.

To say that I am disappointed with TA's decision would raise issues like the election or the future of America or the environment or whathaveyou. This is truly the end of an era and the one we are headed into with bicycles (I promise, no politics) presents so little of interest to me that my views are likely nothing but boring to others. Another ridiculously expensive carbon bit, most likely made from a mold in the Far East. I'm thrilled. I shan't go on except to say that everything I have that is modern without lugs with few exceptions (HampstenMoots Strada Bianca, HampstenParlee Z1, Odonata, IFCJSE, Pegoretti) is for sale. (That is an already ridiculous amount of goodness...) Everything I lust for the future is either old already or lugged steel. That's my taste, not a comment suggesting what others should like (since I've no interest in telling anyone what he or she should like).

There is some good news that goes with a good karmic story. Yesterday I finished a deal that brings me a practically new but made in 1983 Mariposa 650B-wheeled Tandem. This bike looks like a Herse/Singer: custom fenders and internally routed lighting, TA cranks, Simplex 6600 long cage derailleurs, Maxi-car hubs!! Mike Barry says it is perfect. Story you can already tell: Bike geek wants his bride to enjoy riding as much as he does, so he spends a small fortune on a tandem ('cause all tandems new cost a fortune). She, of course, doesn't take to riding and the bike gets out fewer than ten times, to be left in the back of the garage neglected for nearly 20 years. Divorce takes longer than finding out you don't like to ride bicycles. The front on this baby is 61cm, the rear 50cm. Mike will put on new 150mm TA Cyclotouriste rear cranks for Aimee who will just, just, only, maybe fit the rear because the tube slopes and we can put the seat alll the way down (she is reallllly little, ask Dave Kirk, he knows about HelloKitty). The total price of this bike is less than a CIII frame and fork, by a long shot.

On my incoming docket is a restored 1965 Rene Herse, black with gold painted transfers (restored because it was realllly a mess 'cause otherwise you don't mess with an old bike like this) and a new Mariposa "racer" made from 531 oldstock 1" toptube, swoooopy fork, centerpull braze-ons, etc. Hopefully, before I die, Mr Nagasawa will come through. Rivendell's Saluki is a long pestered project. For those of you who believe that 650B wheels are the height of folly, let me say that it is not Grant Petersen's fault. I have spent nearly the past decade pestering, cajoling, and talking to him ceaselessly about making a 650B bike and now we will have one. He's a convert but I'm the zealot. Then there is the project cyclestournesol.com from our pals the Hampstens. I love Serottas and with my TdF lugged CSi I think I have all that I could ever want. (There is the yellow Legend for sale, 60x57.5, very neutral).

I suppose I don't much fit the profile of most folks who hang here, as far as bike preferences, styles, and interests but I've met so many good friends. I'll stay if you'll have me. Have a great Thanksgiving.

dbrk

Smiley

11-25-2004, 08:21 AM

Please post the photo of this unique tandem , looks like a great find and greatter bargin. I hope both of you enjoy tandeming as much as my wife and I do . If we could keep only one bike in our house it would be our Co-Mo .

coylifut

11-25-2004, 09:23 AM

I suppose I don't much fit the profile of most folks who hang here, as far as bike preferences, styles, and interests but I've met so many good friends. I'll stay if you'll have me. Have a great Thanksgiving.

dbrk

Is there really a profile of people who hang around here? I'd say it's more of a continuum, but I've never met any of the fine folks here . You may be on the far side of retro-grouch and others on the far side of racer X, but I'm sure most of us meet some where in the middle. I'm a single speeder who masquerades as a master's hack racer and I learn some thing form all y'all.

dave thompson

11-25-2004, 09:43 AM

I suppose that I am on the far side of old-guys-who-try. Though I did kick my teen-age son's butt in a 200 mile ride a few years ago.

Andreu

11-25-2004, 09:57 AM

........disagree with Mr DBRK but I would say it would be almost impossible to predict the profile of people here. But this is a small point and I hope he continues to post from whichever profile (far retro-grouch or whatever?) he wishes to have.

dbrk

11-25-2004, 10:08 AM

It's a big world and I'd like to think that there's plenty of room for every sort of cyclist, except perhaps those who have terrorist ambitions and the like. I do, however, think we see a preponderance of modernity and zootiness extolled on this Forum. After all, our sponsor is on the leading edges of multi-media bicycle tubing and not given to mere trending or what they view as compromises. I mean, to put it more plainly, that Serotta has not (yet) gone to full carbon or to aluminum for reasons that look like principles involving fit, ride, etc. However, I would expect that the majority here, being both Serotta owners and supporters, may not share my rather backward-looking thinking but _do_ share the more forward-looking zooty-thinking represented by the Ottrott, Nove, and, to a less extent, the CDA, and the whole fork thing. So while many of us have "other" interests and like lots of cycling, one of the more dominant trends I read here day and in out involves Ottrott-style-thinking, F-pick-the-next-number forking, and go fast on "competition" bicycle style riding. Again, I mean neither to praise or bury Caesar, I harbor no resentment to anyone's style or preference but the _shared_ experience here moves in this forward direction (just like the shared experience of the iBOB is frugal, backward-looking, commuter-ish). If you have hung long enough on some lists (like the iBOB which I go back to the beginning with, at least 10 years) you get the ethos. I would say, with honesty and no recrimination, that the Serotta Forum is a big tent with lots of interests and style _but_ that it has a sort of dominant ethos towards this NextLatest SmartSerottaIdea and towards "fast recreational" riding. Some of us mask (or not) our other interests but every community has its "bhav" (as we would call it in Sanskrit), it's feeling/style/dominant rant. In this particular way I find myself likely the far side of retro and not a little grouchy about the trends in the bicycle industry. I've a far greater liking for Serotta's choices because they look a lot smarter and more principled than others (who seem to me committed only to selling the Next Thing). But don't get me on the price of an Ottrott or where things seem to be going in general in bits, costs, etc. So I don't ever personally feel unwelcome here but I find myself reading fewer threads about modern stuff, racing, fitness training, etc.

I am grateful for this place and community every single day, not just Thanksgiving particularly, and I will thank Ben Serotta and Co. at the dinner table tonight 'cause they have brought me friends and joy and I have nothing but respect and admiration for them.

dbrk

jerk

11-25-2004, 10:52 AM

dbrk-
the jerk shares your lament...it came to the forefront when the jerk was assembling his sublime c-50...to the jerk this represents something different than technology for technology's sake. this frameset is a small series of refinements on a design nearly twenty years old...the venerable c-40. it was made by the gigantic carbon fiber company called atr (www.atr.it) which was commissioned by colnago just as it has been by ferrari, aerospecial, etc. to use its great experience with carbon to build a bicycle frame which behaved in a certain way. it does. it is not the lightest thing out there, nor does it attack you with massivly oversize tubes and flares....in fact in it's natural carbon state detailed with white colnago logos it is fairly understated and looks more like the tool it is than an another garish example of colnago latin excess. the point the jerk guesses, is that colnago chose atr and chose atr carbon because it is the perfect material for the purpose of building a modern racing frameset. In building the beauty, the jerk was drawn to silver parts not for aesethtic reasons entirely, that is to say the jerk's aesethitic was hampered and mutated by the notion of functuality. with the exception of the frame and the fork and possibly the wheels the garish use of carbon fiber throughout bicycle componentry does nothing to increase its performance. record shifters feel like plastic and lack the positive shifting charachteristics of their aluminum forbearers....carbon cranks are not any lighter, have forced q-factors to extend to ridiculous proportions and are so prone to failire noe pro-rider who puts out more than 1500watts in a sprint ever uses them. carbon handlebars not only are no lighter than perfectly fine aluminum bars but also do not come in any shape resembling anything anyone who even likes to spend a minute or two in the drops would ever consider riding. don't even get the jerk started on integrated stem/hbar units which when offered in stem lengths consumate with lengths frame builders designed their frames around are paired with handlebars in widths of such a size that the jerk can not imagine the individual in question....
in short dbrk, you know that the jerk and you come from different backgrounds and appreciate things in a slightly different way. the jerk favors like you, the handmade, the functional and the sublime. to the jerk a c-50 frame in natural carbon with its weave showing is just that. with the exception of ADA wheels the jerk can think of no carbon bicycle bit which will ever again adorn the jerk's bicycle. the jerk's pmp cranks are lighter, the q-factor is much lower, the sqaure taper bb much more paractical not to mention frictionless, than any of this out board bearing junk or tiny isis garbage. plus it looks much nicer. a carbon seat post? why? how many have we seen fail? how many nittos or dura-ace posts have we seen fail?
the jerk solved his fork dillemma on his c-50- (too much clearcoat on the fork and the expander plug was causing the steerer tube to swell too much...all solved now) so here's how she ended up:

hset: chris king black (didn't have a silver but the white writing compliments the frame and this thing will out last us all)
stem: stella azzura vice versa magnesium in 140. stiff and strong and white letters. the search continues for the perfect stem though.
hbars: cinelli 65s 40-cm perfect and the way they position the brake levers means the hoods don't have to be up in the air and the jerks big meat claws still fit.
tape: white cork
brakes: dura-ace 7700...silver they look great and work fine/
shifters: dura-ace 7800. the best of what is currently available the jerk thinks. plus they work well with the 65 hbars
bb: pmp titanium just about perfect
crank: pmp compact..you may remember the jerk musing about the inadequecies of the compact. well, the jerk has solved it by keeping the 50 tooth ring and replacing the 36 with a 42. now the jerk has the best of both worlds! he's not spinning out a 50/11 either.
chain: d/a ten
cass: 11-23 d/a
wheels: bontrager 7700 hubs laced to mavic paris-roubaix rims the perfect training wheel.
tires: (what else?) dugast silks 22mm
post: d/a 7700
saddle: arione

there you go.
happy thanksgiving,
jerk

Climb01742

11-25-2004, 11:33 AM

senor, she sounds like a beauty. congrats.

senor and douglas, i can not argue that much of what passes for progress in cycling bits is, in fact, merely marketing. and some, like badly made and weak carbon bits, dangerous. but look beyond cycling...how many new books published are crap? new movies that are dreck? new songs that suck? new anything that waste molecules? but in the grandest cosmic sense, so what? within all the crap are a few new gems. within all the misguided bogus progress is true progress. true masterpieces of literature, filmmaking, songwriting and yes, cycling stuff. in my humble opinion, which can't hold a candle to either of your individual or certainly collective knowledge/experience, is there a better frame built anywhere, by anyone than a (gasp) carbon parlee (or in my case hampsten/parlee) Z1? i'd posit that it is true progress, for me anyway. taken as a whole, it beats anything else i own or have ridden...in ti, steel, alu or any combo. it doesn't mean that all my other frames aren't glorious in their own ways, or that each of them might not do individual things better. but for me, the Z1 is true, real, substanative progress. and for that, i'll accept all the other crap that gets born in the name of "progress". and i think it's always been thus. elizabethian plays, by and large, sucked. then came willie-boy. a lot of dutch painters should have been painting houses. then came rembrant and vermeer. a lot of odious southern hateful crackers were born in my south and then came robert e lee, who in his decision to surrender instead of disbanding and fighting a guerilla war, may have done as much to save america as lincoln did. personally i'll accept the mountains of bad that mankind creates -- regret yes, but accept -- for the few gems that our urge to explore, redefine, push, noodle and create also give us. douglas, in all humility and with true affection i gotta say, dude, lighten up. as those artists turned musicians from RISD once said, same as it ever was. ;)

dbrk

11-25-2004, 11:38 AM

Actually, it is the Senor's informed and passionate conviction that has made me open to the C50 page about a million times these past few weeks. I get that these are different. The Cycling Plus review noted that the bike too was nothing like the C40 even if it is an improvement and evolution (always a good idea in my little world...incremental better, I say, is the Testuto Aubrey (ficticious giant tortoise, see Patrick O'Brian) method of progress.) It is more money than I will spend right now (likely ever) but who knows, maybe there is a deal out there I can't refuse. I only break the 11th Commandment ('Thou Shalt Not Pay Retail...') gleefully when I just can't live without "it." Like those Dugast sew-ups. I mean, if I am going to go to such folly as to ride sew-ups when I actually think really nice clinchers are just fine, well, I might as well get nuts, lose all sensibility, shame, and sanity, and just go for it. I don't feel that way about many things, but I do feel that way about Dugast tubulars, Maxi-car hubs (if I can ever find any more, though I do have a stash...), and anything that Phil Wood makes. Nitto gives you all of that quality without any of that price, if you know what I mean.

Still, I respect the jerk's well-reasoned love of race bikes. Heck, he is faster now (in his self-acknowledged not as fast as he once was incarnation) than I _ever_ was and that would be about 1975 when I could actually win a race (and did). I like real race bikes and modern things when they just beat us down with amazingly well-reasoned ideas. It's that so much of this comes at the expense of other good ideas that makes me quote scripture, "And he wept...".

jerkpal, please post pictures of your C50. I wanna look even if I can't bring myself to spend...

dbrk

Zard

11-25-2004, 11:54 AM

DBRK

Sounds like a case of forumitis, in other words too much forum. You need a much needed break. Take some time off, tend to your family and bikes, get hunkered down for the winter, etc. You'll feel better.

This is a consumer oriented society...and this forum mirrors a lot of what is good and also bad about the way we live. For better or worse, alot of conversations here seem to be either complaints about a product, comparing frames or about the latest and greatest new doodad to make us go faster.

At times, it overcomplicates/overwhelms the simple and joyful act of riding a bicycle.

Personally, I love to read your writings and your perspective, no matter the topic, so I hope you don't give up on this place.

Happy Thanksgiving.

vaxn8r

11-25-2004, 06:03 PM

I, for one, resent the implications thrown down in this thread. I like ALL kinds of bikes from all eras. As long as they're race bikes. Heh..... ;) ;)

Where would this forum be without Jerk and DBRK? Not a very fun place to be. Thanks to everyone for sticking around and putting up with the more mundane of us....like me.

Peace to all.

dirtdigger88

11-25-2004, 09:22 PM

Douglas,

Let me just say this- one year ago when I joined this fourm I knew nothing of the bike you speak so fondly of. Now- after having read your many post and visiting your home and seeing your collection for myself I have a new found love for cycling. Luggs look cool- quil stems don't look old- most of all- bikes are just plain fun :) Then there is Mr. Jerk- who has opened my eyes and made me question many of the ideas I once had on cycling. I could continue to name off other fine folks from this fourm but you all get what I am saying. I came here looking for info on a bike and I met a motley group of FRIENDS- and that folks is the one constant that we all can share- our love for two wheelers!! Happy Thanksgiving.

Jason

dbrk

11-25-2004, 09:38 PM

In the interest of loving modernity (since I started this thread with the obiturary of the TA ProVis 5, which I gotta tell ya' is about as bad a bit of news as I have heard in a long time...call me sensitive, obsessive, or whatever, I promise to lighten up...really), I was wondering if Senor Jerk could explain the difference between Ernesto's 50th Anniversary C50 that is monocoque and the new C50 HM. Is his significant? Anyone know? I mean, I know what the websites say but that's so much stuff.

I love bikes just too much not to love them all. Thanks for the kind words too from such an august gathering.

dbrk

M_A_Martin

11-25-2004, 10:57 PM

Oh hold it...they're plastic....sort of like those carbon fiber bikes ;)

Douglas,
I started reading this forum to learn things about Serotta bikes, and I've found over time that posts by yourself, dnovo, the jerk, BigMac, and countless others that don't necessarily toe the Serotta line have opened doors to different worlds in bikes that I might not want to live in, but are very interesting to visit and I've learned all sorts of things that I wouldn't have otherwise. Thank you for that.

If subscription to the modern race bike ethos is required for admission here...I think they'll be kicking me out as well...those who have ridden with me know I'm not a racer girl, and my bike, where I'm sure it is raceable...would need a different motor.

Forum thoughts:
Five years ago, if anyone had asked me if I'd get involved in some internet group that met on the 'net and then got together at various gatherings around the country to discuss the topic of the computer group...I would have laughed...No. I am NOT a geek!

This year I've traveled to visit with friends from this forum twice. Once to the Serotta Open House, partially because Ben and Co. are the reason we're all here. The second trip was to your lovely home to meet another bunch of forumites. The second gathering was a little looser, flowing, and interesting as some people with very different attitudes about their bikes showed up to ride together on those beautiful New York Hills. I learned things at both gatherings. I think it's the difference in opinion that makes this an interesting forum to learn from. If every unique attitude left...I don't think there would be anyone here.

So...don't go Douglas, the variety will die!

Andreu

11-26-2004, 03:56 AM

thread that deserves to be no. 1 in the Forum of hall of fame. But probably won't.

BTW ..bought a frame... Peg. Marcello (black & white) the other day based on the retro-grouch-rantings of Srs DBRK and Jerk (Do they have shares in this company?) . I too am, thinking about how I can get as much silver and shiny bits (crome?) on a frame.

A - happily fattening and for the moment non-competetive (and longing for my old chromed Tommassini)
;)

Sandy

11-26-2004, 06:39 AM

Douglas,

Clearly, there would be no Serotta and no Serotta forum if all Serotta did was produce lugged steel bikes, since the demand is simply not there. Sachs and Kirk, one man operations, Spectrum, two men operations, and others, exist because they produce outstanding bicycles, with relatively little overhead, with a very small number of units produced. Serotta must innovate and produce bikes that will sell in adequate numbers simply to be viable. A tig welded steel bike or mixed material bike simply did not exist just a few years ago for Serotta. Fortunately, Serotta is still ahead of the curve in its thinking.

I do think that you are a bit unfair relative to the Ottrott. Clearly, you would never purchase an Ottrott because of its price and perceived value to you relative to what else exists from which to choose. I respect that. But the "forward- looking zooty- thinking represented by the Ottrott..." produced a bike that works remarkably well. It has a wonderful balance of cycling characteristics. I, unlike you, own only two bicycles, and I chose the Ottrott for two reasons- the test ride and the remarkable enjoyment of riding my CSi. Zoot meant and means nothing to me. My limit is two bicycles. Your single expenditure limit on a bicycle is less than the cost of an Ottrott. But my expenditure on all of my bicycles (2) is significantly less than your total expenditure. To each his own.

Serotta does what it does, and in a very classy way, to exist, and produce some of the finest bicycles in the world.

Obviously, dbrk, you are easily one of the most respected, articulate, knowledgeable, and helpful individuals on the forum. Losing you as a poster would be very meaningful. You give remarkable content, some of which would undoubtedly never be replaced by anyone. I really believe that you have no real intent to leave us, but are simply discouraged by the direction in which the world of cycling is headed. You should realize that most of us do not have the years of experience in cycling as you, BigMac, and others have and we need individuals like you two to educate us in areas in which some of us know very little.

If I do not read continual posts from you, I will kidnap Mira, the wonder dog, and hold her until the posts appear again.

Sandy

dbrk

11-26-2004, 08:05 AM

First, thanks folks for the kind words. My lament, as senor jerk put it, was more directed towards the demise of the TA ProVis 5 rather than myself (at least I think so...:-)...(I still refuse to use the paste in Smilies on the right there...likely because they are on the right....but I am not averse to double parantheses and ellipses...)). I cannot but be grateful to my many friends here and to Serotta and Co., and we all know the debt we owe them as great as it is for great bicycles but even moreso for the comraderie (a devilish word to spell before the second cup of joe, btw...).

This morning a very well-informed person in the bicycle industry was generous with his time and explained to me some of the differences among Colnagos many carbon offerings at present. This was quite curious stuff and I would still very much like to hear from El Senor on these matters. But there was another feature of this note worth bearing in mind to those who are looking for parts and larger bits. To wit, the dollar appears to be losing ground fast. If you have aspirations and the cash (plenty of the former, considerably less of the latter, in my own case at present) then plunk down them Jacksons 'cause things are going to be considerably more expensive come spring. This is my weak, entirely unscientific economics spouting off here (perhaps Our Own Princeton Econ PhD would make his own observations, especialy now that he is one more CSi the better...) but 'tis my prediction. I don't predict much but higher prices seems about as likely as lugged 650B bikes remaining a niche market (in the near future).

Also, did anyone catch the truly excellent looking oldschool retro-has-new-meaning jerseys on the NFL players yesterday. Granted, I am truly a Who Cares? football fan (meaning I once liked it as a lad way more than I can even remotely care nowadays) but I particularly liked the Lions look though had they dispensed even with players' names that woulda' been even cooler. Of course, I liked Yankee and Red Sox uniforms before they put numbers on the back too. And 7/11 paint jobs on Serottas and REAL Bianchi celeste that was way, way more blue than green and other stuff that only Sandy and Dave Thompson can remember too like Beanie and Cecil or Crusader Rabbit or when Tide was not yet "new and improved" (which is a constant we can rely upon as surely as the falling dollar).

One more non-sequitor: anyone ever paint their bike Ciao Bebe or actually _seen_ one? How pink is it? (dbrk now honors his friend the jerk by assuming a third person guise...) dbrk loves pink bikes and thinks that they are excellent for both men and women and that there has never been a more manly ride up a mountain ever than andy h. on the gavia which brought pink honors. dbrk also loves pink bikes because he knows that no one in his neighborhood (teeth are optional out here but not W04 stickers, you make the connection, dbrk just points out the obvious) would have a pink pick-up truck. there many good reasons to love pink but pink bikes are very cool, ihho.

dbrk

dirtdigger88

11-26-2004, 08:17 AM

Douglas,
Have you seen the pink Chris King headset that they are selling in honor of Breast Cancer Awareness? Check out the site.

Jason

eddief

11-26-2004, 08:38 AM

Douglas,

I don't know what's up with Kai at Momovelo here in Berkeley. He maintains a shop here, but I don't know if he's still actually selling stuff. I think he had tried to hold a real job and own a bike business at the same time. Regardless, I occasionally ride by and look in the window and for quite some time he has had the most subtle, creamy pink frameset displayed. From what I can tell he is inspired and could be good source for shades of pink at its best.

jeffg

11-26-2004, 09:00 AM

Well, I don't know if I really am into retro or zoot parts. In any case, I agree that carbon bits (not a frame or fork) are mostly to be avoided.

Now, however, I see myself very close to a CF crank. I have a PMP crank, but I need one for my second bike and now PMP has moved to an integrated crank/bb (still a low-Q), but I am having trouble finding one. Also, I want a 50/34 for tackling some European cols. Now with the TA Zephyr gone, a Campy Chorus CT can be used with a Phil BB ...

Birddog

11-26-2004, 09:36 AM

Douglas, is it really necessary to make comments like this (teeth are optional out here but not W04 stickers, you make the connection, dbrk just points out the obvious) I feel that cheap shots like that take away from the message, and in fact send an entirely different message. The common ground on this forum is bicycles and that is the strength of the forum. I seldom fail to read one of your posts, I find them thoughtful, well written, usually enlightening. and often entertaining. Occasionally, I have to run to the dictionary (and that's a good thing) and although you frequently apologize for prolixity, I find the length of your posts to be about "just right".

Frankly, I have always thought that the political comments and taglines that many use on the board to be off- putting, regardless of their affiliation. Politics belongs on a political board or your bumper. Discussions of same need to be face to face, political prodding and cyber rants with nameless strangers are a waste of time IMO. The election is over and a little less than half the voting public would probably agree with you, whereas a little more than half would most likely disagree. Name calling of any sort to my knowledge, never won an argument or won someone over to an opposing belief. Would you have made that comment in your classroom?

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, it wasn't meant to be. The typed E-word can come across as rather harsh or worse. This is just advice from someone who is older than Dave Thompson, take it for what it's worth.

Peace,
Birddog

bags27

11-26-2004, 09:40 AM

Thought I'd add some cheer and perspective to this wonderful thread with the following that I just happen to have read from Eugen Weber's Apocalypses: Prophecies, Cults, and Millennial Beliefs through the Ages. Speaking of the fin de siecle (the one before the last), Weber writes:

"But the bicycle, with its recently invented brakes and pneumatic tires, was seen by doomsayers as just another nail in the coffin of civilization. Women were riding bicycles, contributing to the decline of morals and accelerating the collapse of social harmony. New-fangled sports, rambling, and cycling threatened rank, order, and culture....Newly obtrusive and newly mobile criminals...use bikes to rob and stab and make their getaway." (22-23)

Not sure what to draw from this for present purposes, but it does serve to remind that things change, and unpredictably so. Who would see the bicycle today as an instrument of social revolution? In the U.S., at least, it's more like a signifier of the middle and upper classes.

jerk

11-26-2004, 10:41 AM

dbrk-
here are the jerk's brief thoughts on the current colnago carbon line-up.
the presidente, leonardo bike. brera bike aniversary bike, all that stuff are sort of design excercises rather than true racing bikes. they come in far fewer sizes, and while they are truly engineering marvels and sport a look some one must love, the jerk was never overly impressed with the ride of any of ernesto's monocoque bikes...they just don't seem as "tuned" as the race bike frames.
the new e-1 has been described by both the u.s. importer and certain websites as being a stiffer, shorter distance bike than the c-50. DO NOT BELIEVE THIS. the jerk has ridden it, and just because it's monocoque does not mean that this thing is some stiff rocket ship. colnago designed this bike for the high end recreational "gran fondo" style rider. it is smooth, comfortable, and a sweet ride. that being said it, it lacks the torsional rigidity of a c-50, doesn't seem to exhibit the same "snap" that one feels when a fast peloton suddenly increases its speed etc. etc. it is not the c50 yet nor was it meant to be. please remember, this is based on a long test ride on the e1 and conversations with mr. colnago about the differences between the bikes. honestly, the jerk doesn't know where competitive cyclist and trialtir got their info...but i guess things feel different to different people.
the c50 is the ultimate race bike, stiff, fast and comfortable it does everything right and behaves in a predictable manner at all speeds. it almost gives the illusion of travelling at a lower speed than it actually is due to the ability of the carbon to dampen. that being said, it feels lively in the way only good italian race bikes (be they steel, alloy or carbon) can. compared to a c40 the c50 feels more powerful, a little more sure footed, and corners better due to an increase in torsional rigidity and a 1 1/8th fork. please bear in mind this is the jerk's experience on 61cm frames.
more later,
jerk

Todd Owen

11-26-2004, 11:44 AM

I have been absent from the forum for quite a while in postings but still read it every other day or so...I recently lost my Dad at age 80 and that causes one to lament and think of all the good times and tradition and look toward to the future with hope..... One of my old bike buddies is purchasing a CDA and I have a co-worker originally from France whose Dad worked for Credit Lyonnais who can actually correctly pronounce the name. My buddy is going with a Chorus group after I suggested all carbon deraillers and cranks and everything else ( record group) was possibly not the best choice for his normal riding . He also went with a carbon rear end against my suggestion so he can have the extra shock absorption. I wish him the best. His last frame was a Woodrup with a full campy group which he is selling (size 58 douglas). immaculate shape! I just had my steel only, Zinn frame repainted dark violet metallic and my buddy at Excel Sports still says it is the smoothest bike he has ridden. my point of all this is to say I think bikes are like fly rods...... they are made to catch fish mostly within 10-15 feet from the fisherman and whether bamboo, graphite, of fiberglass a good design and workmanship makes the rod not just the material. I still get gooey when looking at my steel lugged frames but would still love to own a Look carbon frame. 381 i ish. I am not very good with mechanical stuff so all my bikes are put together by someone else. One last comment. I had the Zinn repainted, and am putting together with a shimano ultegra 9 speed group, down tube shifters, Nitto stem,fork, and seat post, and mavix cxp 33 rims with DA 9 speed hubs 32 hole . also a selle italia rolls saddle. sort of a retro,dbrk,rivendale type setup. isn't life wonderful!!!!!

jeffg

11-26-2004, 11:59 AM

Jerk --

Isn't it odd to dub a 1500g CF frame the ultimate race bike given the discussion of properly built Ti being too heavy for a pro race bike? I would think a Parlee, Look 585, Simplon, or Scott would be a better choice in that regard.

BTW, any thoughts on where to get a PMP Microroad 2005?

Curious,
Jeff-san

jerk

11-26-2004, 12:04 PM

well, it's a bit lighter than that the new hm model lost a few grams and even the jerk's 61 cm is very light.....more on that later. it's really more about the ride, the handling etc. etc. in general to get the same ride charachteristics out of titanium the thing would have to be much much heavier....having seen a scott frame cut in half believe you the jerk it's best to stay away. parlees seem nice although if geometry is everything or mostly everything the jerk would opt for a hampsten spec'ed example.

pmp cranks? the new one with the outboard bearings? the jerk will get you one if you'd like. email me.
jerk

dbrk

11-26-2004, 12:33 PM

".
The election is over and a little less than half the voting public would probably agree with you, whereas a little more than half would most likely disagree. Name calling of any sort to my knowledge, never won an argument or won someone over to an opposing belief. Would you have made that comment in your classroom

Because you asked: Oh yes. I never refrain from a gratuitous insinuation or caustic opinion in the classroom. We live in an America that seems less and less to encourage dissent or incite serious argument. Sure, mine was more along the Jon Stewart line of commentary on the half-shell but I'm not nearly as funny. However, I vociferously oppose the current American executive and his policies and I shamelessly, openly, and without the slightest hesitation bring this opposition into my classroom. It is inappropriate, I would agree, to bring it here.

I feel it is my responsibility (and my privilege) to present such arguments at the University. Of course I am tenured in a private research university where having an informed opinion still means you can disagree aloud with whomever you please. I await Bill O'Reilly's wrath with a certain glee. My students are well-aware that they too run no risks by voicing their opinions and they need not agree with me. They are encouraged to have opinions and to voice them, even if they dissent (and it is warmly encouraged to disagree with me though it is true I have the advantage in argument because, well, I've been at it awhile). What a thought! There is no threat of recrimination, nothing like "you are with us or against us," because such a view is one I cannot endorse in my classroom or the world. So you see, I am shameless and if an American college professor can't speak out then there is even less hope for our future than I currently believe to be the case.

You are correct that it may be irresponsible here and win me one of those rebukes from the administrator but it was meant more to be funny (I can take it, not just dish it out) than serious. I cannot promise I won't do it again. So I may get tossed because nothing like tenure protects speech here. I will, however, try to stay on bicycles, that being more appropriate.
But you know, if I get tossed, so be it.

dbrk

RE: C50 vs the monocoques. Very interesting, jerkpal. I can't bring myself to violate the 11th Commandment (nor do I currently have the means) but this would be one worth it. My Parlee is Hampsten tweaked geos-wise, that being precisely the course I took. Thanks for the interesting observations, as usual.

Ken Robb

11-26-2004, 12:53 PM

OK, I admit it: I'm ignorant; what are WO4 stickers??

flydhest

11-26-2004, 01:15 PM

. . . uh, Ken. Earlier this month, a few million of us went to polling places to vote for a President. The W04 stickers were somehow involved.

Ken Robb

11-26-2004, 01:20 PM

thanks for the hint--I didn't see one and I still don't get it. I did vote however.

coylifut

11-26-2004, 01:21 PM

OK, I admit it: I'm ignorant; what are WO4 stickers??

That's George Dubya in 04

Ken Robb

11-26-2004, 01:28 PM

Oh, printed in red or blue (maybe we should drop that distinction and try to all be purple) Thanks. I saw lots of stickers but not that one.

Lifelover

11-26-2004, 01:48 PM

JohnS

11-26-2004, 02:42 PM

because of prior "problems" on the forum, and due to the fact that it is sponsored by Serotta and not an independent group, we try to stay away from politics on this forum. We have enough arguing about Campy/Shimano, cf/ti, clinchers/tubulars, lugged/welded, etc. to keep us arguing for years to come! :beer:

jeffg

11-26-2004, 02:46 PM

Jerk --

Thanks for the PMP offer! Is is right that PMP is amking their own chainrings?

As for the bike, Congrats on your C-50! You are right about the Hampsten/Parlee. It is a great bike. I wonder about the Look as well. Those Frenchies make a decent racing frame on occassion ...

Big Dan

11-26-2004, 02:48 PM

I think we are ready for another steel vs Ti vs CF debates.... :bike:
Personally I'm back to all steel, fork included... and if component prices don't come back to reality , I'll end up with friction shifters... :help:

dave thompson

11-26-2004, 02:56 PM

Forget reality pricing in the near future. Today the dollar is worth slightly over 1.3 Euro! Not terribly long ago it was worth .90 Euro, which is almost a 50% decline in value.

dbrk

11-26-2004, 03:12 PM

A coupla' years ago I bought a pretty nice Carrera, it was a Giove with custom paint, mostly aluminum and carbon, kind of an odd bird. It rode beautifully but I had had enough and it's long gone. I recall this bike because the Dollar/Euro was .85 to 1E. Yup, that's eighty-five cents to a Euro. I paid like nuthin' for that bike though the mailorder guys outta' Milan are long out of business now (no wonder too at the discount I got).

There is much talk from Trialtir about prices going way up on Colnagos in the not too distant future, again because of the dollar. This may be good for the economy (or not, Lord knows, I dont' know...) but it will be B-A-D for buying bike parts, frames, and anything that comes from anywhere else (and as far as I can tell most everything already does come from somewhere else).

gunshots in the woods out back, I'm rooting for Bambi,

dbrk

Climb01742

11-26-2004, 03:30 PM

retro. grouch. a case where two negatives don't make a positive.

the past holds things worth valuing. the present holds thing worth valuing. and surely so will the future.

this forum is large enough, and filled with people wise enough, to have worthy discussions about the coolest retro thing and the coolest carbon thing, without passing judgment on antiquity vs modernity.

besides, the past has an advantage. all of its chaff has been winnowed and mercifully forgotten. the shining gems of the past do glow brightly, but the glow is a bit misleading, i think. the past glows because we are selectively looking at its shining stars. the present looks darker, less glowing because we are knee deep in its unwinnowed chaff, its diamonds (to mix wheat and gemstone imagery) still partially hidden.

if this is a rant, sorry. but retro grouches make me, well, crouchy. guess that makes me a future grouch. i'll take tomorrow over yesterday any day. because tomorrow we have a chance to make something better, rather than lament, even eloquently and gracefully, our fallen departed yesterdays.

dbrk

11-26-2004, 05:13 PM

It is a matter of some historical note that Specialities TA has at last discontinued the Pro Vis5 crankset. That is what prompted this thread. Yes, I personally lament that fact because a good, still useful, and beautiful bit of cycling, something with history and value, has succombed to who-knows-what process of decision-making.

It is by no means the case that any current or future market forces (or corporate decisions, wisdom, etc.) will winnow any chaff for the better, leaving the worthy a meaningful place in the world. No, quite the contrary, as history shows. It is far more common that good things are merely forgotten or shoved aside. There are no guarantees that what is worthwhile about the past will ever be preserved or continued. That is precisely why this particular footnote to cycling history is interesting to me, perhaps even to others. Perhaps not to you. You are free to forget and move on.

dbrk

jerk

11-26-2004, 06:16 PM

dbrk-
you are correct. any hegellian "drang nach Fortschritt" is sure to leave more of value in its refuse than it brings along with it. usually what is brought along is mutated, corrupted and/or altered beyond all recognition. yes, a ferrari maranello is a far more advanced automobile than a ferrari gto and probably a more livable car, but no one would argue that the latter is a far more perfect example of a sports car.
that specialities ta crank is gone and the world is worse for it. forks custom raked to their frames are gone too except for the most cratchety of pro riders.....corporations and economies of scale and product managers have forced the bike designer to be an endangered species and there are no true "bike builders" left with anywhere near the resources the moronic "product managers" have at their disposal. imagine if cees beers or andy walser or dario pegoretti was given the resources the trek/giant/specialized/etc.etc. product managers have at their disposal. one man in holland can make wheels better than any giant addidas owned corporation could ever hope too....one man in switzerland can make a faster bike than any multi-million dollar wisconsin firm could ever hope too....one man in northern italy produces more refined, better handling, better made racing bicycles than the world's largest bicycle manufacturer with the millions of dollars they throw at development ever could hope to....the jerk thinks his c50 might be an example of the best of both worlds....although there have been times in colnago's history where it was the worst of both worlds. it is good to see ernesto pissed off at industry trends, offshore manufacturing, chinese garbage with italian flags painted all over, and unrideable bikes in three sizes. so yeah. as you were.

Matt Barkley

11-26-2004, 07:16 PM

Jerk - My favorite post yet. Cheers :beer: - Matt (I get my C-50 in about a week)

e-RICHIE

11-26-2004, 07:24 PM

jerk-issimo
agreed.
attaboy.

your post summons up a favorite scene
from the film Sunset Boulevard:

JOE GILLES- "You're Norma Desmond, you used to be in pictures.
You used to be big."

NORMA-
"I am big, it's the pictures that got small."

e-RICHIE

ps

:p :p :p
:D :D :D
:cool: :cool: :cool:

ARRANGE DISORDER

Climb01742

11-26-2004, 07:47 PM

douglas, you're a man of many sides. you bring much knowledge and experience to this forum. but you also, at moments, bring a judgemental note. isn't it possible to lament the passing of something without turning it into a broader judgement on the state of the modern cycling industry? you make a valid point about something worthwhile being gone. but i'm not sure the further, broader judgements you built on that point are so clearly, unambiguously "true". like:

"It is by no means the case that any current or future market forces (or corporate decisions, wisdom, etc.) will winnow any chaff for the better, leaving the worthy a meaningful place in the world. No, quite the contrary, as history shows. It is far more common that good things are merely forgotten or shoved aside."

that is a pretty big leap. that is pretty darn far from a lament for the passing of a bit of cycling technology. that is a broad sweeping ideological judgement. which you have a tendency to do. which opens the door to dissenting points of view. which sometimes gets you bent out of shape about. you also write:

"You are free to forget and move on."

i'm also free to call you on a highly debatable set of conclusions you draw. maybe i'm reading too much into your comments sometimes, but at moments, it feels like your opinions are rendered more as pronouncements. douglas, i consider you a long distance pal. and i don't mean to disagree disagreeably. but there is a recurrent strain in many of your posts deploring the present state of cycling. again, i could be wrong, but at times when you write it, it just feels like more than an opinion. it can feel like a lecture, not a free open exchange of ideas. i do not say any of this to offend or attack. the healthiest forums are two sided, or multi-sided, debates. i'm debating not your original point, but your conclusions drawn from that point. i simply, as one guy's view, feel like some of your larger condemnations just don't hold up. you could be right. i could be right. it's debateable. which is my point. hoping to still be your pal (or at least your debating partner), climb.

Climb01742

11-26-2004, 07:55 PM

NORMA-
"I am big, it's the pictures that got small."

at what point did the pictures get small? was it when "on the waterfront" got made? or when "to kill a mockingbird" got made? or maybe when "the godfather" or "chinatown" or "apocolypse now" or "the straight story" or "breaker morant" got made?

geez. we might as well all kill ourselves right now. nothing good is ever gonna get made again. but richie, before you slice your wrists, could you weld my frame...with steel i'm guessing is just slightly better than the stuff you used 30 years ago? :rolleyes:

is this a cycling forum or the cassandra forum? ;)

e-RICHIE

11-26-2004, 07:57 PM

you saw the film?

jerk

11-26-2004, 08:06 PM

e-RICHIE

11-26-2004, 08:06 PM

you saw the film?

jerk

11-26-2004, 08:13 PM

yup...me and the mrs..were just doing the norma desmond impression....jerk would have included you in his list of apparachiks who should replace those purged under a jerkissimo regime at one of the big bike companies...'just don't want your head to get to big...especially when the jerk's frame is only 333 places back in line.

Big Dan

11-26-2004, 08:13 PM

It's possible for a person to come around full circle back to where it all started. You can try all the new stuff and different combinations and not find what you like. Personally I don't see anything wrong with that. For example I rather play my 1980 Fender Strat than any new guitar. Does that make me against progress?? Don't think so..... :no:

Climb01742

11-26-2004, 08:59 PM

you saw the film?

if you were asking me, yes...about 10 times. i'm ready for my close-up, e-richie. and no the cycling industry isn't floating dead in norma's pool.

e-RICHIE

11-26-2004, 09:11 PM

Climb-issimo wrote (snipped):
"...and no the cycling industry isn't floating dead in norma's pool."

no it isn't. it's thriving.
it follows the money.
the net result is not that great bicycles are not that much
greater than ever, but the mediocre ones sure are.
e-RICHIE

Climb01742

11-27-2004, 04:06 AM

richie, whether on purpose or not, i think you've struck on an ideal metaphor.

is the cycling industry, like norma's pictures, getting smaller or just changing? i'd argue that while very worthwhile things are being lost, very worthwhile things are also being gained.

at the moment of "sunset blvd" silent pictures were "lost" and lamented. i've seen more than my fair share of silent movies. some were absolute gems, by chaplin and keaton. other dreck. but "talkies" created their own masterpieces.

personally, and its only a personal opinion, the silent vs talkies situation is true in cycling...and literature and painting and architecture and everything.

some small percentage of everything created in a given year is great. some very large percentage is crap. mankind's creative batting average is low. but i'd say its constant. the porportion of gems to crap was the same in 1950, 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000 and will be in 2010. IMO, the past wasn't better...or worse. we just forget how much crap was created in the past. yet we're painfully aware of how much crap is around us now.

if you had to choose a bike to ride in a cyclocross race, would you choose the very best of 1974 or the very best of 2004? of course, which ever one you chose, you'd beat me. ;)

Climb01742

11-27-2004, 08:06 AM

douglas, have reread my posts. they may have been a bit harsh. i apologize. for some reason, the "past is better than the present" idea gets particularly under my skin. i should have expressed myself differently. mea culpa. climb.

dbrk

11-27-2004, 09:15 AM

I not only suffer prolixity but occasional (or not so occasional) pedantry. I apologize to all for being an inveterate [you fill in the blank].

I'd never argue the past was better than the present and I entirely understand why such a view is irksome. There was no more a golden age of bicycles (wellll....maybe SuperRecord, :-) than there was of, well, anything. Romancing the past is not a crime but neither is it rooted (usually) in anything particularly real or helpful. Looney Tunes, however, are far, far superior to any cartoons currently made, so there are exceptions to the rule (like all good rules). History has a way of both preserving _and_ neglecting what is valuable, especially so in cycling since so much of what is "new" really is re-inventing the wheel. How ironic, no?

So, to change the subject again: drop a plomb-bob from the tip of your saddle to the floor. How far behind the bb center spindle are you? Inquiring minds wanna know.

Also, anyone ever subject their Serotta to the Cervelo style of analysis where you measure their notion of "reach" (distance from bb center top tube intersection to center of the headtube). The more I mess around with their ideas, the more sense they make, especially since I much prefer a non-KOPs orientation to fit.

dbrk

tch

11-27-2004, 05:59 PM

....and maybe that's good. We probably don't need LOTS more here. But in my reading, I found some really interesting tidbits. To wit:
On politics:
We live in an America that seems less and less to encourage dissent or incite serious argument.
I'm with Douglas on this. Even though we seem to have a much higher degree of heat these days, there's little substance I find. Tho' it's rare to find someone who is indifferent, it is even more rare to find someone who is really knowledgeable. How can we ever reach informed opinions without meaningful discussion? But what has happened is that discussion is corked up either by attempts to "make nice" or by attempts to reflexively label and condemn. I support the good professor's pedagogical methods -- and admit that they are precisely my own. And....I would argue that this is one of the very reasons that "ivory tower academics" deserve the tenure system (which other than this, has few justifications, btw).

On retro-grouching:
It is by no means the case that any current or future market forces (or corporate decisions, wisdom, etc.) will winnow any chaff for the better, leaving the worthy a meaningful place in the world. No, quite the contrary, as history shows. It is far more common that good things are merely forgotten or shoved aside. There are no guarantees that what is worthwhile about the past will ever be preserved or continued.
I am NOT someone who believes that all progress is for the worse, nor that good things have not come out of forward motion. HOWEVER, it is instructive to note how the basic concept has been true. I would have you examine America's food, for instance. Is there anything that says that a McDonald's hamburger is any better -- from a health or culinary perspective -- than a well-made hamburger available at a locally-owned diner? Yet I have been witness in the last two years to the closing of two local hamburger spots directly because of the presence of McDonalds in their towns. Progress? I think not. Perhaps this is a ridiculous comparison, but the sense remains: in many areas -- hamburgers, hardware stores, maybe bicycles -- "progress" has really served us badly by rewarding cheap, mediocre-but-consistent, mass-produced goods.

Finally, lest I leave the impression I am with Douglass only, I think we should all remember this final truth from Climb:

"The past holds things worth valuing. the present holds thing worth valuing. and surely so will the future."
I would simply argue that it is important to know, and remember and preserve, the things worth valuing. I think that is where the good professor started.

Sorry, I'll stop pontificating.

vaxn8r

11-27-2004, 10:00 PM

It isn't whether a burger from the local diner is better. Americans are willing to put up with inferior products, food and healthcare as long as it's fast and anonymous.

I'm amazed how often people will refuse a "same day" appointment to be seen in the emergency department or an after-hours clinic. Ironically it's often slower care but it is anonymous and you don't have to trouble with picking up the phone to make an appointment. Is it better? Getting care from someone who doesn't know you and has no access to your medical record? I won't answer that. But I have found my after hours clinic is always chock full to the brim, even when I offer same day appointments. The message: it can be pretty low quality care but if it's quick, it's perceived as good.

One could extend this argument to mail order vs. lbs. So many decry the local stores. But is mail order truly better for us in the long haul? Is McDonalds better than the diner? Is the "Doc-in-a-Box" better than your own MD?

I guess in an age of speed and anonymity the anwer to all those is YES.

Climb01742

11-28-2004, 06:08 AM

good things are being lost. and just to take the discussion someplace different, where does the fault, blame or whatever one wants to call it lie?

with consumers, i'd argue. yes, big corporations and market forces are the enablers, but ultimately the final choice -- and a self-defeating choice i'd argue in the long run -- is our's.

people choose to eat at mcdonald's instead of the local diner. choose to shop at walmart instead of the local five and dime. choose to shop at home depot instead of the local hardware store. choose to buy cardboard tomatoes instead of locally grown funny looking but damn tasty farmstand tomatoes.

these are all troubling trends. (i could try to list a counterbalancing list of good modern trends but i'd digress...) but i think in most of the troubling trends we the final end consumers are at least as responsible as the larger enabling forces. two small personal things i've vowed never to do to help (hopelessly i'm afraid) stop two troubling things...never to shop at a walmart and never go to las vegas. ;)

Andreu

11-28-2004, 06:52 AM

I like this philosophy, but unfortunately every shop seems to be turning into Walmart and every town is slowly turning into Las Vegas.
A

Tom

11-28-2004, 08:12 AM

But we will have to use up all the petroleum first. Then, look out. It gonna be ugly.

dave thompson

11-28-2004, 10:59 AM

good things are being lost...... two small personal things i've vowed never to do to help (hopelessly i'm afraid) stop two troubling things...never to shop at a walmart and never go to las vegas. ;)
<rant]>Wal Mart's biggest sin is they have taught the consumer that price is everything, and the only thing. By doing this successfully, they have crushed any competition and killed the small businesses that could offer variety, service and difference. By creating jobs that are part-time and relatively low-wage, they have eliminated jobs that have brought up families, bought houses and cars, paid for vacations and college educations. IMO they have successfully ripped the heart, and maybe soul, out of America and replaced it with something as evil as communism. <rant over>

(Gee, I hear a song coming on.."Will you join me in my crusade..?" from Les Miz)

rnhood

11-28-2004, 07:23 PM

Dave your point is well taken and, I also think part of our heart and soul has been ripped out. However, we (the consumers) are largely to blame. This sin is more in our lap than corporate America. We ultimately establish our buying habits - corporate America merely advertises and tells us what they think. The trouble is, we tend to be gullible and fall victum to this advertising far too easily. But still, we are to blame.

Funny thing is that we go to Wal-Mart and nickle and dime a product to death just to save 10 cents yet, we go to extremes, even dangerous extremes in buying some products such a house. Some guys take out risky loans along with debt befitting our government, and even put their wives to work just to buy that big 3 or 4 bedroom home with a garage and big lawn.

The problem is squarely on us. We don't have to buy these things. It is not a prerequiste to being happy. But we do. So we are to blame.

Climb01742

11-29-2004, 03:31 AM

take it from someone who pulls his little remaining hair out trying to create ads that work... pursauding people to do or buy anything is damn hard... we consume what we consume for like 90% personally- or socially-driven reasons. i only WISH we ad folks had some magical power over people... the reality is much much harder... at least for me. :rolleyes: as consumers, i fear we are the captains of our own titantic.

Tom

11-29-2004, 07:32 AM

I suppose we do bear responsibility for the situation we find ourselves in, but one of my colleagues was discussing this and that with another and I heard him utter "And, we're getting a Kohl's!" A department store. A big event in this guy's life is that a department store is opening, like it's a gift or something.

Would we eat at the trough if it were not placed before us?

Birddog

11-29-2004, 08:16 AM

Actually, I kinda like what Kohls has done. They have identified a market and chased after it with relentless flyers reminding us to shop there. They have taken a page from Wal-Mart and shoved it back in their face. Wal-Mart might be the greatest friend the lower income family ever had, sure beats gov't handouts and thrift shops.

Wal-Mart," Where else can you go and buy diapers and shotgun shells in one stop"?

Personally, I only go into either of those stores about twice a year, I just don't care for them.

Birddog

Kevan

11-29-2004, 10:29 AM

Current familial obligations that include things like children’s college educations and new motor vehicles have forced my new bike’s continuing fictional existence, but just perhaps I’m enjoying the better part of its ride, keeping it locked up in my mind. My biking buddies concede that they too have lust in their hearts, with no immediate abilities to act on the passion, and agree too that the wanton pleasure might just be the better part of the process. I bring this subject up here in hopes that this thread remains on course, that bikes, however they are or were made, and their lacings whether available or not, fulfill our wants, whatever they might be. Could it be though, as in Dudley Moore’s character, who discovered there is no perfect “10”? Is the only satisfaction achieved is the lust itself? It’s not the 10’s we want; it’s the lust…

So down to the finest detail I have created her, my next bike, in my mind. I am, as many of us here, a child of the 70’s and remember seeing the bikes of the era and thinking nothing ever… ever… could be better or sweeter, and while I never owned the finer steeds of that time, a seed was planted in my mind, which went dormant until this group of fine folk started its germination. The success of this dream, to bring it to nonfiction, is still too far removed to portend, but I remain hopeful.

In sharing the specifics of this dream bike, my pal laughed at the detail I had already gone through in it’s design and I will confess here that I held back from him more of its trappings, embarrassed by the extent of my imaginings. Still, I will eventually act on my wants and I best come to the rationalization now that satisfaction will be short lived. Is it a personal weakness or simply a characteristic of just being human? We’re here for want sakes, aren’t we? That’s our basic drive - want. We want for everything. While we can reason our way into a supposedly supported rational, we’ll eventually be back where we started.

I can picture her right now…

Andreu

11-29-2004, 12:51 PM

..this is the wrong place to bang on about the evils of consumerism
A :bike:

dave thompson

11-29-2004, 02:03 PM

..this is the wrong place to bang on about the evils of consumerism
A :bike:
Start a new thread, I'd certainly participate!

Andreu

11-29-2004, 02:34 PM

...but I have seen on other threads how anything remotely political can turn into something much more sinister.
A :beer:

shaq-d

11-29-2004, 05:44 PM

if you're a man of a certain size and weight, there is no significant difference between a bike made in 1970 and 2004. nada. :bike:

little diffs: lug or no lug, sloping top tube or no, brifters or shifters, # of speeds, weight of components, clinchers>tubs, clothing. to favour one over the other is a personal preference, it isn't an ideology to favour the past... if so dbrk would be riding vintage 1920s bikes. ultimately the ride is the same and a weight diff of 22lbs to 15lbs is a significant 35% improvement, is not significant when it's bike+rider.

same with the ferraris. personal pref, not an overarching ideology to pick the GTO over, say, the enzo. they both go to 0-100 in negligibly the same amount of time.

close my eyes and sit on my 80 pina or 99 serotta... they both feel good to me.

sd

sspielman

11-30-2004, 07:18 AM

Allow me to go back to the beginning of this thread for a moment, if I may.....
It is indeed a shame that T.A. has discontinued the venerable "Professional" crank after all of these years. However, it may not be as bad as it seems at first. This product has not appeared in any of their catalogs that I have seen for years (not that I have seen them all). It was sort of a "legacy" product in their range. I suspect that if demand warrants in the future, T.A. may be convinced to make another production run. They did this very thing a few years ago when they had a number of requests for the unique cotter pin that was used on their "Criterium" model cranks that were produced until about the mid 60's.
I am pleased that a few of the old specialty part manufacturers are still around. It is great when they still offer some of their classic parts, but economics will eventually dictate the end of a product's life cycle.

Andreu

11-30-2004, 08:34 AM

The economics of the operation will dictate what happens in the end in many cases..sad but true. It has nothing to do with romantic notions of a by-gone area, quality, or saving peoples jobs.
A :beer:

Ahneida Ride

11-30-2004, 10:46 AM

Isn't anyone going to lament the passing of the TA Zephyr ? A spetacular looking crank with exemplary functionality. One could install custom rings from
20 to 58 teeth.

I wish to choose my own gear ratios.

Vancouverdave

11-30-2004, 12:14 PM

As a full time mechanic and many-years cyclist, I'll say that the less variety that exists in any one particular component means the fewer possible solutions to different riders' needs. I like to stock and sell TA chainrings and other French goods whenever possible--it keeps manufacturing business going in a high-wage country that respects workers rights and buying French goods pisses off Republicans. Plus, TA has always made a variety of good products. I happen to think that the crank in discussion with the Etoile #175 adaptor and rings is the most visually beautiful crank in all of bikedom; it would look as great on a Ottrot as on my '60 Ideor!

vaxn8r

11-30-2004, 03:36 PM

William

12-01-2004, 08:08 AM

I've been away so I'm coming in on the tail end of this thread. I'll just spew out what's floating in my head.

I don't know, maybe dbrk is just being a retro-grouch? I can understand were he is coming from. But for me it's not really so much about bikes, I get the same feeling about cars when comparing anything today to the mid 60's to early 70's American muscle cars of yester-year. Are there better handling cars out there today? Certainly is. Are there faster cars out there today? Yes, but very,very few. Point is, to me, nothing out there today compares to the pure fire breathing, high octane burning, ground pounding, rubber melting, lane jumping, whip lash producing, grab you by the face and and throw you back into the seat at 12 G's MOPAR muscle when you punch the gas pedal. Many people would disagree with me on any number of levels, but that is my feeling about the product. When the insurance companies started upping the rates on these beasts, and the gas shortage came about, the auto companies caved and started producing real crap. Give it the "GO" stripes but nothing under the hood to back up the look.
I lament that, much like dbrk laments the passing of certain cycling product milestones. Are there more important things in this world? Sure, but there is nothing wrong in having a passion for something and voicing what you feel about the current state of things. Many people will agree or disagree with him on many levels, but those are his feelings....nothing wrong with that...I can empathize with him.

I can agree with his feelings that many times companies "improve" something when there is no need, or the so called "improvement" is nothing more than marketing hype, change for the sake of change. Is it a result of people really WANTING to keep up with the Joneses, or is it mass marketing/ media advertising that makes people think they NEED to keep up with the Jones? Either way, "NEW & IMPROVED" seems to be a way to get people to throw away and buy the latest greatest product. Consumerism at it's height baby! As long as people buy into it, it's here to stay.

My beef with the cycling industry is the rising costs of components. This is the part of dbrk's comments that I fall in-line with. The last few years has seen some amazing price jumps with little improvement (not enough to justify the increases IMHO). DT levers at $75+, $1000 and up wheels, $400+ cranks, etc...I could go on and on (I would but I don't have a catalog in front of me). I have relatives who do lots of business overseas with manufacturing companies in Asia that make just about every product under the sun, including cycling components. Believe me, the mfg costs are nothing compared to what you pay at the mark up prices. I will give the big bike companies credit in that they have studied and defined the average cycling demographic and capitalized it to a very high degree. A large percentage of this demographic has a lot of disposable income and has been willing to continue spending the $$ in spite of the ridiculously rising costs of components. I think a better way of saying it is that they have been driving the increases by the willingness to continue spending in spite of continual mark-ups. Sure, all businesses have to make money to stay in business. A certain amount of markup for their service/product is fair, but at some point, as a consumer, you have to ask yourself, "at what point does it stop being a service, and begin to be taking advantage of you?" Dbrk asked & answered this question on the Ottrott. To him it's not worth the mark-up. To others it might be. But IMO, not enough people ask this question and instead just keep throwing their dough out the window and the component mfgr's keep answering by increasing the prices.

But William, what about marketing/advertising, and R&D? :confused:

Buying materials in bulk, cheap (and I mean cheap) labor with out health insurance and all the other perks, little or no restrictions on pollution or health concerns frees up up lots of $$ for salaries, marketing, and R&D.

William :)

(This is just William's opinion. He might be wrong, but he doesn't think he's off by much.)