Rivendell

[CNY rider]

Anyone done business/interacted with Riv lately?

I really really want to like them; they sell the kind of gear I like and appeal to JRA and non-racer types such as myself.

They seem to go out of their way to disappoint in the customer service department.

Latest example: I just got their "Holiday 2008" catalog in the mail.

Problem: It's January 3 and the holidays are but a memory. It's at least 3 weeks too late to be of any use.
It's not the first time this has happened. They often include coupons in their mailers and I seem to get them weeks after the coupon has expired.

I think I am a "member" there of some sort. I know I sent them a check in the past because I liked the Reader and wanted to keep getting it.
Am I still a member? Who the hell knows? Should I send more dues? Hell no. Do other companies manage to find a way to keep their best customers happy, informed and up to date? Yes.

I understand that they are a small shop and seem not to have time for lots of things. I get it. Really, I do.
Do they get that they have competitors nipping at their heels, giving better service and paying attention to detail like sending holiday catalogs when they are actually usable? I'm not so sure.
Hope they get it soon because they aren't going to have a happy ending if they don't......

[Steevo]

I renewed my membership this past November, just because...

They sell stuff I like, I enjoy(ed) the reader and simply respect their perspective.

I received my holiday catalog today. ***?

[eddief]

wanted to see the new Sam H. I think they mean well, but I find all the personalities there a bit quirky. Define it your own way. I think "introverted" comes up for me.

That said, it would be interesting for you to have a conversation in a non-upset way with someone at Riv. If they did not understand your complaint, did not then bend over backward to honor that you want to buy something at the holiday price...then they are cutting off their noses to spite their faces. Then it's time to shop at VeloOrange who seems to be kicking some butt.

[CNY rider]

wanted to see the new Sam H. I think they mean well, but I find all the personalities there a bit quirky. Define it your own way. I think "introverted" comes up for me.

That said, it would be interesting for you to have a conversation in a non-upset way with someone at Riv. If they did not understand your complaint, did not then bend over backward to honor that you want to buy something at the holiday price...then they are cutting off their noses to spite their faces. Then it's time to shop at VeloOrange who seems to be kicking some butt.


Honestly, the holiday prices don't matter.
Riv isn't a company I shop for good prices, much like Serotta. I buy their products in a relatively price-insensitive way.
It's about them making even the most meager attempt to keep me as a customer.

[eddief]

...I still think it could be productive for the cosmos of cycling for you to have the conversation with Grant or John.

[jthurow]

Mailings have never been Riv's strong point... And they've always had problems with keeping stuff in stock and deadlines. But their bikes are really nice and I've always had great service when I've done business with them.

Back in the day when Grant used to write about the business of Riv in the Readers, it was very apparent that he flew by the seat of his pants. They used to be the only game in town for the stuff they offered and it used to be even more esoteric. I hope they can adapt to having competition but I have a feeling Riv's Riv and what you see is what you get.

jimi

[fourflys]

I think the "holiday" catalong was just a catalog...I got mine before xmas, not sure mine brfore yours...

I keep update by looking at thier site, they actaully have a really good, updated inventory on their site now. They also have a blog of sorts on the main page with updates. As someone said, mailers and catalogs have never beem Grant's strongsuit. We're still waiting on the current Reader.. ;)

I stopped by the shop on my back down south on the 31st and had a real nice chat with Keven, I'm sure he could answer any question you have. BTW- you have to renew your membership every year, it really doesn't so much unless you buy stuff and then you get 5% back in credit. The next Reader is supposed to be online...

Chris
Happy Riv Customer

[Ray]

I've been buying stuff from Riv since my first Brooks in '97 and my first Riv bike, also in '97 but delivered in '98. They've never been able to get decent mail deliveries because they send their mass mailings bulk. On the IBOB board, every time a new reader came out, the first couple of people would post when they got it and then everyone else would express their frustration that they hadn't - it usually took a month or more before everyone got theirs. And no rhyme or reason to the locations and the times.

But that's the only real complaint I've had in dealing with them, and I just learned to expect it. They've always bent over backwards on everything else. If I want something, I look on line. Sometimes they have it, sometimes they don't. When they don't, I'll look elsewhere, but I always give them first shot. I just like those folks and the type of gear they sell, although I've mostly moved on from their road bikes, I still have a Rambouillet (fixie) and Bleriot (townie) in my meager stable, so I guess I'm still a Riv guy to some extent.

I remember a longish phone message I got from Grant back when I ordered my first frame with vertical dropouts and they were having trouble finding the right ones, and the frustration in his voice as he tried to explain the problem. It was a miniscule issue and I wouldn't have even known about it if he hadn't called, but it was clear that he cared about it a lot and was chasing down all sorts of possibilities to make it work. Similarly, my Rambouillet came with a BB shell that was slightly oversize and BBs were way too loose. They gave me every option in the world to make it right and executed the one I chose with great speed and attention to detail, paid for express shipping of the frame both ways, and woulda paid for the build except that I did it myself and told 'em not to worry about it. That's not the way to business efficiency but its the way to keep one customer for life. I still appreciate that kind of attitude 11+ years later.

I understand being put off by this kind of stuff, but its never bothered me much.

-Ray

[Louis]

The next Reader is supposed to be online...

This really burns me up. A while back I renewed for three years. I don't do it for the discount - I rarely buy stuff from them. I do it for the paper Reader. There are a gazillion other things to read online. I paid them money for the paper RR. Now, essentially right after I renew, it goes away. Thanks Grant.

Louis

[Erik.Lazdins]

I called them up and placed an order for some consumables (chains etc.) for my Bleriot. I resigned as a member (for 2 years expires this June) and have since that point received 2 Readers. This was the best part of what they offer - Grant's voice via written word - without it they are not maximizing their opportunities.

My point is I WANT them to succeed!

Erik

[CNY rider]

I've been buying stuff from Riv since my first Brooks in '97 and my first Riv bike, also in '97 but delivered in '98. They've never been able to get decent mail deliveries because they send their mass mailings bulk.
-Ray


Don't Nashbar/Performance/Colorado etc. etc. send their stuff by bulk mailing too?

They seem to land stuff in my mailbox at targeted times.

Again, I don't want to bash Riv but I think they need to step their game up a notch given the current state of the economy and more importantly the fact that there is now competition in their space where there really wasn't before.
Seriously, you get your holiday catalog to people in January?????

[CNY rider]

I called them up and placed an order for some consumables (chains etc.) for my Bleriot. I resigned as a member (for 2 years expires this June) and have since that point received 2 Readers. This was the best part of what they offer - Grant's voice via written word - without it they are not maximizing their opportunities.

My point is I WANT them to succeed!

Erik

Agree. There were two cycling publications I always looked forward to in printed form: The Reader and Bicycle Quarterly. Still love BQ.
The print edition Riv Reader really differentiated them from the competition. Dropping it from print is a big lost opportunity.
And I also want them to succeed. They just seem to take every opportunity to blow their own foot off.

[Johnny P]

I live in Albany, NY and also received their "sale catalog" today (1/3) though the sale was from Dec 10th through the 17th. I hope they succeed. I've bought some tires from them recently and had no problems, but their mailings are not timely.

[Ken Robb]

I too miss the paper reader but I think they plan to offer a print version but you'll have to pay for it. I got my Holiday Flyer weeks ago. It was available online at least a week before mine came in the mail. Grant cares so much about the quality of the Reader that it was really eating up way too much of his time. He planned/promised more frequent editions and then was very upset when he really couldn't produce that much material. The comment about bulk mailing is right on. Your mail sits around your local post office until they have time to get to it after the higher class mail goes out. With the holiday crush I can see there would be even more problems than usual.

In the past Grant has exrended deadlines on coupons that were late arriving. He's a good guy who does evderything he can to make people happy and I think his staff works harder than anyone would just for the money. This is the time of year that many bike shops lay off as many employees as they can. I don't think Grant wants to do that so he runs a lean ship and sometimes they may get a little behind. No he is not a relative of mine. I wish he was though. :)

[fourflys]

I live in Albany, NY and also received their "sale catalog" today (1/3) though the sale was from Dec 10th through the 17th. I hope they succeed. I've bought some tires from them recently and had no problems, but their mailings are not timely.

The sale mentioned was NOT a normal sale, most people would not have qualified for it. You had to be severly affected by the economy somehow (lost job, lost a lot of $ on stocks, etc). Although, that didn't stop a lot of people trying to scam, from what it sounded like...

The only real competition Riv has is Velo-Orange and while he has some really nice stuff ( I have a saddle bag), he doesn't have the variety that Riv does...especially in the models of bikes. Riv seems to have a broader variety also, VO seems to deal in a lot of 1950s/Euro/Retro stuff.

I do welcome anyone that builds/promotes lugged steel frames though! :)

[Louis]

I think they plan to offer a print version but you'll have to pay for it.


I thought that's what my membership was paying for. I'll have to pay over and above that to get a paper RR? Wow.

[fourflys]

^ I bet if you call or send Grant or John an email, they will work something out with you...maybe even refund your money.

I swear, I think Grant Peterson gets people more spun up than even bail out plans do....

[Ken Robb]

The sale mentioned was NOT a normal sale, most people would not have qualified for it. You had to be severly affected by the economy somehow (lost job, lost a lot of $ on stocks, etc). Although, that didn't stop a lot of people trying to scam, from what it sounded like...

The only real competition Riv has is Velo-Orange and while he has some really nice stuff ( I have a saddle bag), he doesn't have the variety that Riv does...especially in the models of bikes. Riv seems to have a broader variety also, VO seems to deal in a lot of 1950s/Euro/Retro stuff.

I do welcome anyone that builds/promotes lugged steel frames though! :)


And how about that Velo Orange Reader?

[Ken Robb]

I thought that's what my membership was paying for. I'll have to pay over and above that to get a paper RR? Wow.

Yeah, me too. I don't think Grant ever appreciated how we valued the Reader. Sniff.

[happycampyer]

In the last RR that I received (#40), GP wrote the following about membership, in early 2008:

"... 2. You will get the Reader if and when it comes out. But holy budget crunch, Batman--it costs a ton to print, so it may be that we go to online Readers. I know, I know. I hate that, too. But we don't have advertising sales to pay for the printing, and it may become necessary. We'd still offer the paper versions as things-you-can-buy for $2 or $3 or something. If you like the paper, It'll be worth it. We like the paper, too. Never going to give up the paper, but it may cost you something to get it."

And that was in early 2008. With everyone blogging away, people now expect editorial content for free. It seems like most print media is under siege and, since the RR doesn't take advertising and it's not like Rivendell is a huge money maker, I can see why the print version of the RR is going "pay-per."

The 30% discount (http://www.rivbike.com/blogs/news_post/90) for members affected by the economy was an incredibly generous gesture, but I suppose they experienced the internet equivalent of the stampede at the Long Island Wal-Mart on Black Friday.

To me, Rivendell seems as much a labor of love for the folks who work there (not just GP) as a business. I spent some time last fall riding with Keven, and he is one of the nicest, easiest-going guys you will ever meet. i think that he is pretty typical of the people at Rivendell--he's passionate about cycling and believes in the Rivendell philosophy (or "velosophy").

Rivendell is like a voice crying in the wilderness. Count me as a huge fan.

[alancw3]

to me based on my dealings with them:

rivendell is to the bike industry what trader joe's is to the food market industry. a place you like to do business with because of the people, the products and philosophy despite some inefficienies.

[fourflys]

And how about that Velo Orange Reader?

That would be cool, but I think all Chris has right now is his blog...no?

[Louis]

rivendell is to the bike industry what trader joe's is to the food market industry. a place you like to do business with because of the people, the products and philosophy despite some inefficienies.

I agree. That's why I became a member - I liked the "non racer-boy" attitude and every once in a while (maybe once every 18 months) I'd buy something. However I'm not going to bother to renew my membership if I don't get the regular (albeit w/ irregular delivery schedule) benefit of the RR.

L

[twin]

I have always liked Rivendell and Grant as far back as Bridgestone. I will always buy something because I like what they promote. Good luck to Rivendell!

[michael white]

Rivendell is a terrific little company driven by passion, logic, creativity, fair-mindedness, and also some flakiness.

[Ken Robb]

That would be cool, but I think all Chris has right now is his blog...no?

exactly--I was just having some fun pointing out that Riv's "competitors" don't now nor ever did have a paper newsletter. :beer:

[ggross]

You can buy almost everything Riv has (except bikes) from some other source. The only reason I joined was for the PAPER Reader. The Reader was one of the few cycling reads I always looked forward to reading.

I like what Riv stands for, however, I think it's time for me to move on. Sorry Grant.

[Ken Robb]

You can buy almost everything Riv has (except bikes) from some other source. The only reason I joined was for the PAPER Reader. The Reader was one of the few cycling reads I always looked forward to reading.

I like what Riv stands for, however, I think it's time for me to move on. Sorry Grant.

So you'll move on to other people who NEVER had a reader to teach Grant a lesson? I guess you don't like what he stands for all that much.

[fourflys]

as I said earlier...you mention Rivendell or Grant Peterson and you'd think you started a discussion on prop 8! ;) It just amuses that one man can cause so much angst on the net....

[Joellogicman]

Yeah, me too. I don't think Grant ever appreciated how we valued the Reader. Sniff.

Since I got the Kindle, I get all my magazine, news subscription and all but collector level books on line.

Reader is not a Kindle subscription, nor is BQ. I will probably drop BQ after this year unless it goes on line only. I already dropped Adventure Cycling for the same reason.

[Ray]

Since I got the Kindle, I get all my magazine, news subscription and all but collector level books on line.

I got a Kindle too and I think it rocks for books. But I don't like it for magazines or newspapers, except for the occasional mag that's almost all longer text articles, like the Atlantic. For newspapers and most magazines, I still like the 'browse' factor, the ability to sweep a page with my eye and pick up what I want and ignore what I want. With the Kindle, you're looking at a list of headlines to choose from. I've tried a few newspapers and mags on it and just didn't enjoy 'em. That said, if I find a good long article somewhere online, I'll copy and paste it into a Word file, email it to Amazon and let them convert it and zap it into the Kindle. The whole process takes a couple of minutes - I hate reading anything long on a computer screen.

As for the Reader, they'll have 'em in PDF format, which I'll probably download and print out. I'll spend a little on paper and ink, but I'll also get it the same day as everyone else, instead of sometimes being a month ahead of or behind the curve. To me, this is not a major hassle and has its upsides.

-Ray

[Joellogicman]

That said, if I find a good long article somewhere online, I'll copy and paste it into a Word file, email it to Amazon and let them convert it and zap it into the Kindle. The whole process takes a couple of minutes - I hate reading anything long on a computer screen.

I am vaguely aware of this function but have not bothered to follow through. I will give it a try.

I agree, it is much easier to read on the Kindle than computer screen - although some of the new lap tops are getting pretty good.

Back on topic, I owned a Rivendell but sold it as it was pretty close in size and function to one of my customs. I considered selling the custom. In the long run, I think the Riv reputation did me better on eBay than if I were to have auctioned the arguably superior but somewhat obscure custom.

When I buy new parts if Riv has them, I go there first. Frankly, I prefered Velo-Orange in the early days when Chris would source wonderful obscure old French parts. Especially when one considers how much trouble an established maker like Berthoud has had bringing out his new saddles, I wonder how good all the new stuff from Taiwan factories VO is starting to crank out.

[eddief]

with green paint suggests the guy knows a thing or two about fine bikes. maybe that's enough?

[gdw]

I thought the photos just showed that Grant knows more about marketing and sales than his average client. It's an early 90's style hybrid frame with drop bars, 650 wheels, and a slack seat tube angle to compensate for short railed Brooks saddles. He's smart and plays the game well whether its intentional or not. Too bad he can't get the customer service end of the business working better because as other folks have pointed out, the parts and gear are available elsewhere for less. Poor customer service is a killer in a lean competitive economy.

Grant is the Luddite version of Gary Fisher. :p

[Joellogicman]

The stuff I have bought from Riv - Nitto bars, Portuguese as opposed to Taiwan made cork grips, Brooks saddle, wool socks, seersucker shirt, and some wool wash - were priced less or about the same as anywhere else selling them new. You can go to VO and buy Taiwan copies of same. Nitto and Brooks have decades of sales behind them. Maybe the knock offs are as good as the real thing. Its your money. I know where I will spend mine.

I would never buy any bike Taiwan made bike - whether it has a Rivendell name or not. But a grand for a bike with that level of lug work does not seem outrageously high to me.

As I say above, I had a Rivendell. The Hilsen. It was an exceptional good looking bike. Fine lug work. Great paint job that held much better than JB paint on one of my customs, btw. Nice curve in the fork opposed to the crappy straight forks every other bike mfg seems to be cranking out these days. A lot of swell braze ons. Room for 35 tires and fenders.

In the end, Grant's marketing acumen did convince me to auction it, however. The Oswald would have never generated the eBay excitement the Rivendell did.

[ggross]

So you'll move on to other people who NEVER had a reader to teach Grant a lesson? I guess you don't like what he stands for all that much.

No I'm not teaching anyone a lesson. I'm making a decision that impacts me. Grant does what he wants. I do what I want. You can do what you want.

Point is that I enjoyed the Reader. There is no reason to become a "member" now with other sources and the posting of the Reader on the web now (which hasn't happened yet).

Just choices. Lighten up a little.