Driving: What's so fun?

[CNY rider]

I'm not asking for a flame fest.
I'm asking because I just don't seem to feel something that many others here seem to feel and enjoy.

What do you all find so fun and exciting about driving certain cars?

When I think about driving, I think about my drive to work. Four days a week that's 7 miles away and I almost always ride my bike. Driving is a bad day because I'm not riding.
The other day of the week I'm in an office 45 miles away. Very winding, hilly drive. What am I supposed to find so exhilarating? There's a speed limit, other cars, a double yellow in most places. I simply look at the car as a giant hunk of metal carrying me to my destination. I feel nothing when I'm driving; no emotion, no thrill. Totally different from my feelings on the bicycle.
How did we end up with a 2000 pound machine to transport my 148 pound body around? What could possible be exciting about it.

***This does not apply to those of you who actually race your cars. Totally different story.***

[dancinkozmo]

im with you bro !!!
driving = watching tv

[David Kirk]

While I can see your point I do feel differently. I enjoy most all of the driving I do. I like the interaction between me and the car. I like the feeling what the tires are doing on the ground through my hands, feet and butt. I like the sounds and the feeling of weight shift and all that.

For me driving is very much interactive. I almost never drive with the feeling that I'm just along for the ride. I drive like I ride which is that I think about what I'm doing and and what the results of my driving actions are. I like the feeling of machinery regardless of what it is. Just the same way bike shifters feel cool to me so does a good car shifter and so on and so forth.

dave

[Ray]

Driving is like riding in that it can be lots of ways and for lots of reasons. Riding a loaded touring bike or commuter has its own charms, but its not 'fun' in the sense that riding a light and responsive bike is. One is more about function, the other more about feel. Driving a car to work every day or driving a loaded down pickup is a utility experience - not much fun to it and, repeated often enough, it just becomes a chore. But riding a fun little car (or bigger one with enough power on board) and a well balanced chassis and a running through the gears with a fun manual tranny can be a blast. Particularly on a curvy road with little or no traffic. Working the gears to keep in the sweet part of the rev range, learning the handling characteristics and using the accelerator and brakes and gears to affect the weighting and the handling every bit as much as the steering wheel is as much a skill as anything else. And when its all working, it can be pretty magical.

Driving has lost most of its appeal to me and its more of a utility function than anything else anymore, but back in the days of cheap gas and no worries about things like global warming, I used to take weekend road trips from time to time, just to go drive on a bunch of twisty, uncrowded, rural roads.

-Ray

[David Kirk]

im with you bro !!!
driving = watching tv

Wow. I can't imagine feeling that way. Maybe you need to experience driving in a different way. Come by sometime and I'll take you for a ride or better yet let you drive.

Don't just watch the scenery go by, make it go by.

dave

[Bruce K]

Dave, nice explanation.

There is something very tactile and synergous (is that really a word?) when the driver and machine mesh.

Climbing into my old formula car was probably near the pinnacle of that feeling but any well engineered road car gives a large chunk of that feeling as well.

I just can't get enough of our Mini Cooper S on a summer day with a clear and winding road.

BK

[Ken Robb]

driving can be fun but not on staight or crowded roads and anything but those are getting hard to find near my home :(

[jvp]

There is a difference between a 3+ hour interstate road trip, and a fun curvy windy sport drive. I rarely look forward to driving somewhere, usually my destination holds more interest or necessity than the journey. Around here, the N.C. parkway is a nice drive, but I still enjoy the stops along it more.

[eddief]

you are lucky (or planful) to live in a place that is known for wide open spaces. For so many of us who are city bound, driving is more a chore of stop and go, auto trans, torture...much of time. For that reason, I really enjoy my little RAV 4 so much more than the racey 330i. It was the wrong car for me in Berkeley, CA. I have to say at my advanced age, I have pretty much given up on the car thrill in favor of more variety in my cycling vehicles.

I would love to go for a ride or drive that Kirk rocket through the winding roads outside of Bozeman.

[ti_boi]

I like getting there....the faster the better sometimes...other times....slow is fine... :rolleyes:

[David Kirk]

you are lucky (or planful) to live in a place that is known for wide open spaces. For so many of us who are city bound, driving is more a chore of stop and go, auto trans, torture...much of time. For that reason, I really enjoy my little RAV 4 so much more than the racey 330i. It was the wrong car for me in Berkeley, CA. I have to say at my advanced age, I have pretty much given up on the car thrill in favor of more vaiety in my cycling vehicles.

I would love to go for a ride or drive that Kirk rocket through the winding roads outside of Bozeman.

It's true that I don't do any gridlock type driving at all. A few stop lights is all I ever see and most places in Bozeman can be had with very minimal traffic. and yes again that we came here for a reason and the lack of traffic (and people) is one on the reasons. No luck involved really. We chose this place and made many sacrifices to live here and it's all been more than worth it. One can't have it all I suppose.

For me life was too short to spend any of it sitting on a 4 lane highway waiting for the traffic to clear so I can get home. Having a more fun daily driving situation is just one of the smallest benefits of this.

Dave

[rounder]

When i was in high school, the family car was a honduras maroon Impala SS. It was beautiful, but with the small engine and automatic, it was basically a nice looking family car. In college, Dr. No came out. J. Bond drove a Sunbeam Alpine. I got a good deal on a '67 Alpine and it was pretty with lucas rally lights and wire wheels (not a feirce road machine). Drove it through the NH mountains while going to school there. I was into reading about road racing (also watched the road races at Sebring a few times) at the time and learned to heal and toe, and drift around corners. After awhile, the wheels sort of gave out and still remember the sound...sqrauncha sqrauncha sqrauncha while riding along. Last two cars have been A4s with 4 cylinders. Thinking back, every car i ever owned has been 4 cyl. For me, the part i like about driving is being in nice country, with not much traffic and being able to straighten out the road through curves at a nice comfortable speed.

[Louis]

driving = watching tv

Years ago my GF at the time was into cars so going out in my Alfa Spider was a real blast (except when she drove it - just once - I thought we were going to end up wrapped around a telephone pole). My next GF got carsick pretty easily, so no more driving expeditions out in the country. Driving alone isn't as much fun for me and I knew the Alfa was going to become a maintenance nightmare so I sold it. The Integra has more power, and handles pretty well, but boy, even in the hands of a clueless driver like me that Alfa could straighten out those twisty roads.

[CNY rider]

im with you bro !!!
driving = watching tv


Well put.
This really is the feeling I have.
And I live in a place with windy, rural roads, no traffic and no lights.
I guess the whole performance auto thing just isn't for me.
To each his own. :beer:

[Climb01742]

it's a like a lot of things in life.
a really great sound system would be heaven to one...and ho hum to another.
a really great camera would be heaven to one...and ho hum to another.
a really great wine would be heaven to one...and ho hum to another.
it's so personal, it's beyond right and wrong, good and bad.
just different.
the right car on the right road...and for me, it's not even about long drives on great roads, though those are indeed wonderful...it's about small moments of fun you can have every day in a car...a single corner taken well...a single gap shot perfectly...the feel of the road through the wheel...a flawlessly executed downshift...these are things you can feel every day.
most modern cars have numbed us to the pleasures of driving, but find a car without power steering -- like a new lotus or an old 911 -- and i think you might begin to see what we mean.
all that said, cars do it for me. for the mrs, it's shoes. as long as we all find something in life that floats our boat, it's all good, yes? :beer:

[William]

If I have to explain it....you wouldn't understand.



William :)

[tuscanyswe]

some years ago i took lessons in trackdriving as part of getting a forumlalicense.

Was about 3 hour of theory and then 3 hours on the track both days.
The cars were small formula cars similar to formula ford series.

This experience i will always cherish greatly. The exitement when breaking hard into a corner and pushing equally hard on the accellorator when hitting that apex is so much fun and requires total focus and a good deal of nerves.

If you have the oppurtunity to try a trackday with your own car or a real race/formula car you absolutely must take it, u wont regret it!!

Unfortunetly i never took the licence as i could not afford to race anyways. It was rather expensive but worth every penny!

Its hardly anything like driving to work but theres something special about cars and driving that i really like.

[dancinkozmo]

its great that so many of you enjoy driving...in the end youre still inside a climate controlled box looking at the world through a window...theres no comparison , for me anyways, to cycling or motorcycling ....whenever im in a car on a twisty road, i cant help but think how much more fun it would be on my mariposa or ducati...to each his own !!

[toaster]

The problem with driving, IMHO, is that almost anyone can do it from inexperienced teenagers to nearly senile elderly people.

Driving is way too common as well and most people aren't focused on driving well anyway.

Many people can't make turns properly and end up cutting way to the inside over lane lines and then drifting way outside. Add rain or snow to the roads and most motorists won't slow down and end up in ditches.

Oh, and BTW, there are only a minority of bicycle riders worth a damn either but at least they don't kill people driving cars.

[Sandy]

While I can see your point I do feel differently. I enjoy most all of the driving I do. I like the interaction between me and the car. I like the feeling what the tires are doing on the ground through my hands, feet and butt. I like the sounds and the feeling of weight shift and all that.

For me driving is very much interactive. I almost never drive with the feeling that I'm just along for the ride. I drive like I ride which is that I think about what I'm doing and and what the results of my driving actions are. I like the feeling of machinery regardless of what it is. Just the same way bike shifters feel cool to me so does a good car shifter and so on and so forth.

dave


You got it!

Sandy

[dancinkozmo]

While I can see your point I do feel differently. I enjoy most all of the driving I do. I like the interaction between me and the car. I like the feeling what the tires are doing on the ground through my hands, feet and butt. I like the sounds and the feeling of weight shift and all that.

For me driving is very much interactive. I almost never drive with the feeling that I'm just along for the ride. I drive like I ride which is that I think about what I'm doing and and what the results of my driving actions are. I like the feeling of machinery regardless of what it is. Just the same way bike shifters feel cool to me so does a good car shifter and so on and so forth.

dave

Youve obviously never driven the I-69/402/401 between flint MI and toronto Canada ! :D

[victoryfactory]

Every year, I drive cross country in September/October
I load up my car with tent, Camping gear, Bike, National Park Pass, camera etc.

It's my favorite thing to do.

Long distance driving is fun for me. My friends think I'm nuts.

I usually leave NYC at 5:00AM (alpine start) and get to west of St Louis
the first day (about 1100 miles) After another 900 mile day, I slow down when
I hit CO, UT, NM, NV etc which is where I tool around for 2 weeks or so.

It helps to have a good car, for 10 years I drove my Volvo XC70, this year
I got the new Forester, Nice. And better off road too.

VF
Long range driver

[Sandy]

I am an identical twin. We are quite similar in many ways, but quite different in some ways too. His thinking about driving is precisely yours. A car is used to transport you and whatever is in it from point A to point B. It is used for a function. The importance of the car is moving you from one point to another point. A very pragmatic and most reasonable perception/feeling/understanding of what a car is. He drives a SUV.

I drive a Cayman S. Absolutely an absurd choice relative to any measure of practicality/utility/cost/value as it is a two seater mid-engined car with very limited room for people or storage. So why would I chose it? Because to me the important part of driving from point A to point B is not the pragmatic and reasonable aspect of moving myself and whatever I am taking from point A to point B, but the actual drive itself from A to B.

In driving my car, I feel as if I am not a mundane part of the process of driving the car, but as if the car and I interact somewhat as a unit. It communicates remarkably well what it is doing by a precise feeling of where it is and what it is doing (through the tires, steering wheel, and my body). The car possesses a suberb steering feel, superior firm braking, precise and solid shifting, body rigidity, and a strong linear engine that together as a unit translates into a car that produces simply remarkably predictable, balanced, efficient and stable handling. It does precisely what you communicate to it and it does it it a refined manner that instills confidence. That translates into the driver being totally involved in the driving process and that involvement translates into fun and enjoyment. Most cars are not able to produce the almost 1-1 correspondence between driver input and car response.

So a car can be a mode of transportation from point A to point B. That is what they are mostly built for. Or they can be more than that. They can be a mode of enjoyment, fun, and involvement as one goes from A to B. I like that part of driving a car, not for its basic purpose but for its involvement and enjoyment.

I could/should go an important step further by having someone like Dave Kirk or Ken Robb or Ti Designs actually teach me how to really drive the car.

I do agree that roads (and common sense and other drivers) limit how one drives their car, but one can still feel a genuine involvent and excitement in the driving process, just like one can feel on a bike (different but similar).


Sandy

[victoryfactory]

In driving my car, I feel as if I am not a mundane part of the process of driving the car, but as if the car and I interact somewhat as a unit. It communicates remarkably well what it is doing by a precise feeling of where it is and what it is doing (through the tires, steering wheel, and my body). The car possesses a suberb steering feel, superior firm braking, precise and solid shifting, body rigidity, and a strong linear engine that together as a unit translates into a car that produces simply remarkably predictable, balanced, efficient and stable handling. It does precisely what you communicate to it and it does it it a refined manner that instills confidence. That translates into the driver being totally involved in the driving process and that involvement translates into fun and enjoyment. Most cars are not able to produce the almost 1-1 correspondence between driver input and car response.
Sandy

Sandy, well put.

Subaru Forester= Poor Man's Porsche

VF

[Ken Robb]

Sandy, well put.

Subaru Forester= Poor Man's Porsche

VF

I rented one when I visited DBRK and thought it was a nice drive even without the turbo motor. It swallowed 2 bikes easily too.

[slowgoing]

Sandy, well put.

+1!

[victoryfactory]

I rented one when I visited DBRK and thought it was a nice drive even without the turbo motor. It swallowed 2 bikes easily too.

Yep, the '09 Forester is long enough for people to actually sit in the back seat.
And the turbo version is faster than my old Volvo turbo (not quite as smooth,
though) and far better handling.
The Volvo was like a stable rocket ship on the highway, but sluggish, heavy and slow
reacting in town compared to the Subaru.

The Subaru Turbo is like 10K cheaper than a new XC70!

VF

[djg]

I think I'm with Dave K on this. Yes, sitting in traffic sux and I tend to ride my bike to work (in downtown DC) most days and almost always feel the worse for it if something pushes me to drive or take public transportation. Yes, other drivers can suck (although that's true whether I'm driving, riding, walking, or reading the paper).

OTOH, little bits of car/driver/world interaction can be pretty engaging and even fun, and I'm not talking about tearing up residential roads at triple the speed limit either -- just being in touch with driving. Not quite the same, but one of the things I really loved when I rode a motorcycle was the feeling that there was always more acceleration available -- on a steep hill, you didn't need to be moving at an outrageous speed to get that cool faster, faster, faster feeling.

[David Kirk]

OTOH, little bits of car/driver/world interaction can be pretty engaging and even fun, and I'm not talking about tearing up residential roads at triple the speed limit either -- just being in touch with driving. Not quite the same, but one of the things I really loved when I rode a motorcycle was the feeling that there was always more acceleration available -- on a steep hill, you didn't need to be moving at an outrageous speed to get that cool faster, faster, faster feeling.

That's what I'm talking about. It's not how fast you go it's how you go in general.

dave

[DfCas]

I enjoy driving almost any car with a manual transmission on curvy, hilly roads. I enjoy driving no car with an automatic on the interstate or straight and level.

Kind of like cycling.

[David Kirk]

its great that so many of you enjoy driving...in the end youre still inside a climate controlled box looking at the world through a window...theres no comparison , for me anyways, to cycling or motorcycling ....whenever im in a car on a twisty road, i cant help but think how much more fun it would be on my mariposa or ducati...to each his own !!

I think it depends on what you drive and where you drive it. I think trying to relate driving to riding is like comparing apples to oranges. I like both but for different reasons.

The car pictured is my toy/race/summer daily driver car. Nothing compares when it comes to wind in your hair fun. Quicker that most any other car on the road and much quicker that a motorbike when the road gets twisty. And you can drive it to the hardware store and buy flux and bottle bolts!

I'm a practical guy as you can see.

Dave

[fiamme red]

I enjoy driving almost any car with a manual transmission on curvy, hilly roads. I enjoy driving no car with an automatic on the interstate or straight and level.

Kind of like cycling.What's the car equivalent for a fixed-gear? :)

http://www.autocult.com.au/img/gallery/andy4.jpg

[Sandy]

What's the car equivalent for a fixed-gear? :)

http://www.autocult.com.au/img/gallery/andy4.jpg

Lower the air pressure in those tires, please. They look hard as a rock. :)


:banana: Soft Sandy :banana:

[Ken Robb]

Lower the air pressure in those tires, please. They look hard as a rock. :)


:banana: Soft Sandy :banana:
But they get no flats--They are the Armadillo prototypes.

[gemship]

so I read a bunch of post mostly by folks with sporty cars that enjoy them. I used to have a 05' zx10r sportbike. I know its not a car but it is propelled by a engine. I sold the bike for a variety of reasons but the staw that broke the camel's back was a speeding ticket for going 62 in a 40 a couple miles from home. So in saying that I would like to chip in my two pennies. Driving for me would be great fun if there were no speed limits and maybe if we could take a trip back time to the 50's or 60's when things were more simple.

[djg]

What's the car equivalent for a fixed-gear? :)

http://www.autocult.com.au/img/gallery/andy4.jpg

Cool. I didn't know that Tufo made tires for cars too.

[chuckroast]

I'm with Victory Factory, I like to drive. In fact, I did 11 hours behind the wheel of a rented van today driving 700+ miles from Arkansas to Georgia so we can be with my Mom tomorrow for Christmas. Yesterday, we did 5 hours from KC to my son's house. Today's drive included a half hour white knuckler through an epic rainstorm where we were all doing 40 or so with our flashers on.

Why was this enjoyable? Simple, I got to see rural Mississippi today for the first time and it was beautiful, totally worth the effort. I'm glad we didn't fly and quite honestly I had forgotten how much flexibility and utility a minivan has. I might have to get one again.

[Ti Designs]

It's not just about driving, it's about how much of yourself you put into any task. Predictably, many people on this forum have made it about the machine - if it's the car that gets you excited about driving I would suggest you skip reading this...

Any activity has it's equipment, and requires some form of skill and effort. Some put 100% of themselves into it and get the most out of it, others put little in and complain, dream or make up excuses about the equipment. I'm not just talking cycling or driving here. I'll use the example of going to the gym as it's been on my mind a lot as of late. Nobody gets excited about the equipment at the gym, that's not what it's all about. Few even look forward to going to they gym, most feel they need to go to keep their weight in check. At my gym there are maybe a half dozen people who are putting 100% effort into their workouts. Those would be the same people who don't complain about their time spent there - they're making the most of their time.

Driving is very much the same, but nobody sees it. Most people will do anything to escape having to pay attention to the act of driving their cars - you see people on the cell phone pulling out of parking spaces, from the time the key unlocks the steering, they need to be distracted. Driving is an activity, one which can be done with great skill or almost no skill. Car control is the name of the game, what you do at 10mph translates to what you would do at 100mph. The foundation of performance driving is to use as little of the grip of the tires as possible at any given speed, keeping the contact force of the tires constant and limiting the change in slip angle. This can be practicced at any speed.

If you haven't guessed by now, I'm all about the performance of the driver or rider - what they drive or ride is easy to change, the skill level is the hard part. I will never understand how it's OK to suck at things you spend so much time doing. Along the same lines, I will never understant how anyone can suck and still focus on the equipment more than the person using it. Knowledge and skills are the only things we get to keep. Cars come and go, last year's hot bike equipment is now boaring (anyone still get all excited about a Sram Red group???), the skill of doing anything is what you take with you. If you think an activity is boaring, you don't understand the skill or knowledge behind it. (that said, I fell asleep in physics lecture all the time...)

[eddief]

it just ain't the same unless you have hair.

[victoryfactory]

Most people will do anything to escape having to pay attention to the act of driving their cars - you see people on the cell phone pulling out of parking spaces, from the time the key unlocks the steering, they need to be distracted. Driving is an activity, one which can be done with great skill or almost no skill. Car control is the name of the game, what you do at 10mph translates to what you would do at 100mph. The foundation of performance driving is to use as little of the grip of the tires as possible at any given speed, keeping the contact force of the tires constant and limiting the change in slip angle. This can be practicced at any speed.

If you haven't guessed by now, I'm all about the performance of the driver or rider


Whenever I drive (or ride a bike) my goal is to be like an airline pilot. Smooth, careful, attentive
but also as fast as possible.
I like to drive (or ride) with no drama, but at the same time aware of the machine
beneath me, it's capabilities and characteristics. I'm interested in form and
technique and the beauty of motion and application of power, under control.

Driving along an empty interstate out west with the cruise control set at 85 as I
scan the surroundings and monitor the car's performance and enjoy the
sense of motion and the scenery is just as much fun as any other
machine/human interaction.

Happy Christmas to ALL.
VF

[David Kirk]

Whenever I drive (or ride a bike) my goal is to be like an airline pilot. Smooth, careful, attentive
but also as fast as possible.
I like to drive (or ride) with no drama, but at the same time aware of the machine
beneath me, it's capabilities and characteristics. I'm interested in form and
technique and the beauty of motion and application of power, under control.

Driving along an empty interstate out west with the cruise control set at 85 as I
scan the surroundings and monitor the car's performance and enjoy the
sense of motion and the scenery is just as much fun as any other
machine/human interaction.

Happy Christmas to ALL.
VF


Boy I just couldn't agree more. Life's too short to not be engaged with what you are doing at every possible moment. For me engagement brings pleasure and joy.

Dave

[thrasher]

I'll bet some of these guys who think driving is a chore would change there tune if they rode a motorcycle.

But then again with attention span of 80% of drivers, it's like Russian Roulette anymore. :crap:

[thrasher]

I enjoy driving no car with an automatic on the interstate or straight and level.



I like it. But it's gotta to have a minimum of 400HP.

[thrasher]

It's not just about driving, it's about how much of yourself you put into any task.

Bingo. You don't just show up at work and stand there do you. Well maybe if you work at WallyWorld. But my point is you work at it.You work at being better at it. You work at being better at it every time your behind the wheel.

Racing drivers learn new stuff all the time. The more disengaged you are with driving the more of a loaded weapon your vehicle becomes.

[Viper]

A master who makes a surfboard for me, the board does make a difference.

A master who makes a bike frame for me, the frame does make a difference.

Driving? BMW's marketing offers the ultimate driving and Sandy owns an M3, end of story. Sandy owns an M3. Say it.

Driving is so much fun, they turned it into a sport. For me, I appreciate the craftsmanship BMW puts into their cars. Subaru may have corned a politcal, green, cycling machine, but until Subaru can eliminate the valve chatter/lifter noise of their engines, I'm out; I can hear a Subaru engine five miles away. That said, the Ru' WRX always looks fun.

What's so fun about driving? Fun can be interpreted several ways...knowing one's car is built safely, is green and gets 50mpg, has 300+HP or a combination of many elements.

What would Jonathon Livingston Seagull drive?

[victoryfactory]

Subaru may have corned a politcal, green, cycling machine, but until Subaru can eliminate the valve chatter/lifter noise of their engines, I'm out; I can hear a Subaru engine five miles away.

I was wondering what that sound was....
The salesman told me it was the sound of freedom.

VF

[nobrakes]

I used to think that I'd miss driving after my traumatic brain injury got my license yanked, but from what I've seen by being a passenger and riding my bike, driving a car just doesn't seem much fun, anymore. Too much competition for limited roadway, drivers who think they have some priority over you, be it riding, walking, or as a passenger in another car.
I have a problem with high performance cars that zoom up to stop signs and crosswalks so quickly that I have to ask myself if they can really stop in such a short distance? I know they've got ABS, 9"wide tires, massive disk brakes, etc., but why must they approach stops like they're in a gran prix? Especially when I feel that they have barely noticed me in the crosswalk, or on my bike. Puts my heart in my throat!
Also, driving couldn't be that fun if they have to be alternately amused with cell phone conversations, etc.
I used to think I'd miss driving, but I have since realized that it was never about fun for me, more about freedom.

[Polyglot]

I used to live in the foothills of Italy, first in the foothills of the Dolomites, then the foothills of the Alps. I loved taking my Alpine Renault up into the hills and just let it rip. On the rare occasion that you would come across traffic, you had the power and the grip to overcome most obstacles. Having a well-sorted car and knowing how to drive it made up for small engine and few horses. When I brought the same car over to New Jersey, it was total boredom. Nowhere to test the suspension and grip, no opportunity to get the most out of the available gears and knowing when to upshift or downshift to keep the engine "ready", no road offering potential passing openings... a total waste of car and opportunity. Apart from a few roads in the Adirondacks, I can't say I have driven any roads remotely as challenging as those I drove on regularly in Italy. Unfortunately, even in Italy, speed has been targeted as an evil of society that must be stamped out and the roads with no speed controls or checks, and without solid center lines are becoming rarer and rarer. Oddly enough, driving an underpowered car like a Smart now gives me more pleasure and satisfaction than driving some "poseur" car like an M3.

[Ken Robb]

[QUOTE=. Oddly enough, driving an underpowered car like a Smart now gives me more pleasure and satisfaction than driving some "poseur" car like an M3.[/QUOTE]

Oh please don't start calling Sandy, me and others names so late in the thread.

[Climb01742]

ken's point is a good one. isn't it the driver, not the car, that makes a poseur?

[Sandy]

I used to live in the foothills of Italy, first in the foothills of the Dolomites, then the foothills of the Alps. I loved taking my Alpine Renault up into the hills and just let it rip. On the rare occasion that you would come across traffic, you had the power and the grip to overcome most obstacles. Having a well-sorted car and knowing how to drive it made up for small engine and few horses. When I brought the same car over to New Jersey, it was total boredom. Nowhere to test the suspension and grip, no opportunity to get the most out of the available gears and knowing when to upshift or downshift to keep the engine "ready", no road offering potential passing openings... a total waste of car and opportunity. Apart from a few roads in the Adirondacks, I can't say I have driven any roads remotely as challenging as those I drove on regularly in Italy. Unfortunately, even in Italy, speed has been targeted as an evil of society that must be stamped out and the roads with no speed controls or checks, and without solid center lines are becoming rarer and rarer. Oddly enough, driving an underpowered car like a Smart now gives me more pleasure and satisfaction than driving some "poseur" car like an M3.

What is it, please, that makes an M3 (or actually any car) a poeseur car? My 1997 M3 is the best all around car that I ever drove or owned. It has a remarkable linear smooth engine, absolutely awesome brakes, great steering with excellent road feel, excellent 5 speed shifting, utility- rear seats fold down- great for my dog, and has held up better than any car I have ever owned. It is as fun to drive as the day I bought it.

The fact that you probably can drive it better than I is meaningless to me. It has been a real joy to own over the years. I would guess (strongly think) that Ken Robb could drive it better than you, but once again, so what?

Why you would suggest that an M3 is a "poseur" car is a little baffling. Is it because it is a BMW? Or what?

The criteria for a car to be a "poseur" car are what, if I may ask you?

Why do people make judgements about other people because of what they own, with absolutley no genuine knowledge of the person or why they own what they own? It is almost silly to me. Judge people for who they are and not what they have.


Sandy

[csm]

personally I think the drivers of cars like the Smart Car and the Prius are the poseurs. there seems to be a certain "smugness" and "holier than thou" with some drivers of these cars.

[gemship]

personally I think the drivers of cars like the Smart Car and the Prius are the poseurs. there seems to be a certain "smugness" and "holier than thou" with some drivers of these cars.


that may be true but I don't know anybody who owns those kind of cars. They are cool and kind of trendy though, a green way. I think that's the allure. I mean people buying those cars are in the market for a compact, green car and want to buy new for all the reasons to buy new. Personally I can't afford either and I can't see much savings despite high gas cost when I could just go out and get a clean used five year old honda civic, toyota echo ect. Would you mind giving a ex. of this so called "smugness"?

[Ken Robb]

I don't think it's a good idea to give examples of "Poseurs" or "Smugness" in a forum of friends. I can see sound reasons for some folks to buy a Prius because it is a practical mover of goods and people that gets excellent mileage. I think a regular Civic would be better for me and cost less too if fuel economy were more important to me.

The only practical advantage I see in a Smart is it's ability to squeeze into tight parking spots in NYC. All the other crowded cities I have driven in have lined parallel spaces for parking meters so a really short car doesn't help. They don't get really high mileage and require premium fuel so there are lots of more economical cars with more room and comfort.

Now I'm pretty sure I won't be stepping on anyone's toes in our group when I say if you want to see my idea of a poseur's car look up Excaliber (Excalibre?) or Zimmer and see my opinion as to the epitome of such vehicles. :)

[gemship]

What's so bad about smugness? I'm genuinely curious. My luck today will be the day I go for a ride and get cut off by someone driving a Prius pulling a California stop at a four way with no apologies :p

all in the vane of their passion behind the wheel as driving is so much fun :bike:

[Ti Designs]

ken's point is a good one. isn't it the driver, not the car, that makes a poseur?


I think that we would have to settle on some definition of the word poseur, but if ever we could come to that agreement, the answer would be both.

I take the word poseur to mean someone who puts out an image they can't back up. The guy who drives the sports car but has no driving skills to speak of or someone who drives a so called green car but leads a life that's anything but green. Calling anyone you know little about a poseur is a low percentage stab in the dark at best - how well do you know anyone from an internet forum???

It's never black and white. People who drive smart cars in a world full of SUVs think they are being green. Take a step back for a second and take in the whole picture. Is there a 3 ton heap of steel, glass and plastic rotting in some junkyard because it was replaced by this new "green" vehicle? Is that not an impact on the planet? The smart car, as small as it is, is still 1000 times more vehicle than a bicycle. If they go the same places and take the same number of people, just how economical is that? It's a huge bell curve, the best any one individual can do is look at themselves and try to move to the far side of the curve as much as possible.

The same thing can be said for sports cars and performance driving. I have never understood the guys with the hot sports cars who never make any attempt at gaining skills, but there are plenty of them out there. Read most of the posts in the past pages and you'll see claims of cars that "rewrite the laws of physics". They don't. Those are the people who get themselves into trouble because they expect unrealistic things from the car (or bike) when it's really the driver (or rider) at the controls who's to blame. Look at the economics of it - it costs less to take a half dozen performance driving classes than it does to get on the brakes hard in a 911 on wet roads, swap ends and back into whatever you were trying to avoid. Oddly enough, of the half dozen times I've seen exactly that, none of the drivers had ever really learned how to drive their cars. Why are there more Hondas than Porsches at a PCA meet?

The bottom line is always the same, each person must take a good look at themselves and decide if they are all they can be. If the answer is "no" but they have the car to make up for it, I would say the term Poseur fits. I tend to go the other direction. Working on my own skills is always first and formost, I can always add the car later. My lap times on the local tracks is faster in most cases while driving an SCCA showroom stock Neon than most of the BMW "ultimate driving machines". It's not the car, trust me.

[csm]

I stand by my earlier post that a Prius or any other hybrid is not the evniromentally sound choice; those batteries come from somewhere and they do have to be disposed of.
the smart car on the other hand.... I don't see the appeal. it is basically the perfect car, as noted above, for NYC and such. but there is plenty of public transportation available at the same time. my brother lives in DC and I am a bit jealous at times at the fact that he is carless. he rides or does the metro.
given the size of a smart and the size of everything else out there, honda civiccs included, and I would feel outgunned driving one.

[goonster]

My 1997 M3 is the best all around car that I ever drove or owned. It has a remarkable linear smooth engine, absolutely awesome brakes, great steering with excellent road feel, excellent 5 speed shifting, utility- rear seats fold down- great for my dog, and has held up better than any car I have ever owned. It is as fun to drive as the day I bought it.

Sandy, why'd you get an M3, and not a 328is? How often have you been to HPDE or other track events? I'm genuinely curious.

A car is just a car, but in the outer boroughs and NJ it does sometimes seem like an M3 is the standard ride of the spiky-haired untucked dress shirt douchebag set. And i'm a CCA E30 driver, mind you . . .

I don't know much, but I know this: if Ken drives it, it's not a poseur car! :banana:

[goonster]

I can hear a Subaru engine five miles away.

You say that like it's a bad thing. :rolleyes:

I don't know what you're hearing from "five miles away", but "valve chatter" is not it.

[thrasher]

personally I think the drivers of cars like the Smart Car and the Prius are the poseurs. there seems to be a certain "smugness" and "holier than thou" with some drivers of these cars.

I was watching an episode of Top Gear a few days ago.
**I'm not sure if all my facts are straight but for the most part they are what the show reported.**
They said that a group of environmentalists in the UK did a study on the Prius to see just how environmentally friendly it was.

They found that the battery was a real problem. The nickle comes out of a mine in Canada. That destroys the land and the air (think greenhouse gasses and trashed soil). Then it had to be shipped to China to be smelted. Greenhouse gasses again because of the diesel. Then shipped to Japan to make it a battery.
Then it again gets shipped across the world for distribution using even more diesel. That takes a lot of diesel fuel.

Then they had to account for the average lifespan of the battery and the disposal of said battery. Then account for the gas the vehicle used in it's average lifetime. Then add it all up to get the full effect on the environment.

In the end they found the result was that the Prius has a more damaging effect on the environment than a Toyota Highlander.

My friend's daughter HAD a Prius for 5 years. The warranty had just ended and guess what happened....
The battery needed to be replaced. Not only wouldn't Toyota cover it but that battery cost just under 5,000 to replace. I'm not saying they are all going to do that but sheesh..

Who's the poseur?

[Ray]

The same thing can be said for sports cars and performance driving. I have never understood the guys with the hot sports cars who never make any attempt at gaining skills, but there are plenty of them out there. Read most of the posts in the past pages and you'll see claims of cars that "rewrite the laws of physics". They don't. Those are the people who get themselves into trouble because they expect unrealistic things from the car (or bike) when it's really the driver (or rider) at the controls who's to blame.
Maybe they're just trying to get laid. Maybe it works every now and then. So, good for them.

I damn sure agree that you need to have a lot of respect for a top end sports car. Driving a car with rear wheel drive and a lot of power is a good way to get in trouble if you don't know what you're doing. I learned this very quickly (and fortunately, painlessly) when I was about 18 and drove a friend's new Porsche for the first time and did a full 360 the first time I decided to really "test it" in a corner. Amazingly, I didn't hit anything or hurt anyone, so it was just a good lesson to learn. I was used to driving underpowered front wheel drive cars which are great daily drivers but they sure don't prepare you for a real sports car. I'm more experienced and a better driver now but I know my limits and a car like a Porsche would be a REALLY stupid thing for me to own.

-Ray

[victoryfactory]

Subaru 2.5 Liter Turbo Engine Named International Engine of the Year

Cherry Hill, NJ, May 8, 2008 — Subaru’s 2.5-liter Boxer turbo engine has won the 2008 International Engine of the Year award in the 2.0-liter to 2.5-liter category.

“This is a testament to the unique design qualities of our Boxer engine,” said Tim Mahoney, senior vice president and chief marketing officer for Subaru of America, Inc. “Subaru has been producing Boxer engines for over 40 years and we are delighted to once again be recognized by the International Engine of the Year Awards committee.”

Juror, Christophe Congrega of L’Automobile Magazine, stated that the Subaru engine is: “A 2.5-liter Boxer full of torque and power.” This statement is backed up by the fact that Subaru’s Boxer engine beat BMW’s 2.5-liter 6 cylinder engine twice in its category for the International Engine of the Year Award in the last three years.

The 65 judges on the International Engine of the Year Awards 2008 committee were impressed with the Subaru Boxer engine’s power in the 4 cylinder 305 hp Subaru Impreza WRX STI, but were equally impressed with the performance of the 2.5-liter turbo in the 224 hp Subaru Forester. The engine is also found in the 224 hp Subaru WRX and in naturally aspirated form in the 170 hp 2.5i Subaru Impreza and Subaru Forester. The jury noted that aside from being a performance powerhouse, the Subaru Boxer engine offers impressive fuel economy.

As judge Nikos Kounitis stated, “This powerful, fun-to-drive engine justifies Subaru’s persistence in Boxer engines.”

I guess the funny noise didn't bother them.......

[L84dinr]

stuck in traffic, stuck in the fast lane behind some numbskull who thinks they control the speed of traffic, watching people read, apply make-up, talk on the phone, change cds radio their shirts... not so much fun.

However i have to drive , i am a semi professional truck driver. Semi 'cause i have refused to get my CDL and have paid the price due to my lack of a CDL, but that is for another time.

However, because i drive, me and my family have been able to see this great big beautiful country of oUrS. The trade offs are more than worth it! From Diamond lake and Crater Lake to the Sanibel Islands and Many points in between.
Me 'n the missus have even done some touring via M/C; but with three childrens, the truck and fifth wheel is the main mode of transpo these days.

take it easy!

[Sandy]

Sandy, why'd you get an M3, and not a 328is? How often have you been to HPDE or other track events? I'm genuinely curious.

A car is just a car, but in the outer boroughs and NJ it does sometimes seem like an M3 is the standard ride of the spiky-haired untucked dress shirt douchebag set. And i'm a CCA E30 driver, mind you . . .

I don't know much, but I know this: if Ken drives it, it's not a poseur car! :banana:

Clearly, there are 2 limiting factors in driving my M3 or Cayman S to their full potential- One being where I drive them (street versus track) and the second being who the driver is- me, versus someone who is more skilled. I have wanted to learn more about driving either car- especially the Cayman S so that I would be able to better understand what the car would do and what I should do with the car if it did something that I was not prepared for, based upon my input. More of a safety issue as opposed to actually maximizing the car's potential on the street. Needless to say, one cannot come close to either car's limits in most normal driving situations. A track would be necessary for such, especially the Cayman S.

I have never participated in driving courses for either car. I looked into it for both cars, especially the Cayman S, but never acted upon such. I put off the classes- a rather poor but characteristic manner in which I often do things. Obviously, I never approach the car's potential, nor even mine, as I have not learned how to really drive either car efficiently and effectively.

I don't even think the 328i existed when I bought my car. I did ride one when my daughter was looking for cars and was quite impressed by it.

I know if I took some driving courses I would enjoy both cars more, even in the street, as I would be a safer (anyone would) driver and would be better prepared to safely make driving decisions that I am not prepared to do presently. The driving lessons would be well worth the monetary expenditure. I realize that and have so for quite some time. Lots of things I should do, that I don't.

On the other hand, one can still enjoy a car a great deal, without being able to enjoy it at the level at which you, Ken Robb, ot Ti Designs can. I am but a recreational cyclist with very limited skills (especially handling) when it comes to bikes. But I am aware and sensitive enough to genuinely appreciate a Serotta over lots of other bikes. I find them to be extremely stable, especially at speed, transfer pedal input very efficiently into forward motion, give a very balanced front/rear feeling, and instill agreat deal of confidence. I test rode well over 15 bikes in 1998 before I decided on the Serotta CSI. Even with my limited riding abilities, I felt that the Serottas had charateristics that I did not find in any other bikes I rode (I realize that fit was/is a critical issue).

I was going to buy a 2007 335i coupe but did not like the steering at all- Too numb, with too little road feel and feedback. My 1997 M3 had steering that I felt to be superior, and even with my lowly driving abilities, I knew that the steering on the 335i was not what I wanted. I test rode the Cayman S, and loved all aspects of the handling of the car- including the remarkable steering it possesses. I am not able to drive the M3 or the Cayman S anywhere near how you can drive it, nor am I able to ride a Serotta (or most any bike) anywhere as well as Ti Designs can, but I still have the ability and sensitivity to actually feel significant positive differences in my CDA over other bikes (understand the fit is critical) and my M3 and Cayman S over other cars.

Bottom line- no driving lesson or track experience. I know I would be a much better driver and enjoy the process of driving if I took some courses. I know that Ti Designs can make me a better cyclist by improving my pedal stroke, teach me how to incorporate/fire different muscle groups more efficiently and effectively..... It just takes effort. Similar to learning how to drive a car and more efficiently/effectively.

I don't have spiked hair- Don't have much hair at all.
Almost never drive in a dress shirt.
Hopefully, I am not a douchebag. I do use a saddlebag when cycling.

You can make generalizations about people (and dogs too), but they are often incorrect. All BMW drivers are not the same, nor are all pit bulls.


Sandy

[gemship]

I never thought I would say this but I just had fun driving my 5-speed Toyota Tundra today. I thought I would get out of the house, do some food shopping and use my truck as it has been sitting for six days not used. Well upon entering the on ramp to make the 12 mile commute back home I observed this tremendous pile of cut Maple tree logs. Being the Johnny on the spot that I was and using wood as my only source of heat I just couldn't resist pulling over. Loaded up the eight foot bed, the look on other drivers faces priceless. I do have fun when my Tundra earns it's payload. You know I'm not rich but if I wanted there are a lot of very fast, powerful cars I could own with all the bells and whistles. I don't mean just own but pay cash for but I'm a one car kind of guy and for eight years now my Tundra has simply earned its payload in situtuations like this. Oh what a feeling..... :p

[Viper]

Subaru 2.5 Liter Turbo Engine Named International Engine of the Year

Cherry Hill, NJ, May 8, 2008 — Subaru’s 2.5-liter Boxer turbo engine has won the 2008 International Engine of the Year award in the 2.0-liter to 2.5-liter category.

“This is a testament to the unique design qualities of our Boxer engine,” said Tim Mahoney, senior vice president and chief marketing officer for Subaru of America, Inc. “Subaru has been producing Boxer engines for over 40 years and we are delighted to once again be recognized by the International Engine of the Year Awards committee.”

Juror, Christophe Congrega of L’Automobile Magazine, stated that the Subaru engine is: “A 2.5-liter Boxer full of torque and power.” This statement is backed up by the fact that Subaru’s Boxer engine beat BMW’s 2.5-liter 6 cylinder engine twice in its category for the International Engine of the Year Award in the last three years.

The 65 judges on the International Engine of the Year Awards 2008 committee were impressed with the Subaru Boxer engine’s power in the 4 cylinder 305 hp Subaru Impreza WRX STI, but were equally impressed with the performance of the 2.5-liter turbo in the 224 hp Subaru Forester. The engine is also found in the 224 hp Subaru WRX and in naturally aspirated form in the 170 hp 2.5i Subaru Impreza and Subaru Forester. The jury noted that aside from being a performance powerhouse, the Subaru Boxer engine offers impressive fuel economy.

As judge Nikos Kounitis stated, “This powerful, fun-to-drive engine justifies Subaru’s persistence in Boxer engines.”

I guess the funny noise didn't bother them.......


We judge with our wallets and mine knows the BMW inline-six is the sapientia et eloquentia. I don't believe it's possible to have a BMW vs. Subaru thread. I read on some forum that R2-D2 was made by BMW and C3-PO was made by Subaru. I do respect their WRX and nothing else they manufacture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA-egZ9pVB8

BMW = Eddy

Subaru = Riccardo Riccò

A four cylinder turbo? I can't get behind that, it's disposable and a toy.

[Ken Robb]

Let me write a bit about M3s. The original e-30 model that arrived in the USA was specifically designed for success in German Touring Car Racing Series. For a car to be eligible for that series the manufacturer had to sell a specified minimum number to the public. It may have been 5000 cars. So what a buyer got was a de-tuned race car that was a lot of fun on a race track or a deserted twisty road but not really wonderful on the street. The engines were rather large 4 cylinder (2.3 and later 2.5 litre) with no balance shafts to quell vibrations. They didn't have much power below 4000 rpm so a driver had to keep the revs up and endure the vibration. At the same time BMW was offering the 325is with its lovely 2.5 litre 6 cylinder--smooth as silk and a broad torque band plus a sport suspension that was a great compromise between ride and handling for a lot less $$$. My good friend, instructor and competition driver was sales manager at a local BMW dealer and he jumped on an '88 M3 as his free demo. After a short time he traded it for a 325is because driving a "racr car" , even de-tuned< on the street wasn't much fun.
LOts of my pals still treasure their "real M3" but they use them for "sunny day in the mountains" or track day toys.

The e-36 M3 came to the USA as a 1995 model. It was, you should pardon the term, a hy-brid. BMW AG in Germany thought bringing their new M3 with 286HP to the USA would be a waste of time because we had no autobahn where its performance could be used. We were already getting the 325is and later the 328is (with 188-192 HP as I recall) and sport suspension which should have been plenty.

Canada got a small number of new M3s and the smuggling began. Besides the extra power the M3 suspension and breakes were capable of higher perfformance than even the 3 series is models. The M3 6 was also designed for racing with much of its power available above 4,000 rpm but, being and in-line 6, was inherently very smooth.

BMW North America heard its customers clamoring for M cars and pressured BMW AG to provide them. AG didn't want to spend the $$ to de-smog their Euro motor to sell here. In fact, had it been done, the engine might have run very poorly with lousy power and fuel economy since it was designed for racing with no regard for smog control from the get-go.

The solution was a "special" M3 for the USA. It was essentially a Euro model with a modified street engine. It had a single throttle body rather than the 6 individual ones of the euro/race design and hydraulic valve lash adjusters rather than the shim adjusters of the Euro motor.

Lots of the USA fans screamed that we were cheated out of the "real deal".
We got 240HP instead of 286hp in the Euro motor. But it cost a lot ($10,000 or so) less than the Euro car, required much less routine maintenance, and had the most usable smooth power rom 2000-6500rpm of anything I had driven to that point. My 1998 with 134,000 miles still get 23.5 mpg average in my daily driving and provides all the power I NEED. A little more could be fun once in a while. :)

I used to fantasize about dropping this engine into a 525i sedan or 525ti wagon for a roomy, good handling car with plenty of beans.

Meanwhile many of the Europeans who got to drive our M3s thought we got the better deal on the price/performance continuum.

So a 1995-1999 US model M3 is an eminently practical car that is delightful to drive by anyone. They were even available with a 5 speed automatic behind a slightly detuned engine of 225HP. The brakes and handling are still world-class or sedans today.

Before I bought my 1998 M3 I had a 1992 325i with modified suspension and engine software. I think it was as fast at the track as my stock M3 but the ride was a little rougher and I had to run the engine to 7,000 RPM to keep up with M cars.

The e-46 M3 got into the realm of "where can I use this power on the street?"
I never really considered buying one. Don't even get me started on the new M5, M6, or M3 as being wretched excess. They are so fast that I'm not keen to get into the passenger's seat beside a student and help him extract the performance he paid for. It takes a world-class race driver to do that ATMO.

The 335i and 135i are amazing cars. They have almost the same speed potential as the e-46 M3 but it is accessible at any RPM from 2,000 up. They get 23-25 mpg in my pals' daily driving and 28+ mpg on the highway. Your Granny could drive one for years and never know what potential she had under her right foot. The 300 HP according to some folks in the know is VERY conservatively rated so they don't kill M car sales. Steve Dinan has some mods to intake/exhaust and engine management that bumps the power way up with no negative effect on smoothness or economy if you don't floor it too much.

[Climb01742]

i don't think anyone -- except maybe hummer drivers :rolleyes: -- need ever apologize for or even explain what they drive or why.

should everyone who eats in a great restaurant be able to cook the same meal?

should everyone who sees a great film be able to direct one themselves?

should everyone who hears a great symphony be able to write one?

should everyone who goes to the metropolitan museum of art be barred from entering unless they are capable of painting something the met would hang?

we are all out of our league in some, perhaps even many, aspects of our lives. who the hell cares? if i can sip a glass of wine and have a palette capable of only appreciating half of the wine's complexity, yet i still love it, so what? if it brings me joy, who beyond me has the right to pass judgment?

sandy, drive whatever you want and can afford. no one here has the right to judge you.

[Ti Designs]

Sandy,

If ever you do decide to take a performance driving class, leave the high performance cars at home. Horsepower has this way of getting you in trouble. I have friends who ran a Solo2 school, the new drivers would spend most of their time in 2nd generation Honda Civics. The basics of performance driving are the same between your basic econobox and your race preped supercar, it's just a lot safer in the econobox. If you insist on spending money, get two sets of Simpson camlock harnesses (you'll need two for the driving schools). If you're looking for the best training aid, mount a wok in or on the car somewhere (bolting a wok onto your Porsche is punishable by death in some states), put a tennis ball in it and learn how to drive without launching the ball out of the wok. You can get an expensive 2D accelerometer data logger, but the ball and wok trick works better.

Learning how to get the most out of a high performance car takes a number of steps. In an econobox it's all about preservation of momentum, when you add real horsepower you learn that it's about staying in the throttle more. It's a totally different line, but you start with the econobox and work your way up. Big mistakes with a race car are really big mistakes. When you first switch to race rubber you think "these things have real grip!". When you first get beyond the limit of race rubber you learn that it's a line best not crossed very often. These are the reasons I'm so against the guys who can afford high powered sports cars just going out and buying them. They just don't understand what they are getting themselves into.

There's a whole other category that nobody has brought up - what I like to call the CEO cars like the AMG5.5. Spectacular performance numbers in testing one thing at a time. You just know the guy buying it hasn't taken any driving classes and probably never will. So they put in traction control to keep the whole thing safe. There is the obvious problem - the traction control has no idea what's coming up. But it's when they get the idea that it's a super sports car in pinstripes that it gets entertaining. Non-defeatable traction control for street cars is NOT a performance advantage. If you think it is, pull it onto your local track on a lapping day and take a few laps. That smoke pouring out all four wheel wells is the traction control not understanding slip angles (the difference between wheel direction and travel direction based on side load and sidewall flex of the tire).

[Ti Designs]

if i can sip a glass of wine and have a palette capable of only appreciating half of the wine's complexity, yet i still love it, so what? if it brings me joy, who beyond me has the right to pass judgment?

That glass of wine isn't going to swap ends and back end itself into something at 40 MPH if you suddenly stop drinking it while in a turn on a wet road.

I'm good friends with a guy who repairs sports cars that people have wrecked one way or another. Porsche's rear engine cars often get smashed when drivers don't understand that the brakes aren't the way out of trouble (or maybe they should use a softer rear swaybar setting). While I have nothing against lots of people crashing their expensive sports cars, the 3.6 motor is far too nice to waste that way and they are in the end raising my insurance rates in the process.

[slowgoing]

Sandy, why'd you get an M3, and not a 328is?

Thanks for bringing back the fond memories of my long gone 328is! Although I would have bought an M3 if I could have afforded it.

[mikemets]

Drive my car for a few miles and let me know how you feel ;)

[Skrawny]

Coming into a sharp banked corner on highway 1 along the cost of California,
Downshifting and bliping the gas just enough to perfectly match the RPMs
Then my head pulling back as I accelerate out of the apex...

The satisfaction of a perfectly orchestrated corner,
The visceral sound and feel of a well made machine
(All within the speed limit)
Is what is so fun.

-s

[goonster]

A four cylinder turbo? I can't get behind that

I can. :rolleyes:

http://bringatrailer.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/1974_BMW_2002_Turbo_Front_Spoiler_and_Panasports_1 .jpg

[Viper]

I can. :rolleyes:

http://bringatrailer.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/1974_BMW_2002_Turbo_Front_Spoiler_and_Panasports_1 .jpg


:beer:

[dsteady]

Coming into a sharp banked corner on highway 1 along the cost of California,
Downshifting and bliping the gas just enough to perfectly match the RPMs
Then my head pulling back as I accelerate out of the apex...

The satisfaction of a perfectly orchestrated corner,
The visceral sound and feel of a well made machine
(All within the speed limit)
Is what is so fun.

-s

A perfect description of the joys of driving, all except that bit about the speed limit.
:D
dn'l

[rphetteplace]

A master who makes a surfboard for me, the board does make a difference.

A master who makes a bike frame for me, the frame does make a difference.

Driving? BMW's marketing offers the ultimate driving and Sandy owns an M3, end of story. Sandy owns an M3. Say it.

Driving is so much fun, they turned it into a sport. For me, I appreciate the craftsmanship BMW puts into their cars. Subaru may have corned a politcal, green, cycling machine, but until Subaru can eliminate the valve chatter/lifter noise of their engines, I'm out; I can hear a Subaru engine five miles away. That said, the Ru' WRX always looks fun.

What's so fun about driving? Fun can be interpreted several ways...knowing one's car is built safely, is green and gets 50mpg, has 300+HP or a combination of many elements.

What would Jonathon Livingston Seagull drive?

Dear Viper

This is what my Suby looks like. The car is amazing. The STI is for real.

[csm]

is that the dark grey? that is the color I have also. and it is the real deal. a bit pricey for a subie but worth every penny.

[Ti Designs]

A four cylinder turbo? I can't get behind that, it's disposable and a toy.


While I often call my black CRX (turbo+NOS) a toy, it's something you probably couldn't stay in front of on the track...

http://www.ti-designs.com/medusa/index.html

[rphetteplace]

is that the dark grey? that is the color I have also. and it is the real deal. a bit pricey for a subie but worth every penny.

Mine is black. I got it a little over a month ago on year end clearance. They were giving them away. $6500 under sticker with 0% financing for 63 months. I couldn't help my self. I was able to sell my 02 WRX wagon in 1 day for exactly what I asked for it. I was just amazed at the difference in the two vehicles. I thought the WRX was great, the STI is amazing.

Ryan

[csm]

mine is my work car... they said I could get whatever I wanted as long as it seated at least 4! it is quite a car.

[Charles M]

Some of the same things that make riding my bike fun make racing a morot bike fun and driving fast fun...


For every person that doesn;t get what makes driving fun their are a hundred (in North America at least) that don't get cycling.


Some one way more full of themselves than I would need to tell me how one person's passion is lesser than anothers.