What To Expect From Bike Painter ???

[DHallerman]

Hi,

I recently had a rather high-end steel frame repainted by a well-known bike painter. That was my first time doing such a thing (high-end/well-known; I've had lesser frames painted by lesser lights).

When I got the frame back, after some back-and-forth about color, the beast was (and is) lovely, all shiny and just the colors I wanted. And working with the painter was a good experience -- very professional.

But when I started to reassemble the frame, I found several things that I did not expect. They're listed below.

My question for the group mind: "What degree of finishing work should I expect from a bicycle paint shop?"

Here are the things that disappointed me, all related, and all things I would have thought the painter would have done:

* The fork is 1-inch threaded. I could not install the headset, though, until I chased the threads, since too much primer was there. (Luckily, I have the right tool, but using cutting tools makes me nervous.)

* The bottom bracket shell had enough paint left inside, that its threads needed chasing too. I did a rough job with the Phil Wood stainless steel mounting rings.

* The hole for the rear road brake had so much paint in it, that I could not mount the brake's bolt without first sanding smooth the hole.

* The down tube braze-ons also had extra paint, so that when I installed the cable guides, they pushed out a layer of paint.

I'm not done yet. I hope there's no more tapping or chasing to do, as for the rear derailleur hanger or other braze-ons.

Anyway, your thoughts? Am I expecting too much, in thinking these things should have been done as part of the whole job? Or did the painter do an inadequate post-paint clean up?

Dave, who knows this is going to turn out wonderfully but still when a bike paint job costs a bunch of bucks...

Major Caveat: Even with these complaints, I was so pleased by the paint job and the person doing it, I will be going to them for work again.

[shinomaster]

I've seen a lot of paint jobs where they were kinda thin with the paint in certain places, and areas with too much masking( the edges of the bb shell on one of my bikes is bare.) I'd rather have a thick proper layer of paint rather than a layer that was too thin. It would seem that your painter could have masked a few areas a bit better and taken a bit more care with the threads. Maybe you could give him some constructive feedback?

[TMB]

It all seems pretty minor to me.

Chasing threads is a nothing.

I have been lucky in tha the two frames that Carl Strong has delivered to me have been so perfectly prepped there has been nothing for me to do, I've almost been disappointed.

The frame that I had delivered from Dario Pegoretti required that I chase all threads and ball hone the head tube and seat tube. It only takes an extra 20 mins or so - really not a big deal.

I certainly would not send the Pegoretti back.

The next bike will likely be from either Sam Whittingham or Dave Kirk ( can't decide) - I expect both of those would be in the same camp as Carl Strong.

[Louis]

Perhaps guys like Dave K can explain what a "normal high-end" paint job entails. Since he gets the frames back and does the final prep before shipping he can tell us how much masking might be expected vs what might be beyond "typical."

I would think that minor over spray in the BB shell would be OK, (that what I've seen in my experience) but anything that prevented re-installation of a part would reflect insufficient prep on the painter's part.

Louis

[rex]

That all seems like frame prep that I would expect a shop to do, not the painter.

[Smiley]

The builder or painter if really high end should have adressed these issues. I know they do all this at Serotta.

[mike p]

I would expect to have to chase all threads but nothing else. Any drain or brake holes should be taken care of in the painters prep.



Mike

[BumbleBeeDave]

That all seems like frame prep that I would expect a shop to do, not the painter.

All the stuff you mention could be addressed with either minimal extra masking or, in the case of the brake mount holes or drain holes, having a piece of tube or dowel pre-cut to stick in there. I'm not a pro painter by any means, but I've painted stuff like that with a sprayer before and something as simple as blowing in the hole while the paint is still wet chased the extra paint out of there for me without leaving any bare metal showing. But I'm sure there are some real pros out there who have better methods than this.

BBD

[DHallerman]

I would expect to have to chase all threads but nothing else.
Mike

How many of you own a Park Fork Column Threader Set, for 1-inch English threads (FTS-1)? Really...?

I mean, I'm weird, I have a lot of bike tools, and so I have that device.

But to expect that tool to be available, just so the frame could be built up...

Well, that's when it seemed like a lot to me, especially -- as several respondents have noted -- from a high-end painter.

Dave, who is starting slowing to move to threadless too

[TMB]

How many of you own a Park Fork Column Threader Set, for 1-inch English threads (FTS-1)? Really...?

I mean, I'm weird, I have a lot of bike tools, and so I have that device.

But to expect that tool to be available, just so the frame could be built up...

Well, that's when it seemed like a lot to me, especially -- as several respondents have noted -- from a high-end painter.

Dave, who is starting slowing to move to threadless too

I'm thick.

I don't understand why you had to chase the threads on the steer tube??

Did the painter paint the entire steer tube?

[DHallerman]

I'm thick.

I don't understand why you had to chase the threads on the steer tube??

Did the painter paint the entire steer tube?

No, but the grey primer on it was so thick that the adjusting cup would not thread on past 10 mm.

[maximus]

Thanks for this post.

I am bringing my frame to a powdercoater on sunday and it reinforced some of the concerns I have about masking and being sure that the rebuild goes smooth.

Follow-up work aside, would love to see pics of your re-finished frame.

[soulspinner]

It all seems pretty minor to me.

Chasing threads is a nothing.

I have been lucky in tha the two frames that Carl Strong has delivered to me have been so perfectly prepped there has been nothing for me to do, I've almost been disappointed.

The frame that I had delivered from Dario Pegoretti required that I chase all threads and ball hone the head tube and seat tube. It only takes an extra 20 mins or so - really not a big deal.

I certainly would not send the Pegoretti back.

The next bike will likely be from either Sam Whittingham or Dave Kirk ( can't decide) - I expect both of those would be in the same camp as Carl Strong.


Sam intrigues me as well. My interaction with him was great. And the price he quoted me included any paint scheme I wanted. Little naked men.... ;)

[gemship]

How many of you own a Park Fork Column Threader Set, for 1-inch English threads (FTS-1)? Really...?

I mean, I'm weird, I have a lot of bike tools, and so I have that device.

But to expect that tool to be available, just so the frame could be built up...

Well, that's when it seemed like a lot to me, especially -- as several respondents have noted -- from a high-end painter.

Dave, who is starting slowing to move to threadless too

Exactly right as not too many of us bikers have taps and dies to clean up the threads on a bike frame. There in lies the nugget, as the painter may not of had those proper tools as well. The painter may have assumed you did or that the over spray would be taken care of by whomever would build the bike. I never painted or built a bike but I am a machinist by trade and I have cleaned up plenty of threaded materials with tap and die. It's not a big deal if you have patience, good tools and lube as the metal or threads have already been formed. You're simply pushing the paint out and it takes time. I think a better masking job as others suggested could of been done but I would agree that overspray is better than underspray and you should be all set. Lucky for you that you had those tools, no biggie ;)

[David Kirk]

In my opinion the painter should chase and face everything. It should be ready to hang parts on when you get the bike back. If it's not ready to hang parts on then it's not done.

Back in the bad old days many NEW frames (particularly Italian ones) weren't even chased/faces/reamed when delivered so shops had to own a Campy tool kit so they could finish the builders job - not cool. In effect they let the bike shop finish the building process. A frame that's been repainted to me is the same way. Period. The frame was delivered to the painter in a ready to assemble condition and it should certainly leave that way too. The owner of the bike should not be expected to have a steerer die or a bottom bracket tap in their tool box nor should they have to bring it to their local shop and let them learn how to chase threads on your frame.

If I were having a frame repainted I'd ask the painter what I can expect when it gets back to me and what state of prep it will be in. Painters often dislike doing that prep work because it's possible they will chip or scratch the frame while doing it - so they pass it on to you and let you take that risk. That is not fair.

All that ranting aside I suppose that the painter just plain forgot to do that work and it made it out the door. Poop happens.

Have you asked the painter what their policy is on all this?

Dave

[DHallerman]

[snip]...the painter may not of had those proper tools as well. The painter may have assumed you did...[snip]

Does the high-end distinction for this painter matter?

I mean, because of that level of skill, I expected a full job, with a bike ready to build.

I mean, other repairs -- such as filling in dents, and making good for a bent tube -- were done, quite perfectly.

As the OP, my real questions are more about how much should one expect from such a high-end tradesman.

Maybe I just expect too much?

Dave, who hoped to use this end-of-year time to build up a bike or two but finds the extra work plus illness makes for tough slogging

[Louis]

making good for a bent tube

This would bum me out a heck of a lot more than having to chase some of the threaded stuff.

[gemship]

Does the high-end distinction for this painter matter?

I mean, because of that level of skill, I expected a full job, with a bike ready to build.

I mean, other repairs -- such as filling in dents, and making good for a bent tube -- were done, quite perfectly.

As the OP, my real questions are more about how much should one expect from such a high-end tradesman.

Maybe I just expect too much?

Dave, who hoped to use this end-of-year time to build up a bike or two but finds the extra work plus illness makes for tough slogging


Well.... if the alleged high end painter left a orange flake textured finished in addition to the overspray then I may revoke such a esteemed title and reclassify at amateur. However I think it may be safe to say that chasing threads is a whole seperate process of post paint prep in itself. How much chasing I suppose varys in the pre paint masking prep. Perhaps you may politely point out this extra work to the painter. It would be interesting to see his reaction at the least. Just think after a couple of years or a couple thousand miles on this bike to be you'll most likely forget all about it and may be in contact with the painter for some touch up to address those nagging chips on the chainstay.

[Satellite]

Photos please

[DHallerman]

Photos please

I think not. There's anonymity desired here.

And you wouldn't see the problems I talked about anyway. (Fixed and beneath parts and all.)

[Satellite]

I didn't want to see the problems; just wanted to see the finished product.

I have my own horror stories of getting a bike repainted. Lost my headbadge out of the deal and my bike has historic value it is NOT replaceable. Looking back on it I should have left the paint chips and kept the authenticity.

I do like seeing restoration bikes.

Satellite

[Peter P.]

Regardless of the reputation of the painter, the frame should not require additional expense after painting, so the owner can rehang parts on it.

Painters should not have to chase and face everything as it's labor and tool intensive. They should be thorough enough to mask what needs to be paint-free.

You're fortunate you had the tools to fix the problems. I'd at least send a letter to the painter and "play stupid"; ask him if he made a mistake and forgot the masking steps because you had to do all that post-paint prep.

[cpg]

I'd say it depends on what you paid for the job. If was a quick and dirty job (sub $200) then I'd say no complaints. If you paid more then I'd say you have a gripe. SOP for a paint job here and most places I've dealt with is the bb threads are easily kept free of paint with a simple roll of paper. Same for the seat tube id. No paint in the head tube id with paint removed from faces. Paint is left on the bb faces because one never knows what type of bb will be used. The paint can be easily removed with a razor if necessary. Primer on the steering tube is a nice touch but the painter does need to pay attention to the threads. As to the paint getting too thick on the brake hole, it rarely is the paint. It is the clear coat. Nonetheless, that was an easy oversight of the painter. The clear got too thick there. Happens to the best of them especially if the brake hole was drilled to 6mm instead of 1/4". There is no real standard there. Hopefully the clear isn't too thick around the lugs. Anyway I'd say you have a small complaint if everything else is in order which I think you've noted. Perhaps just a friendly reminder to the painter that they need to remain concerned with the threads. Offered as constructive criticism most people will welcome that and all parties involved will benefit. Good luck.

Curt

[Marcusaurelius]

I had a frame painted a couple of years ago and never had to chase any threads. I'd be a bit disappointed if I had to chase the threads in the bottom bracket or fork. I would look for someone who takes a bit more pride in his work and does a complete job.

[hansolo758]

I had a couple of frames painted recently by a well-known high-end builder/painter who posts frequently on this forum. One was a custom frame made for me by another builder and one was a stock frame I had bought new. I had taken excellent care of both. Before painting started, this builder/painter found a few flaws in the frames that had escaped not just me (that would not have been too difficult) but also a very competent mechanic at my LBS. A fork had been bent improperly by the original builder. There was a small dent (which I know I didn't cause or repair) that been clumsily filled in, presumably when the frame was built. This painter/builder took the time to find these problems, tell me about them, and get approval to fix them before he started to paint. There was nothing that needed to be done extra when I got the frames back. Oh, the painting was superb.

My point is that, yes, you should expect a "high-end" painter to chase threads, mask BBs, and clean primer off head tubes. Perhaps, as has been suggested, he or his staff just plain forgot -- systems can break down anywhere, although rarely so at the best places. I agree some polite feedback might be in order. If he's conscientious about his work, he'll appreciate your bringing them to his attention.

In my case, I know who's going to be my next framebuilder and painter.

[Peter P.]

I am bringing my frame to a powdercoater on sunday and it reinforced some of the concerns I have about masking and being sure that the rebuild goes smooth.

I had some non-cycling related parts powdercoated locally from a vendor who was not cycling-centric. They were a serious, ISO 9002 certified vendor who could do the work, but they didn't handle bicycle frames on a regular basis. I knew they were a serious outfit when I was told a "Process Sheet" would have to be drawn up if I wanted a bicycle frame done, which is why the price they quoted to me for a bicycle frame (I was merely curious) was a tad high.

Anyway, their service on my non-bike parts was so exceptional that I had to keep them in mind if I ever wanted them to paint a frame for me. But how do I convey to non-cyclists what should and should not be painted?

The solution is to take photos with a digital camera of all the parts which need masking and write notes "with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explainin' what it was" thank you Arlo Guthrie.

That's what you should do before you bring your frame to the powdercoater.

[vqdriver]

this thread makes some good points.
i wouldn't know what a bike painter does cuz i'm not one, but i know what i'd expect from one, and that is all the work associated with doing the job.
in my experience, good preparation is just as, if not more, important than the actual job, regardless of if it's roofing, taxes, or plumbing.
and if i'm doing the work, i'd prefer to prep it.

[VTCaraco]

Any recommended painters in the upstate NY, southern VT, western MA area?

I still can't decide if I want a high-zoot job or powder-coating (wife's Ted Wojcick hardtail that she uses as a do-everything ride ~~ as much as I'm compelled to go nice the durability/utility of powder-coating also makes sense).
I'd love to put money directly in the hands of a competent painter, if that's a possibility.

Please PM or post if any names come to mind.

[WickedWheels]

Hot Tubes in Worcester

Any recommended painters in the upstate NY, southern VT, western MA area?

I still can't decide if I want a high-zoot job or powder-coating (wife's Ted Wojcick hardtail that she uses as a do-everything ride ~~ as much as I'm compelled to go nice the durability/utility of powder-coating also makes sense).
I'd love to put money directly in the hands of a competent painter, if that's a possibility.

Please PM or post if any names come to mind.

[pdonk]

have not used them, but their work looks good

http://www.viciouscycles.com/paint.php3

[Joellogicman]

Back in the bad old days many NEW frames (particularly Italian ones) weren't even chased/faces/reamed when delivered so shops had to own a Campy tool kit so they could finish the builders job - not cool.

Really good examples can fetch more than $5k from collectors. Even well used kits easily get $2k provided they are complete.

[David Kirk]

Really good examples can fetch more than $5k from collectors. Even well used kits easily get $2k provided they are complete.

Agreed. They are very nice tools. BUT they should not be needed to finish a job left undone IMO.

dave