Why doesn't Serotta bring back the Hors Categorie?

[John M]

Seems that everyone raves about the ride and if a used one comes up for sale, it is gone instantly. Why doesn't Serotta bring it back to the line. Seems that the market would be much bigger for the HC than for something like the Mevici TT frame.

[Smiley]

The rear end cost alot to make , I mean alot to make and that was from the alignment stand point. The new ST rear is a glued in piece that needs ZERO alignment as compared to what they went through for the DKS system.

I still crave a OTTROTT DKS bike as this would have been the best of all worlds.

[Gothard]

There's more to that.
On this particular forum there is maybe 200 people who jump at every used Hors Cat that pops up, and don't mind paying up to 1600-1800-ish to own one.
If it were made new, it would cost easily double that, wiping out a significant number of interested people.
The same happened when the CSI was the subject of a revival attempt, not enough inerest to warrant getting that line up to speed.

I'll be the first to admit both that I will never sell my Hors, and that I would never pay today's full retail price for one.

It is the used bike deal of the century for this forum.

[David Kirk]

It's not actually true that it cost a lot from an alignment standpoint. The tooling was pretty straight forward and they went together pretty smoothly if the builder knew how to use the tools. There are however 3 things about it that are expensive -

* rear dropouts - these used to be specific to the Hors but I think the final version of the Hors drop was used on other models also so this might no apply.

* seat stay bending - this was done out of house on bending equipment Serotta didn't have and that was too pricey to buy just for the Hors. I'll bet this is still the case.

* the elastomers - these were made locally for Serotta by a company that specializes in high-tech silicone parts. The silicone material itself was silly expensive and the molding of a low volume part was equally spendy. That coupled with the fact that there were 3 hardnesses available meant a lot of carrying cost for a slow moving part. I think it could be redesigned so that one could use a single hardness part to cover everyone and this would cut down cost a good bit. I had started down that road when the model was ended.


In the end the real reason it was axed is that it didn't sell and I think it didn't sell because most of the sales folks (both at Serotta and at the retail level) at the time didn't know, or care, how it worked. The in-house folks got paid on commission and felt it was a waste of time explaining the Hors when they could just take an order for a straight up Legend and get onto the next order. I think if the bike was developed further and properly marketed it would be a profitable item. It just depends on how the sales/marketing is handled. It's still a great ride. I wish I still had mine.

dave

[Smiley]

It's not actually true that it cost a lot from an alignment standpoint. The tooling was pretty straight forward and they went together pretty smoothly if the builder knew how to use the tools. There are however 3 things about it that are expensive -

* rear dropouts - these used to be specific to the Hors but I think the final version of the Hors drop was used on other models also so this might no apply.

* seat stay bending - this was done out of house on bending equipment Serotta didn't have and that was too pricey to buy just for the Hors. I'll bet this is still the case.

* the elastomers - these were made locally for Serotta by a company that specializes in high-tech silicone parts. The silicone material itself was silly expensive and the molding of a low volume part was equally spendy. That coupled with the fact that there were 3 hardnesses available meant a lot of carrying cost for a slow moving part. I think it could be redesigned so that one could use a single hardness part to cover everyone and this would cut down cost a good bit. I had started down that road when the model was ended.


In the end the real reason it was axed is that it didn't sell and I think it didn't sell because most of the sales folks (both at Serotta and at the retail level) at the time didn't know, or care, how it worked. The in-house folks got paid on commission and felt it was a waste of time explaining the Hors when they could just take an order for a straight up Legend and get onto the next order. I think if the bike was developed further and properly marketed it would be a profitable item. It just depends on how the sales/marketing is handled. It's still a great ride. I wish I still had mine.

dave
Dave yours was already sold off by Flydhest, so no go there. Kelly told me aside from the tooling etc that you mentioned that these were a bitch to align due to the bent stays. Anyway I know your dead on about having to explain away how the technology worked to the common Joe. I loved mine and would buy a new version in an Ottrott in a NY minute. Its too bad.

[93legendti]

I wish people jumped at EVERY Hors. I've posted mine two times, for what I thought was a good deal, but no takers...it is a small size, 52cm TT..:(

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=31065&highlight=hors

[Smiley]

I wish people jumped at EVERY Hors. I've posted mine two times, for what I thought was a good deal, but no takers...it is a small size, 52cm TT..:(

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=31065&highlight=hors
TIMING and price, I wish I could have kept mine, truth is my newer Uniscasi FIT better and for me that was it. I felt better balanced on my new fit as opposed to my old Hors and yet if I could buy a new one today I would in an instant, no kidding.

It seems that the price point of bikes under $1400 do much better then over this price point. Try again while 2 have just been sold. Nothing to lose and actually Flydhest just sold D Kirks old frame a few months back and it was a 60 cm.

[93legendti]

TIMING and price, I wish I could have kept mine, truth is my newer Uniscasi FIT better and for me that was it. I felt better balanced on my new fit as opposed to my old Hors and yet if I could buy a new one today I would in an instant, no kidding.

It seems that the price point of bikes under $1400 do much better then over this price point. Try again while 2 have just been sold. Nothing to lose and actually Flydhest just sold D Kirks old frame a few months back and it was a 60 cm.

And size, as well as timing and price. Mine was/is:
Frameset with F1 fork, Shimano Ultegra threaded headset and Shimano BB (D/A or Ultegra..I can't remember) only--with original F1 fork: $1000 shipped...

[Ti Designs]

I thought it was the name. I had a hard time selling the bike 'cause I send people out on test rides, and the questions after the test ride would get uncomfortable - did you ride the whore?

[jl123]

I recently spoke to a mountain bike racer who has something similar to this...
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=205572

He says even with a fat mountain tire he does get some movement.

I know this is similar to the Terraplane. From what I understand there are no patents on these type bends- although I am not 100% sure- Mr. Kirk if you know please chim in.

Anyway from what I understand with both the chainstays bent and the seat-stays bent and with a (cherry) pivot on top it may be approaching DKS levels of travel. Of course I'd only know if I put up a very large amount of hard to come by $$- which is getting rarer by the minute. JL

[David Kirk]

I recently spoke to a mountain bike racer who has something similar to this...
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=205572

He says even with a fat mountain tire he does get some movement.

I know this is similar to the Terraplane. From what I understand there are no patents on these type bends- although I am not 100% sure- Mr. Kirk if you know please chim in.

Anyway from what I understand with both the chainstays bent and the seat-stays bent and with a (cherry) pivot on top it may be approaching DKS levels of travel. Of course I'd only know if I put up a very large amount of hard to come by $$- which is getting rarer by the minute. JL


The Serotta Hors cat does have a patent (Serotta owns the patent and I'm the inventor) but the Terraplane does not. So it's left up to folks paving their own way and inventing stuff on their own and not pooping where they eat.

I spoke (or tried to speak) with Wes a few years ago at the show and the fact that he couldn't make eye contact and wouldn't actually talk to me told me how he felt about his "borrowing" the idea.

Since there is no patent folks can steal stuff and it's not legally stealing. But legal and moral can be two different things and his lack of eye contact told me that he felt the same way I did.

Dave

[Smiley]

The Serotta Hors cat does have a patent (Serotta owns the patent and I'm the inventor) but the Terraplane does not. So it's left up to folks paving their own way and inventing stuff on their own and not pooping where they eat.

I spoke (or tried to speak) with Wes a few years ago at the show and the fact that he couldn't make eye contact and wouldn't actually talk to me told me how he felt about his "borrowing" the idea.

Since there is no patent folks can steal stuff and it's not legally stealing. But legal and moral can be two different things and his lack of eye contact told me that he felt the same way I did.

Dave
Wes is not building anymore ?

[David Kirk]

Wes is not building anymore ?

I don't know that he is or that he isn't. When I last saw him it was at NAHBS two years ago when he was showing that bike.

dave

[shanerpvt]

Wes is not building anymore ?

his website is still up.............same Wes, right?

http://www.willitsbikes.com/Willits.html

i wanted a Scorcher when they sold it as a bike........looked like a fun neighborhood bike.

I also thought it would be cool to have a bike built in the community I live, but now i think i would give True Fab my business if I was in the market for a mt bike.

http://www.truefabricationbicycles.com/

cheers,

shaner

[aosty]

I spoke (or tried to speak) with Wes a few years ago at the show and the fact that he couldn't make eye contact and wouldn't actually talk to me told me how he felt about his "borrowing" the idea.

Since there is no patent folks can steal stuff and it's not legally stealing. But legal and moral can be two different things and his lack of eye contact told me that he felt the same way I did.


Sincerest form of flattery?

Maybe he was shy? :)

Wes has made other curvey stay frames - quite a few years prior to the one linked above. Although that frame, and the frames shown at NAHBS 2007, are certainly more, er, Kirk-ish shaped. Perhaps it was the influence of Jared Porter (of Serotta), who joined Willits briefly during the same time period (late 2006-early 2007).

- springy Willits "B2" stays
- immaculate Kirk Terraplanes
- blingy Serotta DKS
- kitchy Hetchins from 1949 (http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~asa/Albums/bikes/tn/hetchins_1949_six_day_racer.jpg.html)

....are all sweet in my book and all are welcome in my garage!


:beer:

[texbike]

Wes is not building anymore ?

Wes is still building. In fact, there was an announcement that came out a few days ago on one of local Austin lists that stated that he was building again.

Did Wes cop the curved stay idea from a certain Montana builder? That I'm not sure of, but I do know that he has been building bikes for a LONG time. So long in fact, that he has to have experimented with curved stays way before the TerraPlane. Keep in mind that his focus was more on the MTB side of the sport which seems to encourage more innovation and design risk instead of the tried and true approach to custom road bikes.

If you visit his shop, it is easy to see that he has been tinkering around with unconventional design approaches for many, many years (there are quite a few examples laying/languishing around the shop to try out). Some seem to work well, and others.....well.....they can't all work, can they?

Regardless, kudos to Dave, Wes, and all those who push the envelope just a little bit further with their designs. Keep up the good work guys!

Texbike

[aosty]

Texbike -

Well put... and that's great news about Wes.

[jl123]

Well for something totally different here's another approach, maybe the simplist yet...a few cross-racers use them...

http://www.tonicfab.com/cx2.htm