OT: ideal winter car?

[Climb01742]

the recent 2+ feet of snow here got me thinking about vehicles. is there an ideal winter one out there? here's a wishlist/needlist:

all wheel drive
decent ground clearance
20+ mpg
big enough for a bike inside but otherwise, as small as possible
during the non-winter months, something that's at least a little fun to drive
reasonably affordable
have i missed anything?

does such a creature exist?

[David Kirk]

I bought a Mini a month back and you can't get a bike in it and it's only two wheel drive and 6" off the deck but it gets 32mpg in town and 37 on the highway and seems to go anywhere it's pointed. Traction and stability control are good inventions.

Really fun too.

dave

[93legendti]

My Volvo XC90 has been amazing in the deep snow that fell that last few days...Not sure about the mileage, but I know my wife and our babysitter both got stuck in their front wheel drive cars and I just powered thru the thick snow that stopped them.

Maybe the Volvo XC70 Cross Country get's better mileage? It is smaller than the XC90. I'm not sure small as possible is what you want for snow driving. I have done a lot of successful snow driving and mass (and momentum) is part of the equation.

When I was taking driving lessons, twice we had 10" snow storms and my instructor told me "our goal is not to get stuck. You keep moving no matter what. If an uncoming car is in our way, don't worry, it will move over. You keep going".

[TMB]

Front wheel drive and GOOD quality snow tires on all four corners.

The rest is noise.

[Louis]

Front wheel drive and GOOD quality snow tires on all four corners.

My solution too.

Acura Integra + Blizzak (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Blizzak+LM-18) snow tires.

[BumbleBeeDave]

My ex has one and loves it. Four wheel drive, plenty of room, not sure about the mileage. But Subies and Saabs seem to rule the roost over in Vermont.

BBD

[northbend]

Subaru Legacy Wagon - It has a longish wheelbase, and is underpowered in the non turbo form which makes it very hard to get yourself in trouble. Like a pickup truck, the older it gets the more useful it becomes. Mine gets about 23 mpg..

[David Kirk]

Front wheel drive and GOOD quality snow tires on all four corners.

The rest is noise.

if I was cool I'd say "word".

dave

[1centaur]

Why have traction on two wheels when you can have it on four? AWD with snow tires for me in the winter.

First thing I thought when I saw this thread was Subaru. As an added benefit, I've never seen a Republican bumper sticker on one :)

[CNY rider]

We live on a huge hill, small town road which may or may not be plowed at any given time in the winter.
There are two Subarus parked in the driveway and they are 100% reliable in getting us where we need to be.
The price is right, the performance is there.

[CNY rider]

Why have traction on two wheels when you can have it on four? AWD with snow tires for me in the winter.

First thing I thought when I saw this thread was Subaru. As an added benefit, I've never seen a Republican bumper sticker on one :)


Lesbarus with Bush stickers are few and far between........ :banana:

[saab2000]

Get a Volkswagen Rabbit and get winter tires - Blizzaks by Bridgestone. You don't need all-wheel drive if you have good winter tires. For real.

Enough room for a bike and nice to drive.

[toaster]

Lesbarus with Bush stickers are few and far between........ :banana:

What do you mean by saying bush sticker?

[cs124]

To state the bleedin' obvious...

move somewhere with nicer weather. :banana:

[markie]

I bought a Mini a month back and you can't get a bike in it

dave

You are not trying hard enough. Take off the front wheel and fold down the rear seats.

It'll go. Honest.

[David Kirk]

You are not trying hard enough. Take off the front wheel and fold down the rear seats.

It'll go. Honest.

No really it won't. If I pull both wheels and the seat post it will go but not otherwise. Keep in mind I ride a 63x61cm bike so the bike is big and the drivers seat is pretty far back.

I can get my BMX cruiser in there with only the front wheel off!

4 Blizzacks and it will pretty much go where you need to go. If there's a foot of snow on the road I don't NEED to go anywhere.

Dave

[Ti Designs]

This is kinda like one of the Serotta forum rides where everybody talks about the bike they're going to bring, but once the pedals start to turn it's all about the rider...

[csm]

my winter car is my subie sti with 17" winter tires/wheels. the ground clearance is a little low but so far so good.

[dsteady]

Get a pre 2009 Audi A4 Avant (wagon). They just redesigned the A4 line for '09 so you should be able to get a good deal on a used one prior to '08. They're very good in the snow, and YES you DO want all wheel drive if you can get it. They're also fun to drive on dry pavement. The '04-'08 2.0 liter engines get 28-30 mpg.

Blizzaks are great tires for the A4.

[rwsaunders]

Subaru Impreza....I'm looking at one for the next ride. AWD is not just for snow, but works as well in the rain. Blizzaks are the great equalizer, though. My wife's Odyssey van won't go in the snow without them.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2008/10/weekend-athle-2.html

[djg21]

the recent 2+ feet of snow here got me thinking about vehicles. is there an ideal winter one out there? here's a wishlist/needlist:

all wheel drive
decent ground clearance
20+ mpg
big enough for a bike inside but otherwise, as small as possible
during the non-winter months, something that's at least a little fun to drive
reasonably affordable
have i missed anything?

does such a creature exist?


The Audi Allroad is awesome but a little rough on gas. Add an ECU chip and its a monster. The A4 Avant is nice if you don't mind the auto tranny.

[dsteady]

The Audi Allroad is awesome but a little rough on gas. Add an ECU chip and its a monster. The A4 Avant is nice if you don't mind the auto tranny.

But the Tiptronic (which allows for a clutchless manual mode) gives you good control for slick mountain descents.

I agree the Allroad is awesome, and can be had at very reasonable S/H prices, but for the gas issues. I wish they'd bring the TDi version to the US.

[kipjac]

Get a Volkswagen Rabbit and get winter tires - Blizzaks by Bridgestone. You don't need all-wheel drive if you have good winter tires. For real.

Enough room for a bike and nice to drive.


Thass right.

[rphetteplace]

I just bought a Subaru STI and put Blizzaks on it. Most fun car ever! Turn off the traction control and lock out the center differential and holy cow it'll go sideways just looking at it. Everything back on normal mode and it goes through snow like a hot knife through butter. Gas mileage in town sucks, 23 on the highway.

[kipjac]

We live on a huge hill, small town road which may or may not be plowed at any given time in the winter.
There are two Subarus parked in the driveway and they are 100% reliable in getting us where we need to be.
The price is right, the performance is there.




Alot of the older model Subaru Legacys were notorious for head gasket failure, often immediately after the warranty period was up. The cost of repair ranged from $1200-2300

[lavi]

Ultimate driving machine my arse! :beer:

By the way, guess what happens in Portland when 2 feet of snow get dumped. Absolutely nothing. I think we have 1 plow in the entire city.

Good thing the red car to the left is an awd v70r. Nothing beats testing traction like turbo. It is possible to move sideways and forward at the same time!

[Louis]

Ultimate driving machine my arse! :beer:

Lavi,

FYI, the cars are supposed to go on the other side of the garage door. :p

And if the reason they are not in there is that there are bikes in the garage, that too is a no-no. Bikes belong in the house, not in the garage.

Louis

[haimtoeg]

Not a big snow expert, but another vote for the Imprezza, mine is a 5dr WRX.

[Ti Designs]

This is kinda like one of the Serotta forum rides where everybody talks about the bike they're going to bring, but once the pedals start to turn it's all about the rider...


And like the Serotta forum rides, the only way to get people to shut up about the bikes is to start turning the pedals. So, next snow storm, who in the Boston area is up for a little drive?

[Blue Jays]

"...cars are supposed to go on the other side of the garage door. And if the reason they are not in there is [because] bikes [are] in the garage, that too is a no-no. Bikes belong in the house, not in the garage..."Precisely what I was thinking! We're having fun at poor Lavi's expense. He will understand it's all out of love for bikes and cars! ;)

[goblue]

w/back seats folded fits my Legend SE w/out removing wheels! Really.

[GregL]

My wife recently replaced her Subaru Outback with an Element EX 4WD. She says she likes it much better in the snow than the Outback. As we have received 22+ inches of snow in the past three days (with 4-10" more expected before morning), I'll take her word on it...

Regards,
Greg

[bigbill]

Ford F150 Crew Cab 4X4 with 8 sixty pound bags of gravel in the bed. Here in the snowy PNW, it is the only vehicle that makes it up our steep road with 12 inches of snow. I doubt the mileage is that good right now. I drove to Santa Cruz from Seattle earlier this year and averaged right at 19 mpg. Bikes in the back or not, it averages around 19 mpg on the highway. Back in the mid to late 80's, I drove a honda accord that was an all-weather warrior. I drove it in upstate NY (Rock City Falls) for six months of winter weather. Good tires and front wheel drive will work in everything but deep snow.

[lavi]

We used to have the Suby Impreza wagon. It was great in the snow if not a little boring because I couldn't really get it out of shape. Using the ebrake was good fun tho.

Yes, the cars are not in the garage because the bikes live there! :beer: Actually, the german machine usually goes in the garage but with the recent storm, I thought I'd teach it a little lesson for being such a softy. It's the equivalent of taking a pampered roadie from San Diego and throwing them into a sloppy, cold cross race. If you treat your car like a pansy, it'll treat you like one. :)

I figured I'd get some comments...

[Climb01742]

To state the bleedin' obvious...

move somewhere with nicer weather. :banana:

mate, if only that were an option right now!!

[William]

I think I've got y'all beat. Best snow rig hands down....

Covers all your points....well, c'pt maybe gas mileage. :rolleyes:




William :)

[soulspinner]

For the $ new, I like the Toyota matrix awd. I have a 2wd with 4 snows and almost 80000 miles(wifes car) and its still has the original brakes and has been a great utility vehicle.

[Pete Serotta]

A 06 BMW M3. It does not like snow nor does it seem to go in the direction you want in snow...

BUT yes my bike fits in with the seat down and front wheel off :D


as to Mini S, even with a 57cm fame you need to take the wheels off to get it in... No I do not have one but I do lust one ;)

[cs124]

do you guys get the volkswagen tiguan (http://www.countrycars.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=56402) over there?

[TimD]

I know your weakness, Climb :)

[Vancouverdave]

Ideal snow car? Feet, and a Tri Met pass!

[thwart]

Older Audi A4, quattro, with snow tires. Can probably find one for around $10K. Only snow deep enough to hang it up on its chassis will stop it.

And it's fine with a 5 spd manual tranny, don't need no stinkin' Tiptronic.

[Ozz]

My Volvo XC90 has been amazing in the deep snow that fell that last few days......
...just make sure you get the AWD version! ;)

I saw an XC90 yesterday (brand new, still had the temporary license) stuck in a parking lot with just the front wheels spinning....sliding backwards and sideways.... :crap: :cool:

I'm sure driving skill (i.e. "lack of") accounted for much of the problem...but still.... :rolleyes:

My Honda Pilot does just fine....gets about 20 mpg on the highway....15 mpg around town. I have not had a problem at all getting around the past week or so in our rare snowfall here in Bellevue / Seattle.....

PS - saw a funny sight yesterday...a Postal Delivery truck...and the Post Office tow truck were both stuck in front of my house yesterday. So much for "through rain, snow, wind, ..."

It would have been funnier if they hadn't slid off the road and into my yard....their spinning tires really did a number on my lawn. :crap:

[93legendti]

...just make sure you get the AWD version! ;)

I saw an XC90 yesterday (brand new, still had the temporary license) stuck in a parking lot with just the front wheels spinning....sliding backwards and sideways.... :crap: :cool:

I'm sure driving skill (i.e. "lack of") accounted for much of the problem...but still.... :rolleyes:

My Honda Pilot does just fine....gets about 20 mpg on the highway....15 mpg around town. I have not had a problem at all getting around the past week or so in our rare snowfall here in Bellevue / Seattle.....

PS - saw a funny sight yesterday...a Postal Delivery truck...and the Post Office tow truck were both stuck in front of my house yesterday. So much for "through rain, snow, wind, ..."

It would have been funnier if they hadn't slid off the road and into my yard....their spinning tires really did a number on my lawn. :crap:
Yes, AWD, it goes without question!

[David Kirk]

It seems to me that this is like anything else - a compromise and one needs to decide what is most important to them. Being able to drive in deep snow is certainly nice but realistically how often do you need to drive in really deep snow? I live in a place famous for winter and on the rare occasion when it really snows hard and deep leaving the roads buried in the morning I stay home or wait a bit until the plows have come by. If it's snowed that hard then wherever I was going probably isn't open anyway. So having a vehicle that is biased toward driving in deep snow would given me only a marginal advantage on a few select days a season.

So in my opinion if you have real winter like most folks with a few days a season where it's deep you'd be better off addressing the other priorities you have like being able to get a bike in the back and being fun to drive and to get good mileage. While a SUV/truck with lots of ground clearance would be great one those very few days a year is it going to be fun to drive the other 362 days a year. I can say for sure that none of the tall vehicles that can be had are no where near as fun to use and drive on a daily basis as a good sport wagon or hatchback.

I played hooky yesterday morning and drove the Mini up the hill to Bridger Bowl to make some turns. I pulled into the park spot and a guy next to me in a rented SUV asked me if the Mini has 4 wheel drive. I told him no and asked why. His response was "well how did you make it up here?". The roads were snow covered as they are from November to March here but not at all difficult conditions. He was mystified on how I made it up to the ski area in that lil' car. If it's not silly deep a car will be better than an SUV all day long in slippery conditions.

The stump is free for whomever wants it next.

dave

[chuckroast]

We run the spectrum....

My wife and I have Jeeps, she a Liberty, me a Grand Cherokee and they are both unstoppable under any conditions.

My son though, is driving my Mercury Grand Marquis on loan and I am surprised by how Traction Control renders that a fairly capable snow car. It's a big american rear drive sedan but I never got it stuck and so far neither has he. Just gotta be patient and let the TC do its job but of course if the snow reaches the underside, game over.

Oh, and all three swallow up bikes.

[Viper]

It's all about the tires. I have rear wheel drive auto with Goodyear Eagle Ultra Grips. If I can't get through what I need to, then I don't need to be on the road.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=W&VT=C

:beer:

[Climb01742]

It seems to me that this is like anything else - a compromise and one needs to decide what is most important to them. Being able to drive in deep snow is certainly nice but realistically how often do you need to drive in really deep snow? I live in a place famous for winter and on the rare occasion when it really snows hard and deep leaving the roads buried in the morning I stay home or wait a bit until the plows have come by. If it's snowed that hard then wherever I was going probably isn't open anyway. So having a vehicle that is biased toward driving in deep snow would given me only a marginal advantage on a few select days a season.

So in my opinion if you have real winter like most folks with a few days a season where it's deep you'd be better off addressing the other priorities you have like being able to get a bike in the back and being fun to drive and to get good mileage. While a SUV/truck with lots of ground clearance would be great one those very few days a year is it going to be fun to drive the other 362 days a year. I can say for sure that none of the tall vehicles that can be had are no where near as fun to use and drive on a daily basis as a good sport wagon or hatchback.

I played hooky yesterday morning and drove the Mini up the hill to Bridger Bowl to make some turns. I pulled into the park spot and a guy next to me in a rented SUV asked me if the Mini has 4 wheel drive. I told him no and asked why. His response was "well how did you make it up here?". The roads were snow covered as they are from November to March here but not at all difficult conditions. He was mystified on how I made it up to the ski area in that lil' car. If it's not silly deep a car will be better than an SUV all day long in slippery conditions.

The stump is free for whomever wants it next.

dave

dave, did you think about a VW GTI? it has many of the same traits as a mini, with two differences i see: mini gets better MPG but the GTI has a better reliability record. how did you settle on the mini?

[Auk]

1990 Audi 200TQW with Hakka snows. Insanity was the word most commonly heard from those in the car. It had a locking rear dif up to 15mph (higher if you installed a override switch). I once pulled a van out of a snow bank with it. Those in the van were heard prior to saying "Yeah, right". Afterwards, the words were more like "HOLY CRAP!"

That aside, the older Toyota Landcruisers (FJ 60's and 80's) were damn near unstoppable in snow. Great clearance, multiple locking dif options, and a heater that would roast your shins.

[William]

That aside, the older Toyota Landcruisers (FJ 60's and 80's) were damn near unstoppable in snow. Great clearance, multiple locking dif options, and a heater that would roast your shins.



Just for fun I drove my 60 through the field on our property. 1.5 to three feet of snow on undulating terrain....never got stuck once....and you're right...the heater is a blast furnace once it's warmed up.



William

[David Kirk]

dave, did you think about a VW GTI? it has many of the same traits as a mini, with two differences i see: mini gets better MPG but the GTI has a better reliability record. how did you settle on the mini?

I did consider the VW briefly and I drove a few of different vintages. I chose the Mini for a few reasons.

* the MINI is a much better handling car. I might go as far as saying it's the best handling front wheel drive car shy of the 1992 Lotus Elan. Handling is near the top of the list for me.

* the reliability record of the VW is not very good. I have a Passat and it was wonderful for the first 90K miles but then all hell broke loose and I've spent $5G on it in the past few years and it's still not really fully "right".

* the local VW dealer is a crook and getting a deal done or warrantee work done is sketchy at best. There is a local guy with a private garage that specializes in BMW's and he's very comfortable with the MINI. I trust him the do any work I can't do. The VW dealer not so much.

* The MINI has much more driver room and fits me better. In the VW my head is nearly against the roof and in the MINI I have much more head room. There is also more leg room in the MINI. There is no way I can even get in the VW with a driving helmet on and there is lots of room in the MINI. I think I might do a few autocross events in the MINI and there is no way I personally could do that in the VW.

* Lastly - the overall design is uber-important to me. I like to feel like I'm surrounded by good and clever design and not a design that was meant to not make waves. The MINI design, both aesthetic and mechanically, is clever and innovative. The suspension is phenomenal, the transmission has the perfect touch, the packaging overall is just wonderful, and I even like the way it looks. To me the VW is a middle of the road, meant to appeal somewhat to everyone type of vehicle whose handling is safe but uninspiring (very understeery). It also feels heavy and soft to me. I like a car that has a delicate feel and balance like a good bike.

Probably more than you wanted to know - sorry.

dave

[slowgoing]

The Audi A3 looks great and seems to fit the bill, including good mileage. Good crash results too.

[Climb01742]

I did consider the VW briefly and I drove a few of different vintages. I chose the Mini for a few reasons.

* the MINI is a much better handling car. I might go as far as saying it's the best handling front wheel drive car shy of the 1992 Lotus Elan. Handling is near the top of the list for me.

* the reliability record of the VW is not very good. I have a Passat and it was wonderful for the first 90K miles but then all hell broke loose and I've spent $5G on it in the past few years and it's still not really fully "right".

* the local VW dealer is a crook and getting a deal done or warrantee work done is sketchy at best. There is a local guy with a private garage that specializes in BMW's and he's very comfortable with the MINI. I trust him the do any work I can't do. The VW dealer not so much.

* The MINI has much more driver room and fits me better. In the VW my head is nearly against the roof and in the MINI I have much more head room. There is also more leg room in the MINI. There is no way I can even get in the VW with a driving helmet on and there is lots of room in the MINI. I think I might do a few autocross events in the MINI and there is no way I personally could do that in the VW.

* Lastly - the overall design is uber-important to me. I like to feel like I'm surrounded by good and clever design and not a design that was meant to not make waves. The MINI design, both aesthetic and mechanically, is clever and innovative. The suspension is phenomenal, the transmission has the perfect touch, the packaging overall is just wonderful, and I even like the way it looks. To me the VW is a middle of the road, meant to appeal somewhat to everyone type of vehicle whose handling is safe but uninspiring (very understeery). It also feels heavy and soft to me. I like a car that has a delicate feel and balance like a good bike.

Probably more than you wanted to know - sorry.

dave

thank you, dave. as always, a well thought out answer -- and purchase!

[znfdl]

Subaru Forester.

[Lost Weekend]

Lexus rx 350 AWD with good tires. We drive it to Tahoe often in the winter with no problems. A bike wil fit in the back if you lay it down and remove the front wheel.

[dancinkozmo]

I had an AWD Saab 92X that was a terrific winter car...its basically a re-badged Subaru Impreza wagon, but nicer styling..mine had a moon roof and heated seats...really regret letting it go, unfortunately theyre pretty tough to find used nowadays ....

[marle]

It's all about the tires. I have rear wheel drive auto with Goodyear Eagle Ultra Grips. If I can't get through what I need to, then I don't need to be on the road.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=W&VT=C

:beer:

+1..I drive a 2002 BMW 325i rear wheel drive with 4 Blizzaks and a 5 speed in NY

[dsteady]

So in my opinion if you have real winter like most folks with a few days a season where it's deep you'd be better off addressing the other priorities you have like being able to get a bike in the back and being fun to drive and to get good mileage. While a SUV/truck with lots of ground clearance would be great one those very few days a year is it going to be fun to drive the other 362 days a year. I can say for sure that none of the tall vehicles that can be had are no where near as fun to use and drive on a daily basis as a good sport wagon or hatchback. . . .

dave

Agreed. When I lived in Chicago I had the choice of a Toyota 4-Runner and the Audi A4 for winter driving. Except for when I needed to bust through a big berm of snow that the plows had created in the alley I always chose the Audi.

BTW, my cousin lives in Bridger Canyon (the last driveway below Bridger Bowl) and for years he drove a late 90's A4 with Blizzaks.

dn'l

[dsteady]

The Audi A3 looks great and seems to fit the bill, including good mileage. Good crash results too.

Doesn't yet come with AWD, but that may not matter to the OP.

[rwsaunders]

I had an AWD Saab 92X that was a terrific winter car...its basically a re-badged Subaru Impreza wagon, but nicer styling..mine had a moon roof and heated seats...really regret letting it go, unfortunately theyre pretty tough to find used nowadays ....

My neighbor refers to his as a Saabaru.

[endosch2]

I had an A4 Avant Wagon (2000) for four years - no doubt the best car I have ever driven in snow - because of a growing family and 7 passenger seating we sold it and bought a Toyota 4 runner. Even in 4WD I would take the Audi any day of the week.

The fun to drive in summer part the Audi wins hands down.

[Tom Kellogg]

Easily takes four bikes plus extra wheels. As long as you have Blizzak tires, they drive like tanks in the snow. If you don't have snow tires, they are completely useless with more than a dusting on the roads. City driving;27. Highway;35. Cheers.

[OperaLover]

I had an A4 Avant Wagon (2000) for four years - no doubt the best car I have ever driven in snow - because of a growing family and 7 passenger seating we sold it and bought a Toyota 4 runner. Even in 4WD I would take the Audi any day of the week.

The fun to drive in summer part the Audi wins hands down.

2000A4 Avant 2.8 Quattro 5-speed with Blizzaks; like a tank! Performace tires for the summer!

Seattle is a mess and I feel like Katy in "Katy and the Big Snow" Chug! Chug! Chug!

Bikes fit in the back or on top and it is fun to drive!

[Louis]

I pulled into the park spot and a guy next to me in a rented SUV asked me if the Mini has 4 wheel drive. I told him no and asked why. His response was "well how did you make it up here?"

This is a reflection of the fact that many folks' intution is bad physics. They think that a big heavy vehicle is more likely get you up the hill, but don't realize that the extra friction force due to the heavy car is offset by the additional force of gravity pulling the heavy car down the hill. Weight might help keep you from sliding sideways, but won't do much good getting you up the hill. (Unless the purpose of the weight change is to shift the CG to place it over the driving wheels, in which case that will help some.)

Louis

[bigbill]

This is a reflection of the fact that many folks' intution is bad physics. They think that a big heavy vehicle is more likely get you up the hill, but don't realize that the extra friction force due to the heavy car is offset by the additional force of gravity pulling the heavy car down the hill. Weight might help keep you from sliding sideways, but won't do much good getting you up the hill. (Unless the purpose of the weight change is to shift the CG to place it over the driving wheels, in which case that will help some.)

Louis

That's why I have over 400 pounds of gravel in the back of my truck. Packed snow on steep hills are no problem but ice is ice, not much helps on that.

[deechee]

'91 rust bucket honda civic. Still going. I've never gotten stuck with this car, and we park it on the street. Last year the snowbank was higher than the car. If anything, the -20C temp is the only issue with the car since the car loses too much heat on the highway when its that cold.

Good tires, and good driving technique will keep you steady on the snow and ice. The only thing SUVs/AWD help with are acceleration; which people forget and they end up wrapping themselves around poles/sidewalks when they can't stop. Lets not forget the higher center of gravity SUVs have. I've seen some spin off the highway like true morons.

ps. xc volvo wagons get stuck too. last year an elderly couple were stuck in the alley behind our building because they tried to drive over a snowbank and the body ended up too high above the ground. I had to get under the car and dig.

pps. Another reason for a "light" car is that sometimes you need to "rock" the car back and forth and have someone help push the car out of a rut/ice trap. Light hatchbacks like our civic, and golfs are 100x easier to push than friggin sedans, or in my case, that immovable object of a volvo.

[fierte_poser]

This is a reflection of the fact that many folks' intution is bad physics. They think that a big heavy vehicle is more likely get you up the hill, but don't realize that the extra friction force due to the heavy car is offset by the additional force of gravity pulling the heavy car down the hill. Weight might help keep you from sliding sideways, but won't do much good getting you up the hill. (Unless the purpose of the weight change is to shift the CG to place it over the driving wheels, in which case that will help some.)

Louis

I drive a 1999 BMW 528i Touring with 15" Blizzaks during the winter months. With the 5-speed manual and traction control it gets me around Northern Colorado quite nicely. I don't drive in the mountains very often, but I am confident I would have no issues driving over most any mountain pass.

I wouldn't want to add weight to the back end. More weight in back would help get me going from a dead stop but it would also upset the weight distribution F/R and would make the handling less balanced.

IMHO, extra weight is only useful in getting you started from a dead stop. Once you are in motion, extra weight is simply extra momentum that will prevent you from accelerating, decelerating, or cornering at max efficiency.

Having said that, sometimes it can seem like 'big' cars/SUVs drive better on snow and ice. That extra mass 'feels' nicer under you, but I know from the physics point of view that I would be better off in my lighter, RWD station wagon.

[David Kirk]

IMHO, extra weight is only useful in getting you started from a dead stop. Once you are in motion, extra weight is simply extra momentum that will prevent you from accelerating, decelerating, or cornering at max efficiency.

Having said that, sometimes it can seem like 'big' cars/SUVs drive better on snow and ice. That extra mass 'feels' nicer under you, but I know from the physics point of view that I would be better off in my lighter, RWD station wagon.

thanks for this. It needs to be said loud.

dave

[Climb01742]

i have a lexus rx400h now. it's handled the snow well. it's gone through a foot+ of unshoveled snow in our driveway with surprising ease. it gets 30+ mpg. gobbles up a bike easily with both wheels on. but, dang it's soooooooooooooooo boring to drive. the lease is up sorta soon. hence the daydreamin', but the last few days have added a wintry layer of reality to my daydreams. whatever comes next, it's gotta be fun. please, dear god, be fun. if lexus has pursued perfection, who knew perfection was so boring???

[fierte_poser]

My ranking of cars:

BMW = the pinnacle of driving + not so great engineering (idrive, lack of oil dipstick) ... then again ... hard to go anywhere but down after the E46 M3 CSL and the E39 M5.

Honda/Acura = fun to drive + top notch engineering

Mercedes = not as boring to drive as a Lexus + not so great engineering

Toyota/Lexus = boring to drive + top notch engineering

VW = nice cars but seriously questionable reliability

Audi = AWD is always better mantra is tough to stomach + questionable reliability + understeering pigs (there is no way to make a car _not_ understeer when the entire mass of the engine is ahead of the front axle) ... but the R8 is sexy

Mazda/Nissan = 1 step down in terms of engineering

Subaru = 1 step down in terms of engineering and AWD is always better mantra is tough to stomach

Volvo = boring but safe ... OTOH aren't all cars safe these days?

Kia/Hyundai = less money

Mitsubishi/Suzuki = 1.5 steps down in terms of engineering

[slowgoing]

Climb - I was in your shoes a few years back. Bad crash in a '93 Mazda RX-7 twin turbo so I bought a Camry. After a year I couldn't take it anymore. Bought a BMW and haven't looked back. If you're looking for something that will never be boring, get a BMW 335xi. Fiendishly fast, plus AWD. Or a 328xi, which also comes as a wagon. Life is too short to drive boring cars.


i have a lexus rx400h now. it's handled the snow well. it's gone through a foot+ of unshoveled snow in our driveway with surprising ease. it gets 30+ mpg. gobbles up a bike easily with both wheels on. but, dang it's soooooooooooooooo boring to drive. the lease is up sorta soon. hence the daydreamin', but the last few days have added a wintry layer of reality to my daydreams. whatever comes next, it's gotta be fun. please, dear god, be fun. if lexus has pursued perfection, who knew perfection was so boring???

[PoppaWheelie]

w/back seats folded fits my Legend SE w/out removing wheels! Really.

I grew up and learned to drive in Ottawa, Montreal and northern Vermont in a string of rusty VW's and Hondas...all equiped in winter with studded Hakki's. I used to share the view that all you EVER needed was a good set of snow treads and a little common sense. A few years ago though we bought a used X3 (2.5) and I put a set of nice snow treads on for winter...and was blown away. I've driven around Tahoe in that car with snow up to the front grille and it didn't even seem to notice. Good traction control and handling aren't critical to getting around in the snow, but they sure help! The X3 isn't miserly on gas (I seem to see about 24-26 on the highway) but the styling is pretty nice and the road manners are better than any of the wagons or small SUV's that we test drove.

[Karin Kirk]

I did consider the VW briefly and I drove a few of different vintages. I chose the Mini for a few reasons....

This is all well and good, but allow me to add how CUTE the combination of Dave + Mini is! When we go to the drive through at the bank, all the girls rush over to swoon and Dave gets extra lollipops.

[rwsaunders]

This is all well and good, but allow me to add how CUTE the combination of Dave + Mini is! When we go to the drive through at the bank, all the girls rush over to swoon and Dave gets extra lollipops.

Please clarify Karin...lollipops or doggie treats? :cool:

[Ahneida Ride]

My wife recently replaced her Subaru Outback with an Element EX 4WD. She says she likes it much better in the snow than the Outback. As we have received 22+ inches of snow in the past three days (with 4-10" more expected before morning), I'll take her word on it...

Regards,
Greg


Yup ... Honda element .... 4WD goes anywhere ... plenty of room too
for 2 bikes ...

20-25 miles / gal

get the stick version for some fun ...

I'd buy another ...

[1centaur]

I would not have said Subaru if climb had not said reasonably priced. It's not like he was trying to avoid $85k cars. BMW and Audi do not qualify as reasonably priced in this competition. They do hit the fun to drive quotient, and that's the see-saw of this thread.

Honda Element appeals as a bike carrier, but I don't think it hits fun to drive like a peppy sedan/coupe with some carrying room.

BTW my last two cars were Acuras and Super-Handling AWD is a blast - it takes exit ramps unlike anything I've driven and is very sure footed in the snow (with Blizzaks).

Lexus - I tried to like them (styling by Fred), test drove one once and it made sure I accelerated onto a California freeway at the speed its chip liked best - smooth and languid. Uh, no.

[Louis]

This is all well and good, but allow me to add how CUTE the combination of Dave + Mini is!

Awwwwww - how sweet ;)

[Climb01742]

I would not have said Subaru if climb had not said reasonably priced. It's not like he was trying to avoid $85k cars. BMW and Audi do not qualify as reasonably priced in this competition. They do hit the fun to drive quotient, and that's the see-saw of this thread.

that is the rub. for $40-50k, the options increase a lot. go above $60k and porsche is coming close to rewriting the laws of physics. of course, above $40k, one gets picky and for that coin, that seems fair. you also get into a trade-off of fun/performance and MPG. the fun-er, the thirstier they are. getting it all in one package isn't easy. something's gotta give. fun and AWD seem essential. price may have to go up some and MPG come down some. thank heavens mrs climb is understanding.

[Erik.Lazdins]

Despite having an all wheel drive Pilot in the garage - the first car I drove, a 1978 rabbit with 80 series 13 inch tires was terrific in the snow

edit - I had a 1984 Rabbit GTI - nowhere near as good in the snow, but not bad yet, with 14 inch 60 series tires

I also had a 1990 Corrado - the worst VW I've had in the snow - it had 15 inch 50 series tires

[1centaur]

Addendum - I looked at Audi's before going for Acura 2, and did not like the low undercarriage (4" on an A4). I've seen what happens around here when a vehicle is high-centered on deep snow.

[Louis]

that is the rub. for $40-50k, the options increase a lot.

More money always gets you more options. The question is whether or not there are better ways to spend that money.

I guess it's the same thing for bikes. We each draw the line at whatever level we feel is appropriate.

[slowgoing]

If you spend some time, you can find used 2007 or so BMW 328 xi wagons with about 10k miles for about 25-27k. I thought that was reasonable, especially if it's certified for 6 years, 100k total.

that is the rub. for $40-50k, the options increase a lot. go above $60k and porsche is coming close to rewriting the laws of physics. of course, above $40k, one gets picky and for that coin, that seems fair. you also get into a trade-off of fun/performance and MPG. the fun-er, the thirstier they are. getting it all in one package isn't easy. something's gotta give. fun and AWD seem essential. price may have to go up some and MPG come down some. thank heavens mrs climb is understanding.

[MerckxMad]

The auto that is the most fun to drive in the winter (dry, snow, or muck) with your bike in the trunk is the BMW X3. Fast, grippy, enough ground clearance for the deep stuff and just big enough to carry your Serotta. Plus it comes with the Bavarian roundel on the hood. Add a radfahrer vanity plate, and your good to go.

[goblue]

Lots of fun...Premium stereo is strong.

[rex]

M1A2 Abrams

[Louis]

M1A2 Abrams

What's the GPM ?

[PoppaWheelie]

BMW and Audi do not qualify as reasonably priced in this competition. They do hit the fun to drive quotient, and that's the see-saw of this thread.



We bought our X3 used off a dealer lot with 5k miles on the odo for far less than a new Passat or Outback would have cost (we looked...) new....that certainly seemed reasonable to us given what the other options were. We paid well under $30k for a loaded demo and got 1.7%....

I'm sure they're pretty deeply discounted right now...

[dvancleve]

I drove through 7 Anchorage AK winters with FWD and snow tires. If the snow wasn't too deep or rutted, it worked pretty well. I got a Subaru when I moved to OR, go figure. I have only had my Subarus in snow a few times, but even with decent all weather tires they are clearly superior. As for SUV vs. AWD car/crossover, clearly an SUV will be better in truly bad conditions, but it will be worse in anything less than that.

Doug

[Climb01742]

If you spend some time, you can find used 2007 or so BMW 328 xi wagons with about 10k miles for about 25-27k. I thought that was reasonable, especially if it's certified for 6 years, 100k total.

yes. we got the mrs a used 04 328x wagon about a year ago. she digs it. so far, so good in the snow. can't do the really deep stuff but hey, it's not intended to. for fun in good weather, it's a bit underpowered, so your suggestion of the 335xi is resonating. the new diesel bimmers might be interesting to test drive but while their mpg might be enticing, hard to imagine they could get close to the smiles-per-mile of that twin turbo 335.

if only money and garage space were unlimited...a two vehicle solution...acura rdx for snow...and a lotus exige s for sun (0-60 in 4.1 and 26mpg!) ah dreams. :beer:

[slowgoing]

the new diesel bimmers might be interesting to test drive but while their mpg might be enticing, hard to imagine they could get close to the smiles-per-mile of that twin turbo 335.

I think you might be surprised by the diesel. OK, listed 0-60 time is 6.0 compared to 5.3 or so for the 335i (which apparently is very conservative, with some reviews listing it as 4.9), but the 335d has so much torque that it only comes with an automatic transmission. That sounds bad if you're a stick guy like me, but in reality it's good - they couldn't find a manual trasmission that was stout enough to handle all of that torque. So that's a lot of torque! I think I would like to be feeling some of that low rpm torque of the 335d more than I'd really be making use of the better acceleration time of the 335i. Haven't driven the diesel (is it even out yet in the US?), but plan to.

[dsteady]

. . . BMW and Audi do not qualify as reasonably priced in this competition. They do hit the fun to drive quotient, and that's the see-saw of this thread.



Don't you think that is for the OP to judge? S/H Audis and Subarus can be very reasonable and reliable, particularly the Certified Audis?

[dsteady]

that is the rub. for $40-50k, the options increase a lot. go above $60k and porsche is coming close to rewriting the laws of physics. of course, above $40k, one gets picky and for that coin, that seems fair. you also get into a trade-off of fun/performance and MPG. the fun-er, the thirstier they are. getting it all in one package isn't easy. something's gotta give. fun and AWD seem essential. price may have to go up some and MPG come down some. thank heavens mrs climb is understanding.

The diff in price, and therefore, value between Subaru and Audi becomes more apparent after 30-40K miles. I've owned each. The Audi will still be quiet in year 4.

Performance wise though, Subaru makes a great car.

daniel

[Louis]

FWD (and some luck) paid off last night. The only entrance to my subdivision is a very steep hill (avg 15%, peaks out in spots at 20%). Yesterday afternoon we had some freezing rain and temps around 32*. As I drove home the highways and nearly all the surface streets were fine, but as I got closer to home things seemed to be getting worse. A few miles away on a semi-steep downhill with a gentle right near the bottom I saw an SUV abandoned on the left side of the road. It hadn't been able to slow down for the right and just kept going into the ditch. Nobody in sight.

So I kept going and just as I got to the turnoff into my subdivision I see the guy we've hired to salt and plow the roads (they're "private", so we have to take care of it ourselves) turning in. As I turn in I see that both of the little parking areas at the bottom of the hill are full of cars parked there by folks who were unable to make it up. About ten cars total. They just parked and walked up or hitched a ride with someone who was able to make it up. I look up the hill and halfway there is a car off to the side in the ditch.

So the plow cranks up the salt dispenser and manages to make it up the hill. I check out the conditions on foot and find that there are some wet spots and some compacted ice spots. I decide to take my chances and make it up with essentially no problems. Had I tried and hour or two earlier it would have been a different matter.

L

[Ti Designs]

that is the rub. for $40-50k, the options increase a lot. go above $60k and porsche is coming close to rewriting the laws of physics. of course, above $40k, one gets picky and for that coin, that seems fair. you also get into a trade-off of fun/performance and MPG. the fun-er, the thirstier they are. getting it all in one package isn't easy. something's gotta give. fun and AWD seem essential. price may have to go up some and MPG come down some. thank heavens mrs climb is understanding.

As my New Year's resolution is to show the world that it's not about the bike (or car in this case), next time it snows let's go for a little drive. You can bring anything you want, I'll drive my 20 year old CRX with Blizzaks...

[39cross]

That's why I have over 400 pounds of gravel in the back of my truck. Packed snow on steep hills are no problem but ice is ice, not much helps on that.I like to throw TI Designs in the back of the car, same diff. Then I pretend I'm driving like he cycles.

[Jason E]

I am 4 months into my Certified P-O Audi Avant. I have a 2006 quattro, 2.0T, but with the manual 6 speed. It is a blast. We've gone to the mountains a few times and it is a perfect blend of fun and capable.

The bike has to go on the roof if the whole fam and luggage is coming, but for everyday, it is fantastic.

And on the trip from here to Wilmington, I get 33.5 mpg with the Cruise on.

Boone and back my mileage was 32+. This does not count the tank of gas I blasted around town with while we were there.

I did have a Jeepster Commando that would get 25 hwy, but it could not go over 55 and had a lot of "character".

Happy Holidays, everyone.

[quansoo]

Audi Allroad 6 speed stick with winter tires.

[93legendti]

http://comcast.vehix.com/automotive/Article.aspx?artid=15B000000000049&cid=442

[majorpat]

M1A2 Abrams

Hey! That was my "car" for a few years (it's an M1A1 by the way).

In fact, and this is from experience on the ranges at Ft Drum in the winter months, tanks are kind of lousy in the snow and ice, they slide like a 68 ton hockey puck.

MPG is actually gallons per mile but plenty of room for bikes and gear (and ammo).

Pat

[andy mac]

I have a 6cyl Subaru Outback that i really can't fault.

Hammers if need be, space, never had a problem.

Or...!!! :beer:

[andy mac]

Climb, the great man gave us the answer years ago...

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=z-qUh3a3Fpc

:beer:

[andy mac]

Despite having an all wheel drive Pilot in the garage - the first car I drove, a 1978 rabbit with 80 series 13 inch tires was terrific in the snow

edit - I had a 1984 Rabbit GTI - nowhere near as good in the snow, but not bad yet, with 14 inch 60 series tires

I also had a 1990 Corrado - the worst VW I've had in the snow - it had 15 inch 50 series tires

hmmm... have you ever considered it was your tires...??

ever seen a WRC rally in the snow and what they run? thinner is better.

[soulspinner]

hmmm... have you ever considered it was your tires...??

ever seen a WRC rally in the snow and what they run? thinner is better.


+1